Hello,

I live in a house rented for 2 months in north of Scotland.
Climate is cold here and the house is terribly insulated and temperature drops to 13°C (55°F) at night!

The house is rented and I am limited in what I can do in the house. And it´s short-term.
The owner she uses a night storage heater (which I find terribly expensive and unefficient) plus a old fashion wood heater (which seems to work a bit better and cheaper, but far from efficient)
I use mostly the wood heater, trying to keep a good fire throughout the day, and sleeping with a thick blanket at night. But still I crave for a bit some comfort.
Electricity bills here are crazy expensive, and even without using electricity for heating, it still is very expensive to keep just the fridge and hot water for shower in the bathroom (basically I am having a shower every 3-4 days).

Besides wandering around with hot cups of teas and dressing all sweaters I have, what else can I do?
We have a baby (and I also have a couple of tomato plants indoors), so we search to have a much warmer and confortable living room.

I lived in dozens of rented appartments before, but this is so far the coldest house I have ever lived. Bad insulated houses, cold climate and very expensive electricity bills.
Seems to be an ubiquitous problem in north Scotland.

In Iceland, where I permacultured for 5 years, nothing would usually survive in green form over the extreme long winter. Other than "red siberian" kale, and only in some winters.

Some roots were able to overwinter the repeated freezes and thaws, like black salsify, skirret and groundnut (apios americana). Ocasionally a couple of turnips and swedes.
Chives and good king henry were perennial greens but died to the ground overwinter. Rhubarb was the hardiest, surviving right up until near the edge of the ice caps (but still died to the roots).

And I noticed that even nearly all native plants, this far north, either die to the ground, or lose their leaves. Except for juniperus, creeping thyme, a few sedum secies, and native blueberries. The winter is too extreme in Iceland, variable between thick snow covers which turn into ice, thaw, and then form again, many times over the course of a 8 month long winter, that has regular hurricane-force freezing winds.

Another notable exception was dandelion (some overwintered in green form), so providing the only edible perennial green harvestable over the winter.

Hello!

The original book of Permaculture One seems to be quite difficult and rare to find.
It currently lists in Amazon at a very expensive price, but somewhere in the web you can read it for free in French (which I can).

Does anyone knows of anyplace to buy it at a cheap price, in ebook form, or even a free download in english?

It surprises me that such pioneering work is so little known and so rarely sold.

Hello!

I have been in Permies since several years. My diet is mostly vegetarian, sometimes trending towards vegan, sometimes towards pisco-vegetarian. I don´t eat meat since 12 years, but that was first because I didn´t like the taste. Not because of ideological grounds. Though I am a strong environmentalist.

I was vegetarian for about 7 years and since 2011, I began eating fish and seafood more regularly. I drink on and off milk and love butter, but I hate cheese.

I was mostly vegan for about 2 years but was hard on my health at that time, so I stopped and returned back to a vegetarian diet.
Nevertheless I never had a vitamin/mineral deficiency. I attribute that to my ocasional eating of fish and clams. Still I eat vegan in most days.
I stopped being vegetarian when I moved to Iceland, because it sort of didn´t fit the "natural way" of living there (and also the climate was too cold), so I introduced fish.
The bulk of my diet is oat porridge for breakfast, and vegan mediterranean-style (or Indian cuisine) for lunch and dinner. Perhaps once a week, I cook fish.
I might sometimes eat yogurt and eat twice a week scrambled eggs.
I never use sugar or coffee, alcohol is rare. I seriously dislike fast food and processed food! My body is sensitive.
I have no gluten or milk allergy. Sometimes I do have gas after eating gluten or milk, but I also find things like pasta and milk nutritious for me.

I think my diet is very balanced. And I as buy organic and free range, I think I am also very friendly towards animals and towards the enrivonment.
I do cook with plenty of spices and use a lot of greens, like kale, carrots, salad, sweet potatoes, etc... I always cook with a tiny bit of olive oil

My diet is foremost based eating on instinct, whatever I want.
I am 35 and very healthy.

I am a permaculturist gardening since 10 years, and I practiced always vegan permaculture, sometimes with worms, but that because I never owned land.
Otherwise I would have enjoyed having some chicke, just for eggs, and honeybees.
I love growing a majority of my plant-based diet. I have grown nearly every possible vegetable, and I experiment a lot with lesser known perennial vegetables.
I dont use manure, compost and mulching sheet soil building, are my key methods.

This is my story! Merry Christmas!

I had success.

The trick is to grow chufas indoors in a tray container, filled with fine potting soil.

Why? First chufas prefer a long growing season, with warmth, so it might be difficult to get such outdoors, but indoors they grow perfectly fine and very easy! Really they require low care.
Second, they need well draining sandy fine soil, which is unlikely outdoors with loam soils.
Third, chufas look like grass, so any competition by grass or other weeds will seriously reduce their yield. Growing in a container indoors makes weeding much easier.
Fourth: sprouting tiger nuts required warmth (which you wouldn´t get outdoors until early summer), otherwise they sprout only very late in year. Indoors you have that warmrth all the time, so the growing season is prolonged.
Yields are far superior indoors (or for that matter, in a greenhouse perhaps).

I tried both chufas indoors in a container, and outdoors over 2m2.
Indoors was a success, outdoors was a poor harvest.

Hello,

From our grain experiments, so far I´ve only eaten the corn (roasted and it is delicious) and amaranth (tried it simply cooked and also roasted).
Popping did not work, neither for amaranth of the popcorn variety we grew. But all varieties of corn seem perfectly edible when roasted.
We also tried amaranth chips, tasted good.
Amaranth was easy to remove the chaff, simply by use of a hair dryer or in windy weather.
The IMPORTANT thing with both corn but especially with amaranth is that they need to dry very well before storage. Otherwise they mold easily.
My trick was to immediately roast the amaranth seeds after processing them.
So with amaranth and corn, I end up finding the process easy and delicious to eat.

The millets have hard shells. Except the proso millet which seems larger sized grain and ready to eat. I will try the blender trick (on the japanese and foxtail varieties).
The good thing about the millets is that they grow fast, easy and in poor conditions. Chicken love it.

