New guy with new Hydro project

Hello, I’ve been lurking here for years on and off and finally decided to join and share my new hybrid system with everyone here.
 I live on a secluded farm in the mountains on the east coast and have been researching micro hydro for years. With the current political environment my wife and I decided to pull the trigger on our hybrid system.  I. Have a very nice but seasonal stream that runs through our property and close to my house. I get upwards of 500 gpm in the fall/ winter/ spring with 60 ft. of head.  I should be able to make a max of right around 3k continuous power. Is also have 20 solar panels for right around 5k for when the hydro isn’t running in the summer. We just started our build so Nothing is up and running yet. I’m hoping to have it online by mid fall.
 Here is a rundown of all the equipment we bought so far.

2 -  Turgo Turbines custom built for my creek
1 -12k Schneider XP PRO Inverter
6-  LifePo 48v batteries with battery rack
1,000ft  of 8” schedule 40 pvc pipe
20 - 260w Solar panels
2- Coanda screens 24x24 ( had to buy 2 to meet the min spending limit )

So, my plan is to install the weir and coanda box asap since my creek is pretty close to dry. My plan is to also save money where I can so after looking at coanda boxes I decided to build my own out of concrete.  The price of a pre built one is insane. I formed up the proper sized box and poured it today. It looks like it should work just fine.
Once the weir is built I will start on the monumental task of burying the 1,000ft of pipe beside my creek. This should be fun since it’s very thick  woods and brush With rocks the size of an ATV.
 SO I will post some pics ( if I can figure out how )as we make progress. I just wanted to introduce myself and my project and please feel free to throw and and all advice my way. I’m certainly going to need it.

coanda box

Hello John, I loved that Land to House series. My system is a bit bigger than his though. I have to catch 500 gpm and I actually contacted Elgin about a coanda box. They quoted me a price of $6,000 ! So I decided to build my own.
It’s funny you posted that video, the guy that custom built his turbine also built mine.

I also got in touch with the guy who made this video. He is such a nice guy. He has helped me a ton with all the questions I had. He actually invited me to tour his system since he only live a few hours from me. I took him up on that offer. He and his wife are such nice people and his hydro system is top notch.

Hi Shawn;
Welcome to Permies!
This sounds like a super project!   Well thought out !
I've live with micro hydro / solar for 30 + years now,  I love it!
However my system is tiny compared to yours. My spring is year round though.

So  from 500 gpm to dry. Your stream is going underground during the hot months.
How long from full bore to no flow?  
How  will you control  your power output  from max and then as your pressure starts dropping with low/no water?
I need to reduce my nozzle size in the late fall for a couple of months.

Looking forward to many photo's and post's as you progress!

Early Congratulation's for removing yourself from the electric grid!
It's really fun when you go to town and all they can talk about  is how long their power was out over the weekend...
And you get to smile broadly and say  "OH ? Was the power out???
From your freinds you will get a wry grin and a muttered yeah yeah we KNOW the power was not out at your house!

Hello Thomas .
So my stream dries up in July and august. I shouldn’t say dries up , but slows way down to only a few gallons a minute. As far as how to control the power output,I have two turbines for 4 nozzles a piece. I will simply shut down nozzles and even shut down one turbine or even both of it dries totally. I also have 5 k of solar. Now that solar probably won’t power my whole house but my inverter allows me to “ blend” power from the grid if I m using more than I’m producing.
 I have a ton of work ahead of me and also A TON  of learning as I go. Please feel free to suggest any ideas you have along the way.

Wow Shawn:
Eight nozzles!  That's awesome,  I have one...
Lipo batterys , grid backup!   You are going to be smiling!

You mentioned selling power back to the power company any excess you create.
I suspect that your solar system has been up and running and hopefully you have a grid intertie agreement with them in place?

Do not tell them about your Hydro!  
Power company's are required to purchase  solar and wind power.
However they defiantly do not buy hydro power from an unlicensed micro hydro.

By law, any hydro system should be regulated , licensed and permitted to create power for public use.
They turn a blind eye  to us small personal users...
But the minute the power company gets involved  get ready for  red tape and paperwork.

