My plans for the high fenced area is as follows: Dig to a depth of 12 inches if possible. If I meet bedrock before that, then I will place rock-filtered soil back to a depth of 12 inches where appropriate, I will build a rock retaining wall on the down slope side to hold that topsoil. Where the bedrock is bowled, I will dig it out to make it a small collecting pond. I will work on also adding wood as possible as a foundation on the beds I create. I have to read more in this forum to determine if I can use Ashe juniper wood or not for decomposing, but it will work to hold soil. I also have to research fruit tree root depth and requirements. I planted two apple trees fairly near each other. The one tree survived, but the other died this year. I have to dig out that area and see if it is bedrock. The trees are about 20 feet apart from each other. Two peach trees lower on the slope are doing well, although one is much larger than the other on the same slope. So I have learned I really have to dig out the area before planting fruit trees, not just the standard given for fruit trees.

The cost of the infernal aerobic system made me cry! With it being a permanent cost in the need to pay for running a pump 24/7! I also had to be extremely careful what I put into the system, i.e., I had to maintain a pH value of neutral. I couldn't use vinegar to clean anything and certainly not the regular toilet bowl cleaners. I finally learned how to clean the toilet. I would flush the toilet with the water turned off and then dip how what I could of what water remained. Then I would use a turkey baster to get out every drop to get the extreme acidity from the vinegar to clean the bowl. Although I don't want to use toxic cleaning produces anyways, I couldn't even use vinegar or baking soda to clean in fear of changing the pH range.

Since I am a fruitarian now for health reasons, I don't think my poop has anything that is hurtful to anyone anyways long-term, like worm eggs or feedlot beef mega-germs. But buried in earth, nothing will reach any waterways because it would have to flow a very long ways downhill to get to a small water bed on its way to the Llano River many miles away. Humans survived many centuries with, I presume, burying or composting their stuff. Using fresh water to flow our poop is sheer insanity in the coming age of permanent drought for the SW US. And using electrical energy to power a pump for the aerobic bacteria to eat it is also sheer madness unless it is solar powered.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Carol Grosser wrote: I struggle on here alone in a land where people are clueless on permaculture.

Not entirely!

Yes, I believe we know each other! In fact, it was one of your e-mails to a local e-mail group exchange that caused me to reach this site and for years, your interest in permaculture finally took hold on me. For a long time, I, being of peasant stock, frowned on permaculture because the cost of seminars and the basic text was so high. I thought it was just another money raising scheme on something that had to be free for everyone given the urgent need for people to change their lifestyle and return to the peasant lifestyle of the 19th century that I grew up in from the later settlers of Central Texas. Financially, we were way behind the earlier settlers of the 17th and 18th century that came here to rob the Indians of their land. After understanding more of the drought-protective effects of permaculture, I am now in, an admirer and student of it. I just looked at your projects and they are truly impressive!

I have only one project--planting fruit trees and growing my own food. I still keep goats and chickens.

I will continue on my fruitarian 80/10/10 diet as best I can the rest of my life, which now is probably better than the genetic/food choice lifetime of my nearest blood relatives, previously around 72. I am 68 now and plan on living, actively, to 100. Although I have expanded the lifestyle of my peasant parents, I will always remember their courage and wisdom in surviving a get-rich-quick world. Both of them were ethical in their treatment of the land they had, which was 635 acres, and the animals their livelihood depended upon. The land I have is because of their sacrifice. I am leaving most of it to nature except for building rock terraces on downslopes whenever I can. But for now, I am concentrating on the high-fenced area to determine the depth of the topsoil before it gets to solid bedrock. I may not be able to plant as many fruit trees as I wish. The only option would be to put an orchard in the bottom with a thick depth of mineral-rich topsoil. I do have the piping for irrigation there as well. The limiting factor though is ground water and how much will be available in the seemingly endless drought. My family survived the 1950s drought of central Texas, but just barely. I might have to return to meat, eggs, and goat's milk, but I have more energy and health without meat and hope that I don't have to.

I guarantee if one has a choice between hydraulic fractured water and rain water from a Corning roof with filters and UV light, the best choice is the rain water! There is no filter known to humankind that will take out all of the possible 2,000 toxic chemicals in that brew of greed.

I live in an area where there are mostly hunting properties with no one but me living full time. Since my house was 3 bedroom 2 bath, the county decided I needed an aerobic septic system. After 5 yeas, the pump went out on that system. I decided I would not use it. I cut the drain to drain down a slope. I put in a large stock pot covered with a toilet seat. I poop into that. I am a fruitarian and the poop smells delicious, very fruity! I empty it once a day burying it in a forest of trees.

I use the standard toilet to urinate in and it empties out on the cut sewer pipe on the slope.

I hope I can get away with this system. There is supposed to be a system check with a form filled in every 3 months. I did the first one, but never did another one and I have never heard from the agency that is supposed to monitor this.

