All Asian greens, from pak choi to Taiwanese sword lettuce...  Kitazawa seed company is a good source.

Subscribed, hoping to get my copy signed by both of you

Howdy all,
As a chef, I work a lot with Northern California Ranchers doing holistic grazing and other regenerative land practices when I buy my meat. My friend, Guido Frossinni, of True Grass Farms, is one of them, he runs a very impressive operation. Jeremy Watts, permaculture designer, and Guido are putting on a workshop on Silvopasture: the practice of combining forestry and livestock grazing in a mutually beneficial way, on The 12th & 13th of December

And you can camp onsight, and my favorite part, great meals, organic veggies and grass fed beef, will make this experience exceptional.


Here's a link to sign up and more info below,

http://truegrassfarms.com/workshops/



IN THIS WORKSHOP:

We will learn the history and ecological context of the site and the importance of observation. We will explore how to transition basic pastureland into a drought-tolerant, multi-storied silvopasture. We will site and plant 120+ cork oak (Quercus suber) trees, plan for multiple species of livestock grazing as well as complementary plantings, and we will be using aspects of the Keyline design system for soil-building and water retention.

This will be an example of permanent agriculture, producing long-term yields of soil carbon, tree crops, and diversified animal proteins. Participants will learn how to survey a landscape using a laser level and make topographic maps of project sites for optimized water use and erosion control. Other topics will include fostering ecological succession, protecting saplings from livestock, grazing strategies, and selecting adapted species.

Onsite camping is included in the ticket price, as are three meals (two lunches and a breakfast) featuring True Grass Farm’s own pasture-raised meats and various local ingredients.

Dec. 12th from 10 am to 4 pm and Dec. 13th from 8 am to 4 pm

I have heard him say several variations of exactly those words on a few occasions, so while I can't give a book reference, that is totally Sepp. I think Zach Wiess, Javan Bernakavitch, or Andrea Holker, or many of his students could easily corroborate.

Seth Peterson

SO MUCH BETTER!

I haven't read all the comments, but I know some people are not pleased. For some of those of us who understand that aesthetics is important to visual communication we thank you and bless you for making something that you can look at and easily decipher and understand clearly and easily. Thank you.

Screen efficiency is not only percent of screen filled with text info. Thought am sure that for hardcore coders this is enough.

Let the debate continue.

Seth

Hey all,

This thread is getting good! Azura, Aimee and Q make some great points that have been on my mind.

I went to Hawaii for the first time two years ago with my fiancée, she was on work and I was in search of permacukture people and projects to visit and learn from. (Nowadays, every trip I take seems to have some permaculture motive tied in). So, we went to Oahu, and I visited some farms, some permaculture projects, snorkel led and explored.

One day I made it to Waimea valley, to visit, since they have a sort of open air museumm of traditional Hawaiian living. When I got there, I met a guide who instantly intrigued me and we sat down and talked for a good hour till she told me that was plenty and I should go and explore my new found knowledge in the valley. That hour changed my life, she opened me up to the ancient systems of the Hawaiians for agriculture and living. This was the deepest permaculture I had ever come across. I spent the next two weeks, visiting permaculture places, but also looking to find that deeper connection to Hawaii, there was SO MUCH to learn, the fishponds, the taro fields, the aina (sp?). Since then I have visited Hawaii three times, always going deeper. Visiting the Ritte family, in Moloka'i, touring the Big Island. You see my fiancee is a lawyer, her main gig is suing Monsanto in Hawaii, so you can imagine a) locals love her b) she has to go to Hawaii a lot. And it has changed her too. The aloha spirit has begun to infiltrate her thinking an her being as we connect to this ancient wise culture. I find her repeating Hawaiian sayings in her legal briefs and we have been following situation at Mauna Kea closely, with Hawaiians trying to protect their sacred mountaintop land from further development (and, we permies know the ecological value of a mountaintop). Walter Ritte's speeches have been amazing, we watch them weekly, some bringing us to tears. He is the Martin Luther King of modern Hawaiian rights.

And then something else happened. The tone in Hawaii started to change. Home rule and self determination have become not just strong buzzwords, but the basis for a whole new understanding of Hawaii's relationship to the mainland. The aren't protesting US involvement, they are protecting their land, which is their sacred and legal right. (We illegally annexed Hawaii for american companies, so technically we have no right to the islands under international law (sound familiar). But they aren't just protecting Hawaii from from the U.S. government, they are also fighting vigorously against Monsanto, harder than we are on the mainland, because Hawaii is ground zero for Monsanto's experimental GMO/pesticide plantings. And this month the were fighting to stop the TPP.

So these people, whose land the U.S. govt stole, whose people we subject to the will of our companies from Dole to Oracle, these people whose plight we ignore, as we visit Waikiki and leave a mess. These people are fighting not only their own battles, but taking on the world's battles, and fighting on the very front lines to protect the rest of us from Monsanto and govt abuse.

That is the Hawaii I have come to know, and it is still only one little piece.

The connections I have made there are some of the strongest I have ever made. They have so many answers to the world's problems. There is so much more that Hawaii can give the world compared to what the world can give Hawaii, which really isn't that much. Leaving them alone to be a free people would suffice.

