Dan i think your logic is a little out of balance .... I make biodiesel and it's used by those who landscape using diesel machines .... I'm not sure where Sepp's fuel is from , but it's 100% possible to do it in a manner that is "Permie"
Sorry for my inactivity in recent months ...
Firstly let me start by answering the post with "It's the Wheaton Scale" he can make it what ever he damn well wants !!! That being said ....
With the responses I have seen are vague and cant just "box" someone in... And I think with some of the replies A person could be on multiple levels at the same time....
What i have done
I haven't posted recently because in my "absent time" I set up a face book page with near 400 people, On this page we inform people of their choices, Discuss ideas, give them alternatives, Post pictures of their projects and progress.....
We only focus on the positives while understanding the negatives off solutions rather than harp on the "Bad shyt" ..... Empowering people in Suburban area's to make change .....
I have doubled my chicken flock , Quadrippled my growing space, Made several upgrades to the house including reducing the power expense and CFL's ect ... Better utilize the resources at hand and gearing up for larger scale home production .....
Currently upgrading my AP system to 4X the volume and production aswell ....and looking at setting up a 3m3 anaerobic biodigester at home ..... I now hugel kulture..... And i have developed a hate for the term "organic"
What i haven't done
I have not had the resources to invest in wind or solar .... I have not done completely away with CFL's , I have never undertaken a certified course ...
I think Dale Hodgins nailed it with "Paul's scale is heavily slanted toward food, as would be expected on this sort of forum. My personal scale has more to do with total environmental footprint and my affect on the footprints of others. Some of how I affect how others behave has come from me supplying them with reclaimed resources, some has come from educating them, with cost savings being the motivating goal, and finally, I have cost the bad guys massive amounts of money and caused some change in behavior as a result."
Through my own actions I have stopped several hundred acres from being sprayed and educated and opened the door for those who are "The new farmers" , Empowered those who felt powerless , Offered solutions ... And not looked down on anyone either for being "crazy" (high on the wheaton scale) or belittled them (being lower on the wheaton scale) ... This is by far more achievement i could do on my own personal 613m2 ... I support my local farmers , not by "Buy a Bale" keeping a flawed system afloat.... If they have bad practices and cant survive even with subsidies they dont deserve to "farm" .... Those who have embraced a more "Permie" approach gets my $$$$
Peace and Love Dave OXOXOXO
@ Jason , Thank you so much for not only taking the time to research this and for providing links to your points , greatly appreciated, I don't take it as an "Attack" in any form, It's wonderful to understand another's thought processes and understandings, Especially when we come from such different cultures While i'm not refuting those figures on costs of manufacture (BTU's) they do not factor in the mining the and acquisition of new materials, I live 2 hours drive from "Portland" where "Portland" cement actually originated... they also have 2 coal power stations nearby ... In-which a brick making company is making bricks from the fly-ash ...And Australia is one of the largest exporters of Bauxite (Alumina)..... I would like point out though that the figures you have linked only point to cost of manufacture , not cost of sourcing nor cost of transport nor the footprint left behind from doing so , Clay is usually sourced on site and therefore a lot more economical than whats stated in those links , Silica largely trucked in.. I 100% agree that there is a 30% power saving from recycled glass in heat value , but also glass and aluminium can be recycled an indefinite amount of times and transport costs are greatly reduced as they come for the consumers who have disposed of them..... and close to it's redistribution point .... thus increasing energy savings an environmental costs.....
Lets look at 1 tonne of glass
1000kg > 700kg > 490kg > 343kg > 240kg > 168kg > 117kg ect
This is how much product is reused per cycle from that original 1 tonne of glass that's recycled
And to simply state it's a 30% saving is misleading , as it's 30% saved each cycle (BTU's), That's just energy costs .... It's also used 90%-70% less external inputs of silica , Less mining and transport and associated CO2 footprint for those actions, 90% more beach left
Our state doesn't have the cash for cans or bottles system in place , though our neighboring states do......
