food stamps

just wanted to point out that accepting government food benefits is a good idea for several reasons.  most obviously it's a way to tap into another potential income stream.

a less obvious advantage is that it shuts down the common objection that food grown in a responsible way is only affordable for wealthy folks.  accepting EBT or other food benefits removes our products from the realm of yuppie fad.

only works for food, of course.  most places that includes food plants and seeds, though.

I know that this could be a touchy subject, but as long as government food programs exist, I think it makes sense for them to support responsible producers instead of huge corporations.

NBC did a story on Link cards being used more widely at local farmers markets.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/vp/38251261#38251261

They featured the 61st street market in Chicago where customers food stamp benefits are doubled if used at the market rather than grocery store. The farm I work for has a table at this market. People using their cards are very excited about being able to get good veggies for a change.
Check out the video. - Joe

that's pretty great.  seems like most of the farmers markets around here accept food stamps, but I haven't seen any double the value like that.  Washington and Oregon weren't among the states that lit up in the graphic.

in detroit at eastern market their is a booth where you can go and get vouchers to spend at the booths that will be redeemed by sellers against a person's food stamp allowance.

i think it'd be admirable to cultivate a local, poorer clientele at a farmer's market or through some creative advertising for CSA's at various social service agencies

Another consideration: looking at quantitative easing efforts, some people are discussing scenarios where food stamps remain in circulation longer than Federal Reserve notes. I don't put too much stock in these theories, and in the scenarios they discuss I personally think that the US nickel and the "forever" stamp are likely to circulate longer than either food stamps or dollars, but it's worth considering unlikely events, for the sake of resiliency.

I wish we had food stamps in my country. It's wonderful to see such successful socialist programs working in conjunction with capitalist enterprises. Win - win all the way, the farmer gets some money and children get to eat!

When I first saw the original post, I thought he was suggesting food stamps as a way for organic/sustainable farmers to afford food for themselves. Sadly, this made a lot of sense to me.

binford6100 wrote:
When I first saw the original post, I thought he was suggesting food stamps as a way for organic/sustainable farmers to afford food for themselves. Sadly, this made a lot of sense to me.

could be a way for farmers to afford seed, supposing they're operating on a small-ish scale.  food stamps can generally be used to buy both food plants and seeds to grow food.  I'm not aware of a restriction on what is done with the food grown using those seeds or plants.

i'd argue that folks that need food stamps purchasing local organic produce is an elegant and important counter measure to large scale, industrial monoculture which has it's own government subsidies.

binford6100 wrote:
When I first saw the original post, I thought he was suggesting food stamps as a way for organic/sustainable farmers to afford food for themselves. Sadly, this made a lot of sense to me.

Ya, that's what I thought, too.
I had a friend that was mentally disabled, barely got enough from her disability check to pay rent, utilities, and hardly anything in the way of food stamps.  I would always see a full case of ramen noodles and the cheapest macaroni and cheese next to her frig.  She said it was the only way she could stretch that food stamp money to last her until she got the next check.  Sad.  With her mental illness, she also had some physical limitations, even walking was very difficult, she could hardly stand to cook, so she had very few options.  We would give her extra money some months, but then she'd have two cases of ramen noodles, etc.  I don't know how many times we took over a bag of groceries with veg, canned fruit and meat. 

Purchasing organic foods or going to a farmers market just wasn't an option for her, probably not for a lot of people that are in hard times.  Especially if they have kids, they're trying to get enough to fill bellies.

I think my friend got a whopping $16 a week in food stamps.

I sell at a few farmers markets that have a way for customers to use their SNAP cards (aka food stamps). Customers can go to a central booth and run their cards in exchange for tokens that can be used at the market. Then at the end of the market the farms go to the central booth and exchange all the tokens they got for cash.

Our state also has a farmers market nutrition program, where nursing or pregnant mothers get special checks that are only redeemable for locally grown fresh produce at farmers markets. We can deposit these checks at the bank just like any others once we get them stamped with the market's stamp that we sold the produce at that market.

These kinds of programs get tens of thousands of dollars into local farms each year.

