The theory behind the log hive is that the bees will do better in a more naturally shaped home.  So the reasoning for  thicker walls is to provide better insulation, and better protection from predators and the elements.  People may go on about additional benefits but for me it comes down to these couple of things.

The downside of log hives are their potential for weight.  Honey, pollen and beeswax are all heavy enough.  Add 3 more inches of hardwood and the hive becomes a pain to move or manipulate. This is the reason why I chose the top bar design for the horizontal hive and a sectional vertical design.  

To harvest the honey from vertical design, one must simply remove the top section, remove all the combs and replace it by putting it in the bottom position, like the Warre method.

The entrances will be one small knot hole in each section of the vertical hive, and one 1/2" x 4" entrance at one end of the horizontal hive.  

Here's my first sketch of the vertical design

Here's my first sketch

Hi Everyone!

I just wanted to pop on here and give a little info on what we will be doing at the Jamboree in the Bee Track.

We will be building a horizontal log hive, that has top bars, so basically a top bar hive that has super thick walls.

We will also build a vertical log hive, but one that is divided into 3 or 4 shorter sections so that it can be easily inspected and manipulated.  We will do either top bars or bamboo skewers for the combs to be drawn from in this hive.

I would like to build a couple of Comfort hives (the modern lay person's Warre hive) and maybe a Langstroth hive as well.  And last but not least we will build at least one swarm trap (not warm trap!) if not more.

If there's any honey in the old hive we will extract it and maybe even process some beeswax.  Throughout the event I will be discussing Treatment Free beekeeping and the ethics of honey bee husbandry.  

Can't wait to see you all there!!

Hi Nancy,

If you are worried about the chemicals, ditch the equipment. Use the equipment if you don't care about the chemicals. Starting fresh is basically the only way to be sure your equipment is free from beekeeper introduced contaminants. Beeswax, and thus combs, are notorious for absorbing chemicals. Do the bees a solid, and get some new boxes and frames. If it smells nasty to you, the bees probably wont like it either. New wax is the most beautiful anyway.

I have seen similar things in commercial beekeeper's yards. Usually it happens on a very strong honey flow, they build comb on the outside underneath the pallet. I agree that it could have been a swarm that didn't make it far from the colony for whatever reason. But I also thought it could be because they were on such a strong honey flow, and because their genetics may come from a commercial beekeeper, they just did this because they needed more room for honey storage and maybe brood production. It would be interesting to know if there was brood in the middle of those outside combs. Since most beekeepers use a mediterranean honey bee, they don't necessarily display the characteristics of a honey bee more adapted to a Michigan environment.

I don't think they necessarily made a bad decision as much as didn't have any options. Swarming isn't a good idea in the fall in northern environments, and usually swarms can get further away than this. I think it may have to do with the fact that the mother colony of this feral hive could have come from a hive who isn't locally adapted.

The beekeeper I learned from who keeps bees in Missoula, MT, winters all of his hives on the ground. The only thing between the hive bottom board (langstroth hives) and the ground was a "pack board" which all of the wintering hives set on, side by side, for winter. They were just long 1x4s that were old and rotting. He made sure that all of the bottom cleats of the hives sat on the wood boards and not directly on the earth. I was thinking about raising my hives off of the ground more, but then another local beekeeper told me that the beekeeper in his area who wintered his hives on the ground, his hives had better survival rates than those who had their hives raised up off the ground. So I started thinking there might be something to it.

We have a very dry climate, even in winter. And if it does snow, the snow sits on top of a tar paper and straw cap that covers the entire "pack" of colonies in the yard. Mice are not really a problem if you upkeep good equipment with small entrances that they cant crawl through. They may chew their way in, but what are you gunna do about a mouse chewing their way into your hive! I guess raise it up off of the ground, they might not get in. But that is only if you use steel posts or something similar that they cant crawl up. And when the snow does get deep, remember mice can get on top of it. We don't have hive beetles, so that isn't a worry. So maybe in certain places with hot dry summers and cold bitter winters, the ground may be the way to go. I'm not sure about this though. Does anyone else have stories about hives doing better on the ground than up in the air a bit? I am curious to know.

Hello Everybody!

Thanks again for posting here!

I will try to answer comments/questions as they came.

Hi Dan! - I am teaching beekeeping, not honey production, although one might assume they are one in the same. When I talk about organic beekeeping, I am referring to management practices. There are all sorts of ways to label this. One might call it biological field management, another might call it organic.

When I talk about traditional, I am talking about beekeeping methods from all around the world since the beginning of beekeeping. This is quite a big subject, but I try to put things in perspective for people, so I use my knowledge to educate people about what people did in the past, and what people are doing now. There are so many ways to describe beekeeping practices, I used these adjectives to separate myself from conventional practices.

Thanks for your positive encouragement and joining in on the conversation!

Hi David! - When we talk about differences in cell size as pertaining to the different sizes of bees, we are only discussing the size of worker brood, because we know that drone/honey storage cells are larger and vary in size. So we don't include the drone/storage cell sizes when comparing "sizing" of the brood nest. I have measured lots of combs, and from doing foundationless, I have learned much about how they build comb and why they size it. Since going down the treatment free road, I found it very important for me to discuss the size of the bees as one possible reason for the maladies we see so much of today. If it works like people claim it does, then there probably is something to it. I have found it hard to deny the logic of small cell beekeeping, and find it very enticing to try. Why wouldn't I? I have tried lots of other stuff that didn't work, so I am not really afraid of trying something new. There is so much evidence pointing to sizing being an important factor in the ecology of honey bees, that I feel it is something everyone should try, and then we can share information and data we have collected from trying it. Of course, not everyone wants to be that kind of beekeeper, and that is totally fine.

Hi Jean-Jacques! - Great points! I labeled the class as such, because of my background in beekeeping. In the beekeeping world, there is not much of a consensus on what these things mean, but it does portray the ideas I am supporting. It is a great course for starting beekeeping, but there are a bunch of courses out there. Some of them even claiming to be treatment free or organic. Which is awesome!

But my class is more for the permaculturalist who wants to be a successful beekeeper and wants to avoid all the bad and mis-information that is out there. Growing up in the industry, I have the special advantage of understand the "why" beekeepers do certain things. Every beekeeper is constantly learning, whether you are 5 years old or 95 years old. Bees and nature will continue to fascinate humans as long as we can co-exist. I suggest strategies and philosophies to help every beekeeper, young and old, to help carry us into the future where we can co-exist in harmony. And lead us away from the direction we seem to be going to as a society.

Hey David!