Sorry this was a quick post and i have no supporting links , but i'm 10 mins late taking kids to school XD .... will edit with links when i have a chance , but is easily verifiable
It's well known they employ forum trolls and media disinformation tactics to control the masses , They have a multi-billion dollar operation to protect, They make huge sums paying off politicians and government services to protect their interests, I use Diatomaceous earth a lot for my gardening , but i still have concerns in it's use in industry , Fair enough it's non toxic to humans if not beneficial , but it is still mined and takes millions of years to form, and kills indiscriminately , so in my eye's it's not perfect by any measure and is finite as a resource (correct me if i am misinformed on this).... Since the industry can patent chemicals , and DE cant be , they will always have more control and therefore more say, So employing people for disinformation keeping the masses on their side makes perfect business sense ... while i am sure the bulk of us permies wont like it, It's the nature of the beast as it currently stands ...
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
I'm sure this will not be a popular post , but needs to be posted none-the-less, While popular thinking is re-using Glass or plastic bottles and tin cans is "green" into bottle walls you are actually removing these recyclable elements out of the recycling chain, most glass when recycled is added to 10-30% new glass and re-molten, as is the case with aluminium cans , removing these from the chain is actually increasing carbon due to the need to manufacture new glass and cans ... with less material recycled , something needs to fill the void keeping up with demand... Far less energy goes into recycling production than new material production.... Clever alternatives do become available once this is understood , for eg using car windshields as these are laminated and hardened as such are non recyclable but are reclaimable, some plastics are not able to be recycled but can be locked into walls, behind enough material so they don't out-gas.... Aerosol cans can't be recycled, Glassware can't be recycled (tempered) eg cookware, All can be used effectively in bottle walls, shredded paper cant be recycled but can be used in papercrete... i know a lot of this doesn't fit the "colored bottle wall" as well , and there is still a place for that , but in places where it's not so important , please look into other options, your contribution may not be noticed , but the environment will thank you accordingly
Peace and Love Dave OXOXOX
Does the same or similar laws exist for "Pets" ? Maybe you'd have a petshop / aquarium nearby who might place the order for you for a small mark-up, or maybe you know of a land holder who would travel with you when buying the fish/livestock ? Maybe there is a process where you can apply for an exemption, and take that proof with you when purchasing ... Just throwing idea's out there , I'd never suggest breaking any laws , But a lot of creative people succeed looking at the same problem from a different angle, The old adage "There's many ways to skin a cat...."
Welcome to permies !!, may i ask what's the issue about permits? what type of fish are you looking at growing out ? I'm sure there are many in this vast community whom would have experience and guidance to give freely, Some of whom may be aware of your local by-laws ect
Awesome thread guys keep it going !!!
A few suggestions that you can use if you like
A) drop the dimmer switch and get a Pulse width modulator (PWM) $10 on ebay they are far superior for brushed motors (it's what i use with a Makita blower) for heavier gear, OR use a foot pedal/motor setup from a sewing machine with a drum fan (squirrel cage), easy to set up and stops when not in use
B) using a "hood" over your forge keeps fumes out of your face and a small portion can be use via venturii into your intake , to pre-warm the incoming air
C) I use a small graphite crucible and melt aluminium in it (old cans ect) and use it to sand cast items (using degasser's and flux)
D) Great little series of books called "Workshop Practice Series" , 44 books on basically everything any blacksmith, machinist to forger could wish for in easy to understand 100 page-ish books
E) Youtube has a lot of people doing things just like you guys are doing and can be a wealth of information (both successes and failures) and completely free
F) Make your own tools , anything from tongs to hammers can be made from easily salvaged goods
In my experience , There is no BETTER craft than blacksmithing or foundry work, It is the foundation of all trades within society
Even in your failures you will find success , learn from your mistakes and plow forward, It's the most time honored skills any human can possess !!!
