Well I now have my battery for my temp logger. This morning I dug the barrel out of the ground, dug down another 8 inches. The bottom of the barrel was dry, I remove the trash bag and replaced with shrink wrap they use for pallets on top. Data logger should be running, I did a test run with it before and it worked. I sealed it all up and put a foot of dirt on top. I am curious to see in a couple months how this affects the results. I am glad to have it now at the depth I want, thought it did take some effort to get there. Fishing things out now will be more problematic but, we are getting there.
Rebecca Norman wrote:Condensation can come from within. It's because warm air can hold more moisture. When it cools it can no longer hold as much moisture so the excess water vapor condenses into liquid water.
Yes it creates a mini water cycle....
I did consider using a dehumidifier with a tent over the barrel to lower that humidity, not sure if it is worth that effort, I will give it time and watch.
I have a prototype sand battery I am testing for a hot-air heater.
Using a stovetop element and connecting directly to my test 250W panel, in early spring, it easily gets to 500C inside a couple of hours. I have had it over 750C in summer.
PEX will not handle such temps.
This week I am upgrading to a 44 Gal drum with a 3000W element, and hopefully, a pair of new ~400W panels. I've ordered three new k-type thermocouples so I can measure the data properly (safe up to 1250C).
The element is inside a sand-filled 60L steel drum, sitting on a couple of bricks inside the 44 Gal drum, also filled with sand. 50mm tubes go through the sand outside the 60L drum through which air flows and is collected into ducting and piped up to a grate in the floor above.
For water transfer, you really need a copper or steel coil. Copper is good up to 1050C, steel to 1700C. I would use an intermediate heat-exchanger rather than use the heated water directly. Something like a coil in the sand with mineral oil or waste oil, into a tank which is plumbed with PEX. That way, you are never exceeding 100C in water.
Kool....
Thank you for sharing your test results...
I have used over 1200 watts of power in a 2 gal pail I had temps over 1000 F. I put a dry leaf on the hot sand it and it instantly combusted.
I am now planning on rebuilding my setup without the pex in a trash can. The trash can will be inside a 55 gal barrel, then I may put that inside a 255 gal IBC cage filled with foam....
And idea I have had recently is instead of using a heating element to heat the sand, using a mini split to heat as it is by far more efficient for watts in to heat out.
Another idea I had was to build a cob oven with 3 inches of clay over the fire brick, then put 1 foot of sand, then a layer of chicken wire, then finish with cob.....
I have a friend that built a sand cob oven and was thinking why not do the same only using cob as the outer layer......
Bryan Elliott wrote:Mart,
You mentioned the contents of the barrel are staying at 80 degrees. What part of the world is this experiment taking place at?
....
If I were doing this, I would dig the hole as deep as possible, hopefully at least 3 feet deeper than the top of the barrel. After I put the lid on the barrel and a trash bag over it, rather than covering with sand or soil, I would put a trash bag, or bags, full of leaves or something like that for insulation. If you had small loops of rope tied around your bags of food, you could reach in and pull them out with a broom handle or the like that had a metal hook screwed into the end.
If digging that deep is too hard, you could build some sort of enclosure around the barrel above the surface and fill that with the leaf bags.
Yeah... I have been looking at different options.....
For storage of grain in vacuum sealed bags the temp readings I am getting at the hotest time of the year being 80 degrees I am happy with.
When my batteries for my old usb thermometer get here I plan on going down to 1 food deep instead of the 3 inches they are now.
Yes I have put a trash bag over the closed barrel after it is closed we think alike :-)
Since I am considering doing 10 barrels I had an idea of digging a trench using my electric roto tiller and shovel out after each time I dig deeper and till...
Another idea I had was to use an engine block hoist to remove the barrels out of the ground........
Yes berming up around the barrels is another good idea.....
At present the temps are going from 77 deg to 79 deg very constant. I like that.
William Bronson wrote:Cool experiment!
For what it's worth, my experience as an electrician and plumber makes me think that condensation in a sealed container is inevitable.
I would want a drain, maybe with a check valve.
Speaking of which, I wonder if you could pull a vacuum on the entire barrel?
That would reduced the possible condensation and reduce possible growth of most pests and pestilence.