Indeed, Greta, in the book "The China Study," the author mentioned a scientific study that proved excessive protein caused cancer!

I have noticed that when I maintain my fruitarian eating I have no morning nose blowing. When I eat the catfish from a restaurant, I spend the next morning clearing my nose of phlegm, which means my body considered it a foreign material.

I noticed this year my dog eating sunflower leaves! Of course, it is well known that dogs eat grass from time to time. I noticed my cat eating grass too! However, I believe dogs and cats are predators as they have eyes frontally whereas animals preyed upon have eyes on the sides of their heads. Nature balances itself with the food chain, some there to eat plants, then eaten by carnivores in a permanent cycle of sustainability. The poop and eventually the carcasses of the carnivores providing nourishment for the plants. Regretfully we have the eyes of a predator, but the gut system of a fruitarian/vegetarian. Probably we evolved the meat eating facial features during the Ice Age, but the Ice Age did not last long enough to change our digestion.

I went fishing once in my lifetime, but hated that you had to kill the struggling miserable fish once you had landed it. So I should give up my catfish too! Last time I went out for a trip to town, I didn't eat anything but bananas that I bought! So perhaps I am getting to my permanent health as I know the meals bought out don't do me much good. I have found that a chain available here, i.e., Jason's Deli has a vegetarian soup and lots of organic stuff in their salad bar, but that is very far away and I don't make that trip often.

I hope you find like-minded people for your intended community very soon. I struggle on here alone in a land where people are clueless on permaculture. However, the surrounding properties are hunting ranches so I think I am protected from a lot of pesticide and herbicide runoff and the air is as good as you can find. However, on weekends, it does get less clear as people with the wrong consciousness race around trying to find peace in the country.

I don't lease for hunting and I have water available for my goats and the wild birds and other wildlife does take advantage of that. I try to grow things for the bees to have nectar.

Since the neighbors are all hunters, the keep deer feeders going year round, so the raccoons and other small mammals are well fed by them. The bobcats and coyotes keep themselves well fed on those artificially fattened deer.

I forgot to mention that bobcats are numerous here and that before I got my cat, the rattlesnakes were everywhere with my dog warning me of them almost daily. I had snakes I never knew about including a black snake and a pure white snake, which I later learned ate the rattlesnakes. Now I haven't seen a rattlesnake for a year as there are no longer any snakes around. I have built lots of rock terraces for the garter snakes and the striped lizards. I have never seen my cat interested in the reptiles, but, sigh, my border collie thinks she is supposed to protect me from reptiles, which I am glad to have her think that when a rattlesnake is in the yard, but not when she is trying to get to the garter snake that lives in the garden or the stripped lizards everywhere.

When I started my first garden after moving here, by next morning, the plants were all gone! The cotton tail bunny population was huge and the drought had been going on for several years.

Additionally, the mice were building nests on the air intake to my car's motor and the mechanics said that the material pulled into the motor would damage the motor.

Every morning I had to wipe down the kitchen counters littered with mice droppings.

I got a Siamese cat. Now the cotton tail bunny population has returned to the wild and stay out of my garden. I have not found a single mouse dropping since she came of age. There aren't any birds that really do much in the trees or ground. I have a huge population of barn swallows that return each spring and successfully double or triple the population returning to South America. If one of their babies falls out before I find it and return it to the nest, I am sure my cat eats it, because any time she walks around outside the flock of barn swallows dive bomb her until she runs for cover!

So cats are a necessity and don't damage the bird population in some areas!

I live very far out in the country and this year my dog alerted to a cat. I have one cat and she was curious, but hissed at it. The abandoned cat wouldn't let the dog near him/her or me. I put food out for her where my dog couldn't get to it and the cat hung around. I thought it had moved on, but it turned it it was still here and it rubbed against me so I knew it had been a house cat. It made me want to cry because it was so thin--just bones with dull fur and several scabby places on it. It is starting to get a shine to its fur, but it is still horribly thin. I have not tried to determine its sex, because it is still a little frightened. I just pet it. I have fed it what it wanted. For a while, it wanted the dog food I ladle out for the dogs, but now it seems to want the dry cat kibble and the canned cat food. I offer it as much as it can eat. I did find some worm medicine I had to put in its food as well as powdered diatomaceous earth. As soon as I can, I will take it to the vet for further testing to why it doesn't seem to gain any weight. I am not worried about impregnation because my female cat is fixed.

At first, it would stay in the barn storage room. But now when I leave that door open, it comes out and suns itself. My cat still growls at it, but it does not return the growl and I figure they will eventually make friends, but I want to get the new cat to the vet before that happens due to the condition of the fur and skin to make sure the abnormalities are not contagious. I guess the vet can give rabies and other feline injections without knowing its history.

Does anybody have any suggestions?

