Hi. Is it possible to recirculate hot water from the top of the tank to the bottom of the tank without a pump. If I run a pipe from the top of the tank to the bottom would this recirculate the hot water to the bottom of the tank due to pressure or thermosiphon?
I'm trying to heat the water in the bottom of the tank where I have a loop for the ufh. Unfortunately the heated water goes to the top of the tank as heat rises. If I could only recirculate the hot water at the top of the tank to the bottom without a pump.
John C Daley wrote:50 tons may be the weight of the tank, but not its volume.
The best way to settle and clean water us to have a large tank.
Filters etc are not needed if the tank is big.
350mm is low rainfall, how big is your family?
I would think about having thefirst flush be captured in another tank to be used in an orderly manner, with such low rainfall.
Sorry I meant 50 metric tonnes which is 50 m3. We have 4 occupants currently.
John C Daley wrote:Where did the 80 L figure come from ?
Do you have lots of dust, trees, bird poo?
Some diverts have spirals or cyclones so less water is dumped.
0.5 liters per sqm. We have alot of dust around here because of tractors. I thought I'd have to clean the top layer at least before it enters the tank. I think I have solved the problem, I'm going to replace the 4 inch downpipe with a 6 inch which should give me 90 liters of storage. I will use that in the garden. The question is, how much filtering do I need to use the remaining water to take showers and wash dishes?
My roof area is 150 m2. So this means I would need about 80 liters first flush. My downpipe from the roof is 4 inch diameter and 5.7 meters long and the volume is 45 liters. How can I double my first flush? I don't have space for another pipe next to it.
Thank you for all your kind replies. We have already built an underground concrete tank which has a capacity of 50 tons (50000 liters). We have around 140 sqm roof space which we will use to collects the water.
There will be a first flush system in the form of a T pipe where the first flush side ( a 6 meter long 4 inch pipe) will fill and then carry on to a 2000 liter water tank which will be filled from the bottom up. Only the water that reaches the top will continue on to the main 50 ton tank.
Now I'm not sure how to treat the water in our main tank. The main tank will be connected to our home for showers, washing dishes etc. Everything other than drinking. Drinking water will be filtered with reverse osmosis.
Should I put chlorine in the main 50 ton tank to make it safe?
How should I design the first filter? Should I put a ball in the pipe so it can block of the pipe going down so when it fills it can continue to the other 2 ton tank?
Looking to build a wood fired water heater outside to heat hot water for hydronic heating and domestic use. What is the most efficient way to do this. It would be great if I could fill it up with at least 30 kg of wood and let it burn. Also if possible a short flue run so I don't have to make a long chimney for it. It would have to be over 10 meters long to clear the house. I don't mind running a small fan but preferably no electric consumption because we are off grid and have limited energy in the winter.
Yes you will need p traps and vents, unless you want your plumbing venting into your house. Even if your pipes are draing somewhere uncontained, those grey water pipes will still smell, and the p trap stops the smell from just wafting up into your house every time you run the water. The vents give the air in the pipes a place to go, besides bubbling up through your p trap, when you introduce water into the system which causes pressure differenc. You won't have as much pressure from introducing water with your open system, but in your case with the outflow end sitting open to the air, just the wind blowing could cause a pressure difference in your system that could bubble smelly up through the p traps without the proper venting. So I would recomend using both p traps and vents if possible. Pluse p traps will help keep vermin out of your house. Since Im sure you don't want bugs or rats crawling up through there, with your outflow just sitting open outside.
Hope that helps!
Thank you for your kind reply.
The vent pipe has to be higher than the house, is that correct?
Would a screen stop the vermin and bugs? I saw this in Art Ludwigs book.
DO you think there would be smell? As the greywater pipe is only 5 meters?
Doug Kalmer wrote:I have built several masonry tanks, both above and below ground. They can and will leak unless waterproofed inside. This is the best product I have found, and it is rated for potable water- http://www.drylok.com/products/drylok-extreme-masonry-waterproofer.php I have slipformed tanks, used CMUs, and helped plaster a tank built with just wire and cement plaster, Doug
How you doing?
Drylok sounds amazing. Although we dont have it here in Cyprus. Also would you be concerned about pollution using a product like Drylok?