As I thought about this more, I thought about using a vacuum cleaner with a trash bag for like 4 of my sealed bags, then tying some light duty rope to the top of the trash bag and letting it down into the barrel.
Another idea is to take make a custom lid so that I could pump in nitrogen or c02 to display the air in the tank then with a valve have it close when I pump the standard air out.
Yet another idea is to put in dry ice and let the co2 build up over time then close the lid....
Bryan Elliott wrote:Mart,
You mentioned the contents of the barrel are staying at 80 degrees. What part of the world is this experiment taking place at?
This is in Florida..
Do note....
1) this is the hottest part of the year temps reach around 95 + this time of year so this temp is not bad.
2) for me to have the thermometer in the barrel there is a small gap with the lid so it is not properly sealed.
3) there is only 3 inches of sand on top of this. I am planning to go 1 foot deeper with this, which means I will need to do more planning on how I will get my food out of the barrel ;-)
Angela Wilcox wrote:Here’s a thought… perlite for absorbing moisture. Put perlite in the barrel first, vacuumed sealed goods inside the contractor bag, now bag goes on top of perlite, pour perlite in to surround the contractor bag on all sides and top.
Seal barrel, plastic in top. Though from my experience, condensate forms under the plastic.
Best wishes!
Yeah I was thinking take sand and put into my rocket oven and super dry it, then put an inch of this in the bottom of the barrel then a sheet of plastic, then the rest.
I like your idea of Perlite, but the cost of doing 10 barrels may be $$$$.. but the idea of driving out air for perlite could work.
Another idea.... what if I was to take an air compressor that had a water filter and use air blown from that to replace the air in the barrel, then seal it. I did consider using nitrogen to push out standard air from the barrel then seal as they do in some food operations to force out the oxygen.
bruce Fine wrote:not all barrels are created equal. i have some stuff stored in barrels outside. I recently opened them looking for something and found two of them with severe moisture damage one was 3/4 full of water everything inside ruined. they all have rubber seal lids with clamp rings that hold lid on with big bolt to clamp them shut and the screw in bungs but they are clearly different manufacturers.
on the one filled with water the bungs were screwed in tight but rain must of gone past the threads of the screw in bungs.
Yes. This is why I am putting a trash bag over the top of the barrel before I put it into the ground, I am also packing my goods in trash bags in the barrel.
My plan is to have multiple layers of protection for my food. Once I get this system down I will be only checking these like once a year or so.
Timothy Norton wrote:Would a desiccant be some insurance in the barrel? I know there are silica based packets one can get their hands on but I wonder if a 'natural' material version exists?
Like Bentonite Clay? I'm not sure however how to contain it within the barrel.
I do have silica packets, I re-use them by putting them in the freezer to remove the moisture in them.
Ben Zumeta wrote:Great idea. I have considered doing this with a refrigerator that still has a seal but no longer cools (assuming that means it leaked out its freon). However I do not know how to confirm it actually has leaked it all out already. This seems much simpler. What about charcoal as a moisture absorber?
Charcoal is used in Japan to regulate the humidity in homes, I thought about that as well, probably would want to dry it out....
I had another idea today of getting a dehumidifier and putting it over the barrel with a plastic bag over top, in order to remove the humidity from the barrel before i close the lid ( for long term )...
( and idea I have not tested yet ).
William Bronson wrote:Cool experiment!
For what it's worth, my experience as an electrician and plumber makes me think that condensation in a sealed container is inevitable.
I would want a drain, maybe with a check valve.
Speaking of which, I wonder if you could pull a vacuum on the entire barrel?
That would reduced the possible condensation and reduce possible growth of most pests and pestilence.
The best ideas I have seen so far is to use contractor bags to put the food in so that when the condensation drips it can't get into the food that is in the bag for the most part. Because the food I am putting in will be in vacuum sealed bags there should not be any issues with moisture for the most part.
The container is for the most part will be air tight right now there is a crack in the top as I have a space for the wire to get in, I imagine after I close that it will be even cooler.
I thought about displacing the air in the 55 gal barrel with dry air but until I do my initial test I don't think I am going to freek out about a little water, but now that I have the temp for the hottest days of the year here I think I will pull the thermometer out and do a proper seal on the barrel. then give it like 3 weeks and check back.
