A cement tabletop could be DIYed in any shape, much cheaper than cutting stone. It could be made as thick as you think your floor will support.. much of it could probably be filled with larger stones to save cost and environmental footprint, since it is not very structural..

Or large tiles or pavers or even metal as a tabletop on a bin full of sand.. much easier to move.. no risk of leaks.. I think key here would be having somewhat decent thermal transfer from the tabletop in direct sun, to the rest of the mass..

One could get fancy and put some hollow tubes through this to speed thermal transfer..

This sounds like a very useful idea! I will certainly be experimenting with it. And the sides of my brush hog are just about shot from rock impacts anyhow... A brush hog seems a slow way to cut compared to a dedicated hay mower twice as wide... but as a way to cut a field that would ruin a hay mower, it sounds great. And the brush hog also cuts heavier stuff.. and can often be found used much cheaper than even a small hay mower..

I've got a 5ft brush hog on a 50HP tractor. It is a pretty good match: there are times I could be running a 6-7ft at a comfortable speed, but there are also times I'm moving at a dead crawl with the throttle pegged, to cut thick reed canary grass.

Jim Fry wrote:Look up "bush hog mower" or "rotary mower". There are many widths, wide and narrower. With a small tractor you'd probably want a 5'. They come either with three-point hitch or pto driven pull behind, with two, height adjustable, wheels. You can often find them used. ~~Then the trick is to take off the bolted on, or if necessary cut off, the (passenger side) right side, side plate. With the side off, the hay is cut and trapped under the mower just long enough to crimp the long stems of grass, and throw it out the side. The grass/hay doesn't get cut into smaller pieces. The crimping helps the hay to dry faster.

Let the hay dry a day or two, then use pitch forks to pick it up. At times I have loaded the hay into a manure spreader, or a hay wagon, for transport to barn. When you can afford it, later on, get a hay rake. Side delivery rakes tend to be numerous where horses used to be used. They work fine for small operations. And with smaller tractors. Some side delivery rakes have a lever to switch it over to ted with. That means the tines rotate backwards so that when you rake with it, it turns the hay over so it dries faster, without raking it into windrows.

Make sure your hay is dry before putting it in a more tightly sealed space, or it can mold or even self-combust. Check around any older farms for older equipment they might have that they don't use any more. Also, you might want to volunteer at any hay making farms so you can learn some about what to do.

~~~I used a bush hog for years before I finally moved up to a hay bine. I made tens of thousands of bales. And sold many of them to happy customers. The rest I fed to my cattle.

James Alun wrote:

On overrun brakes vs electric brakes. Are electric brakes just on or off? The overrun brakes will apply more braking force the harder the towing vehicle is braking.

Nope, electric brakes require the tow vehicle to have a brake controller; this modulates the braking force based on the brake pedal position, simplying by varying the voltage applied to the brakes. There is an adjustment wheel or slider so that you can adjust this, very important. The correct setting for my dump trailer empty, will be grossly inadequate with ~5 tons in it... but running it at the fully loaded setting while empty, would see the trailer brakes locking up and tires skidding every time I so much as touch the brake pedal..

Oddly enough this controller has been an aftermarket thing in every truck/van I have ever owned, but not expensive or difficult as long as the vehicle already has the wiring and 7-pin trailer connector to support it.

One really nice aspect of electric brakes is that the controller will have a button to allow manual application of the trailer brakes alone. In a situation where the trailer is getting out of control and weaving side to side behind you, you may be able to recover by applying a bit of trailer braking, or by maxing out the trailer brakes in combination with more moderate braking from the tow vehicle.  I am confident this saved my life on one occasion, coming down a steep hill with a very heavy load..


With that experience still a vivid memory after some years, I would never use overtaking brakes unless the trailer and load was very moderately sized relative to the tow vehicle..

James Alun wrote:

I'd agree that brakes are a good idea. I'm much more used to overrun brakes, for this size, are ebrakes standard on this size trailer?

Most of the utility sized trailers I have seen lack brakes.. but effectively the same 3500lb axles are under ziĺlions of RV trailers and those pretty well all have electric brakes...

That's a nice little trailer, and vehicle collection!

Does it have mounting flanges for brakes on the axle? Trailer brakes are a glorious thing, when you suddenly need them!



I would guess it probly has a 3500 or 4500lb axle; I'm basing this on what look, from an angle, to be 5 lug wheels. In my experience all of the modern style 7k trailer axles I have seen have been 8 lug..

5000lb axles have been generally 6 lug.

3500lb and 4500 axles have all been 5 lug; 3500 are far more common, seems like most heavier applications go to 5k axles rather than 4500s..

A rainscreen is exactly what I would use.. but this does complicate the assembly. And it implies that the metal is not the whole of the wall..

Starting from the outside, in my climate, you might have, for example:

Steel siding
Rainscreen (just battens to create an air gap. Vented to the outside top and bottom.
(Air barrier to prevent windwashing ext insul?)
(Optional external insulation?)
Air barrier
Sheathing
Insulation/studs
Air barrier/Vapour retarder/Interior wall



In practice, for farm buildings, that is not happening.

For a shed roof, steel over underlayment over plywood is fine for me. Occasionally a drip or two inside if there is snow on the roof and things suddenly get warm.. but night and day vs steel on purlins..



