Toxic positivity

I was trying to remember a philosopher's name the other day and ran across this excellent article while searching: https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-positivity-5093958. I've noticed permaculture seems to draw a certain group of personality types more than others, and I felt that this article could possibly benefit many of us. In the world in which we live today, we are bombarded almost constantly with...well...anything and everything. It seems one thing that bombards us (which is also a direction on how we "should" handle all the bombardment) is toxic positivity.

"How can positivity possibly be toxic?" If you just asked yourself this question, then perhaps the above article is for you. It can hardly be considered a surprise if you did, since toxic positivity is so engrained into our modern culture. I think this is evident if we simply take a look at how positivity and negativity are received in our culture when expressed. I tend to notice when someone is even slightly negative, there is a strong urge to shut them down, either actively or passively (by avoiding them). However, when a person expresses something positive, even when rather unrealistic (or especially when unrealistic) they are often encouraged and even praised. Obviously, the latter can set someone up for a fall, and the former can make someone feel like their feelings have been negated, the end result of either actually leading to more negativity in their lives rather than more positivity.

I think a good permaculturey example would be like saying toxic positivity is like fertilizer. It's good nutrients plants need in a concentrated form. If a plant is looking sickly, many would instinctually put fertilizer on it. Even if nutrients are what the plant needs, the fertilizer may still be too much, or maybe the plant needs more than just fertilizer, like more water. Adding more and more fertilizer will ultimately just doom the plant. Or alternatively the plant may prosper at first, but only to put on so much soft, luscious growth that the next storm that comes along topples it. Plants don't just need all positive things. They also need some adversity to strengthen them to survive tough times. In this regard, we are like plants.

Many ancient cultures have some version of a concept of balance, like yin and yang. I think it is important to consider this not only in our own lives, but especially when dealing and communicating with others. While toxic positivity is detrimental when internalized, it can be shaming, or even a form of gaslighting when directed at others. In the end, toxic positivity can prevent growth for all people involved, and that's pretty negative in my book.

I had to end a long-standing friendship because this friend behaved as though she lived in happy la-la land, oblivious to problems that people had, devalidated my own feelings and concerns that come from my multiple disabilities.  Also was getting really bossy.  This was quite a while ago, I don't think i'd heard the term toxic positivity at the time yet, but that's definitely how she was.  She also wasn't really allowing me to evolve, she'd always bring up wrong things I did or mistakes I made when I was a kid, yes we'd known each other that long.  I finally had enough, we got in a disagreement, she pushed some of my buttons that I won't tollerate the pushing of, and after that visit neither of us called each other again or visited again.  I don't think she's a horrible person on purpose, I think its a lack of awareness, she's a lot older than me and sometimes people in other generations don't talk about nuances as much.

Sorry to hear that, Riona. I get the impression a lot of people here have similar stories. There are a lot of good people here on permies, and good people tend to be magnets for narcissists. It's crazy how many people can be so toxic and not apparently realize it.

So true!
You know what's the biggest problem with toxic positivity is?
It steers a person AWAY FROM REALLY, into a make-belief world.

And when you're not in touch with reality, you can be easily scammed, manipulated, and filled full of BS, and you won't easily notice this, because your senses are already dulled. I think this is why it's so strongly encouraged in our society: it helps big money make money - and a few other agendas.

Balance is exactly where it's at!


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This is very true, and I have had a lot of experience with this toxic positivity, having been raised in such an environment.

I think it might be useful to go as regularly as possible into the forest or some other pleasant space, and accustom oneself to those kinds of feelings of spaciousness and freedom. This seemed helpful for escaping the worst of it, and there is also the possibility of something more profound as well. Maybe wild places are my panacea, for there are certainly many medicines in various forms to be found.

This might be one of the habits for such an environment playing out right now—bypassing feeling and going right into trying to solve a problem. But whatever it is, wild places seem to allow space for negativity and hope alike—instead of fighting for space in a cramped, contracted mind, they can both exist simultaneously.

Maieshe Ljin wrote:This is very true, and I have had a lot of experience with this toxic positivity, having been raised in such an environment.

I think it might be useful to go as regularly as possible into the forest or some other pleasant space, and accustom oneself to those kinds of feelings of spaciousness and freedom. This seemed helpful for escaping the worst of it, and there is also the possibility of something more profound as well. Maybe wild places are my panacea, for there are certainly many medicines in various forms to be found.

