There is a mirror wallet site up and running at https://xdp.plddr.eu/#. Thank you Patrick Lodder! You can create a new wallet or check your old wallet there. Be advised, that if you had more than one wallet address you may need to use the create new wallet button to see your other wallets. Since this is a hierarchical deterministic wallet, it will create the same key pairs based on your 12 word passphrase every time and coins stored in additional wallets will appear when that wallet is re-created.
So Andrea, feel free to create a wallet and I will send you some Permies tokens.
Technically my offer is still valid, but there are some issues...
I also can't get into the wallet application, so I am currently unable to make good on my offer. Technically speaking, the protocol is still working perfectly. That is to say that everyone's permies coins are recorded on the dogecoin blockchain, and if you had the math and computer skill to create a transaction from scratch, you could send them. Unfortunately, the wallet application is still down, and I for one don't have the programming skills to use the protocol at that raw of a level. I am disappointed, I was hoping this would take off as far as having more developers involved and mirrored wallet applications, but as it stands there are only a few people working part time on this. Without more support and reliable tools that are always available, having a working platform is not doing the permies any good. It's like we have a bunch of Betamax tapes, but no player.
Counterparty, the bitcoin based token system that dogeparty was copied from is still going strong, and developing at a dizzying pace. At this point I don't hold much hope that dogeparty will gain enough support to catch up on all the new development that has happened in this space. I thought that the lower cost and faster transaction times would attract a lot of attention, but that has not been the case. I do hold some XCP, and could potentially recreate this experiment on this more reliable network if there is interest. I know there is already a some type of permaculture based tokens on the counterparty platform, but I really don't know much about them yet.
I do apologize to anyone who feels that this was a waste of their time. But my intent was and still is to offer the chance to learn about and experience this potentially world changing technology first hand.
I have to agree that having debt based money that is dependant on endless growth is a major driving force in many of the problems we face.
Certainly there will always be a place for physical exchanges. Barter, not just of items, but also of time, labor, reputation, and favours is such a huge part of the true basis of wealth for any society, and these things can not be quantified and put in a ledger so easily. But beyond our local circle, when we trade with enemies and strangers, we must have some system that can keep track of value. For the first time since the days when commodities acted as cash, we have a method to do that which didn't require a central authority to operate and I am just so excited to see where that can take us.
But I do have to correct you and say that you can actually hand someone some bitcoin. You can put the private keys on a piece of paper or stamp them in metal and exchange them that way. Of course (unless you are freaky good at math) you would need help from a machine to verify that the numbers you receive are valid and really do correspond to value locked on the blockchain. But those kinds of machines are getting cheaper and more accessible every day.
Money, in and of itself, is not evil. It is simply a tool for social interaction. It is almost instinctual. Left to themselves, third graders will create money. They will barter for gum, or trading cards or beads or some item that has attained value in their social circle.
Money has evolved through the centuries. First appearing as an item or commodity. Feathers, shells, beads, tobacco, sticks with notches on them, giant carved stones.... The list of items that humans have used for money through the ages is enormous. Then money went through it's first major evolution when we started using metals. Primarily gold and silver, and usually cast into specific shapes and denominations. In the middle ages, people would leave their heavy gold with the goldsmith and receive a paper receipt to claim it later. It didn't take them long to realize that it was easier to trade the receipts than to actually get the gold and move it around and we entered the era of paper bills that were backed by precious metals. The second transformation of money.
Fast forward to the United States under Nixon, and people have become so accustomed to using paper bills, that they no longer needed any backing to function. Thus we enter the third great evolution. The gold standard is abandoned, and we begin to use fiat money, otherwise known as "It has value because I said so!" This form of money has detached itself from the real world of tangible things and has allowed for some pretty disturbing behavior. It is created by a privately owned banking cartel called the Federal Reserve, and it's value seems to be derived from the threat of violence. It makes insanity, such as fractional reserve banking, derivatives, and credit default swaps possible. It has allowed a system of parasitic, rent seeking behavior to flourish and grow. Grow to the point that, I am supposed to sit here and accept the proposition that 15 minutes of time for a CEO or Stock Broker is equivalent to 40 years of my hard labor.