Sprayfoam directly onto steel is popular inside seacans.. gross but it works.

*IF* your foam is closed cell and you seal all the gaps well, it should work ok. No air on the steel, no condensation..

So, more electrically advanced folks.. is it clearly advantageous to go from DC power to 3-phase AC for this application?

Big DC motors are around. Like the one proposed as the first step in this conversion to 3-phase..

One usual downside of DC is the wire size needed. But this could perhaps be kept to a pretty short run.. just over half the length of the mill worth of travel, if the power comes to the midpoint.. plus however much distance from the batteries as absolutely required...

Is the leviathan a 48v system? I have no idea whether it would make more sense to try and run the mill at 48v, or convert to 180v or some other common industrial voltage point...



PS; is there some discussion elsewhere of why the lab really wants swing blade vs bandsaw?

William Bronson wrote:Yes, the idea is to make a mini travel trailers, not a live in.
Most of the small boats I see are aluminum or fiberglass hulled, maybe they are not as light as I think?

The fibreglass ones are usually not very light.. aluminum can be really light but less likely to be free..

A canopy for a pickup will usually be built lighter, and be a pretty optimal width. Old ugly ones are free reasonably often.. I find one every couple years on average.

Be prepared to reseal all windows, maybe a bit of fibreglass repair, and the doors are often F'ed, but probably you would be building a better door anyhow..

Around here the salvage will cover payment if you don't mind the risk of some uninsured amateur doing the work, and the wood is mostly still good.

Professionals charge..

It seems to me that the big risks involve collapse. So, you might consider pulling the building over, prior to letting amateur hour begin.. if you are comfortable doing that.

I've done several small buildings as an amateur, it's fun and sometimes even worthwhile.. but I am pretty careful, and some people are not.

Good structures are a great headstart.

Bad ones are more trouble than starting from scratch.

I have 4 small farm buildings: a 2 story about 400sf, and 3 single story about 1000sf each.

They were built by morons with no regard at all for longevity or quality. I am attempting to patch them up anyhow, because I like the character of them.. but it sure eats time compared to a clean slate.

The impact of these on my property price was zero, compared to identically sized neighbouring properties... but the impact on my planning was significant, starting with things to utilize but also limitations..


I'd prefer a clean slate if starting again.. unless it was really good quality stuff.

Interesting. It seems like maybe this tool could also be useful for putting various types of temporary electric fence posts in the ground..

I can picture a couple different versions, and it seems pretty straightforward to make.. but I have no time to play with the idea this year. Hopefully I will trip on this thread in a year or three..

I wonder if in the meantime a steel bar, like a 5ft wrecking/pry bar with a straight tip, might do a good job punching holes for your saplings?

Check out the direct solar cookers that living energy farm uses, I think they call them roxies. I see nomreason they couldn't run on 12v, just need bigger wiring. Control would definitely be easier at 12V.

jordan barton wrote:

Dustin Rhodes wrote:it is commonly used as floats for aquaculture planting. not sure what drawbacks there would be, as i have no firsthand experience though...

I would reconsider using Styrofoam for aquaculture . There is so much of it in the oceans/beaches. Ducks seem to get into it.


In all honesty i would suggest not using it in water at all.

Wood floats, i am sure there are other ways to float plants....

Ya, this. It is a TERRIBLE pollutant used raw in floats.

It can be coated somehow, I do not know the details.. maybe in an application where monitoring is easy it would be ok.. maybe.

It is insulative but also pretty combustible..

Andrew Mayflower wrote:

Heather Sharpe wrote:

Lynn Cheshski wrote:Oh and I assume you already called the sheriff due to threats. You said they threatened you with retaliation if you had called animal control. That's some serious stuff. It will be your words against theirs if something happens down the road. I'd go to the sheriff's office and make a report. They need to know what's  going on. I had to involve sheriff in the past and haven't heard from the offenders ever since. Unless you're in a kind of place where you're the outsider and everyone else is related (to the sheriff too, lol)

Yes, I did talk to our town marshal with the specific intent of getting the threatening behavior on record. He seemed unconcerned, I don't know if he filed a report or anything. Maybe I need to talk to the city police instead? It seems like now they've begun trespassing on my land themselves. Or at least letting their drunk friends do so, as I found several red solo cups on the ground 15 feet from my front door this morning. Given that these people have threatened to hurt me if I ever ask them to respect my space or try to hold them accountable for anything, I really don't know what to do. It seems like the police either don't take it seriously or want to put the burden on me to stay up all night so I can catch these unstable people hanging out in my yard in the wee hours of the night. Frankly, I'm also afraid if the police were to talk to them, that would be dangerous for me. I really just don't know what to do.
I feel like a fence of some kind, or at least gates and no trespassing signs are needed. Though I don't know if they'd really stop people like this or change the situation much.

