I have no idea which seeds it blocks. Found a couple studies, one of which was bermuda grass, which offers some interesting ideas. But the mesquite dumps a ton of leaves every year, and the "pathogen" (or whatever it is called) is water soluble. I know saguaro and cholla cactus do well under mesquite... but who wants that growing near the yard and house? Cholla has its use, but as a crop? It's main mission in life is to litter a mile around itself with horrendous evil poky things.

Currently, I have 5 "tire gardens" under a canopy of several mesquites, growing lemon balm, several mints, tumeric, and ginger, and a couple ashwagandha plants. None were started from seed, the soil was mixed from compost and native dirt and brought from another part of the yard, and all are doing well in the shade. I also have some periwinkle and canna bulbs, and even comfrey growing in another shady mesquite spot. Growth rate has not been inspirational, but they are all alive and showing slow progress. And again, none started from seed, they are all transplants.

Just figured its worth pointing out that mesquite has this "property", in case someone is trying to grow a flower garden under the nice big shady mesquite tree in the yard, and not having any luck germinating...  Your ideas for amending the situation sound feasible and worth a try. Or germinate elsewhere and transplant.

I just discovered that mesquite tree litter will prevent the germination of some seeds. So much for my idea of growing in the shade of the mesquites, or using all that built up mulch... Something to consider when growing seeds in the Tucson desert.

Thanks Jennifer, that segment of the book was awesome. Exactly what I was looking for!

I'm working with a lady who has an "orchard" in Tucson - a couple dozen various fruit trees, such as apple, peach, apricot, fig, pomegranate, etc. They are all several years old (approx. 4-6 yrs? And all are mature enough to be producing fruit.) The trees are mixed amongst each other, so she can't run a separate line to each type of tree. So the irrigation now is a "one size fits all" system. I don't think there is much in the way of mulch, other than weeds/grass that manages to grow, but mulching is part of the immediate plan.

I'm not that familiar with the desert climate, and was wondering if anybody has thoughts on how much water each tree should be getting? And should there be a plan to apply additional water when flowering and when the fruit is getting ripe?

So, here's a company that is using a wind turbine to create power to run it's own built-in condenser and heat exchanger, etc... 1,000 liters per day!

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/intelligent-energy/a-turbine-that-makes-water-from-the-desert-air/14701

Another last minute guy.... I'm needing a place to stay. Haven't thought about camping until just reading this, so I'm glad I found it. It's just me, and I'll be driving in from Arizona. Debating on taking my car or my suburban. Since sharing a camp site is so much cheaper, I might bring the Suburban and then I can bring more gear to make it comfortable - like extra coolers for keeping food, some extra cast iron pans, etc. And I'll have room for hauling 5 extra people on the commute.

Nick Kitchener wrote:
The friction in this situation I see would be around the varying "ethical" points of view, especially around permacultural practice.

Unless you only accept people who are just like you, then you will have some who want to use heavy equipment to build infrastructure, while others want to raise and eat animals, while others don't want either of that.

Nick, I think you are describing the exact reason why a leader always emerges in a group. As Michael points out, the vast number of people DO NOT want to participate in the decision and building phase - i.e. they want to be led. If you try to have the entire community come together and agree on all design aspects of the overall community, you have the classic "too many chefs in the kitchen" crisis. If a small group works out the overall design, then people who want to join know up front what is going on, and can decide if the design "violates their ethics" to the point of making it a deal breaker for them. I imagine most people would be ok with a lot of variations, as long as they have enough of their own space and the freedom to "do it their way" in their own space.

If the leader doesn't become a ruler, you won't have friction from people resisting the control-freak.

If the people purchase their space, then they can't be kicked out (absent extreme cause). Therefore you would preserve/encourage autonomy, diversity, and freedom of individual thought and beliefs. Everyone has to learn to tolerate differences of opinion, and learn to not be obnoxious and pushy with their own beliefs. You'll have occasional friction between individuals, but everyone gets to grow up and work it out because "the kickout game" is not an option. This will also help prevent a leader from trying to become a ruler.

I think once the community is established, the "leadership" should be divested of any power to MAKE rules or design changes.

Assaf Koss wrote: I suspect that pretty much every person on permies.com chooses to join the discussion, because we are looking for an escape from state and social controls in our own lives. Permaculture aims for locality, while states and societies aim for wide-spread generalization. They negate each other. I suggest, strongly, that telling people what to do (or not to do), results in less productivity and less satisfaction from all participants.