Rice. I tried 3 varieties and they were all slow, despite our warm moist summer. I end up bringing the rice growing in waterlogged containers indoors and only now are finally flowering. Really easy to grow it indoors.
I reckon I will harvest the seed heads by December.
So this was just fun as rice seems to require a painful long growing season. I will dehull it by trying a blender.

Sunflower. I harvested seed but have no time to process it yet. I will try boiling the seed, then cracking the hull, separate it with water, and then bake-dry it to roast it.

Barley I grew a hulless variety it seems. It was straighforward to process. Next step is to finally cook it and give it a try to see how it tastes.

Quinoa. Sadly the seed heads were half germinating when harvested (summer is rainy here). And after rubbing, seeds are coated in a dark smudge, which comes out if I rub it vigorously in water but it seems like big work. I wonder if this is the saponin or it is some (potencially dangerous) fungi coating. By the look it doesn´t seem inviting to it, and neither did the chicken eat it.

Also difficult to process were our tiger nuts/ chufas, but I managed to be successful. They are an excellent perennial and easy to grow starch crop. Especially easy to grow indoors in a container.
I have to rub them vigorously to remove the soil from these rugged tubers. This may explain their high cost.

Another crop which I had great yields were sweet potatoes.
These need to be cured. I placed the harvested tubers on top of a seed germinator (30°C) inside a plastic bag, to give them heat and moisture.
Tubers stored well after a week in these curing conditions, otherwise they shrivel. The taste was great!


Any thoughts on the quinoa experiment?
Anyone tried eating the japanese or foxtail millet?

Paul, Fred, Maurice,

Where could I get hold of the Multicaule Perennial Rye?

I actually live in Austria but I couldn´t get hold of it, when I visited Sepp Hozler farm.
But as I live in this region, perhaps its easier.

Or do you know any website that sells it?

Once I got Tim Peters rye but then use most seeds and plants died after winter, and my remaining seeds got non-viable.

Anyone has both Tim Peters and Multicaule Rye on offer?

Hello Steve,

I ordered the 6W grow lamp LEDS, as they were very cheap.

However each individual of the 3 LEDs is just 2W. I think it is recommended that each led is at at least 3W.
Nevertheless as it is very cheap, I tried it.

What have you grown so far with them?

Could you kindly post some ebay links to the 12 LEDs, 5$ cigar lighter inverter and solar panel. As I am a beginner on these things so I am trying to understand what to buy and not make mistakes.
I was really interested in buying a solar lamp for the plants too, as I have a white light solar table lamp and this works fine for some plants, though light is weak (its only 0.5 Watt)
Would you recommend any of the 3W camping solar lamps I posted before?

Many thanks!!!

I added a new option.
I read that leds should be 3 watts each, to provide the right amount of lumens per led.
Option #7 could be above 500 lumens.

Perhaps I will buy one of these to try, but I find it handy to also have a solar charged led growing lamp.

Hello,

I am growing some seedlings of trees indoors, and I want to keep them in good health during winter.
I have a south oriented window, but still I want a good light on the seedlings.
I used before compact fluorescent lamps to grow indoors; but now I want to experiment with LEDs.

I dont need much power. Currently I have a solar table lamp, with 4 leds, total 0.4 watt.
But I think I can buy much more light lumens, for a very cheap price off ebay.

I think a LED lamp between 2 watt to 10 watt is enough.
Ideally solar charged or USB charged.
There are many cheap deals in eBay, around 10 USD. That´s the price I look for.
And the strongest light intensity I can get. Around 300 lumens or more.

- I look at these ebay options:

1) Solar lamp for camping 4w 300lm http://www.ebay.com/itm/4W-LED-Solar-Powered-Light-Bulb-for-Camping-SUS-/291930949731?hash=item43f870c863:g:~yIAAOSwx2dYGyxl

2) Solar lamp for camping 2w 130lm http://www.ebay.com/itm/2W-130LM-Portable-Bulb-Rechargeable-Light-Solar-Energy-Lamp-15w-Equivalent-LED-/322281155329?hash=item4b09742b01:g:DFAAAOSwq5pXQMc0

3) Flashlamp  3w 180lm (300 meter range) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Powered-3W-LED-USB-Rechargeable-Flashlight-Torch-3-mode-Camping-Light-Lamp-/142040762495?var=&hash=item21124a087f:m:mnF7mwUJMLxD8_DCkeHa9yA

4) Camping lantern solar 3w 300lm (20 meter range) http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-LEDs-3W-300LM-Solar-Powered-Lantern-for-Outdoor-Camping-/291843253983?hash=item43f336a6df:g:4ikAAOSw0UdXrFeV

5) Typical chinese hydroponic lamp 3w or more http://www.ebay.com/itm/3W-1600W-Full-Spectrum-LED-Grow-Light-Panel-For-Indoor-Garden-veg-Flower-Plants-/112082327924?var=&hash=item1a18a09974:m:m7Fn6ClSx7O7Xv8rmJ04QHA disadvantage, most leds are red, which could create tall thin seedlings, and its not solar charged. Also total of lumens is not specified, which makes me not trust much on these ones, as they seem too cheap. Each led is about 0.2w

6) Also hydroponic lamp, 6w, each led has 2w, so it is a much stronger light, 100lm http://www.ebay.com/itm/6W-10W-LED-Grow-Spot-Light-Bulb-Lamp-E27-GU10-Hydroponics-Plants-Flower-Lighting-/272386440482?var=&hash=item3f6b7f3d22:m:mbOFiNE0cqfanrtxt93d02A

7) An even seemingly better blue/red LED lamp, better because each led is 3w, which is considered the minimum. Total lumens unknown. http://www.ebay.com/itm/15W-21W-27W-36W-45W-54W-LED-Grow-Light-Panel-For-Hydroponic-Veg-Flowering-Lamps-/152109733343?var=&hash=item236a7255df:m:m-DmZQuXllaYnfwz6BpC7PQ

Can someone recommend a good one? Which light seems to be the best and the strongest, from the selection above?

- One trick is to sow a SUCCESSION of salads across the year instead of just one sowing in spring. This way, one can extent a salad supply until late autumn (for instance with frost-resistant chicory and mache/valerian salad)

- One of my green staples is both swiss chard, mustard greens and kales, which I let self-sown. Then, a continuity of greens to stir-fry between April and November.  I like miner lettuce but it dies easily. In summer amaranth also provides greens, grain and biomass, a very useful plant.

