beyond paleo - for health and weight loss

There were at least 12 cool things that Paul and I had in common when we met four years ago. One of them is that we both avoid dairy, gluten, soy and sugar. (Well, except for Paul's passion for pie and treats! ) How often do you find someone who wants to eat the same way as you do?

And while we eat organic, mostly paleo-ish and aim for low carbs, Paul and I have enjoyed LOTS of good food together. Combine that with computer work (sitting) as our daily work or avocations, and....four years later, we are both larger than when we met. A lot larger. Ugh.

Starting today, July 1, 2012, we are on a new path - a pact to reach a new level of health by December 1. To get there, we are looking at a variety of information.

In the past, Paul reached a weight loss goal by reading information and discussing things with Lyle McDonald of http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/. Lyle's recommendations are in line with a more paleo-style diet: high fat and protein, low/no carbs and sugars.

In my past, I read Fit for Life, which has some interesting theories about how to avoid pushing your metabolism into "starvation" mode and how to minimize exercise while maximizing fat burning and muscle gain. Lots about balancing carbs and proteins, and/or reducing carbs overall in this one, too.

Currently, I'm intrigued by Dave Asprey with the bulletproof diet website and recent podcast with Joel Salatin. Asprey thinks his diet is basically "paleo + science" due to his "bio-hacking" research.

Paul recalls from Lyle that in order to avoid metabolism drops, at least a week of less restricted eating is required to reset the metabolism. I think the Fit for Life folks recommended just one day "free" per week. Though both of our memories are from data from at least 10 years ago. We have yet to comb through the latest info to get good tips for our new plan.

Has anybody here on permies already done some of the latest research on the metabolism theories? Any other tips or ideas for this kind of thing?

Btw, sorry if a lot of this is already thoroughly discussed (or hashed about) in the paleo thread, but I couldn't distill it into what I was looking for, and wanted to make sure I didn't hijack that discussion.

I've found http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz1zPKfZeTu to contain a lot of discussion and links to research which may be helpful.

Restricting how much food I eat just doesn’t work for me. I’m a pig and I must eat. I’m eating right now. Sooo

To LOSE I eat raw with an exception for one egg a day. It has to be my backyard eggs or my neighbors. I need the protein or I start feeling weird.

To MAINTAIN – that, for me, is easy. No chemicals, no factory farmed animals and now – no wheat. I am still doing cheese from raw milk and I use the raw milk in cooking. Haven’t seen any weight gain from that.

Every one says that the worst thing you can do is weigh yourself every day. I have been weighing myself every day now for at least 6 years. It really helped me collect data about myself and uncover patterns in weight gain and loss.

Good luck and I hope you find something that works for you.

Jeanine Gurley wrote:Restricting how much food I eat just doesn’t work for me. I’m a pig and I must eat.

I'm the same way, I get hungry so easily, and then get tired and cranky. Starving isn't a plan, in my opinion. I think trying to increase activity is more effective, at least it has been for me, plus makes me feel better emotionally. Sitting around is not good, I've been doing too much of it lately....

Tyler Ludens wrote:I've found http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz1zPKfZeTu to contain a lot of discussion and links to research which may be helpful.

Wow, the first bit I read on Mark's Daily Apple said:

Researchers recently compared the total energy expenditure of patients on four-week isocaloric low-fat, low-glycemic, and low-carb diets. Although activity levels and caloric intake remained the same across all groups, the low-carb group burned 300 more calories per day than the low-fat group.

Same total calories, same activity level, and yet more calories burned for the low-carb folks. I like that!

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Jeanine Gurley wrote:Restricting how much food I eat just doesn’t work for me. I’m a pig and I must eat.

I'm the same way, I get hungry so easily, and then get tired and cranky. Starving isn't a plan, in my opinion. I think trying to increase activity is more effective, at least it has been for me, plus makes me feel better emotionally. Sitting around is not good, I've been doing too much of it lately....

Good feedback Jeanine and Tyler, though my question might have been misleading. We're not planning to restrict how much we eat, and we're not even planning on restricting calories per se, just restricting/changing the types of food we eat. We'll be eating high fat and high protein which, I think you both understand is, in many cases, actually much higher in calories (and with lots of fat, possibly more filling) than many, many diets out there.

So the question is, how much does restricting carbs (but still eating plenty of fat, protein and low-carb veggies--in fact, the bulletproof diet guy eats around 4,000 calories per day!) affect the metabolism and how often should we eat a bit more "off the program" to keep our metabolism(s) burning hotly? Does that make sense?

http://www.jointhereboot.com/

Juice fast as a cleanse followed by a paleo-like diet with lots of fermented foods seems to be the winner in my book.

That version of juice works IMO because it is basically raw paleo with zero fiber and triple the vitamins/minerals.