The conclusion that can be derived from this is that our entire social effort should be in the design of our spaces, and not in the regulation of our fellow people.

I'm very much in agreement with your approach, Assaf. I suspect I'm not communicating very well, though.

Assaf Koss wrote:
The solution I offer for discussion, is having a design that is agreed upon, by all those who wish to join the community.

I think one major aspect to consider is the initiation of a community project. If there is no community, then how do you wrangle a herd of people into the commitment and discussion stage for discussing the design? On the other hand, if you do have an existing community, then newcomers who want input on the design will be highly disruptive to all that has been accomplished. Another issue is that if a guy has a certain amount of land, and wants to be the "founder" and start a community on HIS land, you will have the difficulty of a guy not wanting to give up control to the hoard that is moving into HIS space and using HIS resources.

The model I envision would be a small group of Founders who hash out a basic plan, then pitch the idea to private *investors and prospective residents simultaneously. The investors would want to know there is significant interest. The prospective residents would need to know this project will be funded and will become a reality. Residents would have to "purchase" their land in some fashion (lifetime lease, control rights over a designated piece of land by way of contract, ownership shares in an LLC or Trust, etc.), and those combined purchase prices should pay for most (if not all) of the real estate for the community. This process of selling all the resident spots will be slow, and might straggle out 2-5 years, so you get investors to front the whole amount needed to launch it properly and buy the land and build the infrastructure. The investor gets paid as each homestead gets sold, the community launches essentially debt free, and everyone focuses on getting their own stuff in order. The hope is that "if you build it, they will come". People want a "sure thing", a functioning project, security to know they aren't going to buy in and have the thing go bankrupt.

[* private investors are NOT "loaning" you money! You are not seeking a bank loan, or getting trapped in the debt slavery system with interest and monthly payments! Investors are buying in, and taking an ownership interest until they are bought out by way of residents buying in. Investors get paid as the money comes in. NO clause for foreclosure if a monthly payment cannot be made, etc.]


On the leadership issue: There is a big difference between a "leader" and a "ruler". Perhaps make sure the Leader is actually an office filled by someone (or a group of 3-5 someones) selected by the residents from among the residents. The holders of this office should be easily replaced. And never convey "power" to this office. Replace anyone who shows any signs of wanting to be a Ruler. The Leadership office should remain an administrative function, merely a point of contact so outsiders have a face and a name to deal with, and residents have a contact person who "knows what's going on" so problems, issues, and discussions can be brought to a central place. Someone to handle coordination of projects and ideas and handle paperwork and project a unified vision and goal.

I think if a person actually "owned" a piece of land in the community, and were fully and completely responsible for building their own house and developing their own homestead, you would automatically attract only the right kind of people. Having private property in this manner leads to an automatic respect for other people's rights and autonomy/independence. Exchanges between people are then voluntary, and a free market based on fair exchange can develop to everyone's benefit. I think this leads to supporting the original posters main point:

The design will be similar to a standard Permaculture design of a property, only it will expand over the entire land of the community, and put emphasis on how the different lots (houses) interact, while remaining independent entities.

If a guy can buy an acre for under $5k, and roll in with an $800 RV he bought off craigslist, you have achieved affordability and an instant functional population. Recycle the old RV's as people build, and sell them to new incoming residents.

Call the residents "Stewards" and show them how their land interacts with their neighbor's land in the grand Permaculture Design for the whole community, and set the interaction rules accordingly..

I realize that plans such as this are not a literal final product, and technicalities and details get worked out along the way by the common sense of the builders. But I have a few questions that come to mind based on the drawings.

1. Will the roof be covered in dirt? If so, how will you keep it up there and still allow water drainage? I ask because it seems typically that an earth roof runs into the earth berm and you have an uninterrupted "dirt flow" that holds itself in place and lets water flow through the soil naturally. This design appears to have the roof elevated from the ground all the way around.

2. Will you backfill dirt against the sides and down-hill side? If so, what are you planning to use for siding/shoring material? I've never heard Mike admit or even acknowledge it, but his "approved design" of using 2x6 tongue and groove siding *always* fails, even on spans as small as 4 feet, and even with a soil depth as low as 3 feet. Thin walls like that always bulge in. Bulging means there was movement. Movement creates a high risk of perforating the waterproofing material. And bulging walls are ugly, and a bit scary. This design here shows 10 foot spans. The pictures of the actual site don't indicate much of an excavation, so maybe the sides won't be very deep into the ground on the actual structure?