I loved your videos! Yeah what traditional beekeeping means will vary based on location, and be different for every individual. To me it is about returning to natural practices like only feeding honey and pollen. I'm not into sugar feeding anymore.

As far as small cell goes, it would be nice to have more data available to the public on the comb size of wild hives. And by wild hives I mean feral honey bees that are not from commercial beekeepers swarms.

In the latest study about the arnot forest bees, they say something about the smaller size of the comb, but never mention the small cell beekeepers. If we all were able to locate truly feral honey bees and measure the combs, then we could really get some data to show.

But using domesticated honey bees is not necessarily give you the patterns that nature sets herself. If you think about the large himalayan honey bees that migrate from the mountains to the low lands every year, it makes sense that they are larger. And as most animals get larger the further north or south you get, it makes sense that honey bees would do the same thing. Larger where its colder, smaller where its warmer.

But since humans have been keeping and breeding bees for many thousands of years, using their genetics for scientific studies will only prove how they respond to situations, and might not necessarily correlate to wild hives and how they act in nature.

On another note, I love bee trees! But they seem like a lot of work and I don't like cutting into large trees. I know it may not kill the trees, but I would prefer to let the wild hives use their instincts to find wild cavities! And then trap them out of the trees.

Hey Jeff!

I was thinking about your idea of log hives up in trees on hunter stands, and I have more critiques. First, if you want the bees to survive year after year, you will need large enough colonies to make it through your winters. This would require large log hives, that would end up weighing way more than most humans(400-500lbs) when filled with honey and pollen. And if for some reason one came loose and fell, it could be disastrous. With lightweight hives you wouldn't have good enough insulation from the wind, and they still would be heavy when filled with honey(300-350lbs).

I was thinking about the wind and how people don't usually put hives in windy areas for a good reason. So my platform idea is kinda out because the wind would tear it apart, unless it is constructed really well. If you put it in a shelter belt or a thick stand of large trees, then you probably would be fine. I think most people have found through experience that everyone (the bees and beekeepers) are safer when there isn't a lot of up and down moving of hives or honey. That is a large amount of work and is dangerous.

So maybe the flat roof top, or the top of an earth shelter would be best for your idea. The bees get their vertical and you can safely access them when you need to. I don't know how many bears you have over there in ND, but here you can't leave hives unprotected from bears. They will find them with their excellent noses!

Anyway, food for thought...

Hey Jeff!

I like your writing style and wit. I also have had many of the same ideas. Many of which I have not tried, but have heard of many people around the world doing similar things.

To answer your short list of questions:

1. Honey is generally harvested in the autumn because that is when the honey flow is over and and the honey is ripe enough to take and it won't spoil. Many permaculture beekeepers wait until spring as to leave plenty for the bees in winter, and there being little chance of unripened honey. This saves work by not having to feed back. Most commercial guys want the honey out of the comb before it has a chance to granulate (and thus making it difficult to extract). One can, if knowledgeable enough, harvest many times a year. But the beekeeper must be certain of the ripe condition of the honey.

2. Lots of beekeepers have permanent bee yards (apiaries), and it is a great idea! Putting them up in trees is dangerous for the bees and the beekeeper. Putting them on a flat roof or a platform is a much better idea. Honey is heavy, and with the wind moving the trees, its best if the bees actually live inside the tree like they do in nature. You could put log hives up on a platform or rooftop, and easily accomplish the up in the air idea and be safe and sturdy. The bees would naturally colonize appropriately sized log hives, and once you are set up there you go. Be sure to check with your state whether or not you can have hives that don't have moveable combs. If you can't have log hives, then top bar hives would be a good bet. Lots of people hang top bar hives from trees around the world. My guess is they don't have the climate that north dakota does (wind/cold). You could also build earth shelters(wofatis) and place the hives on the top near the drop off and it may give the bees of the sense of being high up. Other wise I think a shipping container would be best. Bees on top with a wind break, stairs up and down, and you could turn the container into a processing and storing space. All in one unit. Placing individual hives long distances apart doubles or triples the workload because of the start/stop and travel. Thats why people have had apiaries for thousands of years. Way more profitable for the beekeeper. I think you need a bee house on top of a building/earth shelter.

3. Well not trucking bees around is better for the bees and for humans too! The only reason they are trucked around now is because honey is devalued and beekeepers have to send their bees in order to make a living. If the sugar industry hadn't killed the honey industry, the world would be a different place. I don't think beekeepers like shipping their bees, but they also do like money. When California and other states can keep enough pollinators alive that they don't need honey bees for pollination, then we will see and end to this pollination dependancy.

4. First off let me say I admire your enthusiasm and creativity! Your idea for setting up hives for the bees is awesome, and surely you will catch some swarms! You may catch local feral bees, or domestic imported bees from the beekeepers in your area. Keep note of differences between your hives. Since bees fly large distances, they are able to inhabit almost anywhere. There are definitely areas that are better than others for many reasons. You have put so many ideas down that I can't address them all. But you might find answers to many of your questions in my online beekeeping course designed for permaculture beekeepers.

5. If you look at bee keeping around the world, there are many hive designs ranging from living trees that have cavities created by humans slowly over the years, to people making top bar hives out of plastic barrels, to beautiful and elaborate bee houses, the variations are endless. Because north dakota is so cold and windy, I would suggest looking into bee houses. They provide protection in the winter and shade in the summer. I've got tons of ideas for you!

6. Dee Lusby always recounts how she kept bees up on the high line in Montana in langstroth deeps. But she says the key is having large colonies with lots of honey stores for insulation to get them through the winter. So yeah lots of people do it. I am in Missoula, MT which isn't like north dakota but still can be cold. I can only agree with Dee Lusby from what experience I have seen, large hives with lots of honey stores make it through the winter. Small ones freeze, light ones starve. The combination of the two is a death warrant. Pretty simple really.

I hope this gets you going and thinking more about what to do!

Marty - Awesome videos! This is exactly what I want to do! But I am scared of getting caught!!!

Howdy Everyone and thank you all to contributing to this discussion!

I hope someone here eventually bites their lip and takes the class! It seems really cheap to me compared to other stuff I've seen. So I am going to respond to comments in the order that they were given.

First off - Thank You Chris! You are awesome!

Tel - the traditional I am referring to is what I feel beekeeping was before the modern conventional/chemical beekeeping that we see everywhere in the industrialized agriculture world.

Burra - I chose the words organic, natural, and traditional to describe my class on purpose. This is because all other classes that I was seeing were very conventional. I also discuss in detail Warre and Top Bar hive optionals and there respective management styles and techniques. Since moveable comb hives have been around for thousands of years, and the langstroth has been around for 160 years, I don't consider it very modern. Its just the standard hive style for the industrial world for good reason.