I have dealt with enough gut issues with my lyme disease side effects (5+ years of antibiotics leaves you with very little gut flora left). My Dr. suggested probiotics and fermented foods, but I didn't realize just HOW important it was until much later. Once your flora is back in balance, you can function on much lower calories as long as you get the nutrients you need--and YOU DON'T FEEL HUNGRY!!!

R Scott wrote:http://www.jointhereboot.com/

Juice fast as a cleanse followed by a paleo-like diet with lots of fermented foods seems to be the winner in my book.

That version of juice works IMO because it is basically raw paleo with zero fiber and triple the vitamins/minerals.

I have dealt with enough gut issues with my lyme disease side effects (5+ years of antibiotics leaves you with very little gut flora left). My Dr. suggested probiotics and fermented foods, but I didn't realize just HOW important it was until much later. Once your flora is back in balance, you can function on much lower calories as long as you get the nutrients you need--and YOU DON'T FEEL HUNGRY!!!

The gut issues are a very good point. Both Paul and I have candida-type imbalances. I've flirted a bit with fermented foods, but since neither of us tolerates dairy (haven't tried the raw milk stuff yet, perhaps we should), and some of my homemade ferments are not that great yet (except for sauerkraut and cortido, both of which Paul doesn't care for due to a bad experience with sauerkraut once upon a time), we're admittedly struggling to get enough probiotics.

Well, I suppose Paul would happily eat or drink the coconut milk yogurts and kefirs. Though these are too heavy on the sugar for me, and perhaps too much sugar to be of much good for him, either. I've been wanting to culture my own, no refined sugar, coconut milk yogurt--see if it could work with canned coconut milk any how--but haven't yet.

The juice fast to start with is interesting. It reminds me of these high quality meal replacement powders the ND's sold at the clinic where I used to work. From the sounds if it, they were/are a modified fast that cleansed the gut then restored it with the proper flora and fauna for a healthy digestion. I'd forgotten about doing some work like that to cleanse the gut. Hm. Thought neither one of us has a juicer...

Oh, and P.S. on my earlier comment. I fell off the wagon for a couple of months due to another issue and was eating crap - gained 8 lbs and lost most of the skin on my left hand. Now I am trying to get it back off. As of today I've lost 5 of those pounds and the skin is clearing back up. Hooray!

One of my co-workers can't understand my obsession - she is forever skinny. Yeah, just wait. She's still young yet.


Edited to add: Sorry Jocelyn, I just now read your question about the calories. I don't count calories. I just eat till I'm full. I only go by the guidelines I posted above. When I am on a maintain menu it will contain LOTS of fat. Sometimes, Sometimes not. Just depends what I'm craving.

Since I am currently on a Lose menu the food is raw so tonight it is a large bag of almonds. Later it will be an enormous bowl of raw veggies covered in olive oil, red wine vinegar and herbs. Had peanut butter and honey earlier. I eat lots of local honey. By the giant spoonful.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
The gut issues are a very good point. Both Paul and I have candida-type imbalances. I've flirted a bit with fermented foods, but since neither of us tolerates dairy (haven't tried the raw milk stuff yet, perhaps we should), and some of my homemade ferments are not that great yet (except for sauerkraut and cortido, both of which Paul doesn't care for due to a bad experience with sauerkraut once upon a time), we're admittedly struggling to get enough probiotics.

Well, I suppose Paul would happily eat or drink the coconut milk yogurts and kefirs. Though these are too heavy on the sugar for me, and perhaps too much sugar to be of much good for him, either. I've been wanting to culture my own, no refined sugar, coconut milk yogurt--see if it could work with canned coconut milk any how--but haven't yet.

The juice fast to start with is interesting. It reminds me of these high quality meal replacement powders the ND's sold at the clinic where I used to work. From the sounds if it, they were/are a modified fast that cleansed the gut then restored it with the proper flora and fauna for a healthy digestion. I'd forgotten about doing some work like that to cleanse the gut. Hm. Thought neither one of us has a juicer...

Lacto-fermented salsa, pickles, beets--just about any garden produce right now. It doesn't take much, a single slice of pickle--consider it medicine and choke it down if you have to. Find what works for you. Cheaper than buying probiotics.

I need a new juicer, too. WOW they are expensive for anything better than the Jack LaLane.

Someone on FB recommended this site: http://180degreehealth.com/, a guy who reports on (among other things) how our metabolisms are slowed by diets that are too low in carbs.

Interesting...

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:

Has anybody here on permies already done some of the latest research on the metabolism theories? Any other tips or ideas for this kind of thing?

Rob Wolff says it takes at least two weeks for our bodies to go ketogenic/fat burning before we adjust and start to feel good again. Just like goats; can't change up the diet too quickly or else we/they get sick. Gotta let the gut flora adjust.

+1 for the probiotics. We love kefir and kimchee, and sauerkraut on avocados with some hot sauce is da bomb!