When I thought my ground water was going, I contacted a professional installer for rain water. Turned out the problem with my ground water was because the property owner on the opposite hill to mine had hydraulic fracturing done. They started building the rain water system and I had the ground water tested to the tune of $500 the most I could afford. Since the industry uses up to 2,000 possible things in the process and they don't have to give anyone the formula used under the "proprietary" shield, you would have to test for 2,000 things. My ground water was extremely toxic with calcium so high it was even toxic much less the strontium and lead, etc., etc. I drank that water for a year. I had to take a thyroid replacement for a year because of the endocrine effects from it and my goats went into unnatural heat--i.e., right after birthing in the spring. The offspring were born blind with no irises or still born.

At any rate, my roof is the modern shingle roof, but my installer put in a 3-cartridge filter system and a UV light. I have guinea fowl that occasional fly onto the roof! I have been drinking that water and I always put 3 or 4 quarts freshly drawn on my counter. It is always clear and delicious.

In the event of electrical grid collapse that would stop flow because of the circulation and pressure pump not available, the installer put a hose connector on the low pipe going from the rain harvest tank of 2,500 gallons and the rest of the way to the house. That water wouldn't be filtered or UVed, but it is there for emergencies and I am glad to have it. Not all of my roof is collecting the water and I can put more gutters to collect more, but right now, even with three 2,500-gallon tanks there is always overflow into my goldfish pond ( a very large galvanized steel stock tank) where my border collie swims for cooling down in the summer. There is no overflow stand pipe. In Texas, there are rarely large rains, mostly small rains and these rains are all collected as well as condensation. I use my water very carefully even still and my 3 tanks are always full. I have one turned off to flow to the house and I use the other 2. I probably should turn off the 2nd one, as I am only drawing from the third.

I have a 50-gallon trash can collecting on the V of the opposite side of the house which is not currently collecting rain water for harvesting and I do get mosquitoes there. I have to put that in covered containers for use to water fruit trees.

My installer said I could put in many more 2,500 gallon tanks on the current system. I would like to do this but I probably won't get it done any year soon as I have so many needs. But I am very glad I put in that rain-harvest system. Pure rain water in the house system is heavenly. No calcium buildup in any heated water.

I have long wondered what extreme animal rights people do with their pets? Dogs and cats are biologically adapted to meat eating given their digestion and anatomy. I do know of a person who claimed she fed her dog only vegies and the animal appeared healthy! I recently had a near-starving cat dropped on me. I began to try to feed it back to life. I put her in the barn store room where I could keep her from being attacked by my cat or the dogs. That is where I keep the dog and cat food. When I was ladling out dog food with plenty of cat food in her bowl she seemed to eat the dog food in preference for the cat food. Obviously there was something in the dog food more attractive to her than the cat food. Now she or he seems satisfied with primarily cat food but still does feed on the dog food when I ladle it out and before I take it away from her to put out to the dogs. The cat was near dead with little energy and her fur dull and damaged in spots. I will be taking her to the vet to check for mange because she has a few mange-looking spots. She also has worms and I found a bottle of worm medicine left unused for my own animals. I also put some diatomaceous earth in her cat food. Now she is getting a shine to her and she has enough energy to explore outside, but she is still so traumatized that most of the time she rests in a darken corner of a box surrounded by bags of feed filled with empty dog food cans! At first I was unable to even touch her, but now she begs for petting. Afraid to transfer what is possibly mange to my other animals that I pet, I put on gloves or wash my hands thoroughly if I pet her. She or he is still only skin and bones though! It is painful to me to pet her.

I am still enjoying my 80/10/10 fruitarianism. It is my belief that if the main portion of the world's population became fruitarian then pastureland would be converted to orchards. Trees capture a lot of CO2 and give back what is now diminishing--oxygen. Our survival may depend on us becoming fruitarian or we face (and the rest of the earth) extinction. I live in naturally tree covered land, but the need for meat has caused almost a clear cutting of these forests in order to graze cattle. We just can't afford that kind of elimination of any forested areas. In a biology course I took, the professor said that the more surface area of a leaf the more capable of CO2 extraction. What has more surface than Ashe Juniper I ask? I also know that Ashe juniper holds water in the soil because underneath the drip line of an Ashe Juniper was damp soil in a drought as compared to other areas, which were hard as concrete. It is either reforestation or the questionable technological techniques, profit-based, which may well be the sudden end of humankind. I am spending my final years here planting fruit trees and I love the work. Wish I could have spent my lifetime doing that.

Steven Smallwood wrote:Creating this post to see if there are any people out there who eat only raw vegan food, like the 80/10/10 diet, or another variation. Green smoothies, sprouts, nuts seeds, lots of fruit, big salads, etc. I am interested to know where you live, what kind of crops you grow, how you do in the winter, if you use greenhouses-- basically anything! I am not developing my property yet, but I will be beginning summer of 2012. Seems a slim chance, but please respond if you are raw!