Michael - Yes the slope is a little greater than I like, but when being a beekeeper in Montana, you find ways to work with it. Obviously the more level the better, but I don't mind a slight slope down hill to aid the shedding of moisture. And I agree it is best to start with good genetics, but I teach in my class how you can get the genetics you want without paying top dollar for them.

Tel - I assume the "it" you are referring to is the langstroth style hive? Im not sure how this doesn't fit into organic beekeeping. I know you don't like handling comb, but I don't see the hive style as contrary to organic management, but rather a preference of the beekeeper.

And I am so glad I found the small cell community, they are wonderful people and are truly committed to cleaning up beekeeping. Dee is great and I can't wait to meet her. I am also glad I found the permaculture community, and I see a lot of overlap between the two. And Paul's video on CCD convinced me to look into cell size more, and Jacqueline Freeman led me to Dee Lusby's email group which I have been a diligent reader of for the past two years.

From what I understand, Dee Lusby worked with the military and the government back in the day studying honeybees and taking samples from all over the world. From this worldly perspective, see was able to figure out how to beat all the problems we were seeing with honeybees by regressing her bees down to an appropriate size for her location. And since then many others are trying it too. I guess I am one of them, and while I am experimenting with small cell, I encourage others to as well. I am currently doing both large cell treatment-free and small cell treatment-free. And from my experience I don't currently recommend anyone use large cell bees unless you want high losses or want to treat. I'm not saying that is how it is, but that is my recommendation. I want to teach people how to keep bees successfully without chemicals, and this is the approach I am using.

Sam - Thank You!

David - In the U.S. and the industrialized society that blindly follows it, we are currently using a one-size-fits-all approach. The small cell is more accurately called natural cell size, and has a much wider range of sizing based on location. The sizing ranges from below 4.5mm to above 5.2, or over .7mm. In conventional beekeeping, it only ranges from 5.2-5.5 mm, or .3 mm. I would think that small cell theory is thusly much more open-minded and more in tune with nature's patterns. The small cell foundation (4.9mm) is just a tool to get your bees down to an appropriate size where they can take care of themselves. Once you have these hardy little bees, then you can do foundation less. But if you think they will regress on there own before a disease takes them out, then you are in the same mind state I was in 2013. I will tell you from my experience that it didn't happen for me. Varroa took them out before they even thought of regressing.

Ken - There can't be any harm in trying right? Well when I asked my dad about it (a conventional beekeeper) he said "I don't want small bees, they won't make as much honey!" And this is the same wisdom that began upsizing 150 years ago, and the same mentality in agriculture that bigger is better. But permaculturalists know that older varieties of whatever and usually much hardier and productive, not to mention more nutritions.

I don't like plastic in the hive either, but I will use small cell plastic frames to help me regress bees so I can carry on my personal experiments until I have lots of small cell bees, then I can feed in 4.9 wax foundation or do foundation less and get rid of the plastic. But basically plastic is not natural for honey bees and they don't like it, but many beekeepers do for obvious reasons.

Tel - If you go to bee source and check out Dee Lusby's work, she lists many references to support her claims.

I encourage people to make up their own minds, and not to just believe me.

The foundation is only based on what the bee keeper wants.

Carol - I am not sure what I said that you are referring to, but for lots of people, it is about honey. But for some people it is more about having bees and getting pollination. I think what I may have been referring to is that the income from many commercial beekeepers is coming more from pollination than from honey. And that is solely because of our terrible mono crop situation.

Tel - I encourage you to read more about the community of organic beekeepers. I am a permaculture beekeeper that is very excited to see so many people trying to learn how to keep bees without any treatments, artificial feeds, and in alignment with nature. That is what I am trying to share with people with my online course.

My thanks go out to Paul Wheaton for getting me to do more research, and Jacqueline Freeman for compelling me to be more open-minded to other ways of thinking about honey bees.

Evan, I think your little yellow flower is a yellow bell, not a glacier lily.

Thekla,

I can only tell you what I have learned from being a commercial beekeeper in Western Montana. The standards may differ between region and beekeeper. When we place 24-28 colonies on a landowner's property, that landowner receives 30 pounds of honey each year, regardless of the honey crop. Now depending on the year, the 30 pounds of honey would be a different percentage of the total crop. On a good year here, lets say that the beekeeper gets 100 lbs of honey per hive. In a yard of 24 hives, that would be 2400 lbs of honey. 30 divided by 2400 is 1.25%, not a very high percentage. ON a bad year, a very bad year, maybe the beekeeper would get 30 lbs per hive, which would be 720 lbs. The 30 lbs of rent honey would be more like 4.17% of the total crop, which would be significant for the beekeeper. So I would say on average the landowner gets 1-2% of the honey crop, while the beekeeper keeps the rest.

This is standard for commercial beekeeping where I am from. It could differ between regions, especially when the honey country differs greatly. You have to understand that beekeepers are like most farmers, they don't make a lot of money unless they operate lots of hives. 30 lbs of honey is way more than the average american family consumes in a year, so most landowners are completely enthralled with this type of arrangement. Personally I eat about 120 lbs of honey each year, so obviously I have to keep a few hives just to feed myself. If you make an arrangement with a beekeeper who doesn't know what is standard for leasing a spot for bees, then they probably are not really doing it for a living. And when they hear how little of a percentage a commercial outfit gives the landowner, they may think that they shouldn't share that much of the honey. But if you can't keep your landowner happy, you are not going to have the spot for long.

Remember, the beekeeper is taking all the risk in keeping hives. The landowner usually just risks getting stung. There is so much work involved in keeping hives commercially, and you usually don't know how much the beekeeper works unless you stay home 24-7 to make sure the beekeeper isn't coming to work the hives. Beekeepers operate on natures time, and show up to bee yards when they need to. Usually the landowner is working somewhere else and we rarely see each other. Extracting honey is a very small part of the work, most of the work involves keeping them alive and in the equipment. It is great that you watch over the bees and provide water, but remember that you don't really see all the work the beekeeper does to make a living. Not all of it is done in the bee yard.

Of course, it sounds like your beekeeper is not very professional and may be taking advantage of you. My suggestion is to not be confrontational, but inquisitive. As questions like; "How many hives do you keep?', "How long have you been keeping hives?", "Where did you learn how to keep bees?", "How was your last season?", "How is this year shaping up?", or "How are the bees doing?". This way you can accurately compare your situation to most commercial operations who run 500 or more colonies, have been doing it for years, have learned by working for other beekeepers, and are usually honest enough to make sure the landowner is happy with the honey for rent situation. Their business kind of depends on it.