Ok i have done a lot more research on this topic ( For Australians / Law ) While you can own a still once you have received a licence to distill, you have to pay a 38.143c/ltr excise tax on the alcohol produced , but the government gives a return of 38.143c/ltr (EPG)... if using NO petroleum denaturant (ie Methanol , Propanol) ... The still basically needs it's own building (lockable) and consent for inspection needs to be given..... Transport of fuel needs an application (waiting on an answer if this includes car fuel tank) .... Huge amount of record keeping, and waiting to hear if "Feints" are classed as a denaturant.... will post when i get more info ..... Location/Set-up would also need to follow ALL HACCP protocols, MSDS ect , has a $500 Liciencing fee for the ATO , and is a state one of between $75-$3500-ish production dependant ... While i think the laws are kind of restrictive , i do think it could be done, although more suited to someone who has a greater need to do so than i at this time.. I currently have Blume's book on order and think it should be an interesting read !!!
Peace and Love Dave oxoxoxo
This is just a thought for anyone who might see similar issues with similar set-ups, Using a TEG Generator that runs your pump wouldn't need any outside power , when you apply heat to one side(outgoing pipe from boiler) , and air or water cooled other side (incoming pipe to boiler for eg) the pump would engage automatically , so this would never be an issue due to being solid state electronics ....
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
What are you guys paying currently per gal ? $3 give or take , when your paying $8.00 AUD for E10 ($7.09 USD) then you might think the effort is a little more worth while , considering i have to drive 82km for shopping (50 Miles)
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
I know this isn't what your asking but it might be an answer for another reader ,
Using a small electric source like a solar cell , Urine is easily split into hydrogen gas and oxygen , you can use it in Oxy welding/ cutting , or cooking
While i haven't read Dave's book, I have watched his youtubes , I do agree with a lot of what he speaks of , And i am hoping that he talks of this in his book , as i haven't been able source the answer to this question elsewhere ..... "What do we make roads out of ?", we all know roads are either Bitumen or concrete , both are terrible for the environment , Bitumen is a by-product of oil manufacture , so if we all go to ethanol what replaces the road surface ? i know both lignins and cellulose can be made into plastics , and both biodegrade, yet i haven't seen anyone address a replacement road surface or whether it would require additional farming or produced from a waste from alcohol manufacture, nor the life expectancy /replacement of such a product....
Peace and Love Dave oxoxoxox
PS i have done a lot of research on this and many related topics , but seems a question no one asks , or has an answer too , If it has been answered , please forgive my ignorance
Well i can't answer "how to stop the gas" but i can answer "how to reduce the gas" i make a white sauce usingthing them , or puree them in mashed potato , you still get that wonderfull flavour but not "as mush" gas production , amd sure others may be able to point you in the right direction tho
Peace and Love Dave OXOXOXO
@ Tel, you'll find the remaining bees after the yellow jacket invasion are more resistant , If you de-queen them and they make a new one , you will find the whole colony will be more resistant to future attacks.. A general rule we use out here is the color of the queen also determines the temperament, Darker colored queens usually have more resistance to disease / pests , with slightly less production , and ones with more yellow have higher yield and more docile and more vulnerable to outside influences... there is always exceptions to this rule of course , tho noticeable over the amount of hives i used to tend
100% agree , I personally dislike "emergency queens" feeling a natural selection by the bees themselves usually raise better queens.... I tended so many hives as part of commercial production with the sole purpose of queen rearing, My Mate (the boss/Hive owner) had 10+ workers and a travel range in excess of 500 km following the honey flows of various flower types... I personally think the system is a perversion of the natural system... but is also the most commonly employed around here ... A lot of the selection criteria for "emergency queens" were about less aggressive / more production orientated ... and less about what was suited to any individual area or cold climate production ect
We export a lot tho our wages are high, i'd say if we start importing more , anything is possible, I wouldn't discount it happening, and @ your comment
generally the existing queen that leaves with the first swarm of the season, called the prime swarm, before any new queens have hatched. prime swarms are frequently followed by one or more cast swarms that will each include a young queen.