This might be one of the habits for such an old environment playing out right now—bypassing feeling and going right into trying to solve a problem. But whatever it is, wild places seem to allow space for negativity and hope alike—instead of fighting for space in a cramped, contracted mind, they can both exist simultaneously.

Very astute! Nature always finds a balance, and we come from nature. Nature is always 100% honest; it is certainly no respector of persons. All the positivity in the world cannot deflect a hurricane, and all the negativity in the world cannot start one. I think a major key to avoiding toxic positivity is humility, and nature has humility to dish out in abundance.

Jordan Holland wrote:......While toxic positivity is detrimental when internalized, it can be shaming, or even a form of gaslighting when directed at others.

Yeah, even before opening the OP and thread, the phrase "toxic positivity" immediately brought up the word 'gaslighting' inside of me.  Even though "Look on the bright side!..." has it's place, so many times a (falsely) positive attitude is just not appropriate for the situation.  I could see where an upbringing where this was experienced constantly would bring up shame over feeling like the recipient was just being "negative" for not accepting the (again, falsely) supportive position of the toxic positive person.  It can be a fine line between dismissive and true support, but usually it can be detected over time.

John Weiland wrote:

Jordan Holland wrote:......While toxic positivity is detrimental when internalized, it can be shaming, or even a form of gaslighting when directed at others.

Yeah, even before opening the OP and thread, the phrase "toxic positivity" immediately brought up the word 'gaslighting' inside of me.  Even though "Look on the bright side!..." has it's place, so many times a (falsely) positive attitude is just not appropriate for the situation.  I could see where an upbringing where this was experienced constantly would bring up shame over feeling like the recipient was just being "negative" for not accepting the (again, falsely) supportive position of the toxic positive person.  It can be a fine line between dismissive and true support, but usually it can be detected over time.

Yes, I think gaslighting  is a particularly dangerous aspect of toxic positivity. If a person says, "Oh, you don't feel that way!" many will easily see the gaslighting. But if a person says, "Look on the bright side!" the gaslighting can be hidden by the virtue signaling. Furthermore, a person can have the best of intentions and gaslight someone not even realizing it.

I guess it goes to show just how much disingenuousness has permeated our culture.

I heard of a cpmpany where they demanded the personel to be positive. It was a callcenter selling newspapers. The personnel was terrorized by positivity. They were told this job was their dream job ans they were going to sell loads!!!
It worked for a bit, but then people starrt to burn out. Feeling guilty for not being positive enough.
They should have flooded the place with happy pills and coffee energy. It's the future.

I like to be positive too. But usually things take longer than anticapated. It's just life. But negativity doesn't cet things done either. Defeatism is the opposite of toxic possitivity. Equally annoying.

Hugo Morvan wrote:
I like to be positive too. But usually things take longer than anticapated. It's just life. But negativity doesn't cet things done either. Defeatism is the opposite of toxic possitivity. Equally annoying.

What concerns me is where the lines are drawn. I think virtually everyone can easily recognize defeatism, and would agree that it is detrimental. I'm afraid if anything, people tend to draw that line where simply acknowledging the existence of a negative circumstance is considered defeatism. I think the line is equally skewed on the positivity spectrum, just the opposite way. I think it is sometimes skewed so far that I wouldn't be surprised if some people would say it is literally impossible to be too positive (probably those managers you mentioned at that company above). In the end, as you say, positive attitudes or negative attitudes (or any attitudes for that matter) don't get things done. Work is what gets things done.

Another interesting aspect is that I have heard "the experts" have said the human brain (maybe all animal brains?) is wired to pay more attention to negative things because in the wild, positive things tend to maybe help you in the long run, but negative things can instantly get you killed or seriously harmed. If this is so, I am concerned that pushing our minds too far to the opposite extreme of what it seems to be wired for could itself be detrimental to our mental health. I don't know where that line should be drawn. I suspect it is different for each of us, and probably different for an individual depending on the circumstances current in that person's life. In my mind, that uncertainty makes it an all the better idea to try to remember others' differences when we speak to or otherwise deal with them.