I hope this helps! Feel free to have me clarify anything I said here and if you have more questions please ask!

Jake Wustner

I would recommend only feeding honey unless it is unavailable and you are trying to prevent your colony from dying of starvation. And though people say don't feed honey from other people's bees because you could get foul, I think it is still better than sugar for that also encourages disease. If it is your first year, buy some honey locally from a trusted source. Otherwise you should save enough feed honey each year for emergencies before you harvest any for yourself. And if there is any knapweed growing on your mountain, which I have seen it at higher elevations, then the bees should be able to collect enough nectar to make it through 6 months of dearth if they had a good year. Feeding sugar doesn't really fit in line with permaculture beekeeping or treatment free beekeeping.

Michael,

I assume that you don't know much about me, just as I don't know any thing about you except what you have posted here on permies. A little background about me. Born and raised in Missoula, MT to a commercial beekeeper, I grew up in the bees. I studied at Northland College and earned my degree in environmental studies with an emphasis in public policy. After college I became a self made business person by running a couple hundred hives with my brother using organic treatments. A couple of years ago I left that company and started treatment free. I had about a hundred hives, 80 of which had typical commercial queens and 20 that had queens I bought from Bee Weaver. Of all those hives that went through my treatment free trial, only 12 of the Weavers survived. And none of the other ones. This was a huge blow to my confidence as well as my ability to make a living from keeping bees. I understand my circumstances are unique, but I feel that I have learned a lot and have a desire to share my experiences and thoughts about them.

The point is that by stressing living systems you can see which ones are thriving and have robust genetics and which ones don't.

In the context of agriculture and livestock we tend to selectively breed from those with the traits we want and cull those we don't.

So my question to you Jacob - if instead of using a STUN approach and letting natural pressures do the selection he was actively managing his hives but personally culling colonies (extreme version - gassing them with dry ice, less extreme - pinching the queen and requeening with bees from another colony) with genetic traits he didn't like would that be ok in your book? The ultimate test of bees viability in the real world is if they can survive without human inputs - if they need those crutches then their genetics are not strong enough and over time they should be selected out.

I get this, but what I don't get is how the STUN technique transfers from plants to livestock. Are there examples of livestock breeding where leaving the animals alone for four years was used to select survivor stock? I am sure there maybe, but it seems quite extreme and inefficient to me. For honeybees, I feel that this selective breeding has already been done in nature, and not with the help of humans. And there is no need to try this STUN technique when all you need to do it open mate your queens or catch feral swarms.

Actually, if you have read this thread you will see that there are a lot of people here who are very knowledgeable about bees, and the issues facing bees at the moment.

Yep, I read this tread and never said anything about people not being knowledgeable about bees or the issues they are facing. I said there were a lot of bad ideas presented here and that people needed to do more research before they jump to conclusions.

Opinions in this thread are pretty diverse but there is a general consensus that:

bees are struggling to fight off varroa and other pests
That the genetic traits needed exist in the bee population (hygenic behaviours, local climate adaptations) but have been weakened by generations of beekeeper intervention (imported queens, chemical treatments for mites, feeding etc...)
That selecting for these traits is desirable

I usually am not concerned with consensus as much as I am concerned about doing what I feel is better for earth.

I feel that the only bees struggling to fight off varroa are the ones kept commercially by humans, and that there are plenty of honeybees in the wild that have already overcome living with varroa. As far as other "pests", honeybees are only struggling with them when man puts them into his "hives" and neglects to take precautions against these life forms you have described as pests. I have a problem with bears so I use an electric fence, but I don't call them pests. Also I feel that the commercial honeybees don't have the genetics to survive in the wild, but the wild bees definitely do. And selecting for these traits is desirable, but this is done on a yearly basis with open mating or catching feral swarms and not by starting a hive from whatever kind of honeybees and leaving it alone for four years.

Now a selfish beekeeper to my mind is one who gives his own bees a short term boost through treatments - ensuring their own short term profits and honey harvest at the expense of bees as a species (through weakened genetics, stronger mites).

If you don't know how to keep bees alive without treatments, then you should definitely treat them(if you have them) until you have learned how. Otherwise you are wasting life and time. IF you start out with open mated queens or feral swarms, then sure forego the treatments to see if they are what you are looking for. But if you buy bees, or collect a swarm from a commercial outfit, then you should consider taking action to bring the bees into the direction you are seeking. I personally am a fan of Dee Lusby and do think that natural cell size has a lot to do with it. This is not to say that you need to believe it, but if you were taking her advice and were trying to regress bees down to a natural size in order to stabilize a hive from a weak genetic background, then that would be a whole lot better than just assuming that neglecting hives is going to naturally select the strongest hives. There are so many other factors determining the survival of a honeybee colony, that if one does completely neglect a hive, they will have no real clue as to why it may have died and will just assume it is one thing when it could be another.

Also, urban areas are fantastic for bees - far better than many agricultural/rural areas, where mono-crop planting mean there area simply no flowers at all in whole regions. Urban areas are diverse and florally abundant, and there is some evidence that this results in higher bee survival rates.

I assume you are from the UK, where maybe urban areas are better than agricultural areas for honeybees. I don't know because I have never been there. This is definitely not the case where I am from. There is so much pollution in the typical urban environment in the US that I recommend that people do not keep bees in the city. And if they do I suggest that they do not consume the honey or anything else from the hive. They could harvest and save it for the bees, but eating it is a health risk. And if it is a health risk for people then it is definitely not better for the bees. Your urban areas may seem diverse and "florally abundant", but the typical urban environment in the US is full of poison and desert monoculture. In Montana, the agricultural landscape is generally pastoral or hay fields unless you get out into the wheat. These places, like North Dakota, are awesome for honeybees and have more diversity and flowers than the urban areas(if they aren't blanketed with herbicides). Of course diverse floral sources are better for the bees, but generally there is far more diversity in the rural areas than the urban ones in the US. There are always exceptions of course.

Actually what you have just suggested is a recipe that no one, ever, will be able to follow. It maybe ideal habitat for bees (although personally I dispute that - bees benefit from a huge diversity of flowers, including grasslands and meadow flowers) but it totally fails to see the value of integrating bees into the world we already have. Why wait to build a perfect but unobtainable situation when we could and probably should be taking action now?

I hope to follow this recipe someday, not bulldozing houses but planting food forests like Sepp Holzer. Grasslands do not benefit bees if there are no flowers. I agree that bees do well in all locations, but they seem to prefer trees to inhabit instead of caves or holes in the ground. Plus, if there is water, there will be trees in most environments in the world. So in theory, even in the grasslands, forests will benefit the bees more than no trees. And I am not waiting for a perfect situation because it is alway right here, right now in front of us. I call it permaculture in action. Unobtainable is not a word I would use in describing the planting and growing of food forests or trees in general. No one "should" do anything, but anyone can if they want to.