The problems we see are not intrinsic to the concept of money, only to the current iteration of money.
In 2008 a radical new invention by the anonymous person or persons known as Satoshi Nakamoto has opened the doors to the fourth major change in the form of money. A distributed ledger of ownership. A way to send value securely over an untrusted network. Just as we use this network of computers to exchange ideas, and receive information that would be otherwise inaccessible, bitcoin is allowing a new era of economic activity that was never possible before.
No more excluding 6 billion people from the financial world. No more middlemen taking a cut of the profits without adding any value to the system. No more banks creating money out of thin air and devaluing our savings.
Bitcoin as a currency, may or may not be the iteration of this technology that the world embraces. But the world will embrace this technology, just like it is embracing the internet, because it is advantageous to the individual to do so. And I have no doubt that the world will be a better place for it!
Great points Voy, I'd love to see PERMIES turn into something more than a game, but I don't think there is any clear road on how to get there. If people value them, then they will have value. I do think that a deflationary currency based on nothing is automatically superior to an inflationary currency based on debt, so we've got that going for us.
At the moment it would be a very simple matter for me to issue more PERMIES, as I have not yet locked the token. Locking the tokens is an irreversible action and will permanently set the number of PERMIES in existence. I have not done this yet, as I wanted to give the users and particularly the permie.com administrators a chance to weigh in on what is an appropriate quantity to have in circulation. I do plan to lock the tokens at some point though, as having the ability to issue currency out of thin air is a power that no human being can be trusted with, and I wouldn't expect anyone to put value into PERMIES knowing that I had such power.
For now I feel like there are plenty of tokens. I still have about 23 million to give away, and I would definitely want to see a bigger demand before considering a supply increase.
Well Voy, this is simply a way to experience using a simplified crypto currency without risking any real world value, so don't expect to be buying a new Porsche with PERMIES anytime soon.
But there are a few things you can do with them.
Marianne has offered to sell her native paw paw seeds for PERMIES in the post above, so there is now actually one thing you could buy with them.
You could also make new wallet addresses, and try sending some to yourself.
You could send some to another user here, or share some with a friend who has not yet experienced this.
You could learn how to make a paper wallet to store your coins securely offline, (any legit dogecoin paper wallet generator will work for this) Then learn how to import the private key into your dogeparty wallet to be able to access and spend your coins again.
You could help start a PERMIES economy by offering a good or service in exchange for them.
You could just hold on to them and hope they are actually worth something someday. (it's pretty doubtful but you never know)
If you happen to be a developer, you could create an improved wallet program or other software application that takes advantage of this new invention of decentralized trust.
1. Bitcoins are created by a mathematical algorithm, and awarded to miners as a reward for providing the computing power to process transactions and secure the network. The reward for mining gets cut in half periodically. In about 140 years we will reach the cap of 21 million bitcoins. At that point no new coins will be created, and the miners will only be rewarded with transaction fees.
2. The value of bitcoin comes from the belief of it's users that it has value and will continue to have value in the future. It is simply a unit of account. The price is determined by an average of the latest activity on exchanges.
3. The protocol is set and can only be changed by a majority consensus of the network. Banks are free to participate, just like every one else, but there is no central bank in control that can change the rules at will. A large entity taking control of the network is a real risk, and one that the community is very attentive to. If this were to happen, I imagine most users would move to another coin. There are already over 1000 different altcoins that implement blockchain technology in various ways. While bitcoin has the biggest network and has worked for 6 years now, there is no guarantee that it will succeed long term. I am confident that some version of this technology will be part of our future, but it may take some tinkering to get the protocol right.
And I think you are spot on about tiny, low power computers like raspberry pi and ardino connected into mesh networks replacing our current bulky data infrastructure. A very believable vision of what John Michael Greer calls our ecotechnic future. Where we take the technology that is able to survive the long descent of catabolic collapse and energy decline and learn to live in a more sustainable way because that is our only choice.
That is too funny, we both had the same idea, just different platforms. I have not yet tried counterparty, and to be honest I'm a bit intimidated at the thought of paying transaction fees in BTC, so I think I'll just stick with this for now and see what happens. But thank you for the offer, and let me know if there is something I can do to help if you get any big ideas.