- KALE is important, as it actually remains through the winter. Even if your climate is quite cold. Try for example siberian or red russian varieties. They are awesome. However they are not perennial but self-sowing.

- I am trying perennial kales and collards but they are not so cold hardy as the conventional kales.

- GOOD KING HENRY provides a perennial source of cooking greens throughout the year, including very early in spring. It is very cold-hardy. I look into other perennials like turkish rocket but I was not convinced.
- Better even are weeds like nettles and DANDELIONS provide cooking greens even during winter and also very cold-hardy.

- I am trying to look for a perennial winter-hardy salad, to eat raw. But I haven´t found one yet. Any ideas?

I have been growing a tuber since a few years. I tried it in three different climates. In the subartic in Iceland it overwintered easily (zone 5) but it did not thrive. It needs a nice warm summer, despite being being very cold hardy in winter. Indoors it grows nicely but eventually dies if attacked by spider mites. In Austria, continental climate (zone 7, warm summers) and Portugal (Mediterranean, zone 9) it grows really well and easy, it thrives during the warm summer weather and it produces a nice string of tubers. It climbs and grow strongly (starts late in spring and dies early in autumn), it flowers but mines have not yet set seed.

Has anyone tried to eat them? I might try it now for the first time.

It is more the question on the processing and edibility of the four types of millets and quinoa that I am having a problem with, and seeking for advice.

But many thanks regarding the parched corn and rice.

Hello,

This year I went big on my experimentations with grains and pseudograins, and I need some advice

- Foxtail millet: the seeds are bright orange, directly from the seed heads, this orange hull seems to be strongly attached to the seed. How do I remove it?
- Japanese millet: anyone also has experience with this grain? The brown grain seems to also have a hull which is difficult to remove by hand.

- Proso and pearl millet seem much more easy to remove husk. I assume that just by rubbing with the hand, and then it can be used in the kitchen,

Anyone has tried cooking these different types of millets?  I think either proso or pearl, one of them, is the common millet found in organic stores. I waiting to know on their edibility, before cooking these four types of millet.


- Amaranth. Easy to grow and harvest. But I find it harder to store due to its tendency to absorb moisture from the air. Can I roast it and store it that way? Can you eat plenty of roasted amaranth seed? I added small spoons to salads and it tastes great.

- Quinoa. The seed started to sprout in the seed heads, due to constantly rainy weather. So I rush to harvest it, so I end up with a mix of dried powder, darker material, and the seeds. I am not sure whether this is expected. Could it be that the threshed and winnoned seed is full of dark material, which is fungal stuff or rot seed. Should I discard the seed or is it fine for eating? Perhaps I upload a photo to show this. I know that I must soak it several times before cooking.

- Rice. How do I remove the hard hull?

- Corn. Anyone tried to parch/roast corn kernels, and then grind it into a polenta flour? This was my idea... I have paint mountain corn. Parched corn tastes delicious.

Vitamin B12 defficiency occurs in people eating vegan diets after some time, and even vegetarian and conventional diet, if not properly balanced and well-cared for.

I think if you eat clams regularly, like once a week, you will fulffill the vitamin B12 needs. Bur first if you are already experiencing symptons, I would recommend to ask a doctor to prescibe you either vit B12 shots or a high quality vit B12 pills.
And perhaps you were too hard on yourself. Minimalistic diets often result in trouble.

I also grow much of my food, which is mostly vegetarian, but still I eat often eggs, fish, clams, yogurt, butter....
It´s good to grow our own food as fun, not to be too hard on ourselves and cause problems of any sort...

Hello,

I am updating my thoughts on 100% food self-sufficiency, based in my experiments over the past 3 years.

Until 2014 I was in Iceland, then moved to Portugal in 2015, and to Austria in 2016.

First let´s talk about the common annual vegetables.
This year I harvested reasonable amounts of potatoes, sweet potatoes, parsnips, sunchokes, chufas, barley, amaranth, millet, pumpkins and beans.
I harvested reasonable amounts for at least 2 months of food of each crop, in a field of around 30m2

I practiced a biointensive aspect of growing 60% of more of my garden as biomass/compost crops (e.g. grains, broad beans, corn), 30% of calorie-rich crops (like potatoes) and 10% of other/fresh vegetables (like salads, broccoli, squash, tomatoes or carrots).

* I concluded that the biomass crops are easy to grow and to store long-term, but their harvest is labour-intensive. Threshing grains is hardcore stuff. Best to stick to hulless varieties. Amaranth is relatively easy to harvest. Quinoa was highly productive but unfortanely the grain started sprouting in heavy rainfall in September. Millets (foxtail and japanese) were the easiest to grow but very difficult to thresh (but chicken love it). Corn is easy to harvest and highly productive, and I think about using it as polenta flour, as my staple. Beans are very productive in a short space and can be easily stored.

* Calorie-rich crops are the easiest to harvest and also to store. Potatoes and onions for example. I was surprised as how hich yielding sweet potatoes can also be, as well as giant atlantic pumpkins (one large pumpkin was enough to provide us with 100 meals, its disadvantage being that once the pumpkin is open, it has be used or frozen). As we had 8 large pumpkins, we have too much of it actually. Then I am experimenting with some perennial root crops, like mashua, oca, chufas, skirret, scorzonera, groundnuts and sunchokes. I expect surprises. Chufas for instance are quite productive in containers.

* Finally, with the last category of other vegetables, the problem is that they are only available at a limited period of the year. I guess the key here, besides inventing ways of storage and preservation, is to include perennial vegetables to have alternatives at other times of the year, like winter and spring. Some possibilities include asparagus, good king henry, indoors rocoto peppers, nettles and minutina, miner lettuce, perennial rocket, perennial kales, cucamelons or indoors malabar spinach. Anyone has other suggestions?



Based on the past 3 years, I estimate how much would I need for one year of food.

