bounty list - projects I am willing to pay for

Paul - that is an extensive list... you need more ants+

Pia Jensen wrote:Paul - that is an extensive list... you need more ants+

Working on it!

Jocelyn and I have recently recorded six hours of podcasts. I think we have two more hours to go. It has to do with the shift in the way we do things here and the value of ant village.

have you been in touch with circular economy's James Greyson (UK)? he may have some stateside connections that may wish to take part as participants or instructors... web http://blindspot.org.uk/ and twitter https://twitter.com/blindspotting heat bio ... circular expertise

I've never heard of a humus well, and Google isn't helpful either. Can I get an explanation or a link?

Humus well: I should start a thread to describe it. Maybe draw some pictures. In a nutshell, dig a sloped trench and bury a water collector about a hundred feet long. Then plant taprooted trees nearby. Years later, the water collector starts to dribble water.

Chad, here's the thread I started on this technique.

https://permies.com/t/32725/sepp-holzer/Sepp-Spring-Terrace

When you say bow range are you thinking large cleared area to set up traditional targets or walk-through style with specific shots laid out?

I guess the most basic form of my question would be "Do you need a lot of trees cut down for any reason?" This is my go to way of making money currently therefore the thing that I am most equipped to do efficiently for trade. I'm even insured for said work so you wouldn't have to worry if I hurt myself.

Haha, do you think googling "can I check a chainsaw with my baggage?" put me on any kind of list?

When you say bow range are you thinking large cleared area to set up traditional targets or walk-through style with specific shots laid out?

More like a single target set up in such a way that the target and the bales of straw stay dry. And 40 yards from the target there is some sort of locked shed where we can store bows and the like.

Maybe a couple of stone lines to mark how far away you are from the target.

I have a small pile of sewing projects that I would be willing to farm out.

And I have a project involving wifi stuff I would like to farm out.

Do you provide tools and raw materials for the bounty list projects?

I wish to get to the point that I don't provide tools or raw materials. But for now, the bounties have been getting knocked out using my tools and materials.

I have a few thoughts to add to this.


234) There might be a bounty for a project that is, let's say, $200. Let's suppose a "Ferd" agrees to do the bounty. But, a little ways in, Ferd comes to the conclusion that, at this rate, the income will end up being only $9 per hour. But when Ferd agreed to do it, Ferd thought he would end up with about $25 per hour.

234.1) The rate of $200 for the bounty was calculated with the idea that somebody who has great skill in this space would get it done in about 8 hours. And such a skilled person would probably get about $25 per hour. Therefore, $200.

234.2) If a person attempts to do this job, but they don't have a lot of skill, it will probably work out to take a lot more hours. The more hours it takes, the lower the income per hour.

234.3) It seems that most people that take on a bounty, start the job being certain that they will end up with $25 or more per hour. And when the task starts to look like it will run longer than their original estimate, they regret agreeing to the bounty.

234.3.1) I think that feeling this regret is a clear sign that they did a poor job of estimating the work. Therefore, they do lack this experience. After all, if they had a lot of experience, they would make excellent estimates.

234.4) Ferd has learned that he has less skill than he thought he did.

234.5) Ferd is getting paid to learn a skill.

234.6) The skills that Ferd learns during the first half of the bounty, will probably help the second half go faster.

234.7) Ferd does not need to tell people what his skill level is. It is a bit of private information for himself. He got the job done.


235) I wrote earlier this year about how "obligation is poison". And yet every time a person accepts a bounty, they are accepting an obligation. And I am accepting an obligation to pay them.

235.1) I think it is important to recognize that it IS a poison. To both parties. And that any job is a kind of poison.

235.2) The trick is to figure out how to maximize the upsides and minimized the downsides.

235.2.1) Some people can take on a project that will last for several months. Other people cannot take on a project that lasts more than a few hours. It might take some trial and error to find a sweet spot for folks.

235.2.2) Some people think that they can get a task done in four hours, but find themselves two months later and the task is still not complete. So much festering poison.

235.2.2.1) I think there needs to be a buy-out to get released from the poison.

235.2.2.1.1) When calculating the buy-out, I think the calculation should be focused on:

235.2.2.1.1.1) how much will need to be paid to the person to finish the bounty

235.2.2.1.1.2) how much effort it will take to find the person to finish the bounty, show it to them, and explain to them what needs to be done

235.2.2.1.1.3) A bonus for finishing the bounty


236) The bounties are calculated as if a pro is doing it. In which case, the pro would understand what needs to be done without too much discussion. Plus, when the pro says they are done, the job is always done right the first time.