I've been lurking in the forum for a couple days now, reading a few things that caught my attention. This topic finally pulled me in enough to make me sign up. I'll post a proper introduction elsewhere when time permits. 
My two cents: I would not and will not accept food stamps for any product that I sell. I am opposed to taking money from anyone's pocket against their will, in order to redistribute it to someone else (which is exactly what we are doing with food stamps).
Instead, I would give the food to those I deemed to be in true need of it. I am willing to offer my labor and a reasonable amount of its results to those who truly have need of it, as determined by me. I believe that this is what is right of us to do as humans. What is not right is for another person (or bureaucrat) to demand that I or anyone else do so, while simultaneously taking a cut of the proceeds for himself. Why not cut out the inefficient middle man?
I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I'm just sharing my opinion, yours may vary.
(By the way, great forum! Looking forward to getting more involved here.)   

mike 711,  so if you were in a subsidized trade ( dairy, cotton) you'd turn down the payment that was doled out to every other farmer growing the same unprofitable crop? i understand the idea of your tax money being distributed being unpalatable, ij ust come from the understanding that country with a healthy lower class is better off than a country with a starving lower class. if need be i could churn out a few footnotes to back this up but i'm off for now.

I'm short on time (got to get to my part-time day job), but the short answer is that just because everyone else gobbles up taxpayer money doesn't mean it's right. If you disagree with something, yet still participate in it, all you're doing is perpetuating something you see as wrong.
It may not be the most profitable way to operate, but it is the most moral way. Some things mean more to me than money.
(Will respond in more depth later this afternoon.)

Yes, each farmer needs to generate income according to his or her ethical principles.

Before ya'll get too busy discussing taxation, social services, and gifting here in this thread, it's likely that Paul our esteemed moderator would move such a discussion entirely out of the farm income forum.

I can respect mike711's principled stand, though I'm skeptical of its ability to bring about change.  I can also easily respect a person who agrees in principle with mike711, but has to accept food stamps or subsidies just to stay afloat while working to make those clumsy economic tools unnecessary.  and I don't believe that person would be acting immorally.

I personally support roughly anything that diverts resources from irresponsible and predatory businesses.  in this context, I'm referring to the larger food industry that receives the vast majority of food stamps.

and I'll leave that side of the conversation right there.

If this is not the proper forum for such a discussion, then I apologize. I'd also like to say that I don't mean to step on any toes with my statements; I'm just sharing my opinion.
I also agree that someone accepting foodstamps or other assistance to stay afloat for a short time is not immoral. What I was getting at was that coercing compassion from others does not fit my values; compassion should be freely given, or else it's pointless.
What I do take issue with is the general attitude of those who believe in using the government to try to "tear down" or "take away" from businesses who are seen as unethical or predatory. The reason it is possible for these businesses to do this is because of government, not in spite of it. The "real food" movement is a great example of this; The reason it is hard to buy or sell products like raw milk is because of government regulation bought by large agro-business, for the purpose of cutting the small farmer out of the equation. Yet many keep appealing to the government, who sold them out in the first place, to remedy the problem. So they toss a few scraps to the small farmer, by letting him have a pittance of foodstamp monies, and hope it makes him happy. Meanwhile, factory farms maintain their monopolies via legislation and keep collecting their corporate welfare (subsidies). This is the problem.

sounds like we're on two sides of the same problem.  there's a lot of criticism of u.s. ag policy, and policy in general.my hackles got raised at the idea of refusing to accept food stamps due to one's convictions, which in the broader scheme of things is only making things harder for someone you'd assume is having a hard enough time of it as is.
  i wanted to draw a parallel between public and corporate welfare.  the idea of declining foodstamps as an action that will strike a blow against taxation seems to suggest a whole realm of similar actions such as raw milk from a local producer, only banking with a bank that wasn't bailed out, skipping gas entirely, probably only buying ford vehicles all of which are fine ideas (although i like the mileage on a toyota).
  i'm no great fan of large governments but i think denying foodstamps would be more for show than due to a belief that any good would result from it. there's also the tricky ground of determining when someone is or is not being immoral by accepting foodstamps, and then factoring that into your willingness to accept their trade.

