Brick Johnny

Yo awesome link man. Gives a great glimpse into feed values.

Thank you

Alright, lack of resources, the majority of my academic reading comes from New Zealand yet there is still so much not covered, has led to some frustration.

When looking at a pasture based system being properly rotationally gazed with ruminants I see so much potential for more species diversity, higher feed values, improved animal health, drought tolerance & water retention, carbon sequestration, soil health and microbiological diversity; overall higher capture percentage of incoming energy which creates diversity and lowers the volatility of a system.

All of this can be achieved by incorporating fodder trees in the form of coppice, pollard, or mast/pod bearing.
Now this is a pasture with THE goal of raising animals, I'm not focused, in this conversation, on implementing a silvopasture for wood harvest but rather the previously mentioned beneficial potentials. With that said a silvopasture based system is not be overlooked when stacking functions on pasture.

Coppicing trees-
Poplar and Willow are the most commonly utilized varies. In my experience mulberry has proven to be  highly palatable for ruminants along with taking very well to the animals pruning and bark stripping, often responding with numerous shoots after a healthy resting period. This period of time I have yet to measure consistently.

Pollarding-
More time/labor inputs but potentially higher DM yields. I am more interested in not creating more time investment to maintaining pasture which makes coppicing a more desirable method. Although, on areas of ungrazable land large pollard trees can serve as a great addition for feed values.

Mast/pod bearing trees-
Since this is a pasture light penetration is pivotal to understory  growing success, where the majority of DM is derived. This rules out most, but not all, trees of mast bearing variety. Honey locusts are an amazing option in my opinion when placed in a pasture based setting due to their canopies which allow high amounts of light penetration(can't think of the term for that). Upon maturation, with a cultivar bred for pod production and nutrition, you are provided with copious amounts of late fall/winter forage( more practical for sheep as they can digest a higher percentage of the hard seeds). Shoots sprouting up from the mother trees are continuously grazed hence adding forage and never getting a foothold to harden it's spikes for protection. There are other great options but for my climate- zone 4- but honey locusts are of personal most interest. Fruit trees are another fabulous mast bearing option if properly protected.

So we put this all together-
A diverse understory with microclimates of partial shade allowing for further diversity along with a "Savannah"-esque planting of honey locusts with a larger number of poplar and willow coppice trees.

What are the draw backs to this?
More management meaning scaling becomes more difficult(50+ acres? 20 acres of this system is not that intensive to manage if done during animal rotations).
Need for permanent fencing infrastructure as electric netting is not practical in such a setting(from experience).
Potential for pasture degradation due to overshading if not properly managed.
If not equidistantly planted trees may hinder ability to drive machinery through as well as increasing the difficulty of removing coppiced non edible wood.

What are your thoughts? I didn't go into detail for each of the benefits mentioned in the beginning of the post as they are some what commonly known. If anybody has questions on those benefits be sure to ask for elaboration! If anyone sees other potential, or obvious, benefits be sure to share!

Surely we can find a pasture option that is widely applicable, perennial, practical and of immense benefit when compared to the traditional open meadow style of grazing. Yes, sheep are classified as grazers but I have observed mine head straight for the browse every chance they get.

I put up an 8 ft deer fence around my orchard this year. 2 acre pen. Cost me $1,700 in materials, everything new.

Installed it myself with one helper in 3 days.

Where does your 40k figure come from?

I have been looking out at a feild of 90% ragweed, 7 acres of it to be more precise. It has gone to seed and its reign over the land is coming to an end following the decline of its dominant life.

So the thought has occurred to me- why not just broadcast winter rye onto the field and see if it'll grow? So that's what i did! 200lbs an acre mixed with 150lbs(not an acre, total) of corn that slipped in at the elevator. My thought process was that the ragweed, again common not giant, would retain the moisture(good amount of rain recently) and the seeds would find their way to the bare dirt beneath and not be subject to the hungry birds, for the most part at least.

The corn will bring in the deer along with their soil disturbance, ragweed stem breaking/bending and fertilizer.

What are your thoughts? Will the rye grow this fall and fulfil its cover crop purpose? What could have possibly been done better(or worse)? If anyone says "incorporating seed with the soil" or "not letting the ragweed go to seed" be ye smitten!!

Kidding, I'm a lover not a smiter- but seriously.

Cast your opinions now and I will be sure to follow up with the results.