I was thinking in line of drying out sand in my rocket oven then filling about 1 inch in the very bottom of the barrel, then putting plastic over top that it would absorb the moisture.
But I get ahead of myself, as of now I am sold on this being food storage as it is cooler than my home which means that the food should last longer here.
I finally stopped talking about it, and I did it… I put underground a 55 gal barrel, and I added a wifi temp monitor so I can now get good data of what the temps are in the barrel. My hope is I can store grain in vacuum sealed food saver bags in this for long term storage. My main concerns is moisture, so I will be checking on this to make sure there is no moisture, from condensation. I put the barrel in the ground, then I put a trash bag over the top for additional moisture barrier, then a top of a 55 gal barrel, then more dirt. I liked the temps information I have seen so far. Just under 80 deg with no covering.
My solution was to buy 1 gal vacuum seal bags off Ebay.
Vacuum seal all the grain in these food saver bags, what this means is you don't need oxygen absorbers, and you don't need to freeze the grain, as bugs don't live long with no air.
Then I put these 1 gal bags into 55 gal barrels which protects against mice, and light.
My next level for this is to bury the 55 gal barrels into the ground so I don't have to keep the food air conditioned or heated. This is still in experiment mode but others have done this with great success.
My solution is to grow feeder gold fish to maturity, then used the finished fish for fertilizer. The native Americans would put a fish under their corn to fertilize them.
The fish water as well can be used to water plants.
At present I feed the fish ground up chicken mash feed, so it is cheap for a bag of non gmo feed.
I am in process of growing cassava which I plan to make into powder to mix with moringa to make my own fish food.
Slowly I am closing in on the loop of getting off the grocery food grid.
John F Dean wrote:Pearl raises a very legit point. Administration is its own area of expertise. Too often, to invent some examples, a nurse, teacher, policeman, etc, will be promoted into an administrative position without adequate training in administration, with a resulting disaster. A decade or so ago a town near me elected a social worker as mayor. While building consensus is nice, sometimes an immediate decision has to be made and orders given.
There is a saying, you are always promoted 1 level above what you are qualified to do because you do all the levels below above that level....
One of my jobs I was in management was given 4 months of training for the new system that was coming online, all the others were given 2 weeks to prepare for the new system. I saw the train wreck coming, and abandoned ship before that happened. I watched in utter horror as the demo of the new system was done before all of management on the big bosses computer. It was at this point the process blew up and failed, I then asked the boss when was the timeline of when this would be implemented, he shrieked at me, when do you think?!?!? I replied, I was only there to take news back to my team as I was gone from the company in 2 weeks and needed to take the info.
You moved up in size on your inverter which may be an issue...
Can you give us a pic of your cables that are going to the battery? If you are going up to 3000 watts if you are at 12V that would require cables that can handle 250 amps of power.
It has been my own experience when I had too thin a cable, or my connections to the battery were loose that the inverter would not work properly.
Chinese inverters typically only give 1/2 to 2/3 the rated amount ( with few exceptions ) has been my experience..
But your Reneogy inverter there is a solid inverter....
I use induction stove to cut down on the amount of battery power I use with my solar system, Very fast, excellent with cast iron cooking.
But in a grid down situation it is worthless unless you plan to run a generator to supply power.
I stock propane tanks and love gas cooking, most useful for keeping warm and cooking, I use it for cloudy wet days when cooking outside on the rocket stove is a bad alternative. Propane keeps for many years with no upkeep, thus excellent for emergency backup.
I like to have many options, I solar cook, use rocket stoves, induction, propane, and do thermal cooking.
I adore induction cook tops as they are cheap, and portable, and gives you many options.
I tend to think in terms of speed, economy of cost, and if all else fails, will it work? But others may have other priorities.
I do 1 drop to a large glass and add stevia to taste.
Another option is stevia and fresh lemon water.
But then again i have a vitamix and I make my own peach milk shakes with 1 can of peaches, fill up to top with ice and 2 tablespoons dehydrated milk and stevia.
