Tansy Arron-Walker

My husband and I recently bought a 60 acre property in Indiana and are setting up our homestead. Super exciting :)

One of the first things we want to do is plant a windbreak/privacy screen along two sides of the property. We want to use the Miyawaki Technique as explained by https://www.afforestt.com/methodology to give the trees a good start. We have ordered 9,000 saplings from the state nursery, to be picked up in spring.

If all my calculations are right I need:

- 8,000KG (8tons) of mulch (straw, woodchips etc)

- 30,000KG (32tons) of perforator material (chipped corn husks, rice husk etc - something dry and fluffy to help keep the soil aerated)

- 30,00KG (32 tons) of water holding material (coco peat, sawdust etc. Something you can wring a lot of water out of once it gets damp.)

- 19,000KG (20 tons) of compost.

Usually if I want soil amendments I go to my compost heap or my local gardening store to buy a 50lb bag, but at these quantities I have no idea where to start.

Would love to hear any suggestions for regional materials that might work well, and for places to contact about buying these large quantities!

(Also, if anyone has free time in spring, we have 9,000 trees to plant and will provide pizza and beer to anyone willing to help!)

Thank you 😊

[edited to fix units - 30,000kgs not 30,000 tons 😨]

Accidentally double posted.

I’ve tried this with google earth and sketch up but was really struggling to get accurate elevation data.

I eventually ended up using free lidar data from http://opentopo.sdsc.edu/login which got me incredible accuracy (I can see individual trees and the power poles on the side of the road)

I’ve been using QGIS (free and open source) to generate topo lines at whatever scale I want (currently using 50cm) and generate channel diagrams (where water collects and flows across our land?

QGIS is super powerful but can be a bit frustrating when learning to use it. I’ve also added a plugin that lets me export my data as an STL file so I can 3d print the place :)

Once you’ve generated topo lines it’s easy to export the shape file to google earth so you can draw in your ponds and swales there with more accurate information.

Good luck!

Dillon Nichols wrote:

Upside... when else will you get a chance to come tearing into the house screaming 'THE WEASEL-HIGHWAY IS ON FIRE!!1'?

😂 I’m dying. Thank you for the laugh first thing this morning

I’m not too worried about fire as we’re in a very well hydrated area (40+ inches of rain a year, spread out pretty evenly.) but it’s definitely a good thing to keep in mind!

Dillon Nichols wrote:

I am meaning predators in the weasel family; around here the big deal is mink. Since I hope to have ducks and maybe chickens if I can address the major eagle threat, these are definitely critters I want to keep out.

I figure dogs will be the answer.. but if I do end up with hedges I will position them well away from planned poultry areas. I guess a small enough dog might be able to chase such predators into the fence, but I really don't like yappers, and in any case it would probably get munched by a cougar or some such.


Another downside that has been on my mind. Won't apply everywhere...

The most common highly appealing native plant for this use in my area is the crabapple.

A salmon creek flows through my property. Along with the eagles this also means I have an extra strong black bear population, who eat a *lot* of crabapples. I have seen them feeding from my window, and there is an enormous amount of bear scat on my roads/trails comprised primarily of crabapple skins/pits.

I figure any hedgerow laden with useful food producing trees/shrubs is going to look like lunch to these guys. It may also draw coons. Maybe longer thorns than the crabapples would slow them down... but maybe not, too!


In reality, reviewing my list of things I wish to keep out...
I think a classic living fence would work fine for deer, dogs, and wolves. I don't have coyotes, and the wolves don't come down this far very often at all. I've yet to see a stray dog, I hear people are really... proactive... about this in my area.

The cougars will jump anything of practical height. The bears and coons seem likely to be drawn in. Small weasely things seem likely to be assisted. The beavers will probably not be deterred but it might slow them down while they eat it..

It seems like it would work fine as a secondary barrier to keep things *in*. I am not sure how well it would stand up to goats and hogs without electric in between... maybe alright in fast rotations but not sacrifice paddocks?

If anyone has any experience to confirm or deny my theories I'd love to hear it! At this point I think the closest I will come is strategically planted living fenceposts, primarily as interior fences so that I can hopefully exclude the bears from climbing them..

Wow! You have a ton of nearby predators!

I am informed we are in “Northern East-Central Mid West” which... really? Those are terrible directions. We’re about an hour south of Indianapolis. So, mostly flat, covered in corn fields, and with 40+ inches of rain spread evenly over the year.

So, no bears, no cougars, but a bunch of white dudes with rifles and glyphosate. :( I’m hoping to eventually attract a beaver. Tons of white tailed deer and the major threat to the chickens are the turkey vultures and my mother in laws eldest dog.

The intended grazing strategy is to be moving animals ~daily, so I’m hoping browsing pressure is just enough to keep the hedges lightly trimmed. If I end up needing a sacrifice area I will fence it with something even goats won’t eat (or at least nailed down well enough they can’t eat it.)

I can only hope to one day be concerned about the kinds of predators you’re dealing with!

Tj Jefferson wrote:Bryant,

You have been the inspriation for much of this single handedly. If you and Greg Judy had a love child, it would look like me, pretty sure.

Pretty sure you and I are twins then.

Tj Jefferson wrote:I am a big fan of hedges, but the amount of time maintaining them almost cannot be emphasized enough. Otherwise you just have a hedgerow, which is great for maintaining humidity but lousy for stock control. Once you have shade, any break in the hedge will not grow in.  I think in England they figure they can lay about 10 yards per day. Mark Shepard's layout would take most of your time, our silvopasture layout calls for tree rows every 30-40'. I would do nothing but lay hedge. I did the math, moving a portable fence is a major time saver, I can move polywire in about ten minutes and net in 20 minutes, and even with a hedge you still have to "cap" the rows with electric.