So I see any trip to Hawaii as a partnership with the Hawaiian people. And as I said, the tone has changed, before they would have been more focused on outside experts to bring foreign knowledge, nowadays there if a feeling surging that local knowledge is better, and that local control of of the lands and politics is better. So, I don't go to Hawaii to teach, but rather to share. To cross pollinate, build our worldwide community, learn from them and let myself really soak up Island culture in the peole, the small towns, the still moments, the conversations by the side of the road...

Purposes of this trip:
1) share knowledge, cross pollinate with Islanders and permies.
2) bring new ideas to the islands and take new ideas home, as well as some of the aloha spirit.
3) learn about ancient Hawaiian agriculture
4) have some time to slow down and relax, to engage the places and people and rest up a bit.
5) Eat Hawaiian pineapple and contemplate how to make a cooperatively owned regenerative polyculture pineapple farm that will put Dole out of business.

So, yeah, your posts were really on point.

At this stage we are trying to get an idea of what's doable, and budget, to see if this thing has wings (I think it does). And the final format is still up in the air. I want to secure funding to get Paul, Willie, Geoff, Nadia?, Jocelyn, Cassie and myself out there. We will all work hard except for Joc, who totally deserves this time off!! For putting up with all our craziness, while holding so much together at base camp! And if I know Jocelyn, she will still put in work, even if we say to just relax.

Some possibilities include:
A day of workshops and talks at a permaculture center for in depth stuff, higher price
A day of intro to permaculture for a large amount of people at a cheaper price
A lecture in a big hotel for people with high heels and suits (professors, business people, politicians, activists.) at a high price
A PDC given by a combination of mainland teachers and local teachers.
Redesign a fishpond, there is one on Lana'i that needs work, and since geoff did this last time, and it worked out so well, it is a very good option.
A three or four day event with some mainlanders and some locals presenting, kind of a convergence if you will.
There could be a tour of the islands for mainlanders that goes to Hawaiian spots and learns the history of Hawaiian ancient agriculture from locals.

I would want to see some kind of aina discount for at least one of the events to bring in lots of people, reach lots of people.

How many islands? For one week two is plenty, for two weeks three is great IMHO. Big island has lots going on, so does Oahu. I would disagree that most of the farming takes place on Oahu (I include cattle ranching and other activities), but there is plenty on both islands.

If this interests you, speak up.

If you have good Hawaiian contacts, speak up.

If you can bring out a group of people for an incredible experience, speak up.

If you have anything to add, please do!



I jump at the sun, cause I never get burned,


Seth Peterson

www.APermacultureChef.com

Hey all,

So, I am finishing up one glorious month at base camp as kitchen commander. I arranged with Jocelyn to come out here for the whole month of February as a follow up to when I came out here last September. In fact I had to squeeze the month in between some permaculture work and site visits in Hawaii last January and Permaculture voices in March, and I am so glad I did.

Why am I glad? Because it allowed me to really test out the Kitchen Commander position and see what is possible. When I first visited and observed the system in place, I estimated that a good cook could do the job of cooking for the crew and overseeing cleanup as well as improve kitchen systems and do awesome kitchen projects, and I originally, I broke it down something like this...

PER DAY
3-4 hrs. Actually cooking
1 hr. Cleaning and overseeing community members clean up
1/2 - 1 hr. Doing systems improvement like making an inventory spreadsheet, or putting up nice wooden signs to guide people on kitchen use
1/2 - 1 Doing awesome experimental kitchen projects like flavored salts, canning, pickling, etc.

I figured that would make for a six hour day, six days a week, so a 36 hr. Work week which seems plenty fair for a salaried position. And at the same time would allow the kitchen commander to get involved in other awesome Homesteadding activities from making seedballs to fencing, to planting, to hugelkulture, etc.

I compared this position and salary to a restaurant cooking job, which in the super expensive Bay Area pays about $10-15 an hour, for 5 eight hour days a week. In this job you work as hard and as fast as you can for eight often sweaty and grueling hours a day and still have to pay your own rent, some of your own food, commuting expenses if you have them, etc. It's a job for illegal immigrants and passionate obsessed chefs in the making, and it puts you below the poverty line. So, I calculated that you would come out way ahead at wheaton labs, especially sice there is little to spend money on. I figured you would have an easier job AND come out with some savings, probably even be above the poverty line.

So, this month I got to test out my theories, and I will post to this thread over the next month to show people what I did, what I discovered, what we ate (yes I have photos) and how I improved my efficiency over the month.

But, let me give a quick summary, and that is...

After two weeks 'practice' on the kitchen equipment and paleo cooking, and the ingredients at hand, and people's food preferences, I got down to 3hours a day of actual cooking time, and some days less. And about an hour clean up with community members help was very doable. And I didn't have a grueling work pace like in a restaurant, in fact I had a relaxed work pace.