236.1) "Done." "Nope." "Okay, now I'm done." "Nope." "Now." "Nope." ....

236.2) "I'm stuck and need your advice."

236.3) "I don't know how to do this part."

236.4) I need you to tell me, for the sixth time, how this part is to be done.

236.5) I have some mixed feelings in this space. Sometimes I think it would take me less time to just do it myself. Sometimes I think that the amount of interaction I am putting into it starts to fall into the space of me being a unpaid teacher, or unpaid consultant. At the same time, I do think that some questions are fair and there does need to be a certain amount of interaction. So I don't think there should be a hard rule here. But I do feel that by mentioning it here, then we probably stick more to the good kind of communication and less of the my time is being inappropriately consumed stuff.

I edited the first post a LOT to show dollar figures for some bounties, plus some details, plus some highlights for winter project stuff.

Fred and I have been running the numbers to come up with dollar figures for bounties. But maybe if there are some people thinking of coming out in the next month or so and they see a bounty or two they would like to see fleshed out, they can speak up and we'll tackle those first.

I think that between april and october (seven months) I paid out about $30,000 in bounties:

- volcano road
- big start on berm shed
- allerton abbey upgrade
- clean and tidy
- cooking
- skiddable shed
- create the boneyard at the lab
- upgrade the compost pile for hot water
- upgarde willow bank
- upgrade showers
- plant oodles of seeds and put down oodles of mulch
- equipment repair and maintenance
- facade upgrade at wofati 0.8
- paddock at basecamp (featuring junkpole)
- three log benches
- fiddling with game cam
- annual rmh maintenance
- finish some basecamp berms
- winterize bee hut
- tend to tipi
- interior upgrade to wofati 0.8
- sketchup help

And that's just the stuff off the top of my head

I think that a person could state that they will come out on a certain week. Say, January 10th through the 16th. That person could create a thread about their skills and make a long list of the stuff that would be worked on. Then that person could, effectively, teach a workshop for that week. Maybe there can be a "slumber party" in wofati 0.8.

Maybe that person would say that the workshop is $200 and there is a max of 12 students. Then that would be $2400. And then the person would knock out a bunch of bounties - but with the help of a dozen people, maybe that person could collect $4000 in bounties in addition to the workshop money.

A possible January workshop (10th throught the 16th) could include:

- build a three log bench
- light at least one rocket mass heater
- put up a cord of firewood
- - select and drop a dead standing tree
- - chainsaw safety
- - bucking up the tree
- - splitting and stacking
- build a skiddable shed
- build a junkpole fence with rockjacks
- a little bit of winter cob
- install a portable rocket heater
- use solar electricity
- build a good roundwood gate
- build some roundwood furniture
- experience some small welding

It seems like a lot of folks would like to build a big collection of small experiences.

Click the thumbs up on this post if you think you would shell out $200 for this experience.

When Fred and I are trying to calculate bounties, we usually think about two fictitious people:

1: somebody with a lot of natural building skill and a lot of conventional building skill. This person arrives with all of their own tools, their own truck, will acquire materials on their own and need zero handholding or training. Can take ownership of a 30 day job and see to it that it gets done - no excuses. This person is $25 per hour.

2: a standard farm hand. Can build fence, do some light carpentry, simple welding, is excellent at chopping and stacking wood, is excellent at driving a tractor, hard working and reliable. Does not come with his own tools or truck. Can take ownership of a two day job and see to it that it gets done - no excuses. $10 per hour.

3: it might take a year or two of assisting a #1 or #2 to build up to "a standard farm hand."

Also good for winter - signs!

See the sign thread for more examples, especially this post where Paul writes:

paul wheaton wrote:Here is a list of signs yet to be made. Bounties for all of these:

lower sherwood road
upper sherwood road
raspberry rock
emily's tipi
holzer road (to the lemon tree site)
the clay pit
the near-cob pit
the solar leviathan
the willow candy warehouse
volcano road (submarine leg)
volcano road (turkey leg)
volcano road (raspberry leg)
volcano road (caldera leg)

Any others?