Just do the math and come to your own conclusion. With rotation, you only are using the hedge a couple times a year.

Thanks Tj! hedge maintenance is the one `con` that really worries me. From what I've read so far, mature hedges end up about 2 meters wide if not trimmed back, and laying frequency gets quoted everywhere between 8 and 50 years. I'm still working out the precise plan for my alleys, so I'll have to work out exactly how many hours of labor to expect from that, but my boundary line is ~2500yards - which at your estimate of 10 yards a day would be 250 days of labor over ~15 years, or about 17 days of work a year. Yikes.

It’s not possible to have standard charges for hedge laying: if the hedge is overgrown, 20ft high and gappy, an expert could do three or four yards a day. A new hedge, clear of weeds, about 8ft–10ft tall, would allow a man of average skill to do about 30 yards a day. [...] The work is expensive, but a trimmed hedge can last 50 years before it has to be relaid. A good average is 15-20 years.

- https://www.countrylife.co.uk/gardens/how-to-lay-a-hedge-31977

This one seems a little more optimistic - 2500 yards at 30 yards a day is 83 days of labor over ~15 years, or 6 days of work a year.

Still, I'd better find some friends who want to learn to lay hedge!

Trace Oswald wrote:

Chris Kott wrote:

Though I think there might be a difference in how you select species for an exterior perimeter fence versus internal dividing fences.

That is my thought as well.  I would do an interior row much differently than I am doing my perimeter fence.  I am building hedgerows interior to my property lines, but they are native species that feed my wildlife rather than "fences".  I have hazelnut, hackberry, nine bark, and some others.  The DNR has yearly sales of native species for about $1 a piece, so those are the main trees/shrubs making up my interior hedgerows.  

The perimeter fence is to keep my dogs and animals in, and people out and large animals out.  I'm not concerned about the aforementioned weasel-highway.  If I have small animals that want to leave, that's fine, and if I have them trying to enter, the dogs and cats can deal with that.

Great tip on the DNR sales! Thank you! I've been looking at the Indiana state nursery which also has great deals on bare root natives (including hawthorn and hazel, which are definitely on my list!)

Chris Kott wrote:I love the idea. I have described how I want to employ it in my case in several threads.

My take on it was actually to build swales on-contour with hugelbeet elements to them (anchored with wooden stakes pounded in to the height of the hugelbeet). The alleys themselves would form paddocks, and I would move animals around by shifting electronet fencing and tractors, where applicable.

I would also be concerned about harvesting. My ideas about food hedges as livestock-proof fencing revolve around not having to get in the hedge, but rather training the branches to be where I need them to be for harvest, if it's an issue.

I think that it's ultimately a great idea, though the weasel highway idea does give me pause. I think it might be necessary to choose species and training/pruning regimens that don't require you to contend with the fence at all.

Though I think there might be a difference in how you select species for an exterior perimeter fence versus internal dividing fences. I don't think you'd want the thorniness so much in places you need to go to harvest food.

-CK

I'm planning for the majority of the land to be in oak/chestnut/pecan savannah with an understory of hazel and berries, so I'm not too worried about the harvesting. Agreed I should probably pick non-thorny species for the internal fences where I may have to get in amongst it.

Glad to know there are others thinking about this! I'll check out your other threads!

Eric Hanson wrote:Tansy,

I personally think the idea of a living fence is a great one.  I sort of have a living fence on part of my property, but I am sure it is not stock proof.  I really know it is not deer proof.  Osage orange makes an unbeatable living hedge in my opinion.  The “tree” grows fast, the wood is very strong and the thorns sharp.  

On the downside, due to the wood’s strength, it will be among the hardest of woods to work and the sharp thorns leave welts on my skin when they scrape even a little.

FWIW, my personal opinion is that a living fence is best used as a multi functional investment.  The stock proof fence is only one use.  An Osage fence will eventually provide you with the very best, hottest, longest burning firewood you can find anywhere.  The wood is very useful for handles if you have the interest.  Add in some additional varieties of plants and you can shelter all sorts of birds and other wild life.

Could you possibly start off with a strand of wire (barbed or otherwise) to give the vegetation something to grow onto?  My living fence is centered on an old barbed wire fence that has become over grown.  When I look at pictures from when we first bought the property 16 years ago, the wire fence was still visible and the vegetation barely topped the fence posts.  Today the fence is completely obscured, the vegetation is 20-30 feet tall and we have pathways for deer inside the “fence”.  If I did even the slightest maintenance, the fence would be very stock proof.

These are just my thoughts.  I think your idea is a great one.  Please keep us updated on your plans.

Eric

Thank you Eric! I'll do my best to keep updating on our progress.

I've been reading Hedges and Hedgelaying by Murray Maclean, which has a ton of plant recommendations but is so far entirely focussed on Britain. I've been tossing up on ossage orange - I love that it's fast growing and makes such great firewood, but have read of cows choking on the oranges? I don't have a good idea of how large that risk might be though. I've also never seen an ossage orange in person, which is probably reason enough to plant a few :)

We will certainly need some temporary fences to keep the trees and young hedge safe from the deer. I know for sure there are deer walking through the property every day and have picked out at least two regularly used trails.

Would love to see some pictures of your hedge!