10 doge are on the way, please verify when you receive them and I will send the PERMIES.
One thing though, is that while the android wallet will work fine for dogecoins, it will not be able to see dogeparty tokens, which is what PERMIES are. Currently the only wallet program capable of seeing and sending PERMIES tokens is an online deterministic wallet found at https://wallet.dogeparty.io Since it is an open source protocol, hopefully other developers will bring us other options before too long. The wallet is accessed using a passphrase made up of 12 random words. Make a new wallet there, and be sure to record your 12 words in a secure location. With those words you should be able to access your coins from any internet connected device. Send me your new address and we'll try this again.
Ok Will, your 10 dogecoin test is on the way. Let me know when you get them and make sure you can log out and back into your wallet ok. Don't forget to write down your passphrase, if it is lost there is no way to recover it and the coins will be gone forever.
One of the most common themes I find in both the permaculture and homesteading spaces is a desire for independence. An urge to avoid being part of and contributing to the hyper consumption driven marketplace that has gripped the modern world. To live independently and separate ourselves from values that offend us. And yet, this is mostly an illusion. We are all on this boat together. There is no place so far off grid that we can avoid taking part in the modern economic system. And every time we do, we must pay the gate keepers their toll. We have no choice but to pay the transaction fees necessary for transmitting value in order to get the essentials items we need. And in doing so, we inadvertently support the politics that work against the changes we want. We do this because we have no other choice, or at least we didn’t until 2008.
That is the year that an anonymous internet user going under the name Satoshi Nakamoto released a whitepaper outlining his proposal for a new system of digital cash that we know today as bitcoin. Satoshi provided the first practical solution to a decades old mathematical problem known as the Byzantine Generals problem. The idea is that a group of generals are surrounding a city with their armies, and will be able to conquer it with a coordinated attack. They can communicate with each other using a network of runners, but it is suspected that some of the generals may be traitors or there may be spies among the runners. So how can they send a signal that is trustworthy over a network that cannot be trusted? How can each general be sure that the other generals are sending the same order that they are? Satoshi solved this problem with the blockchain. A publically viewable, and widely distributed ledger of every transaction which cannot be tampered with or counterfeited thanks to some nifty cryptography and distributed consensus. That is how every node on the Bitcoin network stays in sync and maintains identical records.
For the first time in the history of humanity a common person can send a payment directly to another person, anywhere on the internet, for a very small fee. No middle man, no banks or money transmitters required, no permission needed, and no one can stop it from happening. If it is a valid transaction, the network will accept it and the transaction will happen. It is an open sourced program that is governed by math. If you can understand the code and the math than you can verify how it works but you would still need the consensus of a majority of the entire worldwide network in order to make changes or manipulate it. So we don’t need to trust people with this, we only need to trust the math. The small transaction fee is automatically paid to the miners who provide the computing power to support and protect the network.
Bitcoin is not user friendly, at least not yet. It takes a fair amount of learning and technical skill in order to be able to use it safely and effectively. Very similar to the way that sending an email back in 1993 required a computer science degree. But just like SMTP (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) existed and worked back then, the Bitcoin protocol exists and works today. As long as the network persists, new services and products will inevitably create a better and safer user experience.
So why should you bother learning about something so complicated and somewhat risky? Because you can. Because for the first time we have a choice over how we communicate real value to each other. Because for far too long, entrenched interests have positioned themselves where they can siphon wealth off of the river that flows through traditional financial services and then have used that wealth and power to manipulate our politics to their own advantage while providing nothing of value to society. Now we have a wormhole that can teleport our wealth instantly anywhere on the internet, and no one can take a piece of it along the way. We don’t have to fight them, we can simply stop funding and supporting them, by standing up and learning how to use tools that are now freely available to all.