Plus, the following post in the signs thread talks about updating a document for the willow feeders and creating a document for the showers.

Hey everybody! There's a new housing thread that is super relevant to anyone looking to come out to the land - https://permies.com/t/52736/labs/State-Lodging#428013

I would like to post a bounty for a hugel berm siege ladder!

This might have been Evan, or Kai, or Fred's idea. With 12-foot high 'hugel berms' (that's what I call them - see this thread to see some pics) at base camp, and no paths halfway up on many of them, a "siege ladder" is needed for harvesting, planting, and mulching some of the goodies out of reach!

I'm thinking the bounty could be $50-$75 for making one of these out of pine poles available on the property.

I spent far too long looking for siege ladder pictures. It's embarrassing, really.

Here's one (source):



And I even found a video! This one is cool because it talked about spikes in the bottom to keep the bottom of the ladder from slipping out from underneath the climber, and ways to lash it to the wall for security as well. Though a hugel berm siege ladder would need some different considerations, of course.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:I would like to post a bounty for a hugel berm siege ladder!

We still haven't figured out what we want for a siege ladder yet. The wooden ladders in the video above would be too heavy to move around.

Purchasing a 10-ft or so fiberglass or aluminum orchard ladder to modify starts at about $225 on up to $350 or so. Whew!

Paul began to think that our current orchard ladders are not used for construction that much (only 6% of the time maybe), so he thinks a siege ladder modification that would be easy to remove might be a better option than buying more expensive ladders.

Then, Paul had an interesting idea.

What if, similar to a keyhole garden, wooden siege ladders are built in place on our giant hugelkulturs, maybe with scaffolding or a board between them. It would be even cooler if they were built completely with mortise and tenon or wooden pegs to avoid any screws or nails working out of the ladder and into the garden.

This crappy digital drawing is an attempt to illustrate what Paul described. The top of the ladders would somehow be fastened, or pegged into the berms, and angled in of course (not really shown in this rendering), with the bottoms firmly anchored as well. There would no longer need to be a concern about the weight of wood ladders like this.

If each ladder could be built for $60-80 (is that reasonable?) then we could have four ladders for the price of one fiberglass or aluminum ladder.

Okay, here's something that might be a crazy suggestion. If you're not going to be moving them, is it feasible to plant a fast growing tree where you want a ladder and then prune/train it to grow branches at convenient locations?

Or maybe just grow trees where you want a secure base to serve as a permanent brace for a lighter, less expensive ladder. This could even be a temporary stage while the tree grows enough to replace the ladder.

Every time I think about the hugel berm access issue the main thing that pops into my hard is one of those fancy rolling ladders they have in fancy libraries. Not as cheap as a plain siege ladder but it would have so much cool factor.

Based on the fishing for coin, July 2016 thread it seems the bounty project thread is not up to date. What bounties are actually available? Fred and Paul have both spent time repeating themselves on bounty requirements and details, which sometimes change as innovative ideas come to fruition. Would posting the requirements here or a dedicated thread, with their revisions as they happen, help get things moving? Perhaps this method has been tried before.

Yes, this page will need updating.  Not only have some things been done, but some things have been partially done.  At the same time, as you pointed out, funds for projects are currently very low (due mostly to my health issues this year, and many people not coming through on projects in the time frame that was hoped).  

paul wheaton wrote: and many people not coming through on projects in the time frame that was hoped).

Accurately estimating how long projects will take is something we are all learning how to do it seems. Auto mechanics know within a half hour how long a project should take. The fix has been done a ton of times before and is even documented in a reference manual for the whole industry to use. Permaculture and anything innovative or creative has too many unknowns, no reference manual for labor time, the bigger the project the more the unknowns, the more innovative the design the more the unknowns, therefore assigning a hopeful time-frame is even more unlikely to be accurate.  Add to that, changes to project requirements as they progress and ‘hoped’ time-frames are thrown out the window.

Gathering materials alone can take longer than the actual project itself. If a worker doesn't have access to vehicles or tools and is not set up to efficiently gather materials, some projects will drag on seemingly forever. In these lean times, perhaps projects can be broken down into smaller parts, the first of which might be sufficient materials gathering at each site. Just because the full bounty is not available, doesn't mean all progress must halt. Small bounty projects and hourly projects seem successful for both the worker and Paul, based on my very limited knowledge and experience at Wheaton Labs.