My plans have concluded in the following:
- 120m2 of grains and pulses
- 60m2 of calorie-rich crops
- 20m2 of other vegetables
Total area 200m2

In detail it´s this:
- beans and peas 30m2, corn (for flour or popcorn) 15m2, amaranth or quinoa and millets 15m2, hulless barley 10m2, hulless oats 15m2, wheat 30m2, sunchokes and sunflowers 5m2
- potatoes 13m2, sweet potatoes 10m2, parsnips 2m2, onions and leeks 10m2, pumpkins (including giant varieties) 20m2, chufas and other root crops 5m2
- salads and radishes 1m2, kale and chard 1m2, carrots 1m2, celery 1m2, parsley and beets 1m2, squash 4m2, tomatoes and peppers 3m2, cucumbers 2m2, broccoli 2m2, cabbage and other brassicas 3m2, turnips or swedes 1m2

Of course, I also enjoy having eggs from chicken, some beds with raspberries/strawberries, and if I would have a more permanent piece of land, I would have experimented also with tilapia fish ponds.

Concerning trees I haven´t experimented much, due to not having a permanent property. My favourite ones are figs, chestnuts, walnuts, pomegranates; in subtropical locations, avocados, olives, bananas, oranges; and in tropical locations, coconuts, dates, jackfruits and mangos. I am discovering paulownias as an amazing source of biomass. I have grown passionfruits in containers indoors, and experimented with goji berries and sea buckthorn. Currently I look for fruit possibilities that are quick to fruit (within 1-2 years).

The land I have been offered is 13 acre and located in southeast Austria.

Climate is continental (warm moist summers, winters usually mild but ocasionally hard freezes)
Similar to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Alleycropping by Mark Shepard is a good idea.

Does he till? If not, how? Does he uses machinery or land labour?
Does he uses polycultures in between thelines of trees?
Which crops? Corn, potatoes, grain, beans?
How does he harvest those polycultures?

Hello!

I have been offered 5ha of land to grow staple crops.

Since many years I grew small-sized permaculture gardens, with vegetables and perennials, but now facing large-scale areas, how does one practice permaculture?

We don´t want to do animal grazing, and there is already a small orchard/food forest and a small vegetable garden.
We want to use the remaining 5ha for growing staples like corn, potatoes, cereals, beans, amaranth.

How exactly to do this in a way of polycultures?
How to make it in a way that would still be harvestable in a practical manner? By use of machinery or hand labour?
How to improve soíl other than growing before cover crops?
Perhaps a solution could be to uses lines with trees like in agroforestry? Which trees would be best (climate is humid temperate, zone 7)?

I look for people that have already large-sized plots and have been growing staples in a more permaculture way.

How about phosphorus? Do we have a combination of herbs or weeds to provide phosphorus, like comfrey for potassium?

How about phosphorus?

Any ideas of what biodynamic accumulators have it?

Paleo is mostly a fad, but then people are of course free to pursuit whatever they wish. Actually a paleo diet is very specific to the place in the world that we talk about. One thing is being a paleo in Europe or Canada, another is being paleo in the Amazon jungle or the deserts of Africa.

I wonder how many of you have been visiting tribal people, that live in barely uncontacted spots like the middle of the Amazon?

I was lucky enough to have visited one of those tribes and I can tell you how they lived and what they ate (I say lucky because they are hidden and they do not allow visitors, somehow they liked me and invited me to visit them).

The Amazon tribe I visited were/are mostly foragers, they go into the jungle and eat a variety of plants (berries, nuts, fruits, bark and yes, starchy tubers).
They also go and hunt insects and fish but less frequently than the plants. They also hunt for meat but rarely because it is more work and the jungle is already full of readily available food.

They also make preparations and mixes with plant food, and stored food like fruits and insects (before I thought "primitive" people did not store food).
They used fire (they offered my roasted ants, just ants, spiced with some peppery hot spice), a proof of their cooking and they took me to the jungle where I tried a fantastic number of plants (including weird sweet tasting latex drinks from trees). They offered me a cure for malaria, to carry with me in my trip, but said this was a secret to be kept away from westerners (due to their fear of exploration). As a biologist I was absolutely amazed with their plant knowledge and usage. The Amazon is indeed a forest garden.

In the middle of their settlement, a clearance in the forest, there were houses made of branches (yes, forget the idea of nomadic hunter-gatherers not having a home, apparently nomadic tribes still have homes)
I never saw any signs of planted crops (so no farming fpor this tribe, whilst the other native less-tribal people living in the promixity of this hidden tribe used agriculture (the stuff like jackfruit, manhioc, palms, etc), and had more developed houses, clothes, etc)

More surprising was their "pharmacy" (yes they had one). They had a natural pharmacy, with not only thousands of herb preparations but parts of animals there too! It looked very exotic. Finally (offtopic), I was also interested and asked them other questions. Here were some of my findings: they have no concept of spirituality or religion at all, not even shamanic practices (but they took ocasionally psychedelic plants); they practiced killing of new borns with defects (to my astonished look), they were somewhat skinny people but incredibly strong (I saw one of them jumping straight into a muddy river full of dead trunks of trees and catching an adult crocodile with his bare hands!). Absolutely unbelievable.

Besides this experience, I visited in India other semi-tribal people, but these already with some civilization contact (way less primitive than the ones I found in Brazil), they were omnivores (but mostly plant/fruit/nut foragers, with ocasional animal hunting (not anything you know, but rather jungle animals / fish was rarer because this was a inland spot, solely from rivers), again skinny and very strong people. In the region (which was Kerala in India), I also visit the non-tribal native people that grow their "forest gardens" with really high number of species (urely doesn't look like agriculture but instead the wild forest garden we all dream of). They were mostly vegetarian. Never saw any raised animal, instead just ate plenty fruits, starches and fats from coconut and other palms, nuts, and they also foraged fish.

Finally I lived in Iceland, a country where farmers were nearly 100% meat/fish eaters (a mix of sheep farming and fishermen), with their origins in the vikings. Barely cultivating plants, but as vikings were farmers, they cultivated barley ocasionally (and also ate a perennial grain that grows along the Icelandic shores). As a permies, I was a crazy one trying to grow plants just at the edge of a difficult to impossible climate. But nowadays agriculture is in great expansion there now. The inuit in Greenland however had a different diet; they weren't farmers, so barely no meat, except ocasional seal, and plenty fish (even less plant food than the Icelanders). Also sea birds and their eggs. And seaweed and some shore plants. Although nomadic hunting for people, they also had "homes", otherwise they would die with the cold.