Breakfast 30 mins. Usually eggs of some type, sausage of some type and greens or sweet potatoes, etc.
Lunch. 1 hr varied, I will post menus and photos
Dinner. 1 hr varied, I will post menus and photos

And I still had to time to play with the hay box cooker, butcher and brine a whole pig, make seedballs, innoculate straw with fungi, design and make fences, attend food production systems meetings, play cards against humanity, walk the land, gossip with Jocelyn et al. About the day's events, go shooting, visit a local spa a couple of times, get trapped up on a mountain in the snow for half a day, attend an Eco summit in missoula, as well as a film festival, Skype with my Fiancée (yea I said it, Fiancee), etc. AND I had time to do my work back home long distance, setting up several culinary and permaculture workshop for March, April and beyond as well as a whole host of other activities. (Thank god I have hugelbeds, and don't need to attend to my garden regularly).

Did I do a perfect job? No. I started off needing more hours, and cleaning less than I should, after two weeks I started hitting my stride, and in my last week I managed to cook off enough food to feed the core winter group here for the next week or so. And I could still improve greatly, that's what life is about.

Disclaimer: there were only 8-10 people here this month, that number will go up in the summer. But three considerations come into play here 1) more people means more chopping but the same cooking processes. Cooking 1 fish is the same as cooking 5 fish. 2) when there are more people here, like 20 or more, maybe, then the kitchen Commander would have more hands to help in the kitchen, so this system scales up easily. 3) this job, community structure and lifestyle ain't for everyone, BUT for the right person.... Who has probably listened to all or most of the podcasts, then maybe, just maybe...

Let me say that, I loved Caitlin's post about her experience here last summer, she hit a lot of nails right on the head, and as the next month rolls around I will post many more thoughts and photos to help develop this space. So, please post your thoughts, questions, considerations, etc. And if you like this sorta thing, well then, come on out to the......

So, who will take up the gauntlet, who will become the next, and hopefully permanent Kitchen Commander? Whoever does can count on my support.

Later, today I fly back to the west coast, to continue living the dream, but I look forward to being back here in June for the Eco living summit that Zach Weiss is putting on in Montana (check it out on the forums this week), and seeing a whole bunch of people, living, laughing, crying and overcoming in community.

Lastly, if you have a permaculture based homestead and want to talk about the kitchen possibilities you can either post here for all the permie world to see and learn or PM me as well.



Jump at the sun y'all,

Seth Peterson,

a permaculture chef

Hey Jesse-
My two cents...

I have begun to incorporate succulent (non thorny) as ground cover. They do a fantastic job... And it's an idea that I later found out geoff lawton uses in dry/desert climates.

My reasoning is...

1) easy to propagate from cuttings literally strewn on the ground
2) cheap since they grow from any cuttings I often collect from my own collection or neighbors, etc on a regular basis and have grown my collection to an outstanding number in the last three years.
3) work well, truly cover and protect.
4) and when you ride over them they will break up and produce more cuttings just like when the get trampled or eaten in natural settings.
5) great colors
6) climate appropriate
7) down the line you could use the succulents as propagation material for future projects or even sell the succulents to pay for BMX equipment.

Then you can come in with your nitro fixing trees and Mediterranean fruit bushes and trees to fill out the layers in your food forest.



Seth Peterson

a permaculture chef

P.S. Did you say Humboldt State? that's my alma mater.

Elle, In my limited experience clay soil is what you want for pond sealing. I've seen them done by digging a hole and running pigs in the hole, and I've seen them done by running the excavator in the hole to compact the clay. I'm, of course, referring to the work of Sepp Holzer, so if you don't know, definitely check him out and read up on his pond building techniques.


Hey Michael, yes sepp used dead stakes with live plants. The dead stake to create and keep the hole, as well as, allow moisture into the hole, and to decompose and feed the soil life. In that same hole he planted what I believe was grapes in one case and willow in another. I totally see your point of the willows going through your thin sealing layer vs. Causing soil life and exudate so that would seal it, and am curious, might be worth a try in your test pond since the info is invaluable in your situation. I could also see planting some shallow rooted plants that would fend off ducks, like the bamboo you mentioned. Are cat tails shallow rooted? I'll try and get some photos up next month of what I saw. Too busy this month.

Keep them updates coming, you rock!

And even if you do,

Seth Peterson

a permaculture chef

I'm out here at wheaton labs cooking for the month, so I will be fitting in some preservation projects as well...

First up, a ginger bug!

I put ginger, water and honey in a mason jar which I left loosely closed for air exchange. This captures the natural wild ginger bug which starts the fermentation. I added honey daily in small doses for four days till the liquid got frothy with fermentation. Sam and I tasted it and decided is was too weak, so added ginger and water and more honey. Tastes it again and thought it was better but could be stronger, so we'll add more ginger when we get some on Sunday.

I also took some of the ginger bug juices and added it to flour and water to make a pool (sourdough starter) to get the fermentation going on that.

Hey simon,

We are not burying posts. The posts are held in place by the waddle fence, which then 'attaches' to the rock jacks to hold everything in place. It's actually a bit tricky to get started, but as you weave in more waddle it becomes more sturdy. But, at first, the poles are just sitting on the ground, one person holds them in place while the other person puts the weaved branches in. Does that make sense?

Seth
Permie chef

Rock jacks rock!

Sam has been teaching me to make the jacks and the waddle fence, which has been awesome, thanks Samicus! Here are some photos of the first section which just got started.

Hey penny,
You posted to my seedballs topic, so I thought I'd post to your topic here.

