Oroborus Hatfield

I agree with the no fruit tree's comment, maybe I'd even avoid doing perennials (depending on how fluid your situation there is). I was going to suggest vermicomposting as an alternative, which (if you do it in containers) would be something you could bring with you if you left. Might not be all that great of a suggestion =D

Ian, in response to controlling invasive species from what I have read you basically just build a retaining wall 3 feet or so below the surface with a material that wont rot. Supposedly this controls the runners, which if I understand correctly are the also the most aggressive in their growing. As to which one produces the fastest/most biomass, I do not know but would love to.

For the record Karl my experience with TLUD's and RMH's (which are similar to masonry stoves at least in the concept of storing thermal energy) is purely theoretical since I haven't yet built mine. That and I'm sure there are people on this forum who know more about it. I certainly don't mind speculating about it with you, I just wanted to be upfront so that you wouldn't mistake my conjecture/ideas for experiences and to encourage you to also seek out those with more experience and knowledge than myself. I really don't know anything about the setup of masonry stoves so I'm not sure how that set up would work.

I will answer your question with a question however! Wouldn't a cob type setup for the thermal mass be far cheaper than masonry stone? I am also a little confused as to where the secondary air comes into play in your system, and how easy/difficult it would be to change out the char/fuel. I think a better option might be a setup similar to that of the jolly roger, except the containers are surrounded (not on all sides) by the cob mix (and the appropriate fire retardation), and exhaust pipe is vented through more thermal mass on its way out of the green house. I would use something smaller than the 55 gal drums (as that setup is very large) maybe, and have it inside of the green house. I'm not sure how feasible it is to expect the exhaust gasses to travel through different changes of elevation, but I assume as long as the route isnt too complex and that it ends higher up than the unit (and outside in the colder air) that it should updraft okay? Maybe someone with more experience could chime in.

For the record I'm not bashing your masonry idea, I just have nill experience/knowledge of the units so you'll have ask around about that! I do very much like the idea of thermal mass heaters in green houses though, its one I've considered myself, and with the added bonus of burning manure and creating biochar, it seems win win, assuming it can be made to work

You're only capturing the kinetic energy of the river once, when it first comes out. The second and third time the energy is provided by acceleration due to gravity. And providing the river has the strength to do it, you could conceivably also run a rig off the side of it, just to capture the rotational energy provided by the river.


In regards to the mycelium mats another consideration I have is perhaps having an artificial stream (fueled by the pumps) that perhaps just have innoculated straw bales along the edges

I disagree with you a bit there tel, I think there's more potential than you think. In what I outlined in plan 2 it seems possible to capture the water three times. And while that might be a bit more on the overkill side of things, in plan 1 you can still capture twice. Now I'm not saying that capturing it just from the water wheel isn't a viable option, but I don't know what sort yields are possible from that, I'll have to look into it. And it just occurs to me that it may be possible to both pump the water AND capture the power from the turning of the wheel (course that might be pushing it as to what the rivers capable of doing).

Edit: Oh I forgot to add, that for purely water pumping potential I have a separate thought to perhaps use it in conjunction with large mycelium mats ect. I am just in love with the idea of the river supplying its own power to clean itself. Thoughts?

Karl, it's funny that you linked to the jolly roger set-up, that's what I had intended trying it with (once I build mine, waiting on the drums). I wonder if you would have to layer it so that the top layer of fuel was wood or something easily flammable so that by the time it got to the manure it was already off-gassing. However since I have read that different sources of bio-char have difference characteristics depending on what they were originally, I had planned to mix manure with wood anyway so I don't see that being a problem. My original intention was simply getting the bio-char, but now that you mention it, seems silly not to capture the heat for something useful. Finding a way to store that heat in a thermal mass for a home as you suggested seems like a good use for it. Another possible (although I don't know how practical/potent) an option would perhaps generating electricity with it. I don't have knowledge of the potential from thermocouplers or steam generators (maybe someone else can chime in), but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Especially if you planned on making a lot of it, or using it as your soul heating source. It's probably not out of the realm of possibility of using it to both generate electricity (if you were off grid/had a battery bank) AND heat your home.