I am merely trying to suggest that the STUN technique may be very appropriate for someone to use in selecting plants, but honeybees are far more complicated and complex and deserve better from us.

I see little value in raising food from honeybees in urban setting because you cannot control where they go. Growing vegetables and fruits may be safer, but there is always a lot of pollution in a city, and the bees will get into it.

Again I will state my belief that if you want to help honeybees, educate people about policies that are better for them. It seems to me that most people who want to help the honeybees would be better off examining how their lifestyle and resource consumption affects the bees rather than getting bees themselves in hopes that somehow this is going to fix the problem. This is similar to the native plant enthusiasm, which Paul has a great article on. We try to plant gardens with a "natives only" approach, while still supporting the society that destroys the habitat which once supported those plants. I agree with Toby Hemenway when he says people would be much better off helping the native plants by growing their own food as to relieve the pressure of food production from potentially wild lands. This is exactly how I feel about helping honeybees. Growing all of your own food would help honeybees the most, plus it would also give more value to the integration of bees into our worlds. Right now, the bees are doing poorly in places where people have fucked with nature too much. And I would include the modern urban landscape as being a main culprit in the destruction of honeybee habitat. In my opinion of course.

Jake

In order for me to help make my points understood, I am going to pound them in.

Todd,

Harvesting honey, leaving them alone and not bothering them is not neglect to me. I want to be perfectly clear on this. Neglect, to me, is where you don't care to take the time to make sure all is well with your critters. Of course people's reasons for keeping honeybees are varied. But they are all human-centric for the simple fact that there are plenty of feral hives in the wild, all over the world. Keeping bees is a human interaction with nature much like raising cattle.

Does anyone want me to go deeper into this?

Marty, Neglect is a horrible thing to do to something that you bring into existence. It doesn't matter how you describe honeybees to yourself, they are living beings deserving respect and reverence just like anything in life. The whole premise for your hive design was based on the idea that you wouldn't have to do anything and just leave for years, expecting that you are helping honeybees. This need to be addressed. Creating a thread was a means for you to learn more about an idea you have had. Sadly, many others have had the same idea as you and have let innocent honeybees die in the process of learning what not to do. I am here to help you and others avoid creating unnecessary pain and suffering in the world. I have gone through this painful experience of neglecting my honeybees myself. I strongly recommend not going this route, for I believe there is a better, more educated way.

This thread is just scratching the surface of what we do know about honeybees and what we can do to better our relationship with them. Unfortunately, many ideas presented here are not helpful to the honeybees. There is so much information out there, and yes this is a great place for discussion, but we need to do more research before making a bunch of assumptions. Honeybees don't need us to reproduce or evolve. They need us to be educated enough to help direct policy in our society that is beneficial to all life. That is the most important that we can do for the bees.

And to say that bees have to earn their keep for their own slice of heaven is just mean to the bees in my opinion. I think that they work harder than humans ever will and they don't need blessings from any one human for their right to exist.

I don't believe that a hive design could be considered a habitat. It is a man made cage just like a factory farm. Habitat for honeybees is the whole environment. The sky, the earth, the water, the plants, predators, everything. What we are doing as humans is killing that habitat. How many other bees, bugs, birds are we putting in cages and walking away from for four years?

From the description of where you live, it is a poor location for honeybees. That doesn't mean it cant be done or they wont fair well on good years, but on bad years they will die from starvation because of the human interference in their environment. Not to mention all the pollution from humans that they will have to cope with. Places like these are far from adequate to leave honeybees to their own devices in my opinion. If you lived in the wilderness, then I would be ok with it.

Catching a swarm isn't bad for the bees, but the trap itself is a poor design for a permanent hive. A hollow log would be way better, but then it would not be a swarm trap.

If you were to provide the best possible habitat for the bees, then you would bulldoze the human settlement in which you reside and let nature take over. And then you could make some log hives. It really is that simple. What has been going on in this tread is just the reinventing of the wheel so to speak. Hive designs that best benefit humans have been fine tuned over thousands of years. This isn't anything new.

To me, people who neglect their livestock are farmers with poor husbandry practices. And the people who neglect their bees, well we(beekeepers) call them honey farmers because they generally are interested in only one thing. This is the mentality where the flow hive has come from.

There are so many examples of people doing really awesome stuff with honeybees, and people doing really horrible things as well. But there is no need to bad mouth others for not seeing a better way. There is a need in my heart to help people see the accidents that are coming down the road before they run into them.

I want to reinforce that just because one thinks they are doing what is best for the bees by neglecting them, doesn't mean that it is always the best option. If you are talking about not treating bees for disease, I wouldn't call it neglect, I would call it treatment free beekeeping. Treating for disease is a tiny fraction of what a commercial beekeeper does, yet people tend to point fingers and demonize commercial beekeepers for doing this.

I would like to think we all make concessions in order to achieve the goals and dreams we are seeking. This could be using computers to share information while their production and use takes a toll on the environment. It could be letting the weak honeybee colonies succumb to disease or starvation in order to successfully breed stronger genetics through human selection. It could be a commercial beekeeper using treatments in order to make a living and survive. But utter neglect is a dangerous path to take if you have not taken the time to think things through. There are so many things that could go wrong and your time would have not been well spent.

Knowing what to do and when, is what makes a beekeeper a good one.

There is no need to be dramatic here. When you live in tune with nature, there is plenty of drama. And human drama becomes quite dull and even annoying.

I hope this clarified my point. If you were to rethink this thread and rename it, I would suggest traditional log hives mimic nature the best and require the least amount of care. Everything else is just more beneficial for humans.

Please don't take my advice as an attack on anyone or anyone's ideas. And please feel free to ask me to clarify my points if you desire, for I know I tend to go over people's heads when it comes to the world of the honeybees.

Jake Wustner

I just thought I would chime in. And though there is some great stuff in this discussion, there are a lot of bad ideas as well. Lets start with the first one.

Why would you ever try to keep honeybees and neglect them? Would you have a child just to neglect it? I understand the reasoning for wanting to help wild honeybee populations, but this mentality does nothing to make things better for honeybees. It just promotes ignorance which is what we need to fight. You are better off just admitting that you want to keep honeybees to benefit yourself, than to lie to yourself about doing it for the common good. Lying to yourself and others is very harmful.