No trespassing signs, and game trail/security cameras.  Best if the cameras transmit the images/videos rather than storing them on the device.  That way if they destroy the camera you have the data still.  Then prosecute (after any degree of warning you feel appropriate) any violators.  If anyone destroys your property (including but not limited to the cameras, your chickens, and your home/cars) file charges of malicious mischief, animal cruelty, etc as appropriate and without any warnings.  ​Note that some of those are felonies, and can have serious lifetime repercussions to the charged, so that should be an effective Clue-by-4 upside their head.  If you aren't a gun owner, consider becoming one.  Learn how to use it, and what does (and, probably more importantly, does not) constitute legal self-defense.  

Document ALL interactions with them.  Especially threats.  Voice and or video recording is ideal, but a written note  on the event is better than nothing.  

That or move.  It would be nice if the idiots next door would move, but you can't force them to do so.

Exactly all of this.

Cameras, like Now!

No personal experience, but something along the lines of simplisafe might suit you, if their products perform as claimed.. Standard gamecams have been pretty unreliable in my experience for a wide variety of reasons.


Yep, if you are going to own a gun, you need to be familiar with it and competent, get some training in firearms handling and defensive shooting if you have the slightest doubt about this.

And yes, definitely wise to brush up on local laws about self defense while you're at it.

Good luck!

Philip McGarvey wrote:I would be concerned about how the wildlife would feel about it - I want this land to be a refuge for them.  Bears, cougars, fisher cats, otters, woodrats, owls, ravens, hundreds of squirrels, and so much more.  It would be a completely new sound and they would probably be freaked out hearing it so close to them, it would probably scare some of them into leaving.  That's enough to outweigh any convenience I could hypothetically get from using a drone.

I hate when people use them in public places, that should be banned.  Especially on the coast here I saw someone fly a drone out over seals trying to hide out on the rocks.  It's horrible.

I thought of them as loud and annoying.. but this particular one was pretty quiet, once it got up a few hundred ft. And, nearly all the uses I have for one will involve staying up high.

I figure the impact on wildlife is relative; is it being used as a toy, or a tool that replaces some other impact?

I think it is pretty possible that sending a drone to look at something will be less intrusive than me going out on foot to check it; I am loud, to avoid surprising a bear..

I literally don't know anybody else in my region who doesn't own an atv for those quick checks.. WAY more distruptive than a drone!


I see a lot of really cringey wildlife videos shot by amateur drone people. The cameras are pretty good, there is no excuse for sending your drone near the wildlife. IMO, if the animals show any signs of noticing the drone, the pilot has fucked up.


Here, the wildlife have had to become accustomed to fuckwits in airplanes and choppers.. in theory those assholes are supposed to stay above 1000/500ft, but a chopper at 500ft is loud as fuck, literally earthshaking for some of them, many orders of magnitude worse than a drone. And in practice, I have had both planes and choppers at treetop height more than once.

There is no need for permitting of very small drones under 500ft here. Maybe if more drones were in the air the goddamn planes would fuck off to their designated altitude.. which is still waaay too low..

Mike Haasl wrote:Good ideas Glenn!  I wonder if just using a post and a floor jack or car jack would be easier.  Since the ground is likely a different height at different points?  Plus you can easily lift it up a bit more or drop it a bit if needed.  I guess it depends on what's available.

A tall post plus a jack can be pretty unstable; pounding in an angled post, there is no middle joint for the angle to go bad on you..

If I wanted to use a jack and needed it to be tall, and didn't have a screw jack of appropriate height, I might try a post and a hi-lift style jack, the taller the better; notch the post bottom to hug the lifting tooth of the hi-lift, and then bolt of strap the top of the hi-lift shaft to the post.. seems like you would get a much more rigid assembly than amost other jack/post combos I can visualize..

But pounding in a post has worked well for me, albeit with beams that didn't wooble so much. I Jam the bottom in at the ground and pound at the top, usually.

If you used something narrower then the beam, yoou could add your additional beam beneath the existing one instead of beside..

I like the gabion idea..

I've got 4 300w panels on a cedar rack that is bolted to maybe 1800lbs of scrap steel that used to be part of a semi trailer... probably more sheltered than you, but it's sure never budged, just sitting on the ground.

Wow... As already stated above... you can add the posts and the foundations to the list of wrongly done things. Truly amazing. Just.. why? Was this whole building an elaborate practical joke?

Aside from water, I would worry about rats. Tarped piles of stuff could get pretty gross pretty quick. Add a few holes chewed in the tarps and it's not great..

Jay Angler wrote:1. The problem with going to smaller sheds, is that 10'x10' is usually the max for no permit. I've worked with a lot of small spaces and would much rather have something you can move around in without feeling like you have to move 10 things to get at 1 thing.

2. If the current building was grandfathered, so long as you keep a sizable chunk of it, you won't have to worry about dealing with officials. There does look like there's some decent wood in it, so I think you need to give us some measurements to help you out better.
2a) what is the distance between the studs (vertical 2x4's ) on the wall at the  back of the photo?
2b) what is the distance between the studs (vertical 2x4's ) on the back wall - left - in the photo? They look further apart to me.
2c) what is the foot print and the spans between the posts?

3. For example, most buildings use studs on 16" centers. The left wall in the photo looks skimpier than that.

4. You're in earth-quake country, so if the walls and posts aren't fastened to the footings, that needs to be done right off. Similarly, Simpson strong ties need to be added to hold the roof on - if not in every location, in "enough" places that it can ride through at least the smaller quakes.