My point is: climate matters. Paleo can be very different, region to region.
Second point is: much of the romantic paleo image is wrong. For a starter, paleos always have a home. They roam around hunting for plants, fish and other animals. Depends in the climate.
Difference is, they don't practice agriculture or animal farming. They just use/eat whatever is around.

So far, from the experienced in the Arctic, India and Amazon, I haven't met tribal people foraging or cows or sheep or eating beef (sorry paleos). Just fish+seals+birds+seaweed, plants+ocasional animals, or plants+fish+insects, ways I never see in the western world nor in so-called paleo diets.

I have grown perennial rye, in Iceland, and had similar experience to Bunkie.

First year, 2013, the grain planted in spring produced seed heads but no seed. Many plants did not overwinter though. The winters in Iceland are harsh, and severe freezes occur often without snow cover. A couple of plants survived, but since they did not had other perennial rye plants nearby, they failed to produce seed. One produced seed, but very little, because of a nearby perennial rye new plant. (tip, rye and perennial rye is not self-fertile, so make a field with at least several plants and not just a few of them! So Bunkie and Victor, its true, rye absolutely needs cross-pollination, by wind, otherwise seedheads will be empty - they also will, if growing season is too short)

Overall, I found out that perennial rye is less winter hardy than conventional rye, and that not worth for Iceland.

Other than that, I noticed that of the several plants of perennial rye I start, only about half become perennial towards the second year of growth, and the other half behaves as annual. One plant was going now into the third year and I gave it to a local friend, because I am moving out of Iceland this winter. So the perennial rye behavior is not that stable yet, it seems, depending both in the climate and also on the intrinsic genetics of each seed, which gives wide variability and instability of the perennial trait.

Now I am moving back to Portugal, my home country, where climate is way different, more akin to California. There a friend of mine, has some of the perennial grain I gave him, to produce seed, but apparently did not became a perennial too. So I hope to continue my perennial rye trials there.

By the way, I also tried perennial rye and perennial wheat, seed bought from a small Irish seed company called Brown Envelope seeds. Apparently they were sourced from Tims also. The grain seemed also promising in their perennial behavior, but I will have to check that in the next year. (On this note, I also have been on Martin´s Crowford garden, in UK, where he has been growing perennial rye since a few several years and apparently having good results. Two years ago, I also visited Sepp Holzer but only his children were there and they were not able to give me his perennial grain seeds, apparently they did not know it). Never got hold of Sepp´s seed, which I think is a type of rye different from the one of Tim Peters.

Trouble is, I still have little seed of Tims perennial rye, so I still need a couple of years to end up with some conclusive results.
Perhaps we can pool our experiments together this year, and exchange some seed with other, in hopes of getting perennial strains adapted to different climates, cold, arid, hot, etc..

Hey Jake,

Great examples that Dave gave you!

I would add also Sepp Hozler farm in Austria, well he is a famous ambitious permaculture person, with some genious and crazy ideas. I visited his place and I really find it amazing (no overstatement!).

I also visited and enjoyed the highly biodiversity spots of Martin crowford forest garden in Devon, UK, and Plants for a Future project in Cornwall, UK.

Then, I also like the small urban gardens of Path to the Freedom, even though they are labelled as "permaculture", and the one from Eric Toensmeier, which is a leading expert in perennial vegetables, so he created with a friend a fantastic small urban permaculture house garden.

Hello,

It has been a long time since last replies in this topic.

First let me tell that I do not have that much experience with this climate. I am just a curious like some of us here in Iceland are, to see what can and what cannot be grown.
I have been here for 4 years. Conditions are different than Scandinavia or even parts of Alaska, because our summers are colder, and very strong winds in winter and spring can damage plants where they normally wouldn't.

In terms of trees, birch and willows are native, but many people also grow poplar, spruce, some pine species, and rowan.
Nearly everyone agrees that providing shelter with these trees is the key to begin experimenting with other, more sensitive, trees.

Second, it takes a long time to establish these trees, so if someone in Iceland (or similar arctic climate) wants to see a forest garden, he or she needs to find a property with those trees already on site, or wait until the next generation. And these pioneering trees do much better if grown together as a clump, rather than isolated or as a single windbreak.

Fruit trees are challenging, and were thought to be impossible until 20 years ago (when Icelandic climate became warmer).
People have grown apple and cherry trees, across Iceland, and even pears and plums, but mostly against a house wall, espalier, and by the coast.

If you are inland, conditions are more severe, but some of us have began experiments, and so far the trees have not cropped yet, but will probably do it, in a few years. Obviously we are talking about very sheltered environments, but not against a wall or espalier. We are talking about more natural growing conditions, where a fruit trees grows sheltered by other pioneer trees (like the ones described above). This goes for apples and cherries. Plums might be possible but we don't know yet. Maybe even hazels.

Some trees do not grow well, I am thinking of oaks, because the summer is too cool and short, to create woody stems to survive the winter, so these trees often experience setbacks in the freezing winds. Alnus is a nitrogen fixing species that does well, if quite sheltered.

Berries are easy: raspberries, blackberries, currants, strawberries, etc.
And other perennials, for example rhubarb, good king henry, chives.

Many herbs are also possible. Mint for example, and things like sage, if very sheltered. Angelica is a native plant.

Possibly sea buckthorn, elaegnus, etc, there are many unexplored possibilities. But it takes much time to grow these plants to adult size.

Other than this, I say a warm hello to Finland and Lapland Clovis guilloton: I like your suggestion of lasagna bed to grow vegetables. We can grow most root and leaf vegetables, grain is possible but dependant on a good summer, broad beans and peas are easy, i have tried buckwheat and amaranth and haven't worked, but quinoa grows well, especially if in a raised bed. Also squash and siberian tomatoes, if given optimal conditions.

Hello,


I have a big problem with spider mites indoors.

I grow many plants indoors in a conservatory - not only vegetables for food like tomatoes, but also many perennials, tree seedlings, collection of cactus, etc. I live in an arctic climate, only 3 months frost-free, so growing indoors is essential.