Glenn Herbert wrote:As long as it is strong enough to keep from cracking, it will probably be waterproof enough. I would consider what any waterproofing coating would do to the water quality.
Makes sense, thanks.
Also what do you think of the initial sediment? I was thinking I could seperate the tank into two. Like seperate 5% for initial flow and then the rest would be the overflow from there. And an easy access hatch to clean the 5% part of sediment once every couple of years. I'm in Cyprus.
James Freyr wrote:What the chap at the nursery did is a common pruning technique, and it looks horrendous when it's done. It should grow several new leaders at the top, and next year or this fall the largest and best looking leader should remain and the other 1 or 2 be pruned off. All the lower nubbins will grow scaffold branches. You should water those trees if you're not getting regular rain. Those roots haven't grown much and are still localized and can dry out the soil they're in contact with relatively fast. The last thing you want to do to those transplants is stress them even more with lack of water, they've had enough stress.
It seems the ones that weren't pruned are growing better. How much water would you say they need in liters?
I recently got some fig trees in February. They were in the ground at the nursery and they were chainsaw ed out of the ground and given to me bare root. Yes chainsawed, because they were impossible to dig out apparently. The trees were grown from sticks and had been in the ground for about a year.
The chap at the nursery who was an agricultural engineer said I should cut them at waist height. He took one of the trees and carried out the horrific ordeal before I could intervene. I don't believe in chopping trees you see. I though maybe I'm wrong so I planted it anyway.
I took pictures of the cut tree I planted and the intact tree to show you their progress. These two trees are side by side. I have never watered them even after planting.
This is our first year on the land. I've attached a picture of what the land looked like last summer.
We did not own it then. The soil had deep cracks in it and looked completely lifeless. All this because of overgrazing and over tilling. So I too believe in the natural way but, maybe if we didn't build the swales (which took us over a months work) then the land may not have been able to retain as much moisture. So maybe human interaction with nature (as we are a part of nature), in a carefully planned minnimal way, is ok.
İ just want to help the land recover from its previous state. I have not yet seen how the land will do if we leave it to its own. So I may just flail mow it partially as an experiment. All in all I'm pretty happy that the native grass is back and nature is recovering and healing.
I'm not sure about live stock as they are partially responsible for its previous state. I do see the logic in the way that they break down plants and poop them out with beneficial bacteria. I also read that their hoofs help plant germination and moisture retention. So I will also consider this option.
Casie Becker wrote:In my experience, long grass doesn't 'self flail' in the wind. If left standing it dries out and provides very little (if any) protection to the soil drying out in wind and baking in sun. If the wind is strong enough to break the grass it is also strong enough to carry it entirely out of the area. This may be different in an area that supports very dense growth, but if anything, that picture looks like the grass is sparser than what I work with.
This is exactly what happened last summer. They did not self flail, just standing there and the soil was really dry and cracked.
My overall goal is to improve my soil and land as a whole. So maybe it's best to flail it with a mower when seeds are ready so they can self sow.
Yes I guess you could make compost, but it's a 4 acre field. Wouldn't it be too much work? Also would it not leave the land bare if I collected all the grass and put it in a pile? Would it not be better to leave it on the ground as mulch for moisture retention?
Yes we have noticed the grass (which we did not plant) is growing much more vigorously in our land than the surrounding wheat crop which is fertilized chemically. This must be due to the swales slowing and soaking the water into the land. It will be interesting to see ( what I believe is oats ) if the grass will reseed itself and grow next year.
I'm trying to decide what to do with all this grass crop. We have a flail mower, so I'm thinking of mowing the grass down as mulch or maybe just leaving it. Maybe get a couple of pygmy goats and use it to feed them.
I've added a picture of the grass which I think is oats. Also a picture of the blackberry we planted on the swale. We put a wood pallet over it for support, wind protection and a bit of shade.
The 2nd photo above is of when we first planted our apricot trees. The swales do work well, but we need alot of rain to fill them. Otherwise I think they turned out good.
Here's a photo of them when they had water in them. You can also see the river running in the background. So far it has only ran once for around 4 hours. But does it run. We hope to build an earth dam to hold some of that water.