3. The design looks like it will be dark inside. But perhaps the building won't be as far underground as the drawing shows?

4. What kind of discussions have been going on regarding the "ATI" part of WOFATI? Will you spread out an "umbrella" around the structure? What about use of earth tubes and that sort of thing?

I realize linux has been declared "unacceptable", and the specs on this near-future device don't quite match what Paul is looking for, but WOW, this device would be an amazing piece of equipment to own! I think the "laptop" concept will be obsolete long before an "eco-laptop" demonstrates its worthiness.



They fell short of their crowd funding goal, but in a 30 day run got over $13 MILLION pledged!

EDIT: apparently the forum software / youtube tag doesn't like youtube's "share" link with the "youtu.be" domain?

Ben Plummer wrote:On the main forum list the light bulb icon next to the thread indicates a new post, it is yellow if there is something new, white if not. Same with the folder icon if you are in an an individual forums list or in the recent topics list.

That's what I thought, and it sounds reasonable. But for some reason, that's not the case for me. For instance, I see that there is a post dated today in the Trees forum, but I have never visited that forum area, and the light bulb is not lit. Same with Forest Garden, except I have viewed that in the recent past, but the post dated today did not cause the light bulb to get lit.

Same goes for the yellow folders. Right after I posted this thread, I went to a forum area and saw 2 yellow folders on topics, but I know that the next 2 topics definitely had new posts since I last viewed them, but they did not have yellow folders. Right now, I'm not seeing ANY yellow folders in ANY forum area at all. It is as if the yellow folders are set to go away across the whole site after you visit the site, regardless of whether you view the specific topics or not.

I suppose this could be a design feature, presuming that people would visit, view all topics that have yellow folders and light bulbs, then leave. All indicators go off presuming that you have viewed all new topics that you care to view? If so, it might be useful to have this feature explained in detail? Exactly what action causes the lights to go off, and when, etc.

I don't know the intent, so I don't want to call it a bug. Just trying to figure it out.

Oh, and thanks for the link to "recent topics". I did not know that existed. That link will help me a lot.

This video is more of a business plan / business model for using permaculture land development to create a healing center. He describes an interesting business model for having employees live on site, but not much at all about "community".

It amazes me how much potential there is for an agriculture-based business to wipe out expenses to create an awesome net income. The land should be able to support what you are doing, and not need vast amounts of imported Stuff to make it work. You just need Good Design. He makes it look so simple.

All forum software I have ever used has an indicator on threads to indicate "there are new posts in this thread since the last time you looked at it". There doesn't seem to be any such indicator here, and so I have to click every topic to check, or else I have to somehow remember when I last checked each topic and see if there is something since then (impossible to do, even for people with good memory). If such a feature is implemented here, I cannot seem to figure it out. Could someone be so kind as to clarify for me? If it doesn't exist, it sure would be handy.

Hi Bob,

I'm thinking someone considering your situation would probably need to know a lot of info about the community you are moving to. Can you tell us anything about them? Do they have a website?

Concerning condensation, I would suggest that because there is no insulation between the wall and the dirt, then the dirt (especially right against the wall) is going to be at the same temperature as your interior air ALL THE TIME, and it is temperature differential that causes condensation. And, remember, you will have several tons of dirt pressing that plastic against the wall. There will not be room for condensation to form anyway. A third issue that comes to mind as I'm sitting here is that my understanding is you need to have microbial/bacterial activity for wood rot to occur, am I correct? I've heard tales of people storing logs under water in a lake for decades, so water alone doesn't cause rot. As mentioned, there is no space between the walls and the plastic, and there shouldn't be access for the proper bacterial activity to cause rotting either, and assuming you are using a suitably rot-resistant wood for the siding, and the above factors mentioned, I cannot see rot ever being a problem for the plastic-against-wood-walls situation.

Regarding the posts in the ground, the PSP method specifically calls for wrapping the posts in several layers of garbage bags and taping the top tight around the post. If you don't tear the bags during install, and have the posts on the INSIDE of your house where it is always dry, how will moisture ever get to them to rot them out? Keeping the soil dry around the outside of your underground house is a primary objective in the first place, otherwise you won't receive any of the benefits of building underground.