If we(humans) didn't exist, honeybees would carry on fine without us. But in our ignorance, we seem to be wanting to pull them into extinction with ourselves. The problem here is that the honeybees are not going to disappear on their own. And trying to patch up a problem without solving it just makes it worse.

If you don't know what I am talking about, then you need to do a lot more research before you decide that you want to be a beekeeper.

So Marty, it seems that you already have put a lot of thought into this hive design. Are you able to admit that you are doing it for yourself yet? If you cant be there for your livestock, then you should wait until you can be before you get them. You can always put a swarm trap out, but that is done for the explicit intention of acquiring honeybees for one's self. Otherwise it is not the best for the bees.

If one were to provide habitat for honeybees, I would suggest planting forests. Forests designed to grow old in a polyculture with no human maintenance. And spend time thinking about how to best do that. Then you could honestly say "this is the best design for honeybees that you would never need to care for". Otherwise, when you start putting bees in human made spaces, you should start thinking how to provide the best possible life for them. Just having hives does nothing for wild populations. True feral honeybees exist because of habitat, not hollow spaces. There are plenty of hollow spaces in nature.

First I would like to address the first three posts on this thread, for we have gotten a bit off topic by now. First, the varroa mite did not become a problem because of plastic foundation, cell size had been enlarged and standardized long before. Second, they did not spread in a single year because of almond pollination, though the transport of bees all across the country for various pollinations and honey crops certainly sped up their dispersal. Thirdly, varroa mites had been documented in other areas of the world in honeybee colonies, they just weren't killing the entire colony. And beekeepers have been able to put the genie back in the bottle so to speak and find an equilibrium. Some have done it with breeding, some have done it converting back to a natural size (small cell). Ok, that is just my understanding of the situation after following the issue for years.

David,

Beekeeping is a type of farming. So yeah, the philosophical basis is to grow and harvest food. An industry doesn't necessarily mean it is industrial, although it sounds like it could. In our language they are not always interchangeable.

We know that drones don't feed themselves for the first part of their lives, but eventually can later on. They also have a daily routine of flying to drone congregation areas at a certain time of day to hang out with other drones while they wait for the chance to chase and mate with a virgin. Their presence in the hive probably keeps the girls in the hive happy, knowing their future relies on the drones should something happen to the queen. Thus they have a happy number of drones and drone cells in a healthy colony that they decide for themselves. I am sure there is variation in percentages here. Of course we don't know a lot about the bees, but since they have been studied closely for hundreds of years, there is more information about we do know about them than one person can read in their lifetime. Just like the rest of nature, the more we dig deeper to understand, the more we are amazed and mystified by their sophistication. My guess is that males are larger because they have large gonads and a need to be able to fly slightly faster than a virgin queen. The size of the comb can vary, but usually it is because of the honey flow. IF it is coming in fast, they will build larger than drone brood cells to keep up with the need for honey storage space. At least this is my understanding. I agree that heat and scent is important. But as far as I have seen, all new comb is thin, and only becomes thicker when the bees rework it or hatch brood in it.

Tel,

I still see no need to knock anything. I guess I am trying to be more like Paul Wheaton and not being angry at bad guys. There is a great danger in telling people that they should or shouldn't do something. We instead can offer alternatives. But the beekeepers who you make fun of are doing the same thing to you. Doesn't do anyone any good.

In my experience the style of hive, or the space that the bees inhabit on their own, does not have to be set in stone. Frames or no frames, people are keeping bees that are healthy without treatments for diseases. As far as I can tell, the honeybee is quite adaptive to its environment. They do seem to prefer hives that have combs already in them, and cavities within a certain volume range. But that doesn't seem to deter them from making homes in all sorts of places. Frames have enabled us to learn more about the honeybees, and have enabled people to learn more about them through hands on experience and observation. They also make beekeeping more economically viable by not having to crush comb and reusing it. I do produce comb honey for people to consume, wax and all. But if you crush every comb you harvest, or sell it as comb, your business growth rate is severely stunted. Also, when using frames in boxes, there is not any need to handle individual frames unless you are extracting them. And this is after you have taken them off the hive. In this way it is no different than warre other than being way easier. Using frames is a great way for people to learn about all the different things that can go on within a hive. If you don't care to know, that is fine. I feel like bees build the same whether they are in boxes with frames, empty boxes, hollow trees or the wall of a house. They use gravity and fill the space as they grow. I am not curious about consequences of management practices of others, I have seen it for my own eyes. I consider myself learning all the time.

If you are measuring comb size, measure across ten cells and divide by ten. Gives you a fairly accurate measurement. And you measuring your available comb and sharing it here has given me even more reason to support the small cell theory. The size of adult bees varies by the age of the bee and whether or not they are on a honey flow. It also changes with the seasons. So if you are going to go on the size of adult bees on your entrances, there a few variables you need to consider. In this case you would have to take a lot of measurements over a period of a few years. It is way easier to measure worker brood comb size. You don't have to measure combs in you established hives if you don't want to, but quickly measuring brood you take from cut outs would be useful. Swarms with two different colorations are well documented, they usually united on their own accord.

And who said anything about demagogues? That is a strong name to be calling someone.

Are you suggesting that I am mixing up correlation and causation? I don't believe there is ever a perfect experiment, they all have flaws. That is why we have to do so many experiments, the human brain can be too egotistical to see that controlling all variables is impossible. I grew up in agriculture, and for most farmers they find something that works for them and stick with it. We can share our experiences and that is what Dee has done and lots of others are doing as well.

Farmers have always done what they felt they had to do to put food on the table. But thankfully in this age of communication, we are evolving at a much faster rate. That is why we are here on permies to share our thoughts and experiences. Not to bad mouth each other, but to celebrate the bounty of nature and share its lessons. IN NO WAY do I feel like I have all the answers, I am just sharing my thoughts of questions I have been asked and have asked myself. I have been blessed to have been born into a beekeeping family. And I cherish the idea that I can take all the good things I have learned, and share it with others. And that includes learning the hard way on how to keep bees more naturally.

David,

The bees built drone comb because they didn't have enough of it in the hive to their liking. That is always what they do when they feel like they need more. I knew this may happen, and trying it confirmed it for me. Having a range of cell sizes doesn't sit well for me. They have two sizes generally, worker brood cells and drone brood cells. They will fill either with honey and pollen. I am not trying to say that drones are bad, for we do know what they do. This is well documented.

In the frames without foundation, some of them started drone comb, but when the queen ran out of space to lay, they built worker comb in the middle. I assume this is how most frames will be drawn out when introducing empty frames in this scenario. That is why foundation will save the beekeeper time and money by not waiting for the bees to do what the beekeeper wants. And yes the drone combs should be moved to the outside, but when there is an empty space in the center of the hive they will gladly build drone comb there.