Paul, you think BIG, which is the only way things like Wheaton Labs ever come to fruition. People also want to make Paul happy, to help Paul in his big dreams. Combine all of these factors with your dominant conversational style and amateur workers with well-meaning nodding heads and we end up with unfinished projects.

I think we might have a project set up where the bounty is $1000.   A person will agree to do that project, thinking that they can do it in three days.   About four days into the project they then think that they it will take them about ten days.  

Sometimes the reason it is taking so many days is that they are sure they are putting in a ten hour day, but it turns out that they are putting in two hour days.   Sometimes, ten days have passed and they think "I have worked on this for ten days" but, the actually did not work at all on the project six of those days.  

Sometimes people think that they bounty should be higher because of this.  

At the same time, I think that if somebody does have a lot of experience would find that the bounty is fair and will get it done quickly and collect the bounty.    For those where it turns out that they are lacking in experience - it would seem that they are getting paid to learn.

For the above-mentioned $1000 bounty, most people would work hard, get it done and then it would be $1000.   For some others ....   they get a ways into the task and they need an advance.    I have tried to figure something out for folks.   I try to set up the advance so that 40% of the bounty can be set up as a bonus at the end and then try to figure out the piecemeal for the project.   Naturally, folks would prefer to have much more money.  But the corollary to this is to have the project finished by somebody else, they want a much larger bounty to repair the work done by the previous person.    To the person collecting the bounties, I suppose that they don't mind if I pay out $2000 for a $1000 project.    But I think that encourages a lot of half-baked projects and costs more for lower quality work.  

Plus, if the deal is $1000 for the bounty, then, technically, not one cent goes out until the whole thing is done.  That is what is agreed to.  

So, folks get in a pickle and I want everything to work out for everybody, so I try to come up with something that works well for everybody.   That is going to be an advance that keeps at least 40% of the coin in reserve until the whole job is done.

If a worker doesn't have access to vehicles or tools

Then they probably should not take the bounty.  Or, maybe they can use my tools for a dramatic drop in bounty.

anything innovative or creative has too many unknowns

Then they probably should not take the bounty.

changes to project requirements

Has that ever happened?  

I think there have been times that somebody took on a bounty and built something poorly, and they were asked to do it correctly.  But that is not a "change".  

Small bounty projects and hourly projects seem successful

And we don't have very many of those.  

Some people have the ability to take on a two hour task.   Some people have the ability to take on a two day task.   Some people have the ability to take on a two week task and some people have the ability to take on a two month task.  

If a person has the ability to take on a two hour task and they try to take on a two week task, it might take them three months and their final $ per hour will be quite low.   At the same time, if a person that can take on a two month task, takes on a two week task, they might finish it in ten days and their $ per hour will be quite high.  Plus, the quality will be high and that person made it look damn easy.  

I think that if a person takes on a bounty and it is taking longer than they thought, they should:

1: finish it, as they said they would.  Their taking the bounty blocked that bounty from others.  Plus, leaving it unfinished causes a list of other problems.

2: appreciate that they are learning things that they didn't know they needed to learn.   Better estimating?  Better use and care of tools?  Being thrifty and professional at gathering materials?


I think there are not many jobs, especially within the permaculture world, where a person can get paid to learn stuff.  

Further, the bounty program was never intended to offer paid work at a rate to compete with office jobs in a big city.   At the same time, we do try to make our estimates work out to be something on the order of $20 per hour for people that really know what they are doing.  

A lot of folks here have been SUPER happy with the bounty system as is.   Several people have made a lot of money.  Some people have averaged more than $25 per hour.  And there are some people that are complaining that they are earning less than $16 per hour and they just cannot work that cheap.  In the meantime, it seems that there are a lot of people in the county that have more experience and are currently earning minimum wage.  

So I suppose it comes down to the age old issue of how most people want more money for less work.  And those people will probably be much happier taking an office job in a big city.  

The few people that are super happy with the bounty system will probably come back for more bounties and everything will be peachy.

And, as always, sometimes somebody wishes to build some skills with something which is a bigger task.  In that case, we might come up with a really small bounty for a big gob of work.  After all, the work they do will be of no use to anyone until the entire project is complete - and it might be years until that happens, if at all.  But we seem to find ways to get money to people that are looking for money.  Not as much now as last year - but enough.