Mike's original house is over 40 years old, and does not suffer at all from either of these concerns (rotting posts or rotting wood siding.) And, btw, I'm speaking from personal first hand recent inspection of the structure. There are other points in his system that are consistently failing, but these two issues aren't among the faulty ideas.

Hi. Can you provide more information on what you are offering and what the arrangements would be? Housing, income, expenses, expectations, food, utilities, etc? Are you looking for an employee or offering an equity exchange? It sounds like it could be a great opportunity, and I'd love to hear back from you and discuss details.

The greenhouse looks awesome. One thing I notice is that you are insulating the building. Perhaps you have a reason for that, but in general, the whole entire point of "underground" or "earth bermed" or "earth integrated" is to use the thermal mass of the earth. If you insulate the building, you lose all the value of the dirt. Ideally, after you get it all back filled with dirt, you would want to put insulation on TOP of the dirt, and a layer of plastic over that to waterproof the area.

The highest campsite available at basecamp.

Franklin Stone wrote:Insulation is a decoupling of thermal mass, to prevent the transmission of heat energy. Underground is not insulated, but rather, buffered by a large thermal mass. The ground temperature below the frost line is usually the average of your year-round temperatures.

I'm just reading the book "Passive Annual Heat Storage". (The author's son is getting ready to release an updated and revised version soon.) Franklin's statement is the whole basis of this book. Except, they instruct you to take control of the "year-round temperatures" by way of insulation and using the house as the control mechanism, thereby establishing what average temperature the soil will hold.

After wading through all the intricate technical details all the way through the book, the author makes a nice application of his principles by showing this concept of making an underground freezer on one page near the end. The point being, you must lower the temperature of the ground around your cold room to the freezing point. The whole book is about SETTING an average temperature into the dirt that surrounds your building. So, SET that temperature really low!

Basically, he suggests using upside down earth tubes to an underground room. BUT, as the whole book discusses, you MUST have the "umbrella" (waterproof and insulated) over the house and 20' of soil in all directions in order to control that average temperature. The earth for 20' out in all directions then becomes your thermal mass and you have no need to add mass inside your cold room.

The idea is that you have earth tubes going UP from the room (you need two so that it can "breathe" - cold air coming in must move warmer air out). So, you have a room underground with tubes up through the earth. The tubes are open all winter, allowing cold air to fall into the room and warm air to escape. The soil releases its heat into the room all winter, the warm air escaping and new cold air dropping in, drawing the temperature of the surrounding soil down to the freezing point (heat always moves to cold). After sucking the heat out of the soil all winter long, you now have 20' of frozen thermal mass to keep your stuff cold all summer long. After a year or two, your storage room will set an average annual temperature somewhere in the frozen range. This should create a passive freezer that keeps frozen all year around, with zero operating cost and no moving parts!

Of course, this requires winter temperatures that drop below freezing...

As Mike Oehler has pointed out for over 40 years, DO NOT insulate your underground structures from the surrounding soil! And the next step, as shown in Passive Annual Heat Storage, is to use a waterproof umbrella 20' out and insulate that soil from the atmosphere.

So, what happens in 5 years or so, after this stuff is applied, and reapplied, and washed down into your rain water harvesting irrigation storage pond (or fish pond, or cattle watering pond, etc.)? Is it going to get concentrated and start killing fish or making cattle ill or sterilizing soil that gets watered from the pond? I imagine a guy would need special equipment and storage space to use this stuff on several miles of road?

I wonder if anybody has ideas on controlling (suppressing) dust on long gravel roads? Not necessarily out in the pasture, but on busy roads that go past houses, but would still be safe for gardens and fruit trees along the way.

Joel Berg wrote:HI Everyone!

3) Major capital investment or retirement based luxury gated communities. Normally found in places like Costa Rica filled with very upper middle class where 50,000USD + was your “buy in” to join.

How do you own land, build individual houses, put up fencing, build a barn, purchase animals, put in a garden, pay for water and electricity, buy machinery, and generally cover all the basics for living for less than $50k each?

John Strohl wrote:Paul,
If what I'm hearing from you is correct, I am a potential candidate. ... I would obviously need whatever the current plans/blueprints are for manufacturing, production requirements, and other operational expectations.