Bitcoin is not anonymous, but it is pseudonymous. By this I mean that the users are identified only by their account numbers. If a person or organization can be associated with a particular address, then a history of transactions can potentially be teased from the blockchain. That is quite handy for law enforcement, as the blockchain is public knowledge and requires no warrant to view. Much better than trying to follow a paper trail through perhaps dozens of private banking institutions each requiring a separate warrant. Anonymity is possible, but takes great effort and any leaked address potentially exposes an entire network of activity. So the commonly held belief that bitcoin is somehow good for drug buying or money laundering is not very accurate, or at least it won’t be when law enforcement learns how to use this to enforce existing laws. I see a great potential in using publically disclosed addresses for a new level of accountability in things like charitable fundraising and political campaigns. The police will be able to use the blockchain to follow a money trail, but so will the public.
What bitcoin is very good at is protecting purchasers from fraud and identity theft. You can buy things online without giving up any personally identifiable information. You can send a bitcoin transaction over an unencrypted network for everyone to see, send it over the radio, or paint it on a billboard... It doesn’t matter, only the person with the private keys for that address will be able to spend those bitcoins and everyone else will only be able to look at it. If your private keys get stolen, your bitcoin will get stolen. Just like if your cash gets stolen it will be gone. But at least it’s not like a credit card where money you don’t even have yet can be stolen, or the information associated can be used to take out additional credit in your name. More and more the retailers are starting to realize that accepting bitcoin offers a huge advantage for them in eliminating most of the fees they pay for accepting credit cards and relieving them of the burden of storing and protecting their customer’s personal information.
The private keys that unlock an account number, can be stored and transferred by any means that we can send a number, on or offline, including USB data sticks or writing them on a piece of paper. A transaction can be signed without exposing the private key needed to create that signature, and then that transaction can be injected into any part of the network over any media. It could be done over shortwave radio or handwritten if necessary to circumvent attempts to stop it from happening. Not a very convenient method, but completely possible. A transaction could also be hidden in any type of digital file, encoded within a picture or video for example. So in order to ensure that no bitcoin transactions are taking place, a repressive government would have to stop all forms of communication and prevent the transfer of any form of physical data storage.
The bitcoin network requires an enormous amount of electrical power to operate, so it may not seem like the most environmentally friendly thing to do. But I believe that this will actually require less energy that cash, which must be manufactured, handled, and moved around at enormous expense, and will be comparable in energy usage to the predominant digital finance networks. This system has the potential to be a democratizing force in finance. To create real opportunities on the most fair and unbiased money system we have ever experienced. It fills a real human need to be able to communicate value in a tangible way, so I have no qualms about using some energy to do this. If you are reading this, than you have already decided that being able to access the internet, and exchange information and ideas is worth the environmental cost of doing so. I feel that bringing that same level of access to the world of currency is a natural extension on that line of thinking. With the advent of lightweight and more efficient computing, and things like mesh networks, it is likely that we will be able to run an effective system much more efficiently in the future.
The network that makes this currency work provides a framework that can also potentially support any other form of communication that requires an element of trust. Wills and trusts, legal contracts, registering property, registering events such as births and marriages, even voting could all one day be recorded on a blockchain with the precision of computer code; negating both the necessity and the ability to contest them in a court of law. Opening up access to such mechanisms to the masses that are now unable to afford access to our current legal system. No such system yet exists, but developers around the world are working new ways to implement blockchain technology. The ethereum network, scheduled to be launched within the next few months, promises to combine a complete programming language with its own blockchain to do exactly these kinds of things. It is just one of many projects working toward what is commonly called bitcoin 2.0. There are also literally hundreds of copycat currencies called alt-coins that range anywhere from outright scams to really innovative new concepts. It will be interesting to see if one of these alt coins offers enough of an advantage overtake the enormous network that bitcoin has grown over the last six years. The only thing that seems certain at this point, is that some form of blockchain based crypto-currency will be part of our future.
Bitcoin is a form of freedom that humanity has only just now experienced. It’s going to take some getting used to, and there are certainly risks in using it. To me it offers a glimmer of hope that we can change business as usual. A hope that this could pave the way for other changes. By defunding existing and entrenched systems of power we open the door to at least the possibility of doing our business in a smarter way. The possibility of living sustainably. Of bringing the ethics of permaculture out into the world at large. A tool like this is certain to attract its share of con artists, criminals, and other people of malign intent. But similar to what we have seen with the internet, I believe the overwhelming majority will be of moral people with good intent resulting in a net positive gain for society. Now that sounds like an appropriate use of technology to me.