I think the only place where constant cheerfulness might be understandibly expected is in customer service work.  Even if it sounds brutal to want your employees to be cheerful with customers all the time I totally get that, no one wants an employee who isn't patient and kind to customers.  So that's the only time when I indeed understand enforcing positivity as a job expectation.  Other than that though its problematic.

I often wonder if the clear line we tend to draw between "positive" and "negative" emotions isn't itself rather artificial. For instance, when someone you care about passes away, your sorrow is rooted in the fact that you cared for the person. It's the "other side" of love. If you hadn't cared or loved, you wouldn't grieve. So I wonder, if you try to suppress your grieving because it isn't "positive", doesn't that also amount to denying your love?

Reality is complex, our feelings likewise, and I think if we try to press everything in under the binary labels "good" and "bad", we miss out on a lot.

The thing that's bugging me these days is people saying that focusing on positive outcomes can make them "manifest." It's such a vicious philosophy! Are the victims of war, natural disasters or systemic poverty guilty of failing to manifest a more positive situation for themselves? Oh, it's all their own fault. Ugh!

Barbara Ehrenreich wrote an excellent book several years ago: Smile or Die: How Positive Thinking Fooled America and the World.  https://www.amazon.com/Smile-Die-Positive-Thinking-America/dp/1847081355

I am positive I am negative about always having "yes men and women" around me.   :-)

An echo chamber of  your own ideas and thoughts is a trap in which you do not ever look outside of your box.       You create a mental cell in which you never hear the words,   "Your car would run so much better if you would get rid of the square wheels and switched to round ones...."      

Good critical thinking is some of the best words we can hear, but it does not sound positive at the time.

Bad critical thinking falls into the camp of "it will never work"....    " that looks stupid"....      "you should just give up, you can't do it"...           It takes a brave soul to filter out those words and keep going forward, but sometimes what we do is stupid and we need to change, and a person telling us in a diplomatic way is the best thing for us...       I remember the time I was living on chocolate chip cookies and washed them down with mountain dew....

Riona Abhainn wrote:I think the only place where constant cheerfulness might be understandibly expected is in customer service work.  Even if it sounds brutal to want your employees to be cheerful with customers all the time I totally get that, no one wants an employee who isn't patient and kind to customers.  So that's the only time when I indeed understand enforcing positivity as a job expectation.  Other than that though its problematic.

In customer service work, empathy might be a plus when dealing with annoying problems or customers, but what I think is needed most is objectivity and efficiency.
Faked sympathy might just be a distraction, and sympathy in itself might blunt one's thinking by not allowing to frame the problem in the right context.

Rebecca Norman wrote:The thing that's bugging me these days is people saying that focusing on positive outcomes can make them "manifest." It's such a vicious philosophy! Are the victims of war, natural disasters or systemic poverty guilty of failing to manifest a more positive situation for themselves? Oh, it's all their own fault. Ugh!

Yes! I see this so much as well. I've said it before, but I think Voltaire had it wrong when he said, "If God didn't exist, it would be necessary for us to create Him." I find it to be more accurate to say, "If God didn't exist, it would be necessary for us to become Him." The ability to influence the fabric of reality by thought alone, is that not the realm of gods? I suppose a god complex could be the ultimate extreme of toxic positivity.

I am also concerned about things like this little graphic being so popular online. The comments whenever it was posted were most often little more than an echo chamber, with guys telling other guys different versions of "That's right!" And "Hang in there!" People seem to think that hard work has to equal success. They almost always forget about luck. No matter how much or how little hard work, just a tiny bit of luck (good or bad) can completely change the outcome. People post these types of images and comment on them as if they are a certainty. What I also never saw was anyone saying how truly screwed up they thought this idea was. The age given here is 36. So, if a person works hard for half his life, then he will be able to have a successful, serious relationship. Even if it was a guarantee, that still seems pretty screwed up to me. But it's not even a guarantee. It's just a chance! And what of the women? What would be the true quality of such relationships? It looks to me like a scenario where everyone loses. But I guess it would be too negative to consider that, so...full steam ahead on the positivity train! Woo, woo!

Thank you Rebecca for mentioning this, I hear this kind of talk all the time.  I mean its rather like a new religion in some way, and, though I respect people's right to choose what to believe for themselves, I think it can feel toxic when someone, like war victims etc., _can't change their outcome through manifesting positive thinking.