No, My solar was actually an afterthought when I bought all my hydro equipment so it’s not installed yet either.
I’m not net metering any power back to the power company. As far as they knowI don’t have any alternative energy systems up here.
I am grid connected but not selling any back and only pull from the grid when needed. Which hopefully isn’t very often.
I heat my house ( log home ) right now with a coal boiler but going to go with a heat pump and use the power I produce in the winter to run that to heat the house.
In ideal conditions I should make close to 3kw continuous with the hydro in the winter and hopefully tan out 3k ish with the solar.
I would like to stress that I am in no way an expert in this field and learning as I go. So I may contradict myself once in a while as we go along. But that’s how you learn I guess.
I did get my Coanda screen today. Here is a pic of it on my box I poured. I will be putting an accelerator plate above it, that’s why there is a large gap

Sounds good Shawn;
Keep us updated as you make progress.

So I can not help myself but to ask.
Do you know about Rocket mass heaters???
Might like a nice backup source of heat...
Stop on by the RMH forum and check it out.
You already know the forum leader...

designing these units
I was trying to find out what an 'accelerator plate' is.

John C Daley wrote:designing these units
I was trying to find out what an 'accelerator plate' is.

It’s just a flat plate that is rounded on the end to help the water into the screen a bit better

I wish I had a flowing stream, my place is on dry land, I get a flood once a year or so for which I could use a tidal generator
for a day or so until the next flood.
Its great you made contact with others with the same interest.
I am guessing Thomas you are green with envy now?

Hi John;
One might think so, but not at all!
I'm already very blessed with what I do have, it's more than most.

I'm very happy for Shawn and hope I can help him get his system up & working perfectly!

Thomas , I could use all the advice I can get. I just got my weir done today. It was quite the project. I used around 100 bags of concrete to build the rock wier/ dam. I wanted to make it super strong to withstand any flood that closes along.
 Now I have to bury the 8” penstock along the creek bank which is super rocky . I have to go 1,000 ft.
 I will post pics soon.

I had a few set backs installing my system. It took me WAY longer to find a decent backhoe to buy . So I couldn’t really get started burying my penstock until I found one.
Then when I did start digging I ran into some seriously huge rocks so that slowed me way down.
I had to try and find time to install this system while also doing all the other things that need doing around the farm. Then I fell off a ladder and broke my wrist so that slowed me down a bit.
But I’m back at it now. I got my Weir completed with the Coanda box firmly in place. That build was very slow going I order to get it done correctly.
Now I’m burying the penstock . I have 250ft installed and 750 ft to go. I think I can install about 200ft a day so It’s moving along.
 Here are a few pics of the progress so far

Another view of Coanda box

Penstock is 1000ft of 8” pipe

Wow, Shawn;
That is going to be one kick-ass hydro when you get this all finished up and running!
Thanks for the update and photos!  Keep them coming as you progress.

thomas rubino wrote:Wow, Shawn;
That is going to be one kick-ass hydro when you get this all finished up and running!
Thanks for the update and photos!  Keep them coming as you progress.

Thanks Thomas, like I mentioned earlier in the post, I build this to maximum capacity of my stream. In the winter and spring I should be able to generate somewhere between 2.5 kw - 3 kw continuous. But if not I’m fine wi th that also . I just didn’t want to design it too small and miss out on the max seasonal potential. Not to mention I scored the8” pipe for about half of what 4” pipe would have cost me so, I went for it. The biggest challenge was then finding a coanda screen that could handle 500+ gpm without breaking the bank. I had one quote from a popular coanda screen/ box manufacturer of $7,000 !
  Luckily a friend who already built his system years ago t guided me to a manufacturer that made me 2 screens ( 2’x2’ ) for less than $1,000. Then I made a concrete box for about $200 more.

But enough rambling. I’ll keep you guys updated. I haven’t even started the solar I stall

Well the water is flowing and everything looks great so far up too at the weir. This is my typical flow from now until around June. There valve is not open in this pic however.

thomas rubino wrote:Wow, Shawn;
That is going to be one kick-ass hydro when you get this all finished up and running!
Thanks for the update and photos!  Keep them coming as you progress.

Thomas, Isee that you live in Montana. Do you have issues with your micro hydro freezing? I’m asking because it is getting very cold here and I am just barely gonna get my hydro project up and running before the bone chilling cold sets in.
I am HIGHLY concerned about my penstock freezing. I do have it down in the trench ( see pic in above post) but I don’t think I’m going to have to,e to bury it properly until spring. As you know penstock is expensive and this 8” is no exception.
 I have read if you keep the water flowing it won’t freeze but I don’t like the idea of it not being covered . Any thoughts, experience?