5. I agree with Mike:

new "glue lam beam" or a 2x12

I know here on permies we like to be as environmental as possible, but a building that rots or collapses looses all it's embodied energy, so if you have to compromise to get a useful, long lasting building, I would support that.

6. You need a budget - you need to estimate what you *need* to fix the Fally Down Building, and I'm tempted to say "double it".  A half done project will be no help at all - so you don't want to run out of money at a critical point when you discover a "fixable problem". (Left-over money could go towards the eventual house reno)

7. If you managed to fix that building this summer, you would have a safe place to store needed materials/equipment etc that are in your current garage. Yes, you want a family room in the house, but if that takes you another year or two to get there, you've got some time. You'll also be practicing a bunch of your building skills on the out building, which will (hopefully) make you more confident about the house reno.

8. You're not a dumb person - you just aren't educated in an area you may need to work on. Maybe your son will help you practice the words on the diagrams I've attached below? Demonstrating to your kids the need for life-long learning is a good thing in my opinion - make it this week's spelling test? Use your computer to remove the names so you have to fill them back in?  And lots of 8 yr olds can learn to use a hammer!

Great points.

I am afraid that I looked at that fally down building and decided that permits could safely be disregarded. If permits are required and likely to be enforced... this is a strong argument for fixing the fally down building.

Either way you go with this, building things yourself is fantastic learning for all, and leaves you with skills as well. Way better than paying for an expensive pole barn or a cheap but basically disposable tarp-carport-thing.

Personally, I don't think reroofing without major structural improvements is remotely reasonable. The metal will weigh more, and the flexing, bowing structure will cause it to leak at the screws. Then you have put a lot of money and time into steel roofing on a structure that is still not actually reliable or likely to last the way it ought to...

Structurally the beams are definitely the worst part, but the rafters ought to be rotated vertical as well, as pretty much everyone has said. By the time you have stripped the roofing, strapping and rafters it will be much easier to fix the beams... but at that point the walls and posts are about the only thing left of the building...

It is doable, and it would be a real shame not to either fix it or salvage it... but I still think the small shed idea is more practical for novice builders with modest assistance, budget, and time...

I don't know anything about beech.

Our bigleaf maple rots pretty fast. Blackcherry less so but no knowledge of it for construction...

Spruce and hemlock are commonly used in conventional construction; they are not rot resistant. Balsam I think sometimes is used in the same SPF blanket designation.

So, all three would be OK if kept thoroughly dry. Rot resistance may vary, your spruce is probably a different type than ours...


Finding someone with more local knowledge would be wise, I suspect you are a continent width away...

Oh my gosh. The fally down building is hilarious, what an incredible chucklehead somebody was.

I am not sure if I would try to save it, it is so wrong. You could prop up those 'beams', with some more posts, as a quick patch.. But, if you are not going to fix it quite a lot, in my opinion it would be best to salvage the wood before it rots from the leaks. Disassemble in place, or remove the roofing and pull it over with someone else's truck to salvage on the ground...



Building a stick-framed shed is really easy. Unskilled helpers and one person with experience should be able to make quick work of a shed large enough to store a lot of your stuff while you work in the garage, and be useful for decades.

Get your father to sketch it out, and show you how to frame the floor and walls on the ground. Copy this start until you have the pieces, then get him to show you how to lift and assemble, install ply, etc. Use screws, you get multiple chances that way!

Lumber is pretty cheap again now. I am not sure that will last, and everything else is going up fast. Up to you whether you buy lumber for the shed, or wait til you have done the salvaging of the fally down building...

You have most of the lumber in the fally down building to make a good big storage shed, and a good woodshed; you'll need new roofing, probably some thicker plywood for floor and roof, and something to get the storage shed off the ground; cement shed blocks plus 6x6 skids under it is my usual choice, but some people do one or the other.

A shed with a raised wood floor and a plywood deck under steel roofing will be way drier than a dirt floor with strapping under steel roof. A pallet floor and strapping is fine for the woodshed , though, imo.

I would suggest a wideish shed, so if you want it bigger you can add on to the end and just keep going. But let your father decide how wide the rafters can span.. use rafter ties, show us the sketch if you are worried.

Use some of your wealth of salvaged lumber to build awesome shelving in the new shed. You can store a LOT of stuff in say a 10x12 space with deep shelves to the ceiling.


The fally down building is just not very useful in current form IMO; it's not reliable/safe, it doesnt keep things actually dry, it won't last long while leaking, it is taking up land that could be better used for better buildings, and it requires notably more experience and money to fix than a couple of smaller much more solid sheds.



Can you put a roof-rack on a non-truck vehicle you already own? Might not get you huge amounts of lumber, but the ability to grab a few 2x4s at a time is something, at least. I've seen a fair bit of lumber atop suvs using a 'rack' of 2x4s bolted through the  roof, and several sheets of 3/4 ply atop a steel rack on a 2-door suzuki samurai... if you think outside the box and aren't attached to resale value there are possibilities.. ratchet straps are key to safely securing cargo up there.

Ashley Cottonwood wrote:My husband is learning to use his drone in order to map elevation, do 3D modelling, slope analysis for solar potential, analysis for water run off/water capture analysis.