Great information everyone. I think it's only healthy to question even our most basic actions, such as grass in a pasture, to find legitimate reasoning behind why we do what we do.

While some plants may be more nutritious, you've got to have enough calories to keep the animals full and gaining weight

There are a vast number of plants that have a higher Feed Conversion Ratio than that of grasses while simultaneously producing more DM and being more nutrient dense.

But seriously, some great information presented here in a clear and concise manner. Kudos, everyone.

This question came to mind when I was doing some academic reading( http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-35982010001300019 ) on alternative forage options. I would like to see more trials for a greater range and accuracy of numbers however this system, as described in the research as a chicory, plantain and clover based pasture, is still rudimentary compared to a pasture with permaculture principles applied to it. I would love to see the same studies ran comparing pastures with permacultural concepts applied to create a high performance grazing system; being able to then identify, in numbers, "high performance". We have the knowledge and have applied the principles- too bad we don't have the lobbying for funds to throw some real numbers out there. Tangent closed.

Hello everyone!

I am currently planting part of my orchard and am looking for some honey locust seeds/cuttings. I will be planting 100 seeds collected from John Hershey's nursery however I am open to planting more cultivars(including those unknown). I am most interested in pod production and quality so if you have one of the well known cultivars for pod production I would be delighted to purchase some seed from you. Even better yet if someone has available cuttings for me to graft with!

I am located in Zone 3b so any trees grown further north are much more likely to thrive here.

I have resorted to this method of purchase due to the fact that the availability of known cultivars for sale in the US... doesn't really exist on a strong level. Yes, there are 1 or 2 sites online where you can buy potted 3 or 7 gallon trees but that is a PRICEY way to plant a large number of trees. I know there are other people that are looking for access to quality honey locust cultivars and have ended up like me; unable to find a viable option.

Maybe we could close that gap today and have a beneficial resource available for all?

Here is the best resource I have found so far and it took a bit of networking to find so enjoy: https://www.perfectcircle.farm/honeylocust/honey-locust-seed-special

I suppose this could be a terrible question because it's so obvious as to why. However, I just don't see it I guess. When you look at animal animal on pasture: Cattle, goats, horses, sheep, chickens ect ect ect we always have such a high percentage of grass in the pasture. Some pastures are even solely grass. Much more common is grass mixed with clover, alfalfa or another legume for it's added nutritional benefits depending on the animal grazing the pasture. You can go a step further and include a higher amount of legumes with diversities in species along with other "medicinals" like plantain, chicory, dandelion, kale, comfrey, chives ect and even go as far as including hints of the Lamiaceae family ie mint, basil, sage, rosemary.

But why is grass typically the staple? Why isn't chicory a staple? More nutritious than pasture grasses and similar DM yeilds/acre. Why not throw in a much higher percentage of the "medicinals" to fulfill more of an animals diet in place of grasses?

I do understand that in conventional agriculture grass is most likely used due the fact that it takes over everything else making it very easy to maintain your crop without re-seeding along with the combination of dumping N on a field for high yields.

Down sides to chicory, for example sake, would be that it's high nutritional value and 90% digestibility rapidly declines when the plants goes beyond the vegetative state into a bolting state. This has proven hard to keep chicory as a quality forage if it grows too fast- "Forage chicory can grow rapidly during the months of July and August when temperatures can exceed 90 degrees F".

So, what are your takes on it? Please, keep in mind I am not attempting to make this about chicory>grass for a pasture staple. Any other species could have their case argued; I just picked one of many for examples sake.. The main question at hand is what makes grass a more viable option than all the others?



If interested in chicory as a forage here is the article I was referring to throughout. https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/VME-31

My only fear with planting alfalfa is the cross-pollination with GM alfalfa as I know there are GM alfalfa fields all around my area. Maybe in 15 years I won't be so cautious, or maybe more cautious, towards GMOs. I think it's too early to come to conclusions so i'll stay clear for now. Otherwise the oats/alfalfa combination is a great idea. I am sure there are other alternatives as well.
I am excited to see what happens with the Sorghum-Sudangrass in the 4 acre front field. 8-10,000 lb OM/acre, extensive tap root system, when cut at 3-4ft tall back down to 6" the root system expands 5-8 times in mass. Sub soil aeration is ideal for all the compaction. How can one not be excited? I've never seen or heard of anyone in my area grow it before but hey, no harm in trying.  
I'll have to do some reading up on rainfall to evaporation ratios, thank you kindly for bringing that up. Your knowledge, along with everyone else, is more appreciated than I can express in words. Nonetheless- thank. you. In time this property is going to act as the platform for a non-profit with the goal of feeding the highest quality produce at no cost to under served impoverished Minneapolis(and other surrounding areas) families. The fact you guys are willing to give your time to help educate others along their journeys- I am humbled and genuinely grateful.