I work with Radical Mycology following the work of paul Stamets and others and so I totally second the other posters who mention fungi. You can also look at the work by tradd cotter and john Todd ecological (phenomenal) to get a good idea of what bioremediation is about, and what it can do.

Another thought is those weeds that are growing in that area. I mean they are there for a reason, they are there to do the work that the soil needs, that is why they are there. That is why God, or Mother Nature, or whoever, put them there. God/nature is a perfect system, that's why, in permaculture we have faith in what we observe the natural system is doing. What kind of weeds are they? Weeds are amazing, the same weeds that remediated my damaged urban soil, are also medicinals that help protect my body from the toxins and the cancer, etc. that is ever more prevalent.



She who can harness the power of the weeds, in her garden, is truly unstoppable,


Seth Peterson

permaculture chef

Penny - yea, we were in the same boat as you, we had read about it, seen videos, even recommended it, so with spring coming, we figured it was time to do it. And it was super simple, now the question, as you said is, will it work? And even if it works here, will it work for you? Andy one way to answer that question. And we will do more speedballs in the next few days as base camp ramps up its food production systems in order to cut food costs, eat better food, and reduce travel time when we have to go into town and shop, or have food delivered. I will also be taking some seed balls back to California to try in my own fruit tree guilds and observe what happens, so we will be sure to post. It took us twenty minutes, and below there is a link to the video we followed, so, well, I am kind of suggesting that it is so easy and fast that you could also try it out and that we both report back on our experiences/experiments. But, I assume you also have a million other awesome things to do, so no pressure, we will post our results. has anyone else used this technique who has so feedback on there experience?

Miles - we did what we have seen the most. We used 1/3 buffalo compost, 1\3 seeds, and 1/3 powdered clay we go dig up. Put all three together in a shallow Tupperware, added some water, shook it back and forth and the seedballs formed automatically. We added a little dryp owdrered clay, to get the right consistency/mix and seperated seedballs, then we dried them on the rocket mass heater, hurray!

Here's the link of the you tube video we followed to give you a better idea:

These seedballs were the first 'round', so we will continue to make more seedballs, with other varieties, this month while I am here and in preparation for spring planting. We also plan on planting a few now to test their germination rates. Lastly, we will try to get a video we recorded of us making them up to this thread.

It may fail the first time, but Javan Bernakavitch of BC permacukture, once gave me permission to fail, in fact he recommended failing better. after all failure is often the stage right before before success.


Jump at the sun,

Seth Peterson
Permaculture Chef

Hey All,
Thought I'd let people see some of what I have been up to out here in Montana.

The photos below are about making seed balls. For those of you who don't know, basically, seed balls means that you take one third clay one third manure and one third seeds and combine those together and roll them into little balls. Then you dry them out and you can plant them. The advantage is that it's like a little seed packet with nutrients in the manure and clay and when it rains the clay gets moist and holds the moisture long enough for the seed to sprout. So you don't have to water them, you could just put them out where you want to plant and wait for the rain to come. This is a technique that was first popularized by Masanobu Fukuoka.

In the photos you'll see…
1) on the right are the finished and dried seed balls Sam and I made last night. They contain cold weather greens like spinach and chard, mixed wildflowers from echinacea to calendula, And herbs like forage parsley. So the seed balls are designed to bring in pollinators as well as provide some fast growing greens to eat after the snows thaw when the Spring begins. On the left is some clay that is drying out to use for our next seed ball making adventure. These are drying out on a marble table that is the mass for a rocket mass heater, which I'll explain below.
2) A large rocket mass heater which is installed in the main house at base camp. I run it most mornings for about 45 minutes which heats a large table mass connected to it. The mass stays warm enough throughout the day to keep the house warm until the next morning. But due to its great efficiency I don't have to tend the fire all day, nor do I have to use a ton of wood. I put the photo here, Because the seed balls are drying on top of the mass from the heater. What you see in the photo is a large metal drum where the rocket mass heater combustion occurs and below that the batch box where you put the wood.

Seth Peterson

Permaculture chef

Most of the great suggestions that I would make we're already mentioned. I do also love this sight! Permies rock! But let me comment and add one additional resource.

I saw the SOILS toilets in Haiti when I visited last November to teach permaculture to 5th and 6th graders with a program called Mindful Generations, run by Cathy Rose. Simple, effective, awesome and when people moved the latrines, they plant a tree on the old spot. I saw them in the poorest of the poor outlying farming communities used by families that had almost no resources and no running water. Very nice work.

I also saw tippy taps in action, great stuff, we taught the children to build them, from 'garbage waist' at the Kobonal mission near Hinche.

When I spoke with Paul about his humanore systems, which I had the privelage of using he carefully explained to me how he is taking every precaution, including a two year turn around in sealed barrels for solid waist to make darn sure it is safe. He eventually wants to get this process legalized, accepted and or permitted, so he is "REALLY DOING IT RIGHT". And although there is a pee diverter, it is much more diverting to pee on his sawdust compost pile which then heats water for his showers.

So, imagine, your morning routine: going to the bathroom knowing that
1) your humamore will feed the land you live on.
2) peeing on a compost pile that makes hot water.
3) showering in hot water created using your own pee.
4) not using electricity or gas, nor even expensive and toxic gick laden solar as an energy source.
5) not dirtying fresh drinking water in the act of...
6) feeling completely integrated to and even benficial for the local ecology you live in as you go through your morning routine, I will never look at a bathroom the same again. Thanks Paul!