Cool! That is definitely a level up from what I have envisioned; do you have a thread about this, or details to share?

D Nikolls wrote:I resisted buying a drone for years, seemed frivolous despite seeing plenty of tempting footage online.

An acquaintance brought one over a month ago, and I am 100% sold. Way better visibility through trees than I had expected, in winter. Absolutely going to be worth the price, on a large property.

I should be more specific...

I am thinking of properties in the 100+ acre size.

The uses that immediately came to mind once I saw the actual capabilities of a small cheapish (DJI mini) drone were..

1) Locating old roads and skidder trails from above, way more visible than I would have guessed.

2) Checking on things like fencelines, water levels/flooding, downed trees, especially when access is time consuming..

3) Locating trespassers, like when there is 3ft of snow and you are wondering if that noise over yonder is some jackass snowmobiling on your land.

4) High rez mapping/planning/layout/progress documentation.

I resisted buying a drone for years, seemed frivolous despite seeing plenty of tempting footage online.

An acquaintance brought one over a month ago, and I am 100% sold. Way better visibility through trees yhan I had expected, in winter. Absolutely going to be worth the price, on a large property.

So..

1) Does it need to be hydraulic pressure, or could your idea work with air instead? Stored air is more useful on a homestead, and less polluty.. still dangerous and cumbersome though.


2) It seems like converting to electricity asap is key.. so, an accumulator that is just big enough for a very modest generator/alternator, and aim to let it keep spinning all the time that the gizmo is gizmoing?


3) I agree with the stated worry that inefficiences will make this a non-starter.. but a bit of thought can't hurt...

Marc Dube wrote:It a 12 volt system. I think it would still produce with less pressure it needs the volume for the pump though.

I can play with the system tomorrow to see at what the minimum pressure of the system is. I don't know if there is still a flow meter around if there is I can take a volume measurement too.

Do you know the displacement of the hydraulic motor? It would be interesting to see if the math in my links is matching up..

Have you played with loads on the alternator?

Mike Haasl wrote:

D Nikolls wrote:
So, if you had 95 gallons of fluid and wanted 5 mins of runtime, at 1800rpm, you can allow flow of 19gpm, giving a displacement of 2.439ci.

Take the min allowable psi and the cubic inches, and you get a torque of 582 in-lbs, which is on the scale of a small cordless drill.

Thanks D!  How did you get from 2.439 in3 and 1000psi and end up with 582 in-lbs?  Or were you using a lower minimum psi?

I'm also not experienced with hydraulics but it sure seems like 95 gallons of pressurized fluid would run the equivalent of a cordless drill for a lot longer than 5 minutes.  I don't know if there's a boo boo with your math but that seems quite low...

I used 1500psi as a lower bound, and used the third calculator in my 2nd link..

The torque is equivalent, if the math is right. This doesn't say anything much about the horsepower/wattage...

Jack Edmondson wrote:

Mike Haasl wrote:

My first issue is that I'm not very familiar with hydraulics and pressure tanks.  I'm having trouble figuring out if they actually make large pressure tanks, what they would cost and how much energy they can store.

My second issue is that I'm assuming they make hydraulic motors that are coupled to an electric generator.  Is that actually a thing or would we have to cobble those two pieces together.

Anyone have some hydraulic experience to lend to this problem?  Let's invent something cool!

They make large pressure tanks.  Think rural LPG tanks.  They cost about $1/gallon (size) for used tanks.  I believe they are rated fairly high for pressure, say above 500psi You might be better served by a fas cylinder like they use for welding or a scuba tank.  

Unfortunately typical pressures for an LPG tank and a hydraulic system are about an order of magnitude apart... and you need a working gas to be compressed, hence the piston or bladder arrangements..

Although I do not know the details of why you can't just have half the tank or so full of gas and half fluid... I feel like it would commonly be done that way if there was no issue..

Don't really have any pertinent experience, but.. thoughts anyhow!

First gotcha on the tanks is that a nominal xxx gallon tank wonn't hold that much pressurized fluid, because either a bladder or piston plus associated air uses some of the volume.

Secondly, there will be a lower pressure limit where the motor won't spin..

Thirdly, I am guessing that it will be most practical to have the motor/generator speed regulated so that you get nice smoothish power... so, that will raise the minimum pressure limit.

Here is some math for calculating available flow from an accumulator:

https://www.qualityhydraulics.com/blog/accumulators/hydraulic-accumulator-sizing


300in3 at min 1500psi needs a 3.9 gallon tank per the example in an isothermic application. This is basically 1.3 gallons. So, for these particular pressure needs the ratio seems to be usable volune about 1/3rd nominal tank size.

So a 285 gallon nominal cylinder like the one found above might store something like 95 gallons usable fluid.


Here is some math for determining hydraulic motor flow rate based on size and rpm; very simple. Also for determining torque.

 https://www.womackmachine.com/engineering-toolbox/formulas-and-calculations/hydraulic-motor-calculations/


So, if you had 95 gallons of fluid and wanted 5 mins of runtime, at 1800rpm, you can allow flow of 19gpm, giving a displacement of 2.439ci.


Take the min allowable psi and the cubic inches, and you get a torque of 582 in-lbs, which is on the scale of a small cordless drill.


