Aggressive LGD

Hi Folks, I need some advice

I have an almost 2-year old female Great Pyrenees. She's currently unaltered, but going in in a couple weeks to get that done. So, she's been a problem ever since we got her as a puppy - personality-wise she's always been pretty anxious and neurotic; she has been good with my wife and I, but always seems distant and stand-offish when we're around her. She's lovey, but also always seems like she's about to turn; it's just a kind of gut feeling you have looking at her. A lot of that sounds contradictory, but that's just how she is...

The first real problem for us was when she killed three newborn lambs. She's an escape artist as well, and slipped through fencing and got to the newborns - I don't think she killed them out of aggression, just kind of licking fresh fluids, and kept licking and chewing until suddenly she had eaten half of 3 lambs. I take most of the responsibility for this - she was too young and my fencing wasn't up to snuff to keep her away from them, but it was obviously very upsetting to have my first lambing season turn out that way.

The other problem is that she's become really aggressive with humans. We've had her next to the house since she had puppies recently - we've sold most of them, and have been keeping her and the last puppy inside while we wait to get her fixed. She's nipped a couple friends inside the house, and we have to be VERY careful with her. We assumed it was her protecting the house, but the last straw came tonight. We live next to a busy walking trail, and I was out with her letting her pee on-leash, and I fumbled the leash and she got away from me. She likes to roam (Great Pyrenees) and she ran down to the trail where she found a walker - she ran up to him and almost immediately bit him on the calf when he glanced away from her. It didn't break the skin, but will she on the next bite? and will it be a kid or something?? So the biting doesn't seem like defensive biting - she's just aggressive.

Basically, I can't trust her with my sheep, or to stay in the sheep pen, or to not bite random strangers when she inevitably gets out of my sheep pen. It doesn't make sense to me to keep her as a livestock guardian at this point. I'd be happy to give her to a rescue that thinks they can deal with her, or someone with a big farm and no baby animals? Honestly I'm mad enough to put her down myself tonight, but I'm trying to reach for other options first.

Thanks for the help

I think it'd great if you are open to rehoming, hopefully you can find someone/some group that can find a better match for a home for this dog.

My five sheep were attacked today in the middle of the day by a pack of four dogs. They hurt my ram. I wish that people would put down problematic dogs that want to go after someone's livestock. Giving such a dog to someone else is just relocating, not eliminating the problem.

If my LGD killed my lambs, I'd put it down - immediately. Period. A dog that kills what it's bred to protect is, imho, far more likely to turn on me, too. Rehoming just passes the problem along to someone else, and kids could end up at the wrong end of those big jaws.

Put the dog down.

No sense losing your place and everything your worked for because of a lawsuit over a $500 dog.

I have had Great Pyrenes and they have been great, but it does not seem yours has endearing qualities. My dogs have never killed lambs, but rather saved many, many of them by protecting them and barking to alert me they were born.

Great Pyrenes are one-owner dogs, meaning they tend to listen more to one human owner than anyone else, but to show signs of aggression to humans is another thing. Put it down, don't even give it away, as that just passes on the problem to others.

I'm so sorry for your situation, it's so hard.  

As a trainer, when folks come to me with this sort of problem, I have to ask  "where would a SAFE place be for this dog, where it can have a good life AND everyone else can be protected?"   Sometimes, that place does not exist and the burden of responsibility comes down to the owner to let the dog go.  

Some things to ask and expect when getting a LGD (or any dog really):

Are the parents stable, and are they doing the job the puppy will be doing?

Do the breeders have experience and success producing generations of dogs that do the work?   Do they stay in touch and help you with your puppy  thru adolescent dog?

Did the puppy have the correct EARLY imprinting on stock, and did the breeder have a solid socialization program and puppy temperament assessment before selling?

And then the owner has to ask if they have a good PLAN in place for raising, training, and finishing the socialization of this dog, but the success of that depends on everything that happened before you ever got your pup.    

Thinking good thoughts for you as you decide what you need to do.  
 

Just because she can't be a working dog doesn't mean she can't be a great companion dog for someone. I know a woman who adopted a Great Pyrenees from a shelter. She had to fight the shelter to get him because he'd gone through a few homes already and bitten people. He was going to be euthanized. He just needed the right human. I met this dog many times and was surprised when she told me about how she got him. He was calm and friendly and great with her young daughter.

I have a family member who works at a shelter and adopts many of the dogs with serious behavioural issues, dog who would otherwise be euthanized. To my knowledge, she's never had to give up on one.

Rehoming your dog to someone who isn't prepared to do some serious work and doesn't completely understand the dog's history is passing the problem along. Giving the dog to someone who's experienced with and willing to work on the type of aggression your dog is showing IS dealing with the problem.

Bartholomew Olson wrote:Hi Folks, I need some advice

I have an almost 2-year old female Great Pyrenees. She's currently unaltered, but going in in a couple weeks to get that done. So, she's been a problem ever since we got her as a puppy - personality-wise she's always been pretty anxious and neurotic; she has been good with my wife and I, but always seems distant and stand-offish when we're around her. She's lovey, but also always seems like she's about to turn; it's just a kind of gut feeling you have looking at her. A lot of that sounds contradictory, but that's just how she is...