I don't think our thoughts are in complete opposition to each other...we're seeing the same thing, but just having different responses to it. Mine is to try to cut out the politicians wherever possible, yours is to try to force them to change. There's nothing wrong with either idea, I just feel that mine is the path of least resistance.
As you said, a problem lies in determining who NEEDS foodstamps and benefits, as opposed to who only WANTS them. Virtually no one will turn down someone in dire need, it's only the moochers who create all the controversy surrounding public assistance. This is why I'm advocating charity on a private, local level. When you are able to see an individual's circumstances for yourself, you can use your personal judgement to determine if they really need your assistance. This way, there is no resentment.
I have proposed another idea to friends, and no one has opposed it so far. It is to offer seeds, and the means to grow them, to anyone who requests assistance...The idea being that anyone who is honest about needing food shouldn't be opposed to the small amount of work it takes to produce it. I realize that a few people are disabled to the point where they could not do the work involved, so this wouldn't completely solve the problem. But it could greatly reduce the tax burden involved with getting food to hungry, yet able-bodied people.

good good, seems like a fairly happy meeting place, although how i wound up being the fella trying to make the gorvenment change is strange to me. i generally justtry to go about my business with the folks around me and ignore the government to whatever extent i can...not in an apathetic fashion, just busy, and i feel like my work is best put into small local networks that can do the job without asking anyone for permission.
  on your allotment plan, it sounds grand, the land aquisition would be the tricky part. though there are models for how to make it work. if it were a broadscale replacement for food stamps you would need land outside of urban areas, which would call for some manner of bussing arrangement. bicycles would be preffered but consider hauling the harvest back into town.
and then you'd need to organize a farming system for meats and dairy items which seems like it might be tricky with a (hopefully) revolving work force. because you couldn't expect hard times to mean vegetarianism....or even lack of cooking with butter. there's also the single mother problem, imagine a poorly behaved toddler rampaging over the rows.
i'm not saying it isn't a fine idea just tricky, and it seems like it'd be near impossible to gather the kind of public support it would need.

The food stamp program is abused by some folks, but that does not make it bad.
It is not stealing from one person and giving to another one, it was created by our
legal representatives.

As such if local farmers can make their sales increase by accepting food stamps,
more power to them.  If you can afford to give away your farm produce
to the poor and you do, I am sure blessings will come your way.

Any steps toward self sustainability is great.  Help someone start a garden, teach them to
grow in containers on balconies, grow greens in front of windows, make their own bread....
Self improvement cannot be legislated, all we can do is try to help others.

mike711 wrote:
I am opposed to taking money from anyone's pocket against their will, in order to redistribute it to someone else (which is exactly what we are doing with food stamps).

Does that mean you don't drive on any roads? Because you know how they are paid for. It's not voluntary. And lots of people like me don't have cars, but they still have to pay taxes that go for roads. So do you drive on roads?

Hear, hear.  It's great to see everyone looking at our social problems from different angles and providing input on best possible solutions but in my humble opinion I would have to jump on board with Mike711.  I am by no means innocent as I have had to accept food stamps out of necessity but good things can come from being humbled.  We have in the past attended seed swaps in our local area and have acquired a hundred or so varieties of various delicious veggies and are currently in the process of transforming our yard into a food producing system.  I'm not sure that we can be as successful as the Dervaes family but will sure work towards that goal and you can bet we will be sharing with others in our community as best we can.  Here's a good clip of what they are doing on 1/10 of an acre in Pasadena, CA. -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCPEBM5ol0Q

As you can see even individuals in the city can grow quite a bit of food on a small space.  I realize that theirs is a full time job, but even just a few raised beds and maybe a small fruit tree or two on an urban lot will help to shift the momentum back to local scene. 

Kudos to Mike711 for sharing seed


I am also in complete agreement that we need to remove our attention from the "national political arena" and learn to shift it to a more local, person to person arena.   It doesn't really make much sense for me to put my faith into individuals (politicians) who are miles away from my problems and therefore have no clue about who I am or my needs, but my friends and family as well as my community is right here and I can actually interact with them on a personal level which makes everything more "human".

PS - We (my wife and our children) visited my in-laws in Colorado this past September. While there we went to an orchard that was part of some land purchased by a wealthy Texan.  The new owner had no clue about what to do with an orchard and therefore he opened it up to all of the locals to come and harvest for FREE!  This orchard hadn't been tended for several years but the trees were loaded and the fruit was absolutely amazing - see below

There are 45 million Americans on food stamps.  Government spending is now over 50% of GDP.  Get the gov funny-money before monsanto does.