Steven

I am a raw 80/10/10 since 10/28/2011. I was barely ambulatory with osteoarthritis in hips, knees, and ankles with a prediabetic condition and "iffy" blood cholesterol for at least 20-30 years. I was also 205 pounds with the highest point at 235 on a 5'1" height. I started solely on fruit/veg freshly juiced until the beginning of 2012 when I read lots of books and set myself solely on the 80/10/10 diet that Dr. Graham writes about. I also quit all wheat, even whole wheat, after reading the book, "Wheat Belly" where more than indigestion is discussed including wheat's ability to cross the blood brain barrier and dock at the same places that hard drugs prefer to get us high. Wheat also has a higher glycemic level than white sugar. In about January or February I switched to fruitarian with vegetables. I live in Central Texas bordering the desert. I am able to grow greens year round as well as other vegetables in the non-freezing growing times. One year the weather was frozen for 24 hours for 7 days. I had lots of winter plants like kale and swiss chard. It looked like they were all dead. However, I pulled off the dead leaves and found a green core and the plants resumed their growth. As an experiment, I left one of them covered with the dead leaves--it never regenerated. So I learned to always check the core of a plant before deciding it was dead. Apparently sunlight is the main survival factor.

At any rate, I am now 128 pounds, just 8 pounds short of my goal. I buy a case of bananas and that lasts me about 9 days. I also have laid in a supply of peeled frozen bananas in case of need. I use the frozen bananas in smoothies, usually for breakfast with greens from my garden. This year late summer had just about everything dead except for the weeds. The garden plants were stressed by the heat in the 100+ deg F. The weeds didn't seem to notice so I made my banana-based smoothies with pigweed (an amaranth), lamb's quarters, or purslane. I also used dill because it thinks it is a weed! There were strange new insects this year including Mexican General grasshoppers and a silver-type beetle that wiped out the swiss chard unless I spent several hours a day squashing them. They got almost all of my swiss chard, which normally grows year-round, even in the heat, with no problems. We definitely are in a changing environment with the heat.

Now I have normal blood sugars and I am no longer prediabetic and my blood chemistries are completely normal. I eat only raw fruit/vegies except for one meal a day of cooked beans. I just love beans and due to my old age, 68, I figure I can allow myself a little leeway to desire. Beans have good nutrition as well, even cooked. I also tell myself I can't afford the needed calories from fruit until I produce more of my own.

I no longer have any osteoarthritis and from barely walking I stride! I work all day on my huge growing area with hand tools. I will be building lots of hugelkultur on top of solid bedrock. I found that most of this growing area I have is highly mineralized, heavy clay soil, seemingly 25% soil and 75% rock. The soil holds water very well. I thought it was the clay content, but I am beginning to believe it is the solid bedrock that is holding the soil moisture. The bedrock is mostly covered with at least 2 to 4 inches and very deep in other places, as much as 4 feet deep.

This year with a nice rainfall at the right time and watering the tree with all my dishwater I had a huge crop of figs. So I intend to plant lots of fig trees for the calories that this way of eating needs. It has taken that fig tree 5 years to get this productive with being set back a few times to nothing from freezing. It always recovers. I am interested to see this year if it will freeze back to nothing or have evolved enough to adjust to this climate zone. Perhaps it is the USDA's plant hardiness zone changed to 8A. It is growing out of my reaching height--it is at least 10 feet tall now. I don't know whether to cut off the top or leave that for the birds. All suggestions are appreciated.

I am so glad to find other vegans here. I don't have much in common with traditional in that only 10% of my daily calories comes from fat. I am sticking to that because I do believe fat is the enemy--any kind of fat, especially extracted oils or fats, whether animal, fruit, grain, or vegetable. I don't really miss the fat--I miss the salt the most as salting is not recommended and I know the ratio between potassium and sodium is important. I cannot understand where sodium comes from in this mindset. I cheat with the beans even more by adding salt! Any information on the potassium/sodium ratio in diet would also be appreciated.

What convinced me about the fat is the fact that medical science all agrees that fat starts coating the circulatory vessels eventually plugging it up completely and causing heart attacks or strokes. Dr. Graham points out that insulin is the helper to get the body's energy source, blood sugar, into the cell. With the vessel coated with fat, the insulin can't get through. The cell screams for nutrition, the brain thinks well it needs more insulin, and eventually the insulin-producing gland collapses. Hence we think insulin is the problem. The problem is the fat-lined arterial system. The cure is eliminating the fat in the arterial system, not only to prevent heart attacks or strokes but to prevent diabetes. It worked for me. I have so much energy now and I think more clearly and rapidly.

The fun part is when I go to the grocery store. The only aisles I frequent are the produce aisles and the dried bean aisles.