I created PERMIES coin using the dogeparty protocol just for fun. If you are interested in experiencing this technology without risking any real value and have been a member of these forums for at least 1 month, I will give you some PERMIES. See this thread for details. https://permies.com/t/38737/financial-strategy/created-PERMIES-Coin
Wow Burra, that is really awesome that you are interested in taking this step already. Thank you for playing along!
Most currencies operate on a floating market rate. That is to say, that the value is determined by the amount of the latest transaction on an exchange. Usually this information is averaged across multiple exchanges to give us a market rate. Since PERMIES is not listed on any exchanges, we are sort of shooting blind on this one. What I can tell you, is that the first time someone actually conducts a transaction in PERMIES, is the moment that it becomes a real currency. Right now, it is really just an arbitrary set of tokens, distributed to a handful of people across the world. By offering your seeds in exchange for them, you will be effectively creating a new market and setting the market rate for them.
It is really up to you what you want to charge for your seeds. You would be a pioneer in doing this. I don't feel right throwing out a number as far as what I think they should be worth. What I can do is offer some statistics to help you understand the market better.
I have distributed PERMIES to 6 users to far in amounts ranging from 264,510 down to 251,546; for a total of 1,547,906 PERMIES out in the market so far. I am still holding 24,903,095 that I plan to distribute as long as I can find qualified users to take them. No one else will be getting over 1/4 million (unless Paul gets involved) and I plan to refrain from any economic activity until I have distributed them all.
Consider your time and effort, consider your expenses, and consider the transaction fees, then set the price where you think it should be, and adjust as needed.
The PERMIES coins are a token created on dogeparty, which is a meta-layer on top of the dogecoin blockchain. The PERMIES transactions are recorded on the dogecoin blockchain, using any valid key pair. Multidoge can create valid key pairs, so yes. PERMIES can be send to a public address created on multidoge, and retrieved using the private key that corresponds to that address.
The problem is that the multidoge wallet is not programmed to look for anything except dogecoin. In other words, if you send PERMIES to your mutidoge wallet, they will go there, but the wallet will not see them. In order to send them from an address created on multidoge, you would need to import the private key into the dogeparty wallet, or have enough technical skill to create a transaction manually and add it to the network.
This is a very new system, so at this point the wallet found at https://wallet.dogeparty.io/# is the only one that can send PERMIES. It is open source code, so hopefully more developers will get involved and we will have more wallet options soon.
Rick, the extra two dogecoin came with the PERMIES. The wallet seems to do that for some reason, but it's coming out of the transaction fee that I paid to send you the PERMIES. FYI 2 Dogecoin is currently worth $.000378 or almost 4% of a penny.
No the coins are lost now. Don't sweat it though, the value of 10 doge is extremely low and dogecoin has an inflationary model where approximately 5.2 billion new coins will be created every year forever. I think this is really interesting. Usually we think of inflation in terms of a percentage, which leads us to exponential growth, which is unsustainable. With dogecoin, after the initial 100 billion coins (yes they decided on that number because of Dr Evil) we will have a steady 5.2 billion a year to make up for lost coins and accommodate growth. That's 5% the first year, but a slightly smaller percentage every year after. So the Doge economy will grow, but not exponentially. Might just be the first currency to have a sustainable growth model, time will tell.
Rick, 1000 doge and 251,546 PERMIES are on the way to your new wallet. Thanks for playing.
No worries Rick. The deterministic wallets are tricky and take some getting used to. I actually messed something up on my first wallet. Still not sure if I switched the words or what, but that is why I do this small test run for new users.
I just sent 10 doge to your new wallet address. Make sure you have the correct key written down somewhere secure, and you should be fine going forward.
You are most welcome Kasey. And I think that is one of the most interesting aspects of all this. It is fun. I don't know if it's the feeling of freedom and control that makes it fun, or the goofy dog on the coin. But honestly, how often do we find ourselves using the word "fun" to describe anything in the financial world?