It is designed for an electric car so yes, it is not a weak point, but thanks for pointing that out :-)
Ooowe... Pretty!
NIce relay! Once you get confidence in it you use the dry relay from the charge controller to "close on rise" as they say to provide the low voltage trigger to the relay. In line with the trigger voltage is the tank thermostat which is a simple "Open on rise" mechanical switch interupting the signal from the charge controller relay if the temperature gets too high. I'm sure this is all known to you just posting it for clarity for others.
Enjoy the hot showers!
Cheers, David
--------------------------
The water heater is not by the charge controller, but what you said gives me an Idea...
If I understand what you are saying the thermostat does not need electricity itself to run as it is mechanical, Thus...... I could run 2 wires from the thermostat back to the loop that controls the relay so that if it gets too hot the mechanical thermostat will open the circuit that powers the relay and shuts off the operation.
I guess I can test for continuity on the thermostat by turning the thermostat to a low value and heating the tank hotter than that to verify if the thermostat is doing what i would expect it to do.....
I like that safety measure..... thanks for the input.
Christian agrarians are people who have been redeemed by Jesus Christ and seek to live in a way that stewards God’s creation.
It would be a mistake to believe that agrarians are luddites. We are as progressive as it gets because we are counter to current culture first because of our faith that Jesus Christ is Lord and the Son of God and the “way, the truth and the life.” Secondly, we are not luddites because our desire to live more simply in harmony with God’s creation is very futuristic in its perspective in anticipation of possibly future events. Finally, as Christian agrarians, we want to be found doing the things that are pleasing to our Lord while receiving the benefits of His creation as we work in collaboration with it.
We are not preppers, though many preppers are Christian agrarians. We are not permaculturalist, though many Christian agrarians practice permaculture techniques. We are simply people who are trying to live out the truths found in God’s word in some form of agrarian setting or mentality.
I started experimenting with using solar direct to a hot water heater element Connection is simply solar panel then connect to heating element, with a 55 gal barrel of water.
I started with 2 panels then worked up to like 9 panels each 260 watts ratted but give me 220 watts in practice.
After I was comfortable with this, I then want to my present solar system which has over 2000 watts of solar going to an inverter to batteries.
To this system I added a Y connector to both Positive and Neg to the power coming in from my solar panels directly before the charge controller.
Now from here I added an electric car relay so I could control the connection, and ran both positive and neg directly to my hot water heater.
Once my solar charged battery is full around 2 PM each day, I then trigger the relay set on a 2 hour timer to direct power from the panels to the hot water heater element, the 2 hour limit prevents a boil over of the tank, it is manually triggered, I test the temp of the water coming out of the tap before I trigger it so I know it will not over heat.
Heating element is rated at 3800 watts, so I am well within spec.
All this time I could of been using that extra power, I just got brave enough now to try it.
Congrats on the dump load. A few questions and some possible next steps. Any idea if the relay is rated for the string voltage? It would be a likely fail point. Does your charge controller have a dry relay for triggering a fan? Many of them do. Using that voltage trigger is a great way to automatically trigger the switchover. Finally if you do not have ac going to your water heater you can use it's thermostat to cut power to the trigger of the relay to avoid boil over..things to think about
Cheers and congrats!
Yes, my Outback does have a built in relay, but at this point I don't want to imagine the relay being triggered automatically as I imagine a possible boil over.... Using the thermostat to control power to the relay is an option, but I am not sure I trust this relay yet... In times past I have seen relays stick.... I don't like using a mop and a bucket.
I started experimenting with using solar direct to a hot water heater element Connection is simply solar panel then connect to heating element, with a 55 gal barrel of water.
I started with 2 panels then worked up to like 9 panels each 260 watts ratted but give me 220 watts in practice.
After I was comfortable with this, I then want to my present solar system which has over 2000 watts of solar going to an inverter to batteries.
To this system I added a Y connector to both Positive and Neg to the power coming in from my solar panels directly before the charge controller.
Now from here I added an electric car relay so I could control the connection, and ran both positive and neg directly to my hot water heater.
Once my solar charged battery is full around 2 PM each day, I then trigger the relay set on a 2 hour timer to direct power from the panels to the hot water heater element, the 2 hour limit prevents a boil over of the tank, it is manually triggered, I test the temp of the water coming out of the tap before I trigger it so I know it will not over heat.