The first real problem for us was when she killed three newborn lambs. She's an escape artist as well, and slipped through fencing and got to the newborns - I don't think she killed them out of aggression, just kind of licking fresh fluids, and kept licking and chewing until suddenly she had eaten half of 3 lambs. I take most of the responsibility for this - she was too young and my fencing wasn't up to snuff to keep her away from them, but it was obviously very upsetting to have my first lambing season turn out that way.

The other problem is that she's become really aggressive with humans. We've had her next to the house since she had puppies recently - we've sold most of them, and have been keeping her and the last puppy inside while we wait to get her fixed. She's nipped a couple friends inside the house, and we have to be VERY careful with her. We assumed it was her protecting the house, but the last straw came tonight. We live next to a busy walking trail, and I was out with her letting her pee on-leash, and I fumbled the leash and she got away from me. She likes to roam (Great Pyrenees) and she ran down to the trail where she found a walker - she ran up to him and almost immediately bit him on the calf when he glanced away from her. It didn't break the skin, but will she on the next bite? and will it be a kid or something?? So the biting doesn't seem like defensive biting - she's just aggressive.

Basically, I can't trust her with my sheep, or to stay in the sheep pen, or to not bite random strangers when she inevitably gets out of my sheep pen. It doesn't make sense to me to keep her as a livestock guardian at this point. I'd be happy to give her to a rescue that thinks they can deal with her, or someone with a big farm and no baby animals? Honestly I'm mad enough to put her down myself tonight, but I'm trying to reach for other options first.

Thanks for the help

Was the dog ever introduced to the animals she killed?  My LGD kills strange animals on my property.  That is the dog's job.  My dog protects "her" animals and kills any other animals that come into her area.  I had to show her which animals are hers.  If you didn't do that, you can't really blame the dog.  Biting people that the dog doesn't know?  Again, exactly what I expect my dogs to do.  Failure to restrain the dog is, again, not the dog's fault.  This in particular I find concerning:  "...when she inevitably gets out of my sheep pen."  I don't mean this to sound harsh, but if you can't properly contain any large, possibly aggressive dog, especially a LGD, you should probably have a different breed.  If it is inevitable that your dog is going to escape, you need a better fence or a different dog I think.

I guess you can tell but I disagree pretty strongly with the people that say to put the dog down.  I would rehome the dog to someone that wants a dog like that.  Someone like me :)  Be completely honest with them so they know exactly what they are getting.  Unless the dog has a true mental issue of some kind, it can be taught which animals are its own, and to protect those.

I also meant to say that "almost two" is still a teenager, as far as a GP goes. Lots of room for learning still, but if you're not willing or able to do it, the sooner you find someone who is the better.

Animals will be animals unless they receive the proper training.

At age two this dog might still have a chance if there is proper training.

Just like a person trains a puppy not to do their business in the house, a dog meant to guard animals needs to have the training to know what its job is.

Probably if a person contacts the breeder, that breeder might know someone who could give this dog the training it deserves.

Also as Trace suggested was the dog introduced to the animals in a way that the dog would know what its job was?

Heather Staas wrote:I'm so sorry for your situation, it's so hard.  

As a trainer, when folks come to me with this sort of problem, I have to ask  "where would a SAFE place be for this dog, where it can have a good life AND everyone else can be protected?"   Sometimes, that place does not exist and the burden of responsibility comes down to the owner to let the dog go.  

Some things to ask and expect when getting a LGD (or any dog really):

Are the parents stable, and are they doing the job the puppy will be doing?

Do the breeders have experience and success producing generations of dogs that do the work?   Do they stay in touch and help you with your puppy  thru adolescent dog?

Did the puppy have the correct EARLY imprinting on stock, and did the breeder have a solid socialization program and puppy temperament assessment before selling?

And then the owner has to ask if they have a good PLAN in place for raising, training, and finishing the socialization of this dog, but the success of that depends on everything that happened before you ever got your pup.    

Thinking good thoughts for you as you decide what you need to do.  
 

I’m sorry to hear about the aggression and misbehavior of your LGD, but Heather touched on one of the most important points for any LGD. Early imprinting and socialization with the flock they are to guard is best. I have four Caucasian Shepherds, who came to me at six months of age, and only one showed the natural proclivity to live with and guard animals. Two others are proven killers, but excellent for barking and security. The other is a big goof whose only concern seems to be his next meal, but is a lovable friend, and the source of much entertainment. Outside of proper bonding and training, with ties to genetic predisposition, it is up to the owner to assess each dog and deal with their behaviors as necessary. Best wishes for you and your dog..