Riona Abhainn wrote:Thank you Rebecca for mentioning this, I hear this kind of talk all the time.  I mean its rather like a new religion in some way, and, though I respect people's right to choose what to believe for themselves, I think it can feel toxic when someone, like war victims etc., _can't change their outcome through manifesting positive thinking.

The history of this line of thinking goes back to a teaching called "New Thought"...        Indeed it does have a religious aspect.

It is the basis of "Christian Science"   and  "Word of Faith"  teaching...



https://infogalactic.com/info/New_Thought

A wonderful old friend passed away last Tuesday. I was gutted. Several folks encouraged me to 'cheer up' and would go on to say, 'he would want you to be happy' and 'The holidays are upon us; focus on that".

Grrrr.

I was deeply saddened and it was also a shock because it was due to a freak accident.

Was discussing this with one of my closest friends. I told her how it always seems I'm expected to be positive and strong for everyone, but if I ever show a human emotion outside of positivity or determination, then folks assume I am somehow depressed or they come back with similar above-mentioned phrases.

I'm a realist. And I am human. I was given a wide range of emotional responses for a reason, I assume. Just like most of us were.

To deny our feelings is not a good thing, in my opinion. We NEED to feel them. We cannot ignore them or stuff them down inside, into some little box. That is not healthy. I think it is good to feel all the things and even sit with them for however long is needed for us to process them. And then we are truly able to move on. The alternative, is out of nowhere, the undealt with emotions will resurface and usually at the most inconvenient times.

V Lakes wrote:A wonderful old friend passed away last Tuesday. I was gutted. ....
I'm a realist. And I am human. I was given a wide range of emotional responses for a reason, I assume. Just like most of us were.

......I think it is good to feel all the things and even sit with them for however long is needed for us to process them. And then we are truly able to move on. The alternative, is out of nowhere, the undealt with emotions will resurface and usually at the most inconvenient times.

...and I would add that they often will resurface in the most inconvenient *ways*.....as in violent outburst that often is not commensurate with the situation at hand.   You had an attachment with this wonderful old friend and in such relationships there is a part of you.....emotionally, maybe spiritually.... given over to that bond.  When such a friend or family member passes, there is a wound created that takes time to heal.  Platitudes to the contrary tend not to be helpful at this juncture.....

V, sending condolences.  Its normal and natural to be gutted when someone who you care about suddenly dies.  I wonder if all those people who told you to ignore your feelings are secretly terrified of what will happen when someone _they care about suddenly dies, and so to agknowledge your pain would mean they have to think about the realities of mortality themselves?  Its okay and normal and expected  for you to not feel okay right now.

Found this article on my own website (shared with a couple colleagues -- one of them must have posted it).
I think it's very fitting here and sums up the topic well:
https://triumphovergray.com/blogs/blog/positive-mindset-is-for-idiots-and-could-be-standing-in-the-way-of-demystifying-good-luck

Jordan Holland wrote:

Maieshe Ljin wrote:

This might be one of the habits for such an old environment playing out right now—bypassing feeling and going right into trying to solve a problem. But whatever it is, wild places seem to allow space for negativity and hope alike—instead of fighting for space in a cramped, contracted mind, they can both exist simultaneously.

Very astute! Nature always finds a balance, and we come from nature.

Admitting upfront that I have not read the article posted in the OP (at least, not recently, it does ring a bell so maybe I've read it before) nor the one posted just before my writing this about positive mindset, but I want to say that I agree with the above. Balance is key. Balance is also often frustratingly hard to find. Also, I took an online course about mindset, and I have to say that having a generally positive mindset (as per my understanding of the term mindset) can be a good thing. It's not the same as always being positive (something I find impossible). We humans have this tendency to use the same words but with different meanings for them and it's really hard to understand each other as a result. The "mindset" in that article might not be what I'm thinking of as "mindset."

Anyway. This thread reminds me of something I saw on Pinterest, which I've had to edit because the original wording doesn't include the "toxic" part but really should...

The antidote to negativity is not toxic positivity, it's warmth.
Toxic positivity tells a sad person there's no reason to be sad.
Warmth asks the sad person if they want to go get some ice cream.

To me, that illustrates the whole point so well. I think warmth could even be changed to sympathy or empathy, both of which seem in short supply in the world.