John, I suspect that you are correct in your assessment, but Paul is merely dropping a hint here at a business opportunity. I don't imagine that HE wants to assist you in getting started. You probably want to contact E&E and discuss the plans, blueprints, materials requirements, and other details to be sure YOUR business is manufacturing exactly what they designed. After you know exactly what it will take to start producing them, you work up your start-up cost estimates, do a Kickstarter project, and launch your business. THEN Paul will market and advertise the heck out of your business through his empire. I could be wrong... but that's what I see going on here.

My wife and I are looking for a place to work and live this year. Ideally, we are looking for something long-term. We need food, housing, and maybe some sort of opportunity to earn some cash. We've been studying permaculture, and want to work on a farm that embraces permaculture design principles. We have a lot of farm and garden experience, and have a fair amount of experience with and knowledge of livestock, especially small livestock and chickens. We would be an asset to your farm, and can "hit the ground running". Would love to experience the "off-grid lifestyle". Willing and able to take on a lot of responsibility.

Our preference at this time is a place in southern Colorado, New Mexico, or Arizona. Will consider other locations. We require a drama-free, drug-free, non-smoking environment, and people who value and respect an honest agreement and keeping their word. Contact me soon, lets discuss options, opportunities, possibilities, good food, and hard work!

Dave Turpin wrote:

Edward Jacobs wrote:I'm talking about 200-300 households on a 5-10k acre property.

So between 726 and 2178 square feet per household including growing room? Can you say "imminent cannibalism"?

That's 5,000 - 10,000 acres. 300 households at 5 acres apiece would only take 1500 of it.

I've been working out plans on my own to do something very much like this, and I too started with the "Free State Project" sort of mentality in mind. I would want to create a private village/town/community that exists pretty much independently of the "system" outside its borders. I'm talking about 200-300 households on a 5-10k acre property. There could be 2-5 people in each home. Anywhere between 600 and 1200 people in the village! But I am completely new to the idea of "intentional community" living. I suspect there is a (very low) limit to how many people can live together in a collectivist arrangement before it comes unglued. But this thread started with contemplating enough people to alter the political climate of a county... so large scale issues have to be worked out.

The first issue I keep worrying about is what do you do when the Zoning nazis show up and tell you that you can't have that many houses on your property? Or the cow nazis show up and tell you that you can't drink your own cow's milk? I've studied law enough to know I am prepared to fight those battles, but if 90% of the community caves in with worry and fear, there is no chance of defending yourself against ANY so-called legal action the system might bring against you. Meaning, there would need to be provision for studying law as part of everyone's duty to protect the community. But the larger the land, the safer you are because the bureaucrats aren't likely to drive 2 miles into private property just to confront you with some alleged "code violation". Especially if the driveway is gated and the No Trespass signs posted, etc. But still, what if?

Then there is the legal structure of ownership. Do all the prospective members join together and form an LLC or create a Trust? What about future members wanting to move in? Who gets designated to handle the corporation's paperwork? Who handles the collective community finances? How do you prevent them from skimming money? Is the land officially sub-divided and recorded by deed at the county recorders? This creates multiple properties and the idea of "sharing" anything becomes a 100% trust issue between the people, and like it or not people fight and disagree and get mad at each other. What if the owner dead-center in the middle gets mad and shuts down his property, thereby physically dividing the whole community? If you "subdivide" the property by internal private contract as part of the community structure, how do you resolve property disputes? With only 5 or 10 homesteads, I suspect these are not going to be too much of an issue. But if you build an actual village and people have the right to individual thought and action and independence, things get sketchy if not structured correctly. People will have significant financial investment into the project. And what happens if someone wants to move out and sell their interest in the community - if the land is not officially deeded to them, what is the likelihood of finding someone who will buy an idea that looks like land? They should be compensated for the work they put into their house, and the improvements in the property they contributed towards. How would you attach a price tag to such things? 10 years in, it will have evolved into something unexpected.

If each homestead gets only a small yard (6-8k square feet?) with a house, then you end up living elbow to elbow like the inner city. I will not live next to a nudist and I despise cigarette smoke. What if one of these moves in 100 feet away from me? I'm living out in the "country" for the peace and quiet and clean air, I don't need a stoned hippie playing bongo drums at 2am right next door. lol. And in this setting, would someone be responsible for running the dairy? Would there be some sort of record keeping to control how much milk each household gets? You can't have 600 people show up every day for dinner at the town hall! And breakfast. And lunch. And midnight snacks. People would want their own kitchen and cooking supplies. Dietary choices would run to the extremes. What about sewer and water in such a high-density living area? And what about electricity?