Hi Shawn;
Even well below zero, in 25 years my system has never frozen up.
However, if you have to turn off the water in those temps it will try to freeze at the line running up to the hydro.
That did happen for a few heart-stopping moments one winter when it was running -10 F  outside.
Because my system is a high head but low flow, I have a single small nozzle 9/64" -11/64" at times a large enough piece of gravel can plug my nozzle.
This happened apx 5 am one cold below zero morning.  The water was still moving when I went out to clear the plug. (good thing I am an early riser!)
During the 5 minutes it took to shut off the hydro, remove the nozzle & clear the rock. The exposed line started freezing! Luckily I had propane torches on hand and was able to thaw the pipe quickly.

thomas rubino wrote:Hi Shawn;
Even well below zero, in 25 years my system has never frozen up.
However, if you have to turn off the water in those temps it will try to freeze at the line running up to the hydro.
.

So , you’re saying even though my penstock is still exposed to the elements, It won’t freeze if running? It still worries me. The “8 pipe is crazy expensive and a total pain to work with since it’s so heavy.

I don't blame you for being concerned.  You just spent a sack full of coins and a whole bunch of sweat equity on this project.
All I can tell you is, I was concerned as well the first winter but nothing bad happened.
The big difference is my line is buried.
One option is to leave it dry until next summer when you can get it buried.

Even once I get it buried there is about 30 ft. total that won’t be buried. I figure if I keep it running it should be ok

Shawn Ces wrote:Even once I get it buried there is about 30 ft. total that won’t be buried. I figure if I keep it running it should be ok

Maybe. Moving water does freeze.

There is a phenomenon known as Frazil Ice that can be a huge problem with some hydro set-ups. It's basically where there is supercool water in a turbulent environment, and the frazil ice sticks to man-made materials like steel, concrete and plastic to the point where it clogs the system.

On our set up, this invades the intakes and can be very problematic because there is no good cure. A Bubbler System would only make the problem worse, raking the intakes only mixes the supercooled water that much more, and there is no real good way to heat moving water in high volumes. Really the only cure we have found, is to let the sun warm the turbulent surface and reestablish the layering in the headpond. Naturally this is extremely frustrating and time consuming, and is not unique to our set-up.

This may not be an issue you have, but Frazil Ice is a strange phenomenon and is worth researching only because it can be a real challenge to winter hydro set-ups.

John C Daley wrote:I wish I had a flowing stream, my place is on dry land, I get a flood once a year or so for which I could use a tidal generator
for a day or so until the next flood.
Its great you made contact with others with the same interest.
I am guessing Thomas you are green with envy now?

Would it be possible to have a Pumped Storage Facility?

I understand these situations are very site specific, but if there is water at least once per year to provide water recovery due to leakage and evaporation, pumped storage could work as a hydro set-up for an otherwise non-hydro site?

I do have the capacity on my farm for pumped storage, but my initial foray into feasibility was pretty discouraging. I have not thrown out the idea, but I have some workarounds to do to get the cost down.

Plumbed up the turbines today. Slow progress but progress none the less.

Looking great Shawn!

Steve Zoma wrote:

Shawn Ces wrote:Even once I get it buried there is about 30 ft. total that won’t be buried. I figure if I keep it running it should be ok

Maybe. Moving water does freeze.

There is a phenomenon known as Frazil Ice that can be a huge problem with some hydro set-ups. It's basically where there is supercool water in a turbulent environment, and the frazil ice sticks to man-made materials like steel, concrete and plastic to the point where it clogs the system.

On our set up, this invades the intakes and can be very problematic because there is no good cure. A Bubbler System would only make the problem worse, raking the intakes only mixes the supercooled water that much more, and there is no real good way to heat moving water in high volumes. Really the only cure we have found, is to let the sun warm the turbulent surface and reestablish the layering in the headpond. Naturally this is extremely frustrating and time consuming, and is not unique to our set-up.

This may not be an issue you have, but Frazil Ice is a strange phenomenon and is worth researching only because it can be a real challenge to winter hydro set-ups.

Steve, I would love to hear about your hydro set up

Ha ha: I’m not sure you would. I say that teasingly because it’s a modern design, and looks good on paper, but a terrible set up.

The runner is coupled to a speed increaser to get the right frequency, but also get the Jenny smaller in size. That has its problems but the flow also goes around the Jenny making it tight to work on.

I got to put the brushes on one of the Jenny’s today and not looking forward to that. It will be cold and wet.