Mike,
I would agree with Dee that her practices are organic, I think that you mean that her standards do not align with the standards set by the national organic standards board. That doesn't mean she isn't organic, it means she is more organic, I would even say permacultural. I have never met her, but I assume her rudeness comes from years of people running their mouths around her. She is probably fed up, and I don't blame her. She rubs me the right way! I like passionate and strong-willed people who don't put up with b.s.. Maybe I am more like her than the kinder, gentler, diplomatic beekeepers. It is the same personality that I love in Paul Wheaton. They just tell it like it is, and don't care who they offend!

As for foundation, you could use wax small cell foundation in any type of hive if you want to experiment with it. But for me, as a beekeeper, I want to use langstroth. And it seems that converting to small cell will happen much faster if I use foundation.

I am glad you included this information from M. Bush!

I would like to add that no one calls it industrial beekeeping within the industry, it is commercial beekeeping. And you can use foundationless frames in an extractor if you are careful to make sure it has been in the bees for more than one season. If the bees get a chance to eat the honey, raise brood, and fill with honey two or three seasons, then the comb cell walls are made thicker and becomes considerably stronger. Brand new comb should either be sold as comb honey, or left in (or put back in) as feed honey to give it a chance to strengthen over a couple seasons before it can be extracted like the commercial beekeepers do. This was how the commercial beekeepers I learned from did it before the days of plastic foundation.

David,
The bees do know best for themselves, that is why they build different sizes for different functions within the hive. This is well known. Foundation is necessary for the conversion of large cell to small cell. If you try to do foundationless, they build what they like. For someone trying to make a living from keeping bees, foundation is a time saver and a money maker. I did foundationless frames this past season, but inside hives with combs already drawn. They built mostly drone comb, which is the nursery for varroa reproduction. Big mistake. IF you started with no drawn comb, it may work better. But bees prefer to have some comb already built when starting new hives, if you shake them into empty boxes with empty frames, they don't take as well. So for someone trying to keep their bees in their boxes, foundation is that much more incentive to stay. For you, foundation may not be the best, but that is for you. The varroa will climb up anything, even a hollow log if it has a bottom. Dee has every right to ban people from her forum, especially if they suggest things that are contrary to what she is trying to teach. She may be stubborn, but everyone know that. That is partly why she is so awesome. If she allowed a range of views in her forum, people would be even more confused. Every beekeeper has their own methods and philosophies.

Tet,
Dont knock something if you haven't tried it. These invasive interventions you speak of are only invasive from your perspective. Most beekeepers call it working. That is awesome you have a bunch of hives that are from swarms and cut-outs, but numbers would be nice here. Careful observation works for describing colors, behaviors and the like, but measurements describe sizes. Numbers of hives, sizes of worker brood cells, and the longevity of each hive compared to its worker brood cell size. Otherwise I have nothing to compare it to. I never said anyone is infallible. But Dee Lusby is an inspiration for hundreds if not thousands of beekeepers world wide who want to do organic beekeeping. From listening to people's stories who are on its list, it seems that the small cell size has allowed people to keep bees without treatment for many years. But that doesn't mean it is the small cell that does it, maybe it is genetics. Dee sure has a whole lot of experience and wisdom, despite her strict policies. Reading her work is still enjoyable for me, and I agree with her on lots of issues, that is why I suggest that people do. I also suggest people do more research before telling others that their way is the way to go. I still want to prove small cell for myself. I have waited too long, mostly because people told me it didn't work. Maybe in a couple of years I will agree with them, and maybe I will agree with Dee. Until then, I stand by my years of experience and all of the research I have been doing on my own. For what it is worth, I am transitioning from a conventional beekeeping operation to a permaculture one. And I plan to make my living from it for the rest of my life.

I have read the article, not swayed. Not that it isn't accurate, but it's in the industry to reject small cell theory. Have you tried small cell or treatment free? Have you measured brood from feral hives in your area? I have no clue how many hives were moved around in ancient times, and our pollination scenario can spread disease, but it isn't at fault for varroa or any honeybee disease we have. I think people should still read Lusby's work. I was skeptical at first, but after hearing all the people doing small cell successfully I decided I am going to try it on a commercial scale. Starting this spring, I will keep everyone posted on how it goes.

Not from MN or ND, but from MT. I can tell you though, some of the best honey country in the US is in North Dakota and Minnesota, and both have tons of beekeepers!

From my experience, honey bees don't have a detrimental effect on local pollinators, in fact I see the opposite. This may be because the honey bees efficiently pollinate plants that are the best for them, thus increasing the numbers of those plants. This increases the presence of pollinator plants, thus providing more forage for both honey bees and other pollinators. Maybe this is why so much of our food is pollinated by both honey bees and other pollinators. Many others disagree with this, but they don't watch the blooms and the cycles of the seasons like I have to.

No, a thousand times no. It's enlarged cell size that has been going on long before plastic frames. If you want to know, check out Dee Lusby on bee source.com under POV. She will straighten you out. Bees have been moved around by humans for thousands of years. Almond pollination helps spread diseases, but doesn't create them. Plastic isn't good for anyone, bees or humans.

Plant alfalfa with dandelions, which is food for bees, pigs and chickens. Build berms with straight gravel and plant with knapweed and sweet clover for honey bee and other pollinator forage. Plant mustard for people food, also a bonus for pollinators. I am sooooo biased!

No one came to learn how to build a bee hut except me. I can't wait to build 100 more of them. This one holds 2-3 hives. All the rest will be big enough for 16-24 hives depending on the location

Knapweed, sweet clover, alfalfa, dandelion, in that order is the best for bees in Montana.

Hey Y'all Missoulians! I am hosting a workshop at the Moon-Randolf homestead on Saturday, and we will bee building my first bee hut! All that attend get a free glass of mead (if you are of age), and will be able to burn their name into the bee hut. Also we will be sculpting a log hive with a chainsaw. If you say that Paul Wheaton sent you, then you get a 50% off coupon for a future class or workshop! Please call or email me if you plan on attending so I can bring enough mead!

A Bee Hut Workshop in Missoula this weekend! Also, we will be sampling my clover honey mead from this year and sculpting a log hive with a chainsaw!