So I am reading through this very interesting thread and I just wanted to add my two cents. 
I am one of those people who are currently on food stamps.  I was in a pretty bad accident a couple of years ago and was left unable to work.  Up to that point I had two different jobs plus my own business that was just starting to really take off...  I have been working since I was 15.  So i definitely have put in a fair portion of $$  in the general fund.  I had always been very conscious of what I ate and preferred to live a healthy lifestyle.  I was so worried that I would not be able to eat the same healthy fresh locally grown foods that I had grown accustomed!  When I took my tiny amount to the food store ever month I would go home with bags of pasta and starchy foods.  Things that would fill me up but not really treat my body with the respect it deserved...   
Luckily I found a CSA that did accept the food stamps I had to offer.  I felt good knowing that I could still eat healthy organic foods, and support local economy and small farms.  All the things I feel very strongly about.
We have since moved out of the city and into the country.  But the cost of food is constantly rising and the amount I am granted is not.  We have been working on planting a garden to help subsidize our foods.  But as to having a full out farm, we do have the means nor the land to do that.  And it is one thing to use your stamps for seeds, but chickens, rabbits, cows or pigs...?  Which store will except the stamps in exchange for those?  We do the best we can with our limited resources.  And don't feel like we are abusing the system, because the first thing we did and do with our government funds is put them back into our small local communities where it is really deserved and needed.  We also work hard to use the barter system for anything that we can.  But everyone still has bills that require paper money....
I respect everyones' opinions of if the stamps are friend or foe and recognize that there are many many people who abuse the system.  But abuse comes from the top as well as the bottom.  If you do not believe in food stamps don't use them or accept them as a method of payment. But I think you are missing out on the bigger picture by doing so.  This is money we have all put into the "system" by paying our taxes.  This is our money, the people's money, let us use it to help ourselves out! 
Thanks for reading all the way through my ramble! 

Accepting "food stamps" would be a good idea for farmer's markets, but now it is not that easy.  Many/most states no longer hand out "coupons", "chits", or whatever you want to call them.  Now, it is a plastic card, an "EBT" card (like a debit card).  It is used like a debit card.  At the beginning of the "pay period" the recipient has xxx amount of dollars on the card.  For each transaction, the card is diminished by the "purchase" amount until it reaches $Zero.  IF you are set up to accept credit/debit cards, by jumping through a whole bunch of hoops for your State/County, you may be able to accept EBT cards.  Some Farmer's Markets are set up to do this, but many are not.  It takes several thousands of dollars to get set up to do this as an individual.  Before they tightened it up, there were as many "stores" ripping off the system as there were "recipients" ripping off the system.

It doesn't take several thousand dollars to get set up to take food stamps. There are a lot of ways you can do it. You can get an application from this page:

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/contact_info/brd_toll_free_number.htm

You can get the wireless terminal to accept cards for free if you do $100 worth of foodstamps a month. That's a pretty good deal, since a real-world terminal from a regular credit card processor usually involves a contract for two years (in contrast, a virtual terminal is about $20/mo). You can even just write down the numbers and call them in at the end of the day. But you have to be doing business like a business: have a merchant account at a bank and be registered as a business in your county. Still, that doesn't cost thousands of dollars. 

The UNH has a pdf explaining the various possibilities in detail:

http://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource000816_Rep852.pdf

I'm a merchant. I don't sell food. But if I did, I would be doing this, because it looks like another income stream to me. It's true that you have to spend money to make money. But this looks pretty sweet to me, having experience with taking ordinary credit cards.

For that matter, it is not that big of a deal to accept regular credit cards, especially if you are doing it in the real world like a farmer's market or even a farm stand instead of online. Lots of processors will start you off for nothing and just make you pay for the terminal and the individual transactions. They will take folks with bad credit. There are expenses involved, but the added income can more than outweigh that. When I began taking cards, my income increased by ten times just in the first month. IME, the only time taking cards might not be a good idea is if you are selling an intangible, like a service. But for food? Heck yes.

I had talked a local urban farm supply store to accept EBT, but it turned out that they didn't qualify for the program.  I imagine there's some sort of exception for direct sales, but retailers have to regularly stock food from four or five categories including dairy, meat, and fresh produce.

this store mostly wanted to accept EBT for food plants and seeds, but that wasn't enough to qualify.  it's too bad, because they've got a much better selection of plants and seeds than any place I've ever been to that does accept EBT.