Ok, next person can take that torque and rpm and figure out what sort of alternator we can spin with it.. assuming my uninformed math isn't leading us astray...

T-post and pipes will both come out with much less effort than 2ft of concrete. T-post can get stuck in rocky ground and end up bending on removal, but usually it's fine. A jackall and a bit of chain or cable will be a great help pulling tposts..

Or, if you have a machine with a loader, drill a hole in the top so you can pull it with a cable on the loader.

Where I want a post long term but need to be able to remove it from time to time, I drive a couple feet of pipe into the ground, and use it as a socket for a post of slightly smaller pipe..

Snot. Sorry to hear that.

Have you considered whether you should try to contact Trace it?

At least you are undeniably starting 2022 on a positive note...

Hope it is mild and short.

Jeffrey Ross wrote:Thanks for your comments and solutions. My goal is not to save money on the system cost, it is to be able to continue living normally for long periods of power outages. We are at 3,800' elevation and occasional storms may drop 3'± of snow and disrupt grid power for weeks (from tress falling on power lines). A lot of neighbors complain that their generators eat through their propane reserves and the propane company can't keep up with the demand. So if I only run the propane-powered generator to recharge batteries and then shut it down I believe I would be able to run much longer (assuming that I avoid consumptive behaviors). Main uses for power during an outage would be for the well pump, the propane heater fan, and a few LED lights. The drawing shows "DC" which is the disconnect to the power company so my system won't back-feed to the grid.    

That is a pretty short list of loads, a good fit for your described plan. You're right that you should get many more days from your propane; if the generator only consumed propane to output power, the conversion losses would get you, but of course it is going to use fuel the entire time it runs, even when only putting out 10w.

An extra large pressure tank can help shift the load of pumping water to when the generator is on.

Michael Qulek wrote:

D Nikolls wrote:
An important upside of either movable arrays or multiple differently angled arrays, is that a day with 2h of late or early sun can give a LOT more juice if a few panels are aimed right. For max annual watts, the sweet spot is south, but my experience off grid has been that a couple extra KWh on an otherwise cloudy day is more useful than 10KWh on a fully sunny day.

Multiple arrays are generally best served by multiple charge controllers. Epever is very affordable; I 'd rather run something higher quality, IMO it's usually cheaper in the long run.

With my equipment, I have not found that to be true.  One controller handles 6 arrays just fine with a Midnight combiner box.  Each individual string of panels gets it's own breaker so all are electrically protected.

I am what is called "over paneled".  That means my a solar arrays can produce more power than the controller is designed to handle.  I keep some arrays pointed SE, while others are pointed SW.  That keeps the noontime amps within the amp limit of my Midnight controller.  As a fail-safe though, my controller is programmed to clip off at 65A for "just in case".  The extra panels help out on the cloudy days that would shut down other systems.  I can still produce ~600W in the rain, and I've never even come close to depleting my battery bank.

D Nikolls wrote:
Michael, how long have you had your Schneider gear? Have you had to deal with their support people at all? have heard some shitty stuff about them for both support and longevity, but nearly bought one anyhow, the split phase 240v from a single unit was very tempting... I went with Victron, not 100% perfect from a software or support perspective but solid.

I have had no issues running a 3/4HP jet pump for extended periods while irrigating, off 120V from a single 3000VA Multiplus..

The answer is 5 years and two years.  I installed my 48V cabin system in 2016.  That's with a XW+6848 Schneider inverter that puts out split-phase 120/240V.  I liked Schneider so much that I installed a second Conext 4024 in my workshop.  All my equipment as worked flawlessly for this time, so I've never had to call tech support.  Yes though, I hear it's not very good.  It seems that Schneider is focused primarily with large professional installations, and they don't want to be bothered by DIYers

One tool every off-gridder should have is a clamp meter that can read "inrush current".  The one I like now is the Uni-T 216C.  When set to "inrush", it can measure the starting current that a motor-driven appliance draws in the first half-second after turning on.  Your pump is 120V?  Mine is 240V.  The refrigerator is FAR easier to start, with a startup surge of about 500W.  The well-pump has a startup surge of ~8900W.  These are the values I've measured.  Without measuring it, I'd guestimate your pump is drawing 3000-4000W right at startup, then drops down to about 1000W running.

This clamp meter is a bit pricy at 75$, but it has features that cheaper meters don't provide.  A budget meter can only read AC current.  The higher priced ones read both AC and DC current.  Next in the cost scale is inrush, and up at the top is reading RMS current.  I don't think RMS is something an off-gridder is ever going to need though.

The theory is that with different orientations feeding one array, there will(may?) be multiple 'peaks' visible to the controller, and it could lock on to the wrong one, meaning reduced power.

I have also read that shifting sun/shade conditions are more challenging for the controller with differently oriented arrays..

So... in practice does it matter? Don't know for sure!

There isn't a ton of discussion that I have found; there are people stating that they do it, with a quality controller like midnite or victron, and it works fine, but I haven't seen examples where they actually compare the total power generated between a single vs multiple controller config with the same panels. So... would anyone know if they were losing a modest percent of their potential power, without a comparable available?