Heating element is rated at 3800 watts, so I am well within spec.
All this time I could of been using that extra power, I just got brave enough now to try it.
Congrats on the dump load. A few questions and some possible next steps. Any idea if the relay is rated for the string voltage? It would be a likely fail point. Does your charge controller have a dry relay for triggering a fan? Many of them do. Using that voltage trigger is a great way to automatically trigger the switchover. Finally if you do not have ac going to your water heater you can use it's thermostat to cut power to the trigger of the relay to avoid boil over..things to think about
Cheers and congrats!
I started experimenting with using solar direct to a hot water heater element Connection is simply solar panel then connect to heating element, with a 55 gal barrel of water.
I started with 2 panels then worked up to like 9 panels each 260 watts ratted but give me 220 watts in practice.
After I was comfortable with this, I then want to my present solar system which has over 2000 watts of solar going to an inverter to batteries.
To this system I added a Y connector to both Positive and Neg to the power coming in from my solar panels directly before the charge controller.
Now from here I added an electric car relay so I could control the connection, and ran both positive and neg directly to my hot water heater.
Once my solar charged battery is full around 2 PM each day, I then trigger the relay set on a 2 hour timer to direct power from the panels to the hot water heater element, the 2 hour limit prevents a boil over of the tank, it is manually triggered, I test the temp of the water coming out of the tap before I trigger it so I know it will not over heat.
Heating element is rated at 3800 watts, so I am well within spec.
All this time I could of been using that extra power, I just got brave enough now to try it.
At last !!! I now have solar powered hot water that is easy to maintain !!!
I hooked up 160 V of direct DC, direct from my solar panels that I am now using as a dump load to my water heater. After my battery is charged, I have tapped into my solar panels that power my battery, and then divert that power to my water heater.
So much energy I was wasting not having a dump load after my batteries where charged, I have a 43 gal tank that I was not using because I was using propane to heat my water, but now after the batteries are full, I divert the power direct from my solar panels to this tank, I measured over 125 degree water yesterday, and took a nice shower yesterday and today with that hot water, the tank is very well insulated as it only looses like 5 degrees overnight.
This will save me a good deal on propane over time I estimate. It is another step for freedom using energy that I was not using….
I have been doing this for 4 days now, and water is heating up to 120 -135 deg. I love not buying propane!
I was thinking what if a person was to build one of these over a cave, It would seem that one could exchange the air with the cave and not need to run all the pipe to get the temps.....
The only thing I would add is the Chinese green house style where they roll down a blanket at night to hold in the heat. Some have automated this.
I bought the plans for one of these greenhouses, and I have been collecting parts to do this on the cheap watching craigslist
I have also been asking myself the question could I take a geo greenhouse up to the next level with a mini split added...... I have been growing more and more inside with a mini split and plants like us love not having temp swings.
Thank you for sharing your greenhouse design, it looks great.
So far the fastest compost method I have found is Black Soldier flies..... I attract them with fermented vegetables buried in the compost... Then I feed them fodder plants...... They turn my compost every second they are alive.
I did something similar to what you did with the lawn mower except I used a garbage disposal to feed leaves in.
I have modified my electric lawn mower so that it chews up styrofoam and I re use it for insulation, and for air crete.
Thank you for sharing your method... I had an idea of having conveyor belts that would take the output of the lawn mower and feed it right back in from the output to the input so it would chew it up more...... But electric lawnmowers are awesome for tasks like this.
Very solar warm stuff there :-) I run a solar cooking group on MeWe we have lots of great ideas there as well.
Other things you can consider is using objects like trash cans to block the wind to help hold the heat, I have found making barriers to stop the wind most helpful.
Painting jars flat black with a strip of masking tape on them then removing the tape afterward makes a good cooking vessel as you can see where you removed the tape how well the food is cooking.
Blake Lenoir wrote: Could the Back To Eden work in my wildflower or native plant gardens so they can be a feeding ground for birds and other creatures?
My suggestion is to try a small area and see if it works for you. One system does not work for all, but you can always test it.