I honestly think its very embarrassing to be reviving food stamps. I'm perfectly able to work and to grow my own food. I just don't have a place to do so. But to ad injury to insult how many people notice that line on the application where they say they can take back all benefits from your estate wen you pass on? At least that's the case in OR. Annoyingly i have been trying to look up the exact rule that i seen on the application but cant find it now. I can't remember the statute number. But i can remember the approximate wording going something like this. On the event of your death all SNAP benefits can be refunded from your estate once all surviving children are 18. And i remember there being language saying that if you give a significant amount of your estate to your kids before your death they are responsible for repayment. Now while i admit i don't remember exact wording i do remember what was being said. It said that the sate can take back the money they gave you wen you die. In my experience wen a state agency can take money they generally do take it. Wen i asked about that in my case interview my case worker said " i don't know i haven't had that explained to me. But its probably just to take back over payments" To be honest i think it all seems a bit fishy to me.

The Farmer's Market in Floyd, Virginia is also set up with the (LOCALLY FUNDED BY DONATIONS) Program which will double the amount of food stamps of a recipient. They have a remote computer set up to do the transactions. And the person is given wooden tokens to pay the vendors. NOt wooden nickels! Then the vendors are reimbursed through the Farmer's Market.

THIS IS great for those on smaller incomes, because they are able to purchase locally grown food within their budget.

It has been so successful in just the few weeks they've been doing it.

What a blessing.

I think more states have to figure ways to make this work for them.  If you spend your money, or food stamps in a supermarket, 90% of the purchases are from out of state sources, and most markets are owned by corporations out of state.  When you spend your money at a Farmer's Market, that money stays within the community, making the community stronger for everybody.  The sad fact is that most farmer's markets are too expensive for food stamp recipients to afford.  The quality is better, but for somebody on a very fixed food budget, the pricing is out of the picture.

I'm currently filling out my application to accept SNAP benefits at the farm.  pretty simple.  extremely simple, actually.  I'm not certain yet, but I believe that if we qualify, the card reader for EBT cards will be free because we've got a phone line available.  a wireless card reader would be up to me to buy, though.

I'm also working on getting a WIC retailer application, but I'm not so sure that one's going to work out this season.

bumping this thread because I just received notice that we've been approved to accept SNAP EBT benefits. it was more difficult and time-consuming than I initially believed, but really not that bad.

if anyone else is interested, and I would encourage you to be, start here. you've got to get a USDA account to apply. you can then apply online, but I ran into trouble with that because our operation didn't really fit into the categories on the application very well. I believe that the application has changed since I applied, so it may not be an issue anymore. if the online application isn't working, it's easy to request a paper application be mailed to you.

after you return the application, wait. I got a letter from the USDA about four weeks after the initial application detailing a pretty substantial number of problems with the application. one of them was my fault: I didn't provide a business phone number because we didn't have one at the time. the rest were caused by confusion about what sort of business we are. the typical retailers applying to accept SNAP are grocery stores and convenience stores, so a small farm currently selling only chicken eggs and chestnuts confounded them a bit. then they threw in a few more objections that didn't make any sense, such as claiming that we hadn't supplied the required identification.

I called the contact provided on the letter and left a message. then I called again the next week and left a message. then I called again and got through. that initial conversation was like beating my head against a wall because the contact at the USDA had a really hard time understanding our farm and why we wanted to accept SNAP. it took a lot of patience on both ends of the phone line to work that out, but at the end of it, she let me know that she thought our odds were good, and that she would be looking into it some more.

I got a call the next week from the same gal at the USDA. she was really quite friendly and patient, but clearly a frustrated cog in an unwieldy bureaucracy. I sat down in a comfortable chair with a beer during the call to better relax and remain patient, too. she asked a lot of questions, some several times, and at the end mentioned that there might be somebody coming to take photographs of the place during our business hours.

the next week, I got a call asking what our business hours were. so I expected a visit. while I was trying to make things a bit more presentable, the visitor showed up. another friendly person who didn't work for the USDA, but contracted with them to take photographs of potential SNAP retailers. he took a bunch of pictures, mentioned that it was really cold, complimented our chickens, and was generally pleasant.

the next week, I get another call from our contact at the USDA. she was looking at the photographs and was not pleased. we slowly worked out together what each photograph was, and why having an office in a barn was not going to run off customers or be a health hazard and how Phoenix, Arizona is a lot different than Woodland, Washington. we talked about what would happen if we didn't do any SNAP transactions for six months (we would be removed from the program, but could reapply). we talked about whether it would be a better idea to retract the application and try again later (I decided against that, in part so that I could share the experience with other small farmers). in the end, she said that they would let us know within a few weeks whether we were in or not.