If you had this unit in your basement, it occurs to me you could in fact have two sets of thermal masses. One in the basement (since the containers get very hot), and then one in the room above (piped through the floor to the second thermal mass, on its way to the outside)

I have a couple ideas buzzing around in my head as I write this for how to make it much easier to load/unload without a great deal of physical effort. Soon as I straighten them out I'll post them! lemme know whatcha think

Quick question, are there instances where mycorrhizae of any species are also saprophytic?

Anyone have experience using manure in a TLUD? Also whether or not you would need to make briquettes or not as long as its dry since its only off gassing? I know this threads about RS's but I can't find another thread about it ( or even eco logs) and I didn't want to start one just for that question .

I failed to mention (I think?) that this wirtz pump can be mounted on pontoons, (or just attached to a river bank) and its rotation is powered by waterwheel type action, using the flow of the river.


Cj: The lift comes from the changes in pressure within the pump, these pumps are particularly good for slow moving rivers where other hydro would not suffice. You get high lift from very slow RPMs, the distance it can pump is only limited by the number of coils within the pump, which increase the pressure of the water/air as it passes through towards the exit. I am not aware of any slow turning water wheel type run of river hydro that is capable of generating a substantial amount of electricity (other than this), if you have any links I'd love to see them. There is a bonus alone in the lift due to the air decompressing as it travels out of the tube, according to the calculations on the website I linked in my OP it's about 25%.

Dale: I couldn't say for sure but I would imagine the frictional losses of water in a pipe are fairly minimal? Perhaps I'm in error there. A reservoir at the top of the hill was part of the idea (I did not share it in the OP because I figured I had been confusing enough lol), I have a couple ideas in regard to that, which I will try to blather out in as rational a form as I can! I'll start with the less elaborate one and then try to explain the other.

Plan 1: The pump carries the water to a reservoir (probably at a distance shorter than its maximum lift) where before its added to the reservoir it passes through its first turbine. Since the line is pressurized I imagine it will turn it just fine, however since it will be coming out in spurtz (water, air, water, air ect) I wonder how effective this will be. Perhaps the air will also be enough to spin the turbine. I imagine at any rate there are devices with capacitors that could even out the fluctuation in energy provided there. It then pools in the reservoir (possibly multiple sets of pumps can congregate at one) where it is channeled back down to the riverside to the second turbine before being released back into the river. The advantages of this would be you could harness it twice, and someone please correct me on this because I might be in error but my assumption is that the weight of the water in the reservoir (provided it is big enough) will help the acceleration as it travels down the pipe to the river?

Plan 2: Is the same as plan 1 except this time (and feel free to call me crazy) the line carrying the water up the hill from the pump is suspended in air by cables from nearby tree's (providing of course that there are any). This get up allows for yet another (although smaller) chance to capture power from the water. The first turbine meets the cable 30 or so feet in the air (on a tree or tower I guess you could build if you really wanted to), this turbine is powered mostly by the fact that the line is pressurized (just like the first turbine in plan 1), you then get to add a 2nd turbine near the reservoir for when this same water drops via gravity from turbine 1 to turbine 2. It wouldn't be as much as turbine 3 (by the river) since its only a 30 foot or so drop. So in theory you could potentially harvest the energy of this water three times.

Rick: I am pretty darned confused about what you are saying, but maybe its the hour of the day, I'll re-read it after a nap.


I am willing to draw diagrams if these descriptions have been sub par, and I apologize for any confusion I am casting as I just got out of work and am rather fatigued. I thank all of you for your continued interest it is nice to have someone other than the GF to bother with this haha.

Someone on this forum (I forget who!) suggested using fishing line as fencing. A few separate lines at different heights after each other, apparently whoever it was had good results since the deer don't like not knowing what is touching them and apparently won't risk jumping it. Also (and this might be fanning the fire, not sure), what about planting nearby edible species that they might like or at least consider browsing on rather than risking the fence. Just a thought