I cant say i have seen this due to the nature of the way our hives have been manipulated , any queen after mating doesn't leave the nest , as all queen cells are squashed and hives expanded to keep her in , if hive numbers start to drop off because the queen gets "old" she's usually removed and replaced by a fresh "emergency queen", I have read exactly as you describe , But not something i have witnessed first hand
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
It's one way , we didn't ever have mite loads as we used DE or Borax in sale board similar to This link , kills beetle and mites, as well as other dust treatments... Also being in Australia (heat / isolation) may have a lot to do with it
there's some disagreement about the timing of the fight to the death between remaining queens. the prevailing wisdom seems to be that the first queen hatched immediately sets about stinging any un-hatched queens to death. if more than one manage to hatch, they will battle. then the one survivor will go on a mating flight.
I wont disagree with a word you say , as i said from my experience only i used to tend 10,000-30,000 hives annually , heavily manipulated commercial hives, saying that , limits how much time i could observe any single hive and it's dynamics.... Also ALL the queening we did was artificial so all queens emerged at once.. so not as versed as i should be other than texts i have read .... Personally i do agree that a natural swarm queen is the strongest.... And why i spoke of "emergency Queens" as they usually undersized and at best , average genetics, there are tricks to making them stronger , though it's a system i personally don't favor..... But each to their own
While we are in the right forum section , and a lot of great minds watching this post i have a question i haven't found an answer to.... When one makes bio-diesel is it necessary to refine the alcohol into methanol or ethanol ? or could one wash the mix with a wash after the lye process ? ie make a 20% turbo wash and scrub the oil/bio-diesel without distillation? allowing it to trans-estify and scrub the salts / acidity in one process... would use a lot less energy for a completed product .. Just thinking aloud
The purpose of the weighted accumulators in the system is to buffer the hydraulic pressure
This is the purpose of the accumulators on tractor hydraulic systems they are only small , 1/2 the size of a soccer ball but can withstand 4000 PSI
Or Air accumulators in trucks for there breaking system, used only to eliminate vast pressure fluctuations
Peace and Love Dave oxoxxoxo
Either way . lets get thread back on track , rather than debating
There will always be lots of debate about "whats right" and what "works best", And so all i can do as offer some insight from my own experience
A) 100% right it circumvents swarming (a natural split) Bees will make numerous queens and the strongest will kill off the others, then leave with workers to form a swam till it finds a new home, the remaining hive makes another set of queens sensing their loss and the strongest of those queens stays to run the hive (natural system)..... this makes for the strongest hives and most viable queens ... but does limit production over this time... In a commercial set-up several practices are used at this point , some squash the queen cells , and add another super to make a larger hive giving them higher numbers as a workforce ... OR they split to make 2 hives so no swam .... OR they squash the queens cells and add a queen frame in to get the to produce many queens (emergency) for seeding into queen-less hives or creating new ones (splits).... while the Apiarist isn't liable for the swam , (commercial thinking) is 1) a loss of workforce = profits 2) seeds wild hives that cant be monitored for AFB, EFB and beetles/moth ect and can be a source of infection to your existing hives ....
B) Every hive has a nuc and doing the technique you mention isn't favored as downtime is too long, and not all take, most seed queens with a few brood frames and a honey frame into new nuc hives, speeding up the process significantly , downside is it's usually an emergency queen (inferior)
C) The "trigger" to a queen-less hive is mostly (not always) a pheromone released by the queens death .... often hives die out/die back before they realize they are queen-less
D) In a commercial sense, Apiarists don't like loss, Inhibits production to they tend to avoid it , also the new queen might be better suited to the job and create workers who are better suited also...