the next day I got another call. she wanted to know if we received any government assistance. I assumed that she meant grant money or commodity subsidies, or other farm stuff. looking back, though, I think it was more about whether we would be trying to buy food from ourselves with our own SNAP benefits. the thought did occur to me, but we don't receive SNAP benefits. my advice would be to not attempt such a scheme.

then, a couple of days ago, I got an e-mail indicated that our application was successful, and that we'll be receiving more information on how to proceed shortly. we were supposed to receive notice within 45 days of submitting the application. that didn't happen, but I don't think it was more than 90 days. not really that bad for the gubmint, all things considered.

a couple of questions remain: I really don't know how we are going to process transactions. the gal at the USDA seemed to think that because we did such low volume, the local office would not be inclined to give us a card reader gratis. I haven't heard from the local office, so I don't know for sure yet. if we don't get a reader, I'm not sure what the alternative is. my guess is that it would be similar to the old style manual carbon copy credit card transactions combined with a telephone call to make sure there are remaining benefits. potentially a minor hassle, but not really a big deal.

I'm also wondering what will need to happen when we start selling more than just the eggs. at the time of the application (and currently), we were only selling eggs. but relatively soon, we'll be selling fruits, vegetables, mushrooms, seeds, plants, et cetera. I don't think this will be a big deal unless my very small beehive business takes off and grosses more than all the food. that seems unlikely to happen.

and that's about all I know for now. I would encourage more small farmers and nurseries and seed sellers to apply. I'm in the county with the third highest rate of SNAP recipients in the state, so this seems like a pretty good opportunity to make good food available to more folks and gain access to a substantial market. whether or not anybody will choose to spend their benefits at our place over Wal-Mart remains to be seen, but I'm optimistic.

I deleted a post here because it seemed to suggest that somebody on permies.com was less than perfect.

This is a challenging topic.

I think it is important to keep in mind that each person has their own bucket of standards. Because one person subscribes to a philosophy does not mean that they demand all others to subscribe to the same philosophy.

I am worried that this is getting too political. I think this is an important topic and want to ask folks to find a path to express your stuff while at the same time respecting the positions of others.

Along those lines, I will make a feeble attempt to express some of my own political points on this. Granted, when it comes to politics, I am an ignorant boob, so I really have no business even pontificating in this space.

A few tidbits:

114: it bothers me that people can use foodstamps to buy pop, candy, sugar cereal, steak, oreos and all sorts of expensive junk food. I would prefer (and again, what the hell do I know about the full issue) that they could be used for simple, cheap, staple foods.

115: I recognize that the food stamp system is primarily an ag subsidy program. The fact that it helps people in need is a side effect and a PR tool.

116: My (limited) understanding is that the food stamps are way too hard to get by some folks that desperately need it. That seems really wrong.

117: My (limited) understanding is that when people have the foodstamps, they have a fortune for food - far more than they need.

118: When I see people begging for money for food, I want to be able to think to myself "I know there is plenty of good food available for anybody who asks so what they really want is hooch or dope."

119: I also think there could be some folks that need food and shelter. And a clean shower.

120: I like the idea that if I seriously screw up (or if nefarious people have screwed me up), I can always find a bare minimum food and shelter package.

121: And I think anybody should be able to find a food/shelter package that is at least as good as the prison package. People committing crimes should not get it better/easier than people that don't commit crimes.

122: So I think the quality/quantity of this stuff should be dropped a lot, and the access should be made way easier. I suspect that less can be spent on forms and nosy social workers.

123: I like the idea that there can be simple cafeterias that will sell a freaky cheap meal for, maybe, two bucks a pop. Breakfast could be oatmeal and two eggs. Lunch could be PB&J. Dinner could be burger patty, green beans and a roll. Maybe it will even be the exact same meal every day. And folks that need it, could get it for free. And by "need it", it means they say "need it" and they get a card or something. They use their card instead of paying. If they get two cards, who cares? I can go in and eat with these guys by laying down two bucks. If I wanted to, I could get a card.

I think it is perfectly fair for somebody to say "I choose to not play with the food stamp program" on their own set of values.

I find this whole topic really, really difficult. I don't see much in the way of obvious answers. I think it is fair to discuss and we can each figure out what sets best with our own values.

I agree with paul. We are eligble for food stamps but chose not draw it.

ok tax rant gone.