The mites seem to be killing always the same prone species (like moringa, beans, seedlings of honey locust, amaranth, etc) It's not a problem for many plants, it's a manageable problem for many species (like many tree seedlings, corn or tomatoes), but it is a deadly risk for some species like those. I keep overwintering some perennials indoors, and since the conservatory with artificial lights and pots is an artificial environment, some pests get out of control.

I tried everything against spider mites, but nothing works. Predator mites definitively do not work. Cleaning everything definitively does not work. Introducing pest repelling plants like catnip, does not deter the mites too. Tried neem, essential oils, and did not work. I am tired of reading articles on spider mites and solutions that do not work.

So, I want to know, how can I, from the Permaculture point of view, create a healthy and balanced environment with my indoor plants. I already have a lot of diversity indoors but the mites kill always the same sensitive species, those species always die to mites even if I give them the best of conditions. Plants first became speckled, then leaves dried, and then eventually defoliated plants are so much weak that die.

Any bright ideas?

The sea buckthorn and siberian pea seeds need to be cold stratisfied, submitted to some moist and chilly/freezing weather.

The honey locust germinates only after scarification, for example, a small knife cut on the seed hard coating, to allow water to enter the seed.

I have grown all of the 3 from seed. If you grow them indoors first, be careful that the sea buckthorn (and the honey locust) are sensitive to be killed by spider mites. Also use a sandy soil for these 3 nitrogen fixing plants, to avoid root rot.

Don't forget elaeagnus, another good nitrogen fixing species. Also a lot more for those with less frost: leucanea, carob, casuarina, tagasaste, pigeon pea...

Hey everyone,

I am a soap maker. We run a small organic cosmetic business. Obviously I am very environmental and health minded (or I try as hard as possible).

I don't use deodorant at all (some days I spray myself with water and a mix of essential oils). A mix like lemon, bergamot, cedarwood, patchouli, etc, is rather pleasant.
I take a shower using my self-made soaps, which are very nice for the skin, no drying at all (they are made of coconut and olive oil). A properly well made soap should not leave the skin dry or irritated, many soap makers add colorings and fragrances and err in the percentage of oils. I found out that if you bath yourself with water in nature, frequently every day, then you might not need a soap most times. Those experiences I had were with swimming in the ocean and bathing in natural lakes.

You can also buy liquid castille soap and add a couple % of olive oil and it will feel much less drying on the skin.

I tried for a month or two not to use shampoo. It went well. The hair gets used after 3 weeks (my hair is rather oily). Its not the end of the world Apple cider vinegar is quite good for the hair. Corn starch is also nice and soaks extra fat. I wash my hair with herbs like soapwort, also with my own made shampoo made with decyl glucoside, which is the mildest surfactant there is (and no preservatives or any other chemical - i use a small percentage of alcohol to preserve it). Weleda has a rather synthetic-chemical free shampoo. But many other claimed "organic" brands actually have a lot of synthetics to them. Read labels carefully. I dont use a conventional shampoo for such a loooong time. I love the effect nettles and calendula have in my hair. Really cool.

Toothpaste: the simplest and the most natural the better. But I found baking soda and most clays to be rather agressive for tooth. A gum/gel toothpaste without synthetic chemicals is what I use. Many essential oils are perfect for mouth, clove oil (very diluted) is excellent one: perfect for tooth and gum problems.

Cosmetics is often an area where most environment-minded people forget about. And one thing in life where chemicals are most ubiquotous. So it is rather important to take care of that.
Hope I was useful in sharing my own experiences.

Hey, this is a great great great podcast Paul.

I was very amused to hear this while I took my Saturday morning coffee.
I agree that this hate speech / hostility in Permaculture in undesirable. Better to be objective, like Geoff says.

We all have our weird personalities, interests, opinions, egos. But we go beyond those, and have fun. Befriend with each other. Of course, there are opposite views in things, its part of life. But one should more or less be fine with those opposing views, especially when they are tiny details like rocket stoves, digging or no digging, etc. Diversity is part of richness, as in species as in opinions and techniques.

I also liked the "women in Permaculture" discussion. Actually I don't know the women that were described in the podcast. Can someone post their names, I couldn't get it as I am not a native English speaker.

I like the question: "who is on charge of Permaculture" and even more the answer "no one! Permaculture is just like a weed, keeps growing and growing and spreading"

On the cards, I just realized now that they exist (sorry Paul I am quite absent minded at times!); I will definitively order them, it is such a great idea, Paul. Can't wait to take them to my friends and play cards with them and see everyone amused with the drawings on the cards. Very organic indeed.

I am looking forward for part II of this podcast!

Beautiful!!!

And so great example. This together with the Jordan's Lawton project, are two great examples of Permaculture in the desert.
Its the way to go after.

I want to ask a question, perhaps someone knows how to answer:

How large does a desert area need to be cover with forest, in order to promote local thunderstorm production?
I am very curious to know how many ha or square km/miles it needs.

Victor Johanson wrote:Interesting. Hulless einkorn is almost unheard of. I obtained some Sepp's seed myself and grew it here in Fairbanks last season. A few plants were just starting to send up stalks when the frost came. We'll see if it survived the winter. The conventional wisdom is that winter grains aren't feasible in interior Alaska--historically, the plants are mostly killed by snow mold. I hope this germplasm proves an exception to that.

Here in Iceland I haven't been able to grow winter wheat, it generally dies. But rye can overwinter. But this autumn I have sown different kinds of wheat, rye, oats, triticale and barley, and I am curious to see what survives the winter, which has varied between a meter thick snowcover in November and a snowless January. I am curious to know about your experiences with grains, here it is quite hard even to grow spring grains. Soil is frozen for 9months, early September to late May, with frost extending even more beyond that; winter can have -20ºC without a snowcover, summer is chilly, with temperatures around 13ºC, and not much more than that. Sometimes we have a dry, mild but sunny summer, sometimes very rainy and cold. Usually always windy.

Do you still have spare grain from Seff's?

I had perennial rye from Tim Peters growing in both Iceland and Portugal since spring of 2013.
So far both seem to be facing problems in getting into their second year of growth.