most "emergency queens" aren't strong queens and Apiarists find the 2nd queen in the hive does much better , even to a point where i know Apiarists who kill the emergency queen (to release pheromone) in the second year to create a "Natural queen" in the second year of a split ...... Making them better suited to local environment (robust/production wise)
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
In Australia most filter mediums are fiberglass, with the exception of "Benson and Hedges" that use cotton, 98% of the tobacco sold in Aus uses artificial drying and curing methods and NOT the original fermenting process of days gone by... If you have a natural product then one could easily make it into a natural pesticide if one was to require one .... Yes all natural products do decompose even Uranium given time ... I'd use it for compost on trees and other non edibles.... tho wouldn't use it on a vegie patch without 100% knowledge of it's contents
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
Excellent job Dave and including the kids so much better !! , i get my kids to help plant seeds , raise them and harvest them (5 and 2 yo's) they get great fulfillment from it and takes the burden out of making them eat their vegies *big thumbs up*
They will decompose being organic , the filters are not likely to if they are synthetic , i would be hesitant to do so because of the amount of chemicals used in manufacture, and certainly wouldn't use on food products (Am a smoker myself) i don't think personally there is enough organic matter to warrant using them , and certainly too many chemical unknowns to be sure of complete breakdown
i don't know how much land you have to work but This tool could work for smaller area's and could be modified to be pulled by a smaller animal like a Alpaca/llama, pony , goat ect, but i would suggest as Su Ba has , walk behind tractors or ATV's with home engineered field work accessories, youtube is full of inspiration, A lot of the 2nd world have excellent examples, places like Russia , Indonesia, China, Thailand ect
Here's a Link to a multi-purpose walk/ride behind tractor
Home made potato lifter Link
@ r John
I understand that , and in Australia we do have similar, yet neither of us have earthquake / hurricane prone area's, or land-masses likely to move or sink ... In your situation hydraulic accumulators and thermal mass might be more suited to your local environment and building practices, but could be detrimental in a place like Japan or New Zealand , places like Japan and NZ might be better suited to a trompe with air accumulators running an air motor and generator setup, or geothermal since they are both close to tectonic plate edges, or even a hydraulic ram (water hammer) pump moving water mass to a height for later use .... I'm not discrediting your line of thought, seems a winner in a space short high mass area, as long as hydraulic failure doesn't split your house in two , Guess i am saying it's "horses for courses" with application of alternate energies
Peace and Love Dave OXOXOX
Various types of accumulators are common , nearly every farm has an "overhead tank", most hydraulic systems on machinery use hydraulic accumulators filled with nitrogen gas, In the spirit of the start of this thread is "what can a common man do?" since most of us don't have access to large volumes of running water, nor have a large budget, and every conversion of energy creates a loss, i don't believe any "one shoe fits all" approach can work , each situation will be taken on it's merits, PV is one of the best that we currently have, cheaper than most to install , maintain and get returns on, and as Marcos rightly points out , for the vast populous would be in a position to utilize it, as would be the case with Algae... where as Hydro, Geo-thermal and the like would be out of most peoples reach... Small scale versions of This Link could also be used not requiring PV but using thermal mass... or something like This Link. Both these systems can be scaled according to use , incorporated with other systems, and the latter made from cheap easily sourced materials , with either the generator turbine mounted at top or bottom ...
@ Marcos I did put up some of the info i have in the PV section on these forums with some youtubes and study links a few months ago , but does take us off topic for this thread
Marcos "Perhaps this is something that can be engineered out. At an appropriate scale (which would be fairly large) it may be worth the trouble, but in any case that CO2 in the exhaust seems too valuable a resource in that setting to let it go."
People are already making steps to do this , personally i think using waste gasses from breweries would be the answer , a more pure source ...Heres a nice Youtube All Batteries have an inherent issue that to charge a battery to 100% requires 147% power input... let alone any losses discharging it... so a mini hydro setup loosing 35% (estimate) isn't so wasteful once compared to other storage means, Thermal mass and other storage means you mention would well exceed a batteries efficiency...
yes current laws seem at odds with the "goals" they like to pretend they wish to reach .... Put simply , saving you money, costs them taxes ... being self reliant relinquishes there control...
Oh my bad and never mind me , the article i was reading was on problems concerning Linoleic acid conversions to Arachidonic acid in mammals, and aparently pretty rare , Quinoa was metioned as one of the better sources of Linoleic Acid.. and nice youtube , will look at it when the kids are sleeping greatly apreciated
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
EROI + cost of cleanup will always place you in a negative with PV regardless of subsidies ..... Economically most things can show a return when you discount the environmental cost... wood gasifiers are made from easily manufactured , recycled or reclaimed materials , easy to repair and maintain.... PV are disposable , although long lived , have to be to get any return, aren't repairable to a large extent and are incredibly polluting to manufacture, and have almost no ability to be recycled ....