And lastly, last year I saw at presentation on ecological 'waist' management systems that use composting, wetlands, microbials, fungi, etc in elegant and functional ways. John Todd ecological blew my socks off, he really knows his stuff and has been at it for years. He's got many working examples around the planet. http://www.toddecological.com

That we may all go forth and pee with great pride and conviction,

Seth
permie chef

Great, and yes I hinted but did not specify, will do!

Thanks,

Seth
Permie chef and radical mycologist

Hey Adam,

Cows are your thing, a skill you have learned and practice in search of beauty, but there is another inherent skill you have acquired along the way, one that is just as important, book writing and publishing. How about talking a little bit about the process of publishing your book. As we are in the phase of re skilling ourselves (as a society), education has come to the forefront. Getting information collected, tested, organized and disseminated is where a lot of us are spending our time for now. So I would love to know more about hoe you did this process.

Specifically I'd like to know...
how you collected information?
How you got the opportunity to write a book?
How you published?
What were your biggest lessons?
How long did it take you?
What recommendations do you have for newbie authors?
Did you have to pay out of pocket?
Had you always wanted to write a book? We're you born into it, achieve it, or have it thrust upon you?
Info on hardcopy publishing vs. Digital.
And maybe some great anecdotes...

As we all know, we need Permie writers, Permie publishers, permie photographers, etc. So let's get that information out as well, I am sure there are scores of us who will benefit from it as we move forward in our various projects.


And the cow jumped over the moon,

Seth
Permie chef

Hey all,

3 keys to this conversation that I have learned.

1) as stated get to know your farmer, there is simply no other substitute. You know you are on the right track when you and your farmer eat together. Find out the best local farms that sell to the beat local restaurants, but also to the public through a CSA or meat box. I get my meats from Tara Firma Farms north of the San Francisco Bay Area, so if you live around here... Why even bother trying to figure out what you are looking at in a supermarket. I order online, they deliver, I cook instead of shop, after buying direct. It's so good, as they say in Brazil "if it got any better, it'd be ruined!"

2) 100% grass fed is the 'label' you need to see. In my area Marin Sun Farms practices and advertises this way. So if I need to pick something up at the butcher, guess where I go.

3) it is leaner, beefier, chewier. And this means I have to cook it a little differently. First couple of times surprises me, then I got in the swing of things. Now I will never go back to over-soft, under-tasty beef. Of course, you do have to chew your food, something that is actually better for you, apparently. What if America learned to chew our food again, instead always wanting melt in your mouth and fall off the bone (which are also good, depends on the dish/cut).

So, the problems are finding truly 100% grass fed beef, knowing a couple of trustworthy local sources, joining a CSA or finding a cow share, learning to chew and cook better and caring about the cows and farmers in your food shed.

Luckily, as we permies know, that means the solutions are finding truly 100% grass fed beef, joining a CSAor finding cow shares, knowing a couple of trustworthy local sources, learning to chew and cook better and caring about the cows and farmers in your food shed.

And, the result is I no longer worry about my beef, I got that system in place and can move onto other life hacks / improvements while also knowing that I am not supporting CAFOs.

And the bonus is my CSA lets me come out to visit, have a tour or a picnic, fish in their pond, etc.

And the cow jumped over the moon,

Seth
Permie chef

Adam!

How goes it my friend. We only met once at PV1, but I remember you often. I must say I am VERY impressed you now have a book!! Wow.

Getting cows for me is still a few years off, but at least i will know what book to turn to.

Congrats! And thank you for taking some time to answer questions this week.

I'll be at PV2, to give a mini presentation, so, lucky for me, we can meet again.

Will your talks differ from last year? Just curious, I could totally here you speak on the same topics again! You are a fountain of down to earth information that just makes sense.
Seth
Permie chef

1) These are great points about forum size and topic numbers. Especially as the site grows. It is also the reason that I think the kitchen has grown to enough topics to deserve its own forum, so I'm hopingse of you all do too.

2) I would like to understand how cross posting works, because it seems like an essential function to making things easily findable, is there a place that explains this?

3) Teen forums sounds like a great idea to me, bring them into the fold, I have met more and more teens turning onto permaculture. I think they do deserve their own area for several reasons. They have a very different point of view, that they can share in m area devoted to that view. They are at a stage in life when they are beginning to want their own spaces, away from adults. They have their own language and net etiquette that is innovative and inportant, they deserve a creative space not dominated or run by us. It would empower them greatly at time in their lives when everything is future potential. Can you imagine getting into permaculture and then having a huge community of teens to relate to over this. Give them space to create what they want and they will blow our minds.

But that's just what I think, I dinno, so, I also think we should ask them.

4) should there be an elders forum too? Full of experienced wisdom but based on old fashioned ways.

5) I also, really, really suggest a jobs forum. This sounds like a great way to professionalize. Currently it is hard to connect to jobs in permaculture and few of us actually make our living from it, yet I know there are tons of jobs out there and people who could fill them, if connected. In my not so humble opinion this could be a game changer. this could be in the business / entrepreneurial forum previously mentioned, which I also think is a golden idea. Think about how pea culture voices has professionalized Perma-conferences, now we need technological infrastructure that supports our entrance into the 'real' world that the rest of society lives and works in.