But I admire your build. Hydro gets a bad wrap because it’s low power production, but power production is based over a year lifecycle, not an hour. 24 hours a day all year (or nearly so) is how it’s calculated typically, and that is when it starts to really shine.

Steve Zoma wrote:Ha ha: I’m not sure you would. I say that teasingly because it’s a modern design, and looks good on paper, but a terrible set .

What are you’re measurements? Penstock size? Etc?

Shawn Ces wrote:

Steve Zoma wrote:Ha ha: I’m not sure you would. I say that teasingly because it’s a modern design, and looks good on paper, but a terrible set .

What are you’re measurements? Penstock size? Etc?

Its a medium sized hydro-set up.

30 feet of head, but with the venturi-effect getting a pretty decent pressure differential. With variable pitch Kaplan turbines not getting a lot of cavitation which is good.

The first has been pretty flawless, but we got the second jenny set yesterday... what a pain that has been... but should get everything buttoned up today and hope to let water flow tomorrow. We'll see.

We are at flood stage here, so backwater is impeding power production. Getting that second jenny online will help off-set that and help stir more electrons.

It sounds awesome ! What kind of power does it make?
Got any pics ?

Steve Zoma wrote:

Shawn Ces wrote:

Steve Zoma wrote:Ha ha: I’m not sure you would. I say that teasingly because it’s a modern design, and looks good on paper, but a terrible set .

What are you’re measurements? Penstock size? Etc?

Its a medium sized hydro-set up.

30 feet of head, but with the venturi-effect getting a pretty decent pressure differential. With variable pitch Kaplan turbines not getting a lot of cavitation which is good.

The first has been pretty flawless, but we got the second jenny set yesterday... what a pain that has been... but should get everything buttoned up today and hope to let water flow tomorrow. We'll see.

We are at flood stage here, so backwater is impeding power production. Getting that second jenny online will help off-set that and help stir more electrons.

Shawn Ces wrote:It sounds awesome ! What kind of power does it make?
Got any pics ?

It is medium sized so it only makes around 15 megawatts using both turbines. If the river is right with the head pond high, and the tailrace low, we can pull another 1.5 megawatts out of each jenny, but the shafts cannot take the load. That is using around 2200 cubic feet per second. Naturally there is a 6% CFS loss for the fish escape.

It's a little misleading because all powerplants have their output based on a yearly average, so we are less than 100,000 megawatts per year. It's still roughly 10,000 homes it powers though.

Steve Zoma wrote:

Shawn Ces wrote:It sounds awesome ! What kind of power does it make?
Got any pics ?

It is medium sized so it only makes around 15 megawatts using both turbines. If the river is right with the head pond high, and the tailrace low, we can pull another 1.5 megawatts out of each jenny, but the shafts cannot take the load. That is using around 2200 cubic feet per second. Naturally there is a 6% CFS loss for the fish escape.

It's a little misleading because all powerplants have their output based on a yearly average, so we are less than 100,000 megawatts per year. It's still roughly 10,000 homes it powers though.

Holy Hell !!! That isn’t “ micro “ hydro, that’s just a straight up hydro power plant !!! That is some serious power!

Shawn Ces wrote:Holy Hell !!! That isn’t “ micro “ hydro, that’s just a straight up hydro power plant !!! That is some serious power!

Yeah, but that is what I love about hydro and why I got into it as a career. It is so scalable, whether up or down, and then the 24 hour nature of hydro.

A lot of hydro sites now are having battery installations installed on premise to jack the battery stations up during the night, and repower the grid during the morning ramp and peak demand. This is no different than the hydro/solar/battery installations of off-grid homes, just on a different scale.

I just love hydro at all scales. Whether putting a small stream to use in powering a home, or a river system; I am always awed by the power of moving water.

I finally got my turbines set today. Digging the tailrace was a total bear due to the huge rocks. The rocks also dictated how I situated my powerhouse floor. So, the penstock doesn’t line up perfectly to the rear of the powerhouse wall, or future wall, but I made it work

Shawn Ces wrote:I finally got my turbines set today. Digging the tailrace was a total bear due to the huge rocks. The rocks also dictated how I situated my powerhouse floor. So, the penstock doesn’t line up perfectly to the rear of the powerhouse wall, or future wall, but I made it work

Nice dual design. You can maintain one while the other is still spinning, and get double the production too.

Two turbines; I can relate to that as that is what we have too.

Sucks about the rocks on the tail race, but a nice dual peloton wheel set up with quad jetting per turbine.