In Portugal, the rye seemed to first have suffered the draught in summertime, and then rotten in the extremely wet winter of this year. But some plants are still alive and going into their second year.
In Iceland, the plants are all under the ice and snow, they seem rather dead, since they have been exposed to an unusual snowless January (soil is frozen and without a snow cover). There is a change that some plants are getting into their second year.

Next spring, I should be able to tell you whether or not plants are flowering into their second season, and whether or not, they have produced grain.

Andy Cook wrote:Isn''t it generally 2-3 years from planting to harvest?

I planted several, around 10 tubers in spring. Ordered them from Oikos Tree Crops.

First several died with freezing in mid spring. Then, only a few sprout. They took a few months to germinate! Many remained dormant.

I had some indoors, some outdoors. The ones indoors died of spider mites (the vine), so I transplanted them outdoors. The ones outdoors never thrived. Probably too chilly summer? (was the coldest summer since the sixties). I have about 5 of the original tubers still, some in containers, and some with some roots but no vines, and haven´t checked for any harvest to not disrupt the roots.

Seems to be a complicate plant to grow. However I saw a happy groundnut plant this summer growing on the UK.

Its easy to grow millet.
Its also one of those things I often buy in health stores and we cook. Its mild flavor and very light to stomach.

Good thing is the crop, is that millets are often adapted to dry and warm climates, with poor soils. Less yielding than corn or wheat, but much less work. Easy harvest too.

This summer I was growing just a sample of pearl, proso, foxtail, japanese and teff millets. Even being in indoors containers, they were easy to grow and harvest. I only harvested for seed-saving purposes, because I started with little amount of seed.

The african finger millet is the only major species I haven't tried. All millet types are totally different species, with notorious differents between the plants, but the seed is similar.
I haven't tried their different flavors yet, and I don't know which type was the store-bought millet.

I have a few seedlings of avocado outdoors now, and with two days of freezing temps (-8ºC low to 0C high), and the avocado plants survived when brought indoors.

They were in sheltered spots near the walls of my house. In an exposed place, they have died, of course.

You could have a tree growing with a cold frame over it, that would be the ONLY way possible (that might work), otherwise it would be not possible.
Or plant it in a large pot and bring it back indoors or preferably to a cool but not freezing shelter, for the winter.

Like I said (and I am Portuguese) you must either do the cob house without anyone noticing, or neighbors must remain quiet. If they snitch, then you will have to pay a fine and for the permits. Anyways, paying for the permits, which can be strict, implies money, which can be up to a 5k, because it requires an architect plan plus other expenses and taxes. And being a natural construction something that raises odd looks, I wouldn't go down that road. You need to access how much remote your place is.

Or you can speak to someone that knows the local council and establish a good relationship with them, and convince them of what you are doing, but that can be difficult and it would be nearly impossible if you are a foreigner. Anyways Portuguese are not as strict as rules, but everyone and the gov is in dire need for money, so they will use any opportunity to fine or make you pay something. And like I said, it depends a lot on the region and town hall.

You need to be realistic and know of these challenges and also the way how Portuguese people work. Selling mushrooms to restaurants... Hmm, I doubt it. You can try to sell them to organic shops, in large cities. But do not expect countryside folks to buy them. Guarda is quite a conservative place, people are very friendly, hospitable, giving and nice, but will give a odd look if you try to sell them a weird crop, unheard of (for them). Speak to them of permaculture and they will answer come and try my own wine or cheese

Cash crops: melons yes (they are a traditional crop), herbs (to organic shops or young city people, otherwise not so much), chestnuts (definitively but you need to do some street selling, it works best for chestnuts in autumn), wine and liquors (big yes!), olives are also traditional crop, beans not so much (but sold as bulk, can be, more countryside), cheese can be a good bet, tomatoes, peppers, garlic, turnips tops... Talk to your grandfather, he can probably come with good ideas. But as I said, difficult to make enough livable income, as you will compete with a lot, and cheap supermarkets.

Great that you have already irrigation, that's a big plus.

Guarda has also slighty colder winters than most Portugal. Snow can occur ocasionally and frosts can be down to zone 8. You can't, for example, grow bananas there, but still a lot of subtropical crops. Summers will still be nice and hot. Not so much problem with forest fires there as elsewhere.

On building the cob house, if you can have a large property, try to build the house in a remote place, and keep it low profile. If there is a ruin there, then it helps a bit. Laws can be flexible and bent but can also be a headache, just be aware of that.

Hello, I am Portuguese, lived there until I was 25 years, now I have been living since a few years abroad.
I have grown vegetable gardens when I was there, for a long time, so I am aware of the climate possibilities and restrictions.

Please feel free to ask me, whatever you want, but I have a few points that you should ask yourself about it:

1. I hope you do understand that there is a big economic depression in Portugal. Its similar to Greece. That makes creating and running a business a big challenge! Difficult to compete with creap prices of supermarkets, which makes small business difficult to run. People do not want to buy stuff more expensive than in cheap supermarkets.
2. 5K seems also too little money to develop a land. Many expenses can cost just around that. Solar panels for instance will cost around 10 to 15k. Building permission around and property buying tax together can cost around your 5k.
3- Building natural houses can be a challenge if you want to have your house legal. It might depend very much in how conservative the region is, its laws, and neighbors around. Its possible to do it, without being legal, but then your neighbors must be good ones.
4- Also be aware of drought. Summer in Portugal is hot and dry. Water is a must. Expect to water daily, once or twice, even with mulching. It is doable, but for foreigners the dry climate can at times be a bit unexpected. Also be aware of forest fires, which are a big problem.
5. Acacia is a difficult tree to remove. The soil under a pine forest should be quite poor and acidic, and will need plenty organic matter to start something.

By the way where are your property located in Portugal?

I myself think of returning to Portugal one day, but I am aware that running a business there, can be quite a challenge.