If you were doing a shared farming situation, who gets appointed as farm manager to ensure the master plan continues on its course? And what do you do when Bob the Slob goes home early every day when the temperature gets too hot, and when you start noticing certain people spending a LOT of time "running errands" or otherwise not sweating beside you all day in the garden toils? If there were 600+ people in the community, it would be easy to drift in the shadows but still "look busy". What about a family situation? If it is a shared lifestyle, everyone would expect everyone to contribute equally. What about babies being born and mom is doing NO work at the community level because her baby and her 2yr old take up 100% of her time? That is 3 people "not contributing", but needing more than others, so how is resources divided up? Would people in this situation be allowed to group together and decide to build a church? Would they have to buy the land for their church? Who do they buy it from? Is there enough land to allow building structures such as a church, or a general store or a restaurant or other private business venture?

Does people envision something of this size and scale being a collectivist commune, or would it be structured and allowed to grow like the towns of 1800's America? Is there private property rights, or is it a socialist type arrangement? Maybe these issues are addressed in the books written on the subject? "Start small, stay small" is a whole different creature than "start big and plan for growth."

I just came across this "local currency" idea a couple days ago, and it looks interesting: Mountain Hours

They call it "organic money". It is specific to Summit County, Colorado, but they seem to have many other counties around the country copying them. Who knows, maybe it will spread?

I just found out about the "slow money" movement literally a couple days ago, so I'm glad to see that mentioned here. Real people investing real assets in their local community is critical to our survival. The Federal Reserve Ponzi Scheme is doing to the American People what the tilling and chemical fertilizer mono-crops did to the land in the 20's. Stripping us bare, and leaving a dusty waste land behind. Borrowing money from the banks is like buying carrots and garlic from China. Just plain bad for everyone.

I was thinking we should check our understanding of the idea of "investment". Typically, we are taught to think of "investing" as a form of making loans - i.e. copying the way the banks do it. What if, instead, those with money "invest" by way of taking part ownership in a local farm-business venture with those who have the know-how and energy to run the business? Then the money guy has a vested interest in the success of the business. The guy with no money gets land to farm and the ability to increase his assets with his hard labor. They guy with money gets an income and/or food from this new farm. One day, the farmer can buy out the money partner, and they both part ways better off than they started, and the community has a good healthy stable and reliable local food source. The investor can then start over and help another farmer get started.

On the other hand, if money is just "borrowed", then it is impersonal and nobody really cares if it fails. The farmer is not out anything, he just surrenders the land. The lender is not out anything because he already got interest payments and some principal repaid, and can then sell the assets and write of any loss on his taxes. Profit becomes the motivator so the lender is encouraged to seek giant amounts of acreage and huge machinery to invest in because that is more profitable and less effort.

Seems to me that a reasonable "permaculture" investment idea is for a guy with money to create a partnership with a local permaculture farmer and buy a farm for the farmer to work. This would give a permaculture farmer his dream that he otherwise might never obtain, and the "investor" has some control over his investment as part owner, and can help ensure the farm's success by working closely with the farmer. The farmer has to be part-owner, otherwise he is just a "hired hand" and that kills motivation and creativity.

This site has a LOT of land listed:

http://www.landsofamerica.com/america/?Search=region

You can sort by county after you get the whole state's results.

What about taking a different approach... like doing a regularly scheduled weekly live broadcast? Venues such as blogtalkradio.com or livestream.com or even talkshoe.com are all setup for this, and you can have an email sent to remind your listeners every week. A weekly VIDEO broadcast would open all sorts of new opportunities! But just a talk-radio type show would be a real game changer too. This method could build an ever-increasing listener base. The "motivation" issue would be solved - "The show MUST go on!". If it's live, you HAVE to show up and do it, on a schedule, etc. If the show is good, high quality, relevant, and engaging, then you have monetary potential. Advertisers/sponsors take notice, and get serious interest. You could schedule guests, and they would have to make a serious commitment, and when they don't show up to a LIVE show, THEY LOOK REAL STUPID, so they would tend to show up if they say they will. The scheduling of an event tends to make every aspect of it much more serious and "official". And you can do a "call in Q&A" type format where "your people" can actually talk to you live, and people feel important and involved in your show when they can participate, so your listeners take it much more serious too. Don't try to take money from the masses, take it from the sponsors who will be glad to throw money at you when you can demonstrate 10,000+ active listeners live every week, plus thousands more listeners who download the show later.