Seth
Permie chef

So glad you asked Cassie!

IMHO the forum on living is kind of a mixed bag with lots of kitchen/cooking topics (like half of the forum) and then other assorted living topics. I'm sure this mixed bag made sense when it was created, but now that half the topics are kitchen related, I feel they deserve their own separate forum, but I didn't know how to ask.

For me it would be...

Permaculture Kitchens. (Main forum heading)
Preservation
Fermentation
Weston A. Price
Paleo
Vegan
Vegetarian
Food as medicine
Medicinal herbs
Foodsheds
Food storage
Cooking
Seasonal menus
Food choices
Local food
Regenerative kitchen design
Kitchen equipment and tools
Nutrition
Farm to table
Cooking in community




Or maybe, more simply...

Permaculture kitchens
Preservation (canning, drying, root cellaring, fermenting, etc)
Eating styles and diet (Paleo, weston a price, paleo, vegan, vegetarian)
Food as medicine (TCM, medicinal herbs)
Food sheds (Elements, food distribution chains)
Cooking (Techniques, methods, styles)
Menus (Regional specialties, seasonal menus and recipes)
Nutrition
Farm to table connections
Cooking in community
Local food
Classes and workshops

Hope this makes sense to people / seems like a good idea.


Let's reintegrate the kitchen and the garden into one holistic system,

Seth Peterson

Permie chef

PreservAtion is literally my favorite food topic!!! I mean if I had a restaurant, it would consist of a bunch of home preserved items on the shelf that I would serve. Prosciutto, canned veg, dried mushrooms or garlic and onions, canned sauces, fermented everything, confit duck in the cellar, etc.

One should know all 11+ forms of preservation and when and how to apply them, as well as the science of why they work. Preservation in salt, sugar, oil, vinegar and combinations thereof. Drying, smoking, fermentation, freezing, cellaring, etc. are a great beginning. So some Basic thoughts...

I want to delve deep into the kitchen garden connection. The same Lactobacillus that makes my compost great, makes My cheese great and makes my stomach function better. How interesting. Humankind preserved food to Both increase flavor and nutrition.
They truly ate better!!

I ferment my falafel dough. Think falafel withy the flavor depth of sourdough bread!! It is a traditional, before refrigerators method that is more delicious and more nutritious.

I mean look at Weston a. Price. Traditional societies were made healthy through their food preservation practices including preservation. We have lost that!

Raw milk never spoils.

My fermented falafel dough lasts months in the fridge and only gets better in taste and health.

Cheese is how we preserve milk and that milk must be raw, because raw milk never spoils!

When I lived in Brazil They salt preserved beef. It was the best, most flavorful, bee fest, tenderest beef I have ever tasted.

Those are my initial, 'off the wall' thoughts...

Recently I have been reading bill
Mollison's fermentation book, way ahead of its time. I E will all Catch up!

My mentor, Jessica prentice, taught me "the destiny of cabbage is to become sauerkraut, it is we that stop
It."

More To come,
Seth Peterson
Permie chef

And any mistakes that are made..

Are a gift to the group.

Not everyone is able to learn from other people's mistakes, but we, the Permies are able to do so. It is a superpower of great magnitude and importance.

Post photos.

In fact, anyone attempting peps at this early beta stage should post lots of photos to discuss the process, results and hammer out the inherent and unhelpful challenges.

Like there should be whole teams of us, taking on pep challenges and posting our progress. Little communities of pep beta testers, just sayin...

Seth Peterson
Permie chef

Here Sepp is showing us how he builds his ponds at his place at the holzerhoff in Austria.

In Malibu, we located, dug out and cased a large spring. this will provide water and value to the property for decades.

unless of course nestle corp finishes emptying all of the aquifers into small plastic bottles first!!

just to get into the mood here are some photos from past workshops with Sepp holzer.

Note: Whoops, sorry guys I wrote La Honda for the caption for the location of the first photo and it was actually Loma Mar and it's not letting me edit the caption.

While at the kramterhoff two years ago, Sepp's son, showe
d us a raised bed hugel culture combo system. So instead of 6 inch or one foot boards for a raised bed, these were four feet high, wooden, raised beds. He then filled them with logs and soil to make hugelkultures. Ther were som many advantages: you didn't have to bend over to pick or weed, no dogs could jump on the beds and dig them up, and it's a hugelkultur!

Or, instead of American raised beds, do hugelkultur. The height and incline factor stops all manner of animals and people from walking on them, etc.

Geoff lawton uses succulents as ground cover, he finds they work very well. It is a method I have copied. I have not yet, however, introduced ice plant due to its tenacious nature.

I do however use many other succulents as ground cover. I try to select ones that fill gaps in my system. Some produce flowers for pollinators at times in the season when other flowers don't. Some provide paddles and fruits for food, some make excellent live borders or even fencing. Some are expensive exotics that self propagate and will become an income stream in the future. There is probably even some shamanic cactus in the mix as well. Some are also good biomass. Some are potted up and given away for holidays, or bartered for other plants. Most are gorgeous!