I am selling my house which comes with 2 acres of organic/permaculture managed land. The house was built in 2010, is only 1344 sq ft but is nice! 3 bd/2 bath, 2 car garage. Irrigation rights that allow for water 24/7 when it is on, usually May through the fall. The house is beautifully built, and the ability to do rainwater/greywater systems is easy. Not much slope to work with, but the soil is nice. Its an old alfalfa field that is waiting to become a forest. Many plantings have been done as well as small earth works, but the potential to be a very productive permaculture farm is just budding. I just wanted to sell it to someone who wants to farm without chemicals. Would sell as low as possible to someone into permaculture. Asking price is 190k, which mostly is for the house. but I would budge for a permie. But the 6 1/2 ft perimeter fence allows you to grow and keep just about anything. Fruit and shade trees have been planted, as well as some perennial herbs and veggies. Willing to sell the house with half a dozen treatment-free honey bee colonies if someone was into it. After a month I will put it on the market. First dibs here though.

Al Aric, Yes I will be doing classes again next year. I may change the format a little bit, and I am open to suggestions as how to structure the classes. I still have 3 classes left this season. And I recently found a location to do classes in Missoula! They will be held at the Moon-Randolf homestead in Missoula on the same saturdays that I teach a class in Stevensville at Wildwood Brewery. The classes at the homestead will run from 11 am until 3 pm. Please call or email me to let me know you are coming! Check out my facebook page, Sapphire Permaculture Apiary for more info or to find out how to contact me. Also I plan to do some workshops this fall/winter. The first one will be building different styles of hives, including warre, langstroth, top bar hives and traditional log hives. Please post here if you have anymore questions or suggestions. Thanks!

One key thing here is that Sepp has paddock-shift systems with both trees and shrubs so his grazing animals don't have to dig through as much snow. Also, he increases temperature of the landscape with sun traps and lakes/ponds. If there is a hard winter storm, he has earth shelters for the livestock and root cellars filled with fruit and vegetables. If he ever has to feed, he is always able to. But he does have a waterfowl house on a pond with moving water to prevent to ice forming in the house. He always puts himself in the shoes of his animals/plants and asks himself if he would be comfortable there.

Does Sepp sell his honey? And if so, how much does he sell it for?

Thanks Emily, Jocelyn and Paul for your help!

Thanks Jocelyn! Ryan, feel free to contact me if you want to talk bees, and also check out my thread for the classes I am offering this year!
https://permies.com/t/35223/missoula/Beekeeping-Classes-beginners-permaculturalists

Hey Yall!

I just wanted to let everyone know about my beekeeping classes that I am offering this year. The first round is this coming weekend the 26th and 27th of April. I will hold the class at Wildwood Brewery in Stevensville, MT from 4-8 pm on Saturday the 26th, and the 27th it will be held at my place from noon until 4 pm. The cost is $20/person and I will have classes the last Sat/Sun of each month until September. Each class will focus on specific topics related to the season as well as basic honeybee care. Please visit my facebook page, Sapphire Permaculture Apiary for more details.

Sincerely,

Jacob Wustner

Paul,

Awesome, fucking awesome podcast. Loved every minute of it! Thanks for the mention! I look forward to the rest of them!!

For me personally,

Natural Beekeeping means doing it how they did fifty years ago. With smoke, using whatever style of hive you like, and doing the management how you like. It means jack shit today because natural means jack shit compared to permaculture. People call their shit natural and they use tons of synthetic pesticides and antibiotics, plastic, nasty shit in their smokers, etc..

Permaculture Beekeeping is far more advanced. It is permaculture principles used in designing the elements of your apiary/beekeeping system.

Basics first.

Type of honeybees. Catching swarms, baiting swarms and breeding from hives not treated with pesticides and antibiotics. That is the permaculture standard. The natural standard is buying commercially produced queens that come from bees treated regularly.

Style of Hives/Houses. For style of hive you can do whatever you like, but there can be no foundation, no wires, no plastic, no paint. I personally recommend langstroth or top bar hive designs, and even hollowed logs for the northern climates. All designs are acceptable, and I believe the more artistic and creative, the more permaculture-esque it will be. Langstroth is far more efficient in terms of honey production and colony replication. I would recommend top bar hives for those who can't lift very much weight.

Frames are wonderful, you don't have to use foundation or wires. You can make them without very expensive tools. You can design and shape the frames yourself. A frame is a frame, plastic foundation is another thing completely. Bees will draw their own comb in a frame neatly and efficiently. You don't have to extract the honey from frames in expensive equipment. You can do comb honey in a frame without wax foundation. You can build your own extractor for next to nothing with basic tools if you are resourceful.

Management. A reverence for the bees and all of nature. A thoughtful mind state when working the hives. Being careful not to crush any bees while working. Natural beekeeping doesn't value individual bee lives over time. Permaculture does. Smoke has to be very limited use only, and never for harvesting. I would only allow smoke for very invasive processes like feeding frames of honey and manipulating frames to raise queens and when making nucs. Otherwise it is a tool to be used for the safety of the bees and for people. Natural beekeeping allows nasty shit to be burned in the smoke, and the smoke is used liberally to make working the bees faster and more pleasant for the beekeeper.

Feed. In a permaculture apiary, planting specifically for the honeybees and pollinators in general is the difference. Taking all plants into consideration and listening to what the bees are wanting at different times of the year. This is how you feed honeybees, planting seeds or plants for pollinator forage. Natural beekeeping relies on what the farmer plants which usually isn't placing what the bees need high on the list.

Design of a system. It means using honeybees as one part of your system to feed and interact in many ways with other elements of the whole system. What crops you plant, how you provide water and shelter for the bees is part of the permaculture design.

It means not sending your bees to pollination, but bringing the forage to the bees doorstep. The bear-proof bee-hut makes it a permaculture apiary.

It is expressed as the knapweed honey in your tea or bacon cure, your royal jelly harvested when the hawthorn, chokecherry and service berries are in bloom. It is dandelion pollen harvested from your polyculture, stock pastures. Its the wild areas left for predators and prey alike.

Doing what Paul advocates (catch/bait swarms, beehut, no foundation) is permaculture, feeding your bees gmo beet sugar water is considered natural.

I would like to emphasize that the design of the shape and style of the hive is not as important as doing what is best for your situation. It is not as important as what you build it out of, and how you manage it once it is established. The design of the hive structure will make the system as a whole, work for the better or worse.

Paul,
Best movie on bees yet. Seriously fucking awesome. Got me thinkin, we should put out the word to the missoula permies people, that we need swarms of honeybees to populate the laboratory this coming spring. Now is the time to put the word out, that if there are people in the area willing to be on the lookout for swarms and contact us immediately, we can for sure have at least a couple of possibly-wild swarms. I think we should still strive to bait for swarms at the lab, but this could be another way to secure some colonies for the new equipment. We must emphasize the fact that once a swarm has been identified, we need to be notified immediately in order to have even a chance of catching it before it moves to another location.