And then there is the matter of language. Don't shoot the messenger, but I'm just saying that the masses who you want to reach have an ingrained mentality that says "serious people don't need to swear to make their point". If you want to be a rebel hippy that "does his own thing" and just talk vulgar and say whatever you feel like, then don't expect the money to participate - expect freeloaders who enjoy crass-talking attitude. The sponsors with the money will have "business ethics" that cringe heavily in regards to profanity. It just works that way. It seems a small enough "compromise" that will in no way affect your message. I'm just saying.... it's worth considering, and it won't hurt. Nobody will quit listening because they did NOT hear "the f word". Some people enjoy that language style, but they won't go away if you "clean it up". Lots and lots and lots of people do not enjoy hearing profanity, and will quietly label it as "unprofessional" and not take you serious at all - and then the money goes away quietly and without a farewell note.


Perhaps chapter-by-chapter book review type podcasts could be done on the side when you have time, and then linked through permies.com somehow, so that traffic will be driven through the site to get to those type of podcasts. Then you can demonstrate traffic levels to the book publisher people and authors, and perhaps even monetize that section of the site by way of google ads or sponsored banners, etc. And the book review podcasts could be attached tightly to a forum topic, so that the book publisher can see comments and discussion resulting from your review, and it keeps their book constantly being publicized as each new forum post is made, and each new reader shows up to read the thread. That would make publishers happy, and the sponsors and advertisers on that section of the site would start to pay off too. Sort of a "commercialized" section of permies, because you ARE discussing commercial material - i.e. a published book.

Just some thoughts. Don't hate me for mentioning the language thing...

Maybe try running the wire down your back, and inside your shirt? Hook the ipod to your belt in the back, or put it in your back pocket.

Of course, hitting pause when someone comes strolling up while talking to you becomes a problem... people who listen to music can just drop the ear phones out, but with a podcast, you don't want to lose your place and miss several minutes while you fumble for the pause button. It never fails for me, that when I don't think to grab my ipod, I work for hours and hours in solitude, often thinking "I should be listening to paul's podcasts right now". Then when I do have my ipod, within minutes of turning it on, someone ALWAYS comes strolling up to chat. Every time. Can't hear what they are saying, can't hear the podcast, pulling off gloves, digging out the ipod, trying to hit pause and not the jump-to-next-podcast button... But wearing it "backwards" does help to keep the shovel handle from ripping it out of your ear.

I got a rudimentary system going, with flimsy planting trays left over from spring. I am getting about 3-4 pounds after 7 days growth, which is obviously not enough but it works to see who likes what for now. The pigs toss the grass around and munch on it and eventually eat it. The chickens like it more every day. The goats... well, the oldest one eats it ok. One goat nibbles but demands her sweet feed grain mix. One would rather stand there hungry while being milked than to touch the stuff. I read that goats aren't normally grass eaters so if they aren't used to grass they won't take to the sprouts very well. Ours have never had a pasture to graze on, except the oldest one. So, we are trying to introduce this to them by feeding them the seeds earlier in the process, like at day 5 when there is only a little bit of greens. They seem more receptive to that. If that doesn't work, we will take them the sprouts at day 4 or day 3. When they start getting the hang of it, we will start feeding them older sprouts until they get used to full 7-8 day growth.

I bought a bag of oats from the feed store. About 20% of it floats and won't sprout. And it seems like barely 40% of the rest will sprout, but didn't grow very well at all. Typical dead crap food that big-ag is pawning off on the world these days. So I'm mixing 50-50 with this junk oats and some good wheat, and putting larger amounts into the growing tray to compensate. I guess a key factor is to buy "seed-grade" grain, and then test a small batch for viability before you purchase large quantities.

Now I need to get bigger trays and figure out a way to automate the watering and draining so this doesn't take up all my time...

I had an Alaskan Malamute for a short period of time. He was bringing me 1 or 2 moles every week. I guess they are like wolves, with that sonar thing going on. I once saw him sit in the middle of the yard and stare at the ground for a very long time. Then the ground moved, and out popped a mole. Didn't even have to dig for it! When he brought up a 7" long "Teddy Bear" one day, I about jumped out of my shoes when I realized I was actually holding a huge giant dead mole...