Completely agree that if you are going to do it, overpanelling is a great fit! (Victron says this is OK too, but definitely something to check before doing it on a given brand/controller..)



I don't like single points of failure, so I will run multiple controllers anyhow. Although, one could make the case for running a single controller with a matcher safely sealed away in a box...


I'm glad your units are holding up well, 5 years is long enough to count for something.


I have the exact same Uni-T meter, but must admit I haven't checked the inrush current on my temporary pump. The Victron units are rated for 6KW startup current... once I finish running the buried 240V lines I will switch to a larger 240V pump, using both Victron units for 12KW max surge rating.

What are you willing to spend?

What is most important to accomplish? Is the primary goal disaster preparedness, convenience for smaller outages, or..?

A LiFePO4 bank is great. Except when it's not... my $6600 400Ah/24V (8.8KWh, ~6KWh usable in ,y conservative config) bank of Sinopoly cells is toast, after 2.5 years, for no known reason.. I have 7x 300w panels feeding it; until the battery went, it was a good system, and had no issue with my Unique brand mini-fridge and assorted modest power tool loads, even in a PNW winter. A full size fridge and freezer would need a lot more battery and panels, in my location.

(Don't buy unique brand products, quality does not justify the price in my experience!)



It is simple to add more solar, by adding more charge controllers. Some brands can synchronize, but this is not critical, especially with LiFePO4


Inverter expansion... Some brands can sync multiple inverters; that's how my twin Victron units are configured, to give 240V. I could add more matching units... But, what if the specific model is discontinued... best to buy a big one or matched set up front, IMO.


Batteries are a huge cost. Fridges and freezers can be a huge load..

If you want a cheaper option, you could consider sizing to just handle the freezer and all other loads, and plan on using frozen bottles to keep the fridge, or a better insulated cooler, down to temp. Less plug and play, but the do-all system is going to be quite a few thousands of dollars, certainly a 5-digit number unless you are ok running a genset pretty often when the grid is down.

There is definitely a reason that off-grid systems of moderate cost tend to have small fridges, and cheap ones have none!



I am a big believer in a redundant set of gear to power minor loads. I can limp along for a long time with enough power to handle charging cellphone, tablet, flashlight/headlamps, and occasionally a power tool battery.. especially in winter where there is free coldness just outside. All these needs can be handled in strictly DC form.. A daily genset run can handle the freezer and water, even if the inverter fails... don't forget to wire in a way that allows an easy reconfigure to bypass the inverter!

Michael Qulek wrote:The first and foremost thing you have to do is to do an itemized audit of what you want to power BEFORE you start buying anything  The single most prevalent place where people fail is that start buying inadequate stuff BEFORE they know what they need.

Things like the frig, freezer, lights, and TV are easy.  Just running those things at my cabin I'm consuming about 2-3 kWh of power each day.  The item that you mention that catches my eye though is the well-pump.  That potentially might be the single biggest power user on your whole place.  Is it doable, sure.  I"ve run my well-pump exclusively on solar for years now.

First, is your well-pump AC powered?  Is it 120VAC or 240VAC?  Do you know the running and starting wattage?  There might be a placard displaying all this information, or you might have to determine it yourself.  I myself had to take the latter route.  I bought a "clamp meter" that has the capability to read "inrush current".  I now have two, a very expensive Fluke 274, and a cheaper Uni-T 216C.  Both can read inrush, and both are accurate to within 1% of each other.  With the inrush meter I found that while my pump needs 2230W to run, it needs about 8930W for 1-2 seconds to start.

How is your well-pump controlled?  Does it come on any time of the day and fill a bladder tank, or does it run continuously when you turn on a tap.  Does it fill an elevated tank and then shut off?

I myself have an elevated tank which gets filled during the day when I have solar, and then flows downhill at night when the power is off.  Before installing the solar system I used a generator to power the pump.

How your pump provides your water will be critical to plan a solar system that can power your pump.  The least expensive strategy might be to build the smaller system, but power the pump via generator only, but that will depend on how the pump is controlled.

Let's put together two suggested systems based on whether or not you need to run your pump.

24V System 1 can provide 4-8 kWh of power per day

6 250W grid-tie panels, wired in 3S2P (cheap on Craigslist right now.  Buy locally instead of mail order; it will be far cheaper)  75$ X 6 = 450$
4 6V Trojan L-16 lead-acid batteries  350$ X 4 = 1400$
60A Epever Tracer 6415AN charge controller  (I have the higher quality Midnight 200V controller)  270$  Midnight is ~670$
24V Sine-wave inverter  Samlex 24V 2000W for about 650$  Schneider 24V Conext 4024 4000W for1500$.  The Samlex is a cheaper high-frequency inverter with little inrush capability.  The Conext is a low-frequency split-phase 120VAC/240VAC sine-wave inverter with a built in generator charging circuit.  I have the Conext for my workshop and that is what I would recommend.

48V System 2 can provide 8-16kWh off power per day with 12 panels, or 14-23kWh with 18 panels.