In regards to algae, yes it could be produced and burnt as a biomass , without having to extract the oil present first , and exhaust could be used to dry the algal matter, however , as a food-stock for algae won't work for 2 reasons , exhaust contains CO1 (carbon monoxide) unprocessed will kill the plants , and also will make the water into carbonic/carbolic acid, most of the algalforms like spirulina are in such extreme alkali PH no other plants can grow.In Australia's northern territory they are growing food grade spirulina (Arthrospira Maxima Spp.) in outdoor ponds for human consumption (Site reference)
I do like your mini grid system, and i have seen a decent way to handle those loads... Excess electricity produced from gasification is used to pump water uphill , and when released on demand onto a pelton wheel to a secondary generator thus totally eliminating battery storage... while losses are at a moderate level , EROI is high and capital outlay is low (situation dependent)...
Another system i have seen and like is a converted Prius of all things , with a step-down transformer and an inverter run from pig waste from a bio-digester , Motor charges battery running off methane, farm sheds run off the inverter allowing the biodigester time to restock on gas... not something i have done much with so cant relay the specifics like output or duration ect , i can only imagine larger battery banks and a gasifier could be utilized... cant speak to the EROI on it but most prototypes cost more than there outputs...
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
In Northern NSW and Queensland (Australia) they use peanut shells in a bio-gasifier to power generators and in oil extraction, i have worked at several abattoirs whom use rendered tallow in bio-diesel generators ,
Philip Durso " I don't believe it will replace conventional oil. I do believe can go a long way towards making a farm/homestead less reliant on outside inputs & therefore more profitable. A penny saved is a penny earned ; )"
His pig waste and hazelnut shells could also be scavenged for energy .... i think the sharing of information is as key as people leading the way via achievement.... Any and every step towards sustainable living should be celebrated
Peace and Love Dave oxoxox
@ M Foti can i ask did you chill the bio mix and filter the cold cloudy liquid ? bio-diesel needs to have the other lipids removed and the salts are removed via extensive washing... I do know this is a prevalent problem with a lot of home mixes.. and is why in my example above i only used a tiny amount to start the process , once the process is established , it could viably be omitted, Fossil diesel fuel is sold in mixes for both summer and winter, using summer fuel during winter will cause it to make gelatinous plates in the fuel filter... i similar thing happens with WVO , the pressure in the pump , injector and engine all squeeze out the impurities leaving a "lacquer" to form leading to those expensive repairs you mention...
I will admit i have made far less than you by the sounds , and have only used mine in small single cylinder low compression (16:1 i think) engine (Lister)....
The dynamics my very well change with high compression 20-22:1 turbo common rail injection ..... so cant make fair comment on those
I do think that Algae manufactured on site would be about the only economical production method , no crop grown specifically for bio-fuels seems cost effective, only seems to get ahead when you use a waste product from another process... the more processing , transporting or handling you have reduces viability of the operation, to a point as you mention , when there are no gains economically , although would still be some environmentally
Agreed although wasn't the one i was in reference too , i believe it's pretty hard to get a toxic amount of Oxalic acid unless all you eat are brassica family ... i think it's something more akin to the silica's in nettles when they get closer to seeding, i'll re-find and re-link the literature when i have a chance... TY for your input though
Statement of the year "YOUR ALL WRONG"
On a serious note though , your all onto the right path... i'm not claiming to have the answer and you ALL have very valid points...
IF there was a magic bullet to this issue someone would be selling it to you, I know Marcos is passionate with bio-gasification via destructive decomposition and it's truly an amazing concept but realistically couldn't be implemented in city's and such where the bulk of energy is used, Bio-gas reactors using methane digestors do stand a better chance in those senario's ...... Bio-diesel from WVO or similar is a good repurposed of waste... but creating new oil specifically for it isn't viable at this stage (save algae) and PV is truely a false economy... Justus is 100% right in the fact it will take nothing less than a total shift in culture and energy use and i believe in my heart it wont be "Any one solution" it will be a combination of all of them....