I read that moles are somewhat territorial, so there isn't supposed to be more than a couple per acre, so theoretically, once you get rid of them, you should be ok for a while?

Is there issues with adding wheat to the feed mixture? We have access to very low cost wheat, so would it be ok to sprout wheat alone as fodder feed (with plenty of hay always accessible)? And also, I was just told that oats are ripened using roundup?? Is that true? And how would one know if the oats you bought at the feed store were sprayed with roundup?

This is a recent article by Mike Adams, "the Health Ranger" at naturalnews.com. He mentions permaculture in the "what's real" section!

http://www.naturalnews.com/037093_fairy_tales_delusion_real_world.html

Ken Peavey wrote:Sometimes it is not about the money, there is no balance sheet, and profit is not the objective. How does a horse riding hobby, done for pure joy, fit into the equation. Is it right to calculate the cost of a mower, compare it to the cost of a horse, then select the lesser cost? Think outside the cashbox. If maximizing profit is the objective, we should all be tilling, fertilizing, and treating our monocrop of GM soy and hiring migrant workers.

Sorry if you are offended Ken. But the very specifically stated point of this thread is: "Does anyone have any idea’s to save cash on feed?" This thread is specifically about "the cash box". I just simply tossed out the suggestion that the horses, if they serve no functional/profitable purpose, are causing the cash problem in question because they prohibit any sort of pasture management on this small of acreage. I'm just stating the obvious, and I did qualify it by saying so. It was just an idea.

And getting back on point, one might also consider sunchokes as a source of additional feed to lower the cost of hay. Perhaps along the border of the garden or house or yard or driveway as a windbreak, and then harvest for goat food later.

And where I'm at, this weed called kocia grows like mad. I heard it called "poor man's alfalfa" because it's almost as nutritious as alfalfa, and grows wild even in poor soil with no expenses for care. I let a small patch of it grow to about 4' tall, then cut them down and dried it to see what kind of hay it would make. So far it looks great, but I haven't offered it to the goats yet to get their opinion.

Surely on 4 acres some sort of feed-crop could be grown? Especially if you can implement some sort of paddock shift system. Every little bit cuts down on the cost of hay. I wonder if it would be possible to barter goat milk for hay? If the price of hay goes up, the price of milk goes up, so it would always stay an equal exchange.

What is the horses for? They are messing up your ability to use the 4 acres productively, so it would seem logical to get rid of them, if they aren't serving a profitable purpose. (I know, people LOVE their horses... I'm just throwing that out there as an obvious possibility...)

With just the goats and chickens, you could segment 3 acres into something like 12 paddocks, and rotate the critters. Maybe 2 or 3 days per quarter acre? Each paddock would have almost a month to recover, so you could grow your own feed for part of the year anyway.

You could grow a giant patch of comfrey to supplement the feed. It grows really fast. With 1 swing of a scythe you could have 10-15 pounds of green awesomeness per day for all the animals to enjoy. You could use grey water to keep it thoroughly watered so it grows even faster.

It is approaching apple season (or maybe there is other fruit trees in your area). Last year we had agreements with nearly everyone in town that had an apple tree in their yard. We went around once or twice per week and picked up all of the windfall out of people's yards. Sorted the good apples for ourselves, and made over 50 gallons of cider, dozens of pounds of dried apples, and other appley stuff. The rest/most went to the animals. That could be a supplement that would cut down on hay requirements, couldn't it? (For some odd reason, I'm suddenly thinking about the book "Dune", and how they reclaimed water with those suits. I'm now imagining truckloads of rotten apples being used as a free source for moisture supplement for the pasture during the drought... lol. Maybe not practical, but it made me laugh thinking about it...)

Maybe a cost/benefit analysis would be in order, at least while the drought continues. Would it be cheaper to buy goat milk from another farmer than it is to feed your goats? You can always get more goats next year, and spend this year building up your infrastructure. If the drought gets worse, everybody will be selling their animals, and it will be impossible to get rid of them. Then you are really stuck.

Heating water with a pile of wood chips is on the top of my wish-list of projects I want to do this year, if only I had access to a sufficient amount of chips. Putting the hot water wood-chip pile inside a greenhouse would serve double duty - free heat source for the greenhouse. Why not run hot water pipes around the planting beds in the greenhouse too, and keep the soil warm this winter with all that free hot water? When the wood chips stop making heat, you have wonderful compost.