I must admit that I am but a hypocrite. I speak of not doing any "large earth work projects" for the first years yet I plan to build a strawbale house on the property next year. Different kind of earthwork but you get my drift. With that said the access points will be established to some extent.

Little more info-

Largest slope on the property is 6% max with most of the slope being at 1%. I am also ~30 feet to the water table at the highest point on the property which makes me wonder just how much of an impact water management systems will have.

On the topic of earthworks coming first. I agree with you and have heard similar things and also agree with the reasoning behind it. However, another suggested practice in permaculture is also sitting back for a couple years, if one can help it, and doing what I feel we all lack in more than anything else- observing. I would like to make minimal major impact in the first years and watch the property. Learn what nature has to show from/for this unique, like every other parcel, piece of land. Plus that takes off the stress of trying to do all these huge projects right away and regretting them 2 years down the line. Hence the idea of building soil through planting a perennial based system while we sit back and see what we see. Than possibly overgraze and over/re seed once the earth work decisions have been decided? I suppose there is no right or wrong way to go about it here. Thank you very much for your input Roberto!

I have read a few soil biology books however there is so much to remember that only some information sticks. Look forward to see what sticks when I get a chance to read through what redhawk was kind enough to share.

I've heard about using raw milk before and am definitely open to the idea granted there is a good local source.

So I recently bought 15 acres, central Minnesota, which I will begin working on come late winter. The current state of the soil is compacted and overall dead; what else is to be expected after decades of non-sustainable methods. Been in a corn/soybean rotation for decades with some years of hay. I am looking for advice, criticisms, or any thoughts in general on my current plan. I am going to take the back 9 acre field and plant it in polyculture pasture with the intentions of mob grazing sheep, goats, cattle, horses ect.. More importantly I want to convert it to a pasture to allow time for the soil and it's biology to recoup while accumulating carbon in comparison to letting it sit bare dirt(hurts enough knowing it sat bare dirt all winter long). I am looking for a perennially based system; minimizing the amount of annual species input each year.
This is my current species list:
Grasses-
   Sod- Kentucky Bluegrass & Smooth Brome. Reed Canary is a possibility however I am more interested in saving that for a wetter area hence creating more zones, plus in my experience with Reed Canary it is generally more invasive than I prefer.
   Bunch- Orchard, Timothy, Crested Wheat, Perennial Rye.
Other available warm season grasses to incorporate could be switch grass, big and little bluestem along with indian grass.  I am not educated on the nutritional or behavioral attributes of these.

Legumes-
   Red, white and crimson clover. Possibly sweet clover. Birdsfoot Trefoil.

Forbs & others-
  Plantain, Chicory, Dandelions, Sunflower, forage turnips(for first few years), rape, kale, comfrey along with chives and other onions, garlic?, and hints of the Lamiaceae family ie mint, basil, sage, rosemary.

Overall thoughts? The more diversity the better. I am interested in ratios as well. Why does a majority of the populous not plant more chicory and plantain > grasses for livestock forage. I've seen mixtures suggest as low as 5% for chicory dandelions and plantain which just doesnt compute in my mind given the option of having chicory as a foraging staple.

I am also all for planting willows and poplars for coppicing.  My topography would benefit from keylines or swales but im not sure how necessary it would be and that is something that can also always be done after establishing pasture species?

I will be getting a soil test and posting results here. Am leaning towards amending the soil with minerals depending on how tests come back.

The front 4 acre field will be planted in sorghum sadangrass along with a legume for the first year in preparation to plant a 4 acre fruit tree food forest the following year.

The middle portion will be left low, more likely than not partially dug out into a pond and used to take advantage of some more wetland species like creeping foxtail, plenty of cattails, reed canary grass, alsike clover and whatever comes up to throw in there.

The back wooded section is still up for debate. Would like to run pigs through there next year for some disturbance. Consists mostly of 40+ year old Aspen growth with a mixture of red and white pines and a few other evergreens, oaks, and maples.

Any feedback is appreciated. Thank you.