Here's an example of what i mean (all hypothetical but for illustration purposes)
A family wastes 1lt's of cooking oil per week converted into bio-diesel , runs a diesel generator used to fell and process a tree
the greens from the tree are thrown into a bio-digestor converted to methane , the solids fed to a bio-gasifier ... Water used in the cooling of the gasifier is your water heater once used , then circulates in the digestor to keep thermophyllic heat range then into your algae bioreactor, the gas produced runs your generator or cooking as would the bio-digestor, the methane produced from the bio-digester is water scrubbed of hydrogen sulfide and then feeds the Algae with CO2 for further scrubbing allowing it to be compressed for use or storage... the waste liquid is fertilizer for your tree crop... A lot of trees produce oils that can be used in bio-diesel production, ben oil (Moringa) Eucalyptus , Tea tree ect ... easily extracted using heated water-baths (supplied from cooling waters)
So basically the Ethos should be around using "Wastes" as "Inputs" to the next part of the chain... using the sun to be the value-adder
without flooding you all with statistics , and going into how diesel , bio-gas is made ect ... it's more "proof of concept", excesses could be easily sold into city's to meet the needs there while still providing income to rural area's allowing the systems to perpetuate .... not all of these systems have to be used , and could be in almost limitless configurations ....
I've tried 3 times this year to get some going , though the "organic" ones i have bought both red and white cross state lines, Every "food" in Australia gets radiation treatment and sterilizes the seeds...Once immersed in water they swell up and split then die , 100% non viable... Also with a lot of the literature i have seen all recommend not to consume too much of the leafy greens (for humans) because of a chemical produced that can reduce assimilation of some vitamins/minerals ... At the moment I have Amaranth growing that doesn't have the same problem and can eat the greens to your hearts content, My understanding of both Quinoa and Amaranth is that the seed heads are harvested by shaking the seeds out of the plant over several times during harvest rather than removing the seed heads completely as the seeds don't all ripen at the same time... Another problem with Quinoa is temperature, anything over 32 deg C (89.6 deg F) will sterilize the pollen vastly reducing yields .....
For anyone who hasn't come across Quinoa (Keen-wah) It is a rice substitute many many times better for you , i have 2 young children (5 and 2 year old) and i think they have had rice twice in their lives , All home-cooked "rice dishes" are Quinoa in my household , included are the "rice custard" desserts, it does look different on the plate but would be hard pressed to pick a flavor difference , My kids have it by choice and it cooks in 1/2 the time of rice but does require more prep due to the saponins that require removal by washing
Both of these pseudo-grains have too many good points to list and would encourage everyone to self study further into these foods that cant be dismissed
Firstly guys awesome thread *thumbs up* keep it going ...
I hadn't been following this thread , and just read through it .. needless to say a lot of great idea's, I'd like to reiterate 3 key points i think everyone should observe,
1) START SMALL and build up to a larger system ... For every plant or fish you include will bring it's own set of problems .....
2) USE LOW STOCKING RATES ..... any problem like low oxygen , high ammonia , chemical imbalances and the like will exacerbate at a much faster rate, often not allowing time to remedy
3) KEEP IT SIMPLE ..(KISS).... The more convoluted a system is the more chance something will go wrong...
And to further extend point 3 a little , work out your local environmental conditions , and farm to that.... Do not try and grow trout in 40 deg C heat , or tilapia in -40 deg C cold...
and do not over invest , i have seen people build $4k systems and harvest less than $200 annually each year for 5 years and their systems now need refurbishing at $2k+
Always quantify your systems costs versus returns same as any other business.... Quantify everything
I have seen people using $800 systems growing $500 of vegies a season and $200 from fish...excluding what they harvested for their family during the year.... (CHOP Mk2)
and there system would have another 8-10 years more life in it ....
I've seen $80k crop/stock loss from a stuck thermistat in a greenhouse that cooked everything as it failed to open vents in a self regulating system...Had no redundancy system
Hatfield : "I pretty much agree that aquaponics is not pure permaculture" this is something that could be argued untill the cows come home .... My personal view is it IS... without going on a ranting tangent