12-18  250W grid-tie panels, wired in 3S2P (cheap on Craigslist right now.  Buy locally instead of mail order; it will be far cheaper)  75$ X 12 = 900$
8 6V Trojan L-16 lead-acid batteries  350$ X 8 = 2800$; 18 panels = 1350$
60A Epever Tracer 6415AN charge controller 270$;  100A Epever Tracer 6415AN charge controller 570$  (I have the higher quality Midnight 200V controller) Midnight is ~670$
48V Sine-wave inverter Schneider XW-Pro 6848 sine-wave inverter. The XW is a low-frequency split-phase 120VAC/240VAC sine-wave inverter that can surge to 12000W for 60 seconds.  It has a built in generator charging circuit.

What you might want to do besides placing panels on your roof is to build ground mounts like I have.  These single pole mounts can be rotated left to right to catch more early morning and late afternoon sun.  By rotating east to west, I can run my 240VAC well pump from 8am to 4pm with zero battery drain.

The last thing will be breakers, power boxes, and switches, that can add up to several hundred dollars.  I have a power center with all the breakers to control the both the DC and AC side of things.  

Instead of powering just a few circuits, you can also get a transfer switch or either/or breaker panel to wire the solar system directly into you house panel.  Then your power becomes transparent.  There MUST be a control that prevents your power from ever going into the grid during a blackout.  Lineman's lives are threatened if you energize a circuit they think is dead.  It might be best to have a professional electrician do this for you, because lives are at stake here.

Good post.

An important upside of either movable arrays or multiple differently angled arrays, is that a day with 2h of late or early sun can give a LOT more juice if a few panels are aimed right. For max annual watts, the sweet spot is south, but my experience off grid has been that a couple extra KWh on an otherwise cloudy day is more useful than 10KWh on a fully sunny day.


Multiple arrays are generally best served by multiple charge controllers. Epever is very affordable; I 'd rather run something higher quality, IMO it's usually cheaper in the long run.


I think the pump is no problem compared to the fridge and freezer, myself. These will need a hefty battery bank to weather dark days, and a hefty solar array to get that bank charged quickly when the winter sun appears.


I like the idea of dedicated circuits; I would do it with an inverter that can pass through AC power and switch to battery if there js a power outage. A Victron Quattro has 2 AC inouts and as I understand it should allow for a config where everything on the connected circuits runs on solar until the batteries are down to say 80%, then it will switch to grid power. If grid goes down it will switch to battery power, and it can then turn on a generator and charge the batteries if batteries fall to yy%.

They are not the easiest to set up, and Victron expects your dealer to be your tech support, so if you go with Victron choose your dealer with care.



Michael, how long have you had your Schneider gear? Have you had to deal with their support people at all? have heard some shitty stuff about them for both support and longevity, but nearly bought one anyhow, the split phase 240v from a single unit was very tempting... I went with Victron, not 100% perfect from a software or support perspective but solid.

I have had no issues running a 3/4HP jet pump for extended periods while irrigating, off 120V from a single 3000VA Multiplus..

Mike Haasl wrote:Thanks for those excellent options Michael!  

To elaborate on the pump a bit, it's a shallow sand point well.  It's on 120V and I have a note that it's 1080W (I'm not at home at the moment so I can't look at the nameplate right now).  It fills a 5 gallon pressure tank and kicks on and off automatically based on the pressure in the tank.  When it kicks on it runs for 70 seconds, pumps 5 gallons and uses 0.021kwh (per an experiment where I watched the meter spin as the pump ran).

I don't have any elevation to work with so I'd have to use some sort of timer and a large pressure tank to allow it to not run at night.

When I get home I'll get more pump nameplate info and plug the Kill-a-watt into the freezer to check its consumption.

I am curious, is it on such a small pressure tank because the well only holds a small amount of water? Or some other reason?

Something seen somewhat often in off-grid setups is a large pressure tank or bank of tanks, allowing a bunch pump runtime done in daylight to carry through at least one night if not longer. Less wear on the pump, too. Ought to be a wee bit less energy used to run pump for 700 seconds than 10x70 seconds... works nice with a genset, too, in a pinch..

Mike Barkley wrote:

It gets down to -30F here so I suspect batteries would need to live in the house.

Since your primary need is not in the house I would consider putting the batteries in a small temp controlled insulated enclosure in the barn near the panels. It will use some electricity to keep them warm in winter but without doing any math yet I'd be willing to estimate it will be less loss than running long wires (AC or DC) into the house.  

All the loads listed are in the house? You'd need to put the inverter/s in the barn too, and then run AC wires to the house. I see no advantage at all, myself...

Annie Hope wrote:Hi,  This is taking this post in a slight tangent.  I already have 8 acres divided into 10 paddocks.   We have just reaching the longest day in New Zealand, and I have a few months of pasture in well fenced back paddocks even if a sudden draught was to start, and so far we have had enough summer rain to make the water table flood.    At the front paddock where a car went through the front fence and a tree fell on the side fence (so not about to put the animals in there in a hurry) is heaps of long grass in seed.  

I can understand using rotational grazing to avoid buying hay, but if there is excess grass standing there from Spring excess, does it not make sense to hand cut it and get regrowth for winter, plus a store of hay, rather than to leave it till winter?   Our winters go to -3 overnight, so we have frost that melts by mid-morning at times, but never enough to kill the grass totally.

I would bet you would come out ahead either harvesting hay or just mowing for mulch, vs letting it stand.. but would be interesting to compare patches handled each way!