Used well, succulents become a multifunctional element in a Permie system.

In this example, I agree with Dave. Leave it as your ground cover, one that will protect your soil while other plants get established, then plant your trees and bushes to jump start succession and watch the ice plant die as it gets shaded out. Then replace it with a more appropriate food forest ground cover.

Nice comments Joshua,

Having been to Paul's place I think many of the things they are trying to do or talking about follow along the lines of what you said. Others are future potential improvements.

Somethings, I learned about Paul's style while I was there:
He is invested in going through the process to arrive at a solution. This takes longer than just imposing a solution, but also allows them to develop better solutions in community. It can also be frustrating and slow for those who don't understand this process. I spent the first couple of weeks trying to find Magic bullets to the problems I saw and wanted to 'fix'. Then, I learned to surrender myself to the process of discussing those problems from every angle, trying different ideas and evolving a solution.

Gappers and newbies levels of ability: the description that paul gave me, the one that really clarified the situation, was that of the bad news bears. A group of misfits and goofs, that eventually pull it together and become a powerful team. This long process might be too frustrating and expensive for some of us to manage.

About observing gappers and not being wholly separated from them. Truth is Paul's time is so overladen with imperative tasks which "have to get done" that he doesn't even have enough time to walk and observe the land, much less the people. So I like the idea of trusted captains for the potatoes and mushrooms crews. I think Jesse, for example could be AWESOME at this.

Two cents,
Seth

I like a catchy title and then some facts. Something along the lines of A combo of already mentioned gems...
So I want a title and some catch phrases. Something like...



World Domination Rocket Heater Science 2.0:

Burns clean,

Uses a fraction of the wood,

And heats 100s of times more efficiently.

hey all,

those are some great photos and ideas. I'm thinking of turning my 50 ft of city fence into one big pollinator hotel.

here are some more photos from my time at the kramaterhoff last year. they didn't worry about 'bad' bugs in a complex thriving ecosystem. they made them really big. enjoy

WOFATI gingerbread houses is one of the best things i have seen all year!!!

thank you Kristie, you just turned my world on it's ear.

and thanks for letting us trample through your house at the RMH workshop, congrats on the article.

seth

Paul,
first of all, let me say yes.

This is an excellent potential development.

it would take care of many of the worries and problems we discussed in my time with you and the team. i will address some of those here, if i sound critical, i apologize, I'm a straight talker, and i do so with profound respect for the work you all do out there. in fact, i look very forward to coming back, helping out more, and being a part of the great experiment.

Paul, in my view, essentially, you are creating a new pattern, so that the energies (people) flow through the system in ways that improve and help more than they do currently, and hurt or detract less than now. What you have now is a mixed bag of well meaning mostly awesome individuals in very close proximity in an ever-changing sea of projects, goals and "oh, shit! get that fixed/built before the snow comes" moments. thus, although, it is producing sometimes beautiful results, that fact is inconsistent. more importantly, as you say, so much time and money and people power is waisted due to the inefficiencies mentioned. i remember doing an accounting of kitchen economies that showed you will likely have a 1000 fold reduction in costs and waste as your kitchen systems get developed and become up to speed. (beginnings are hard). so when i read your figures for justin's cost vs. tim's, that really motivates me to implement change. i do agree with the person who said you calculated tim’s cost too low.

i believe that you give too much, too soon. too many options, too few guidelines or restrictions and too many ways to screw up. many people who currently show up at your door, aren't ready. i mean you give them not only excellent food and housing, and training, and so on, but you also give them access to everything. expensive tools, access to a vehicle to get to town, computers, powered vehicles, machinery of all sorts, a chance at the excavator, a place to bunk and a seat at your table, just to name a few. it is like ctaking aged chickens, and suddenly allowing them to go free range, they don't know how to take care of themselves nor behave in the ‘range’. Many are not ready for all this free open choice and imagined responsibility. at the gapper level, many are fresh out of college or their parents' homes, first time out in the world of adults, and few have taken a PDC, so they are taking their first step. so really they haven't done anything, i remember one time rick mentioned that it took him till about 4-5 years ago to get his own personal act together at the age of 38. I think i may have taken just as long, i dunno.

these entry level potatoes and mushrooms should earn more of their keep from the get go, or at least greatly minimize their impact. they should start at the bottom and learn all the systems from the ground up, so they look forward to, learn and master each stage before moving on. I'm talking miyagi style. wax on, wax off. I think my suggestion was to have new people start with the cleaning and waste systems as well as food production. these are two critical areas that cause much waisted time, and two areas that are greatly impacted by an influx of people. so, if the problem is bunch of newbies to cook and clean for, for me, the solution is let them do the cooking and cleaning. let them be at least accomplished at these two areas, so that as they progress, they already have a solid basic orientation to "what it takes to feed and house all these people". i could see new people working in the kitchen a lot for the first three or four weeks as a part of their bread labour.