I tested some of these plants last winter and spring:

- Chilean mesquite. Seems it could overwinter if seedlings are big enough and woody. But it seems to dislike the cold weather. Officially it is hardy to zone 8, but i could stand more I think.
- Honey locust. A 1 year tree overwinter outdoors without problem, but growth is poor in summertime. Seems to be cold hardy enough for zone 6 and even colder regions. But likes warm weather when it is growing.
- Crambe. Seems quite cold hardy. So far survived -8ºC without problem, but with mulch. I will see how it does with its first winter.
- Asparagus. Last winter, I fail to overwinter a 1 year seedling. I am trying again with much more mulch.
- Sea buckthorn / Seaberry. It is very cold hardy. Stands much colder than zone 6.
- Ginger (the common supermarket ginger). It survived outdoors -8ºC and freezing of the soil (even without mulch), when top part was already dead. Parts of the root suffered but other parts remain alive. This seems to show ginger is hardy at least to zone 8 and possibly zone 7 with protection.
- Curcuma / Turmeric. Same as above.
- Bamboo, Phyllostachys edulis. Seems cold hardy but a small seedling died through last winter. Cold hardiness depends on its size, and could go to zone 6 but not much more I guess.
- Good King Henry. Seems quite cold hardy. It will overwinter its first winter. So far seems to stand zone 8 freezing without many problems, but top part dies. Probably mulching helps.
- Amelanchier canadensis. Survived our zone 6 winter without protection. A small 10cm seedling. No problem. Should be cold hardy in much colder regions.

And I have tested a few more perennials...

- Pigeon peas. They took a minor brief frost, -2ºC, in a sheltered spot, and suffering just a bit. Colder than that and they readily die. So, they are cold hardy to zone 10, and in the limits of possibly zone 9, with protection, but it might depend on how long the chilly weather remains.
- Goji berry. Seems to stand zone 7 freezing when the plant is dormant.
- Moringa. Same as pigeon pea, but I have tested for colder than -2ºC. Because it is a more woody plant it could survive slightly colder frosts.
- Groundnut, apios americana. Survives zone 7 freezing, but colder than that can damage the tubers and make them die, if there is no mulching. I will see how they survive their first winter fully outdoors. The foliage is just like a bean, it will not stand even chilly weather, above zero.
- Tiger nuts: below zero makes foliage die, but tubers survive when freezing is not hard. I have a plant outdoors and I will check if its tubers have survived the current zone 8 freezing weather.
- Oca: foliage readily dies with frosts colder than -2ºC. And if this happens before tuber formation, then your plant will just disappear into nothing. But foliage stands well frosts just around -1ºC.
- Avocado. A few of my seedlings have survived outdoors lows around -8ºC and freezing of the soil. I did not expect avocado to be so cold hardy.
- Pomegranates. They have survived even more severe zone7 like freezing, when dormant. A quite hardy tree.

I have one moringa in a container here and it had survived a few summer frosts outdoors, but very minor ones for just a brief period in the dawn. I also have siberian tomatoes, which have survived snowfall and -4ºC frost, but now have died, since frosts are nearly daily and soil is freezing quite often. Hopefully I can make them even more cold hardy a few years down the road. I heard rumours of certain siberian tomatoes able to stand much more severe frosts.

On crambe/ sea kale: I am growing it for the first year. Hopefully it will overwinter!

Hello,

Someone gave me 3 years ago a plant that was thought to be caraway. It was in a small pot.

Well, I am familiar with cumin smell and use on food, but not with caraway. That's the problem. And the problem with this "caraway" plant I have is that since it was given to me 3 years ago, for these 3 years it grew quite tall up to 1m, and produce a lot of strongly aromatic seeds, for the entire 3 years, always sprouting in spring from the same root. While common Caraway is an annual or biannual, my plant behaves as a hardy perennial, so I might have perhaps another species of carum (caraway). Interestingly, Wikipedia says there is a polyploid variety of caraway that is a perennial. And it says there are at least 20 species of carum (species in the same genus as caraway).

It smells what I think it is caraway; a fennel-like strong-anise menthol peppery scent, and rather hot, much different from the sweet aromatic smell of cumin. Seeds are darker, and have pale white ridges in between, just like caraway seeds are supposed to have.

One fact to note is that it grows amazingly well in the cold and short Icelandic summer, and overwinters pretty well, and the foliage is very winter hardy. I wonder if its a subspecies or even a different caraway species that became perennial. Interestingly, Iceland seems to be bountiful with perennials from the apiacea family. We also have wildly growing sweet cicely and scotish lovage. Both are very hardy and very strong aromatic herbs. The smell of the sweet cicely seeds and the seeds of my "caraway" plant, are very similar, both strong anise scent!

I will post tomorrow a photo of the plant and its seeds.

Any idea?

1. What zone number am I considered to be in?
Answered before. You live in a frost free tropical location. Zones are usually mostly used from 1 to 10, to distinguish how frosty each winter is in each zone. You have probably a very good climate for a self-sufficient living.

2. What kind of land is best or better to be chosen? Some examples are sloppy lands, plains, wild forest, orchards, rubber estates, oil palm plantations, with rivers, with ponds, etc. Which would be the priority?
I would assume in your spot, some place. with a fertile soil, probably near a valley, but with a slight slope, so that it does not flood. But being aware of erosion.

3. In order to fully or covering atleast 80% of the food supply for 4 family of six each (24 person in total), how many acres of land do i need? Our diet can be mainly base on veggies, maybe some grains if not consuming too much land, poultry, and some fishes from ponds. We do not plan to have cows or other livestock that requires much space for grazing. I know it varies base on plannings but you guys can give estimation base on an average farmer's (sooner or later we will be one or even better).
In most temperate climates, 1 acre should feed a family, including cereals, corn, pulses, potatoes, roots, and some chicken. In tropical climates, productivity can be even higher, so with 1 acre you should grow even more food, if you do not suffer from droughts. And your climates allows many high productive and valuable perennial sources of food, like pigeon pea, coconuts, bamboos, jackfruit, etc. Just google perennial solutions website by Eric Thoensmeyer.
Chicken only need small portions of land, but you might need to grow some food for them. Other large livestock, as you said, required much more land. So chicken are a good option. Ponds can be done in a relatively small area and have edible fish, though I have little experience with it.

4. If the design is just averagely efficient and not extremely bio-intensive, how many acres can a person handle with 30-40 hours of work a week on it? 2 acre? 2.5 acre? or much more. No idea, but I guess 1 acre should be easily managable, I think with that full work time even 3 acres should be doable. Having tools or even some small machinery can make a difference of course.