Killing the lambs, as I said before, would have been enough, for me to put her down. THIS, however, seals the deal, as far as I'm concerned. Her age becomes irrelevant, in my eyes, when she attacks people. :

"The other problem is that she's become really aggressive with humans. We've had her next to the house since she had puppies recently - we've sold most of them, and have been keeping her and the last puppy inside while we wait to get her fixed. She's nipped a couple friends inside the house, and we have to be VERY careful with her. We assumed it was her protecting the house, but the last straw came tonight. We live next to a busy walking trail, and I was out with her letting her pee on-leash, and I fumbled the leash and she got away from me. She likes to roam (Great Pyrenees) and she ran down to the trail where she found a walker - she ran up to him and almost immediately bit him on the calf when he glanced away from her. It didn't break the skin, but will she on the next bite? and will it be a kid or something?? So the biting doesn't seem like defensive biting - she's just aggressive."

Carla Burke wrote:Killing the lambs, as I said before, would have been enough, for me to put her down. THIS, however, seals the deal, as far as I'm concerned. Her age becomes irrelevant, in my eyes, when she attacks people. :

I think if you talked to a number of LGD breeders, you would find that a LGD that will bite strangers is far from the exception.  Yes, there are LGDs that won't bite people, but plenty will, my own included.  If that isn't a kind of dog you would like, I can fully understand it, but a LGD's job is to protect its animals and people from anything it perceives as a threat, be it person or animal.  Some LGD breeds can be very people aggressive.   To say that a LDG dog with those traits should be put down is, in my mind, similar to saying you should put down a retriever because it keeps bringing things back to you.

My point is that if the owners don't even feel safe, they probably aren't.

Carla Burke wrote:My point is that if the owners don't even feel safe, they probably aren't.

I understand.  My point is, give the dog to someone that wants, and knows how to deal with, that type of dog, rather than just killing it.  For them, it may be a terrible dog.  For someone else, it might be a perfect dog.

Edited to remove my rather rude comment, with my apologies to anyone that may have read it.

Thanks for the input everyone, I really appreciate it. I'm still waiting to hear back from a breeder friend who may be able to help, so I haven't made a decision yet.

A couple responses to some questions -
Yes she was young and it was my fault she killed the lambs - that's why we let it slide. She was introduced to all the animals and had been great with them up to that point - she'd been living with the sheep and two other guardians for about 8 months at that time. It was a real shock when she killed the lambs.

As for the fence - yes I'm new to this and continually reinforcing the fencing to keep it safe. I have two good LGDs in the pen who had a rash of escapes a week ago, so I had to go fix it up a lot. This LGD however is kind of next-level. When we were lambing she was digging tunnels under fencing and the sheep barn that divides two sides of the pen, just to get to the other side. I haven't had her in the main pen for a while since she had puppies and we're intending on getting her fixed, so I'm worried she's going to find new creative ways to escape from the main sheep pen when she's back in. At this point I can't afford for her to escape even once.

The aggression feels different from being defensive - she's a very 'slippery' dog who if she feels like she's being contained, needs to escape. As soon as I fumbled the leash last night she picked up on it and ran. I'm fine if she bites people while she's in her sheep pen protecting - that's what she's for. I'm not ok with her seeking out strangers outside her pen to bite. I think my situation is different from most peoples' in that we have a busy trail and a busy road bordering two sides of our property - we're not a 50+ acre farm in the boonies.

Bartholomew Olson wrote:Thanks for the input everyone, I really appreciate it. I'm still waiting to hear back from a breeder friend who may be able to help, so I haven't made a decision yet.

A couple responses to some questions -
Yes she was young and it was my fault she killed the lambs - that's why we let it slide. She was introduced to all the animals and had been great with them up to that point - she'd been living with the sheep and two other guardians for about 8 months at that time. It was a real shock when she killed the lambs.

As for the fence - yes I'm new to this and continually reinforcing the fencing to keep it safe. I have two good LGDs in the pen who had a rash of escapes a week ago, so I had to go fix it up a lot. This LGD however is kind of next-level. When we were lambing she was digging tunnels under fencing and the sheep barn that divides two sides of the pen, just to get to the other side. I haven't had her in the main pen for a while since she had puppies and we're intending on getting her fixed, so I'm worried she's going to find new creative ways to escape from the main sheep pen when she's back in. At this point I can't afford for her to escape even once.

The aggression feels different from being defensive - she's a very 'slippery' dog who if she feels like she's being contained, needs to escape. As soon as I fumbled the leash last night she picked up on it and ran. I'm fine if she bites people while she's in her sheep pen protecting - that's what she's for. I'm not ok with her seeking out strangers outside her pen to bite. I think my situation is different from most peoples' in that we have a busy trail and a busy road bordering two sides of our property - we're not a 50+ acre farm in the boonies.

I know my post probably came across that way, but I wasn't trying to downplay your situation.  If you have any fear that the dog will bite you, it's probably best to get rid of it.  My dogs bite, but I am 100% certain they will not bite me or my lady, and it's just the two of us.  You know your dog far, far better than I or anyone else here does.  If you really can't contain the dog, and some can be extremely challenging, you should probably get rid of it.  As you said, your situation is much different than mine and under your circumstances, my dogs would not be ideal.  I just hope you can find a resolution that ends in your family being safe and the dog having a good life.