my point is people need structure. people want to fit into a structure that runs well. and starting at the bottom and working your way up that structure, although not the only way, is a common way here in the US that people can relate to. each level should have rights and responsibilities that are outlined. performance should be tracked, even if in diary format by the potato people, etc. people should show competence and initiative and then be given increased access and/or responsability. i remember many instances where someone failing to do something well was nit because they were bad people, but rather that they really didn't understand what to do (i.e. how to wash dishes and not have them all come out greasy is something that not everyone was up to speed on, and some people couldn't even tell the difference or understand the importance.)

i feel that you are so good-willed, and that you want to give the benefit of the doubt to people, such that your current system depends on everyone being an upstanding individual, someone that goes the extra mile as well as being noble in action. yet in other rants i've heard you say that people aren't noble and living in community means allowing for and designing for our own inherent self centered ego based desires as well as our altruistic moments and tendencies. i think there is a way to be open hearted and give people appropriate access for their own benefit, as well as everyone else's. I'm not saying change your way of bending over backwards for people you just met, i appreciate that, so much. I'm saying design a system that avoids the concomitant pitfalls to your open handed giving nature.

i’m saying give a little, then get a little, then give a little more…. which i believe is in line with how some of your best online partnerships have begun, from hearing your kickstarter stories.

essentially, i feel, that by giving people everything you risk raising spoiled children, rather than gardening gardeners.


now some questions about specifics:
you said the potato village would feed themselves. but the mushroom people could eat at your table, and there could be 20 mushroom people. it sounds like a lot of people to feed and clean up after in that small kitchen space. in fact it sounds like you send the rappers out to the mountain, but then replace them with a new group that is almost as 'resource intensive'

seasonality. as you mention, i love how you can program this concept into the year, lots of newbies in summer, but then less in the winter when you hunker down. so it is not all new people, all the time. you put the incoming energy into manageable waves.

i also like how a person who wants to move up has ago find a sponsor in a higher level to help them. and how higher level people have to find apprentices to 'pull up' the ladder.

costs and efficiency. the idea that you could build your structures faster and cheaper if you hired people, is definitely true in some areas i observed. beginnings are hard and woofers are hard to deal with, why do it all at once. why not bring in more competent people now to get systems up and running, then focus on bringing in more newbies, who will learn the systems already in place by running them, and then improving upon them, and then building their own new systems. the bullocks brothers example came up, and yea they have a system mature enough that newbies are oriented more properly, more easily. and thus detract less / help more. as many organizations confirm, orientation of new people is a key to efficient future potential return by those same people.

also, i encourage you to create a clear and formal application process for people to come out. so that you can help them get up to speed before they come, weed out undesirables, identify how applicants could best fit in, etc. i am sure the bullocks brothers, geoff lawton and joel saletin have this. and i think it would help if you all did, too. you know an orientation packet, a cover letter of some sort, references, interests, goals, bio, multiple phone interviews up the chain of command, etc. something like applying for college. i was listening to a PV podcast about pricing strategies and customers, diego's guest said "if you aren't turning away ten percent of inquiries, you are charging too little." You, too, paul, should be turning some people away. not everyone is a good fit, the earlier you find out the better for you all, as well as for the people wanting to come out.

justin costs $1000 a month, how to reduce this. this is where the 1000 fold reduction in costs and waiste, i mentioned earlier, is going to come from. i assume the financial costs are mostly food, some toiletries, water and electricity, training time. and i imagine food to be the largest part. did I miss something?

have potatoes and mushrooms do work that directly reduces their costs first. they learn to cost less first, then they expand and learn to be more productive/creative.

paul said
"I guess the summary is: rather than providing much more than what other wwoof sites provide (as we have in the past), offer something that is more in-line with the norms. We can still offer the better stuff too - but for those folks that are at a level higher than the 'potato' level.
People can still build skills and experiences, but it is at less expense to us. And when we find the rare person that is well aligned with our stuff, we can move them up to power tools and a place at my table."

i couldn't agree more.

seth peterson
permie chef

Don't eat it is right!

Even if I had a positive ID on that mushroom I would not eat a specimen that is so far gone. That fungi is way past its prime, It is too old, which not only makes it hard to ID but also hard to enjoy eating it.

However, since I do suspect it is an oyster I would watch for more, and you could try a spore print, which you could cultivate, then of course you could just toss it back into the garden in a pile of woodchips.

Andrew,
I live in the east bay, and have taken that class as well as others, multiple times. Great stuff. of course, I took the class back when Ken Litchfield was giving it. So I am curious about the new teacher and new syllabus.

I also know lots of beekeepers, so I may be able to help put you into contact. The question is what do you mean by natural beekeeper, since definitions vary widely.

Seth
Permie chef

Hi All

For those of you myco-bibliophiles who do not already know about this this point your browser to:

http://www.newalexandria.org/archive/

and to find Gordon & Valentina Wasson's classic Mushrooms, Russia and History.
Unless you have $7000.00 to throw down for the genuine article, this PDF version is blessed by the Wasson Estate and is a stunning digital reproduction.

I'm loving the pond updates!!

sepp Holzer showed us his trick to stop erosion on the uphill side of a pond. He seems to have trouble with ducks which forage, 'pecking' away at the uphill side of a pond, which causes erosion. His solution is to plant willow stakes along this edge, to secure erosion and prevent ducks from having access and tearing up the 'uphill shoreline' of the pond.

Seth

Yes, some families were better at it, others not so much.