+1 for raw milk. I was off dairy for 15 years before I discovered pastured raw Nubian and Nigerian Dwarf goat, and now I drink over a quart a day no problem. In fact, we thrive on it. Plus, goat pen muckings are the BEST top dressing you can find for your trees and garden!

+1 for the low carb sucks, but with a caviot: If you're physically active AND you're already at a good weight, pile on the carbs. But the carbs must be 'good' carbs - yams, fermented heirloom grains, white rice, etc. Avoid wheat as it stimulates appetite. Avoid non-heirloom or non-organic for obvious reasons.

If you're trying to lose some weight, cut most of the carbs, especially the carbs with barcodes on them. Go nuts with the veggies and pastured butter. Full disclosure - we eat WAP, not 'paleo' because we can eat homemade icecream and sourdough bread and we get the same benefits without feeling 'deprived'. WAP = organic Julia Child.

For more info on the Weston A Price Foundation, check out Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, simply the best 'paleo' book you can find. Amazing info and amazing recipies.

Good luck!
-g

You both have what I commonly called a 'broken metabolism', deranged gut flora, and live in the country with the most gut-lethal environment on the planet.
And because of that, you are exactly the people who should not go beyond Paleo.

Eating pie, treats, giant spoonfuls of honey, peanut butter, (fermented) grains, sugar bombs like apples and pears, and high-octane juices is not going to get you very far.

If I had one recommendation, it wouldn't even be my favourite book on the subject, but simply: STAY CLOSE TO THE MEAT COUNTER.

Don't concern yourself with energy expenditure (that'll take care of itself), probiotics (good, but not mandatory) or supplements.

Eat meat & fish, eat save starches (>100g/d), drink Bulletproof Coffee, combine that with some Intermittent Fasting once you're over the transition period, and be merry.

And if you really have to go beyond Paleo, read this:
http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2011/3/30/paleo-20-a-diet-manifesto.html/


Btw: My transition period were about 3 weeks, and I reached Fat Burning Beast status after about 3 months. YMMV

As a "supplement", I might suggest that you add bitters to your diet...prior to eating. Bitters are generally lacking in most western diets.
Taking bitters prior to a meal (or some bitter leaves or roots in a 1st course salad) activates all of the digestive fluids in your system.

This has been shown to increase the amount of nutrients our bodies will absorb from our food, and also help stabilize the metabolism. Overall digestion is greatly improved, and most digestive problems vanish with this regime. It is believed that restoring bitters to our diets can stave off a multitude of modern diseases.

Many diets around the Mediterranean start the meal with an aperitif, such as Vermouth. The people of those regions are generally healthier than in other western regions.

I have a good PDF detailing the benefits, but it might be too large to attach (+/- 100 kb)

I'm curious about the bitters, stuff, John. maybe a link to that pdf?

now, you would like my opinion you say? based in zero science, research, or even common sense? no problem: keep yourself real cold in the winter, and real warm in the summer. shiver and sweat. drink cold water in winter and hot water in summer. if that doesn't get your metabolism sped up, then my name's not Wackadoo Wacky Wackerson Wackwack.

slightly more seriously: with all that computer work, do either of you have a standing desk or have you considered one? I'm told that sitting for long periods is no good at all. in fact, it is quite bad.

of all the suggestions so far, the fermented stuff sounds the most delicious, so I would go heavily in that direction. that he doesn't like sauerkraut suggests that the universe has a serious grudge against paul. I want a reuben so badly right now. I'm going to go make a reuben. don't worry: I'll use sourdough rye bread.

greg patrick wrote:
For more info on the Weston A Price Foundation, check out Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, simply the best 'paleo' book you can find.

How is it "paleo" if it includes grains?

Jocelyn Campbell wrote: The gut issues are a very good point. Both Paul and I have candida-type imbalances. I've flirted a bit with fermented foods, but since neither of us tolerates dairy (haven't tried the raw milk stuff yet, perhaps we should), and some of my homemade ferments are not that great yet (except for sauerkraut and cortido, both of which Paul doesn't care for due to a bad experience with sauerkraut once upon a time), we're admittedly struggling to get enough probiotics.

You really should try raw milk. Every case of lactose-intolerance I personally know of can drink raw milk without issue.

Investigate IF (Intermittent Fasting). It basically consists of eating within an 8 hour window, and not eating for the remaining 16 hours of each day. For me, this means skipping breakfast, eating lunch around noon, and not eating after 8PM or so. Adopting a mostly paleo approach to food, eschewing excessive carbs, and relying on quality animal protein and fat for primary caloric intake had already produced rapid and noticeable results, but incorporating IF principles really did the trick. One thing I like about it is I an still eat until I'm full without worrying about weight gain. The idea is to rearrange the eating schedule, not the quantity. This strategy is believed to vastly improve insulin sensitivity, and also to prevent overgrowth of harmful gut flora by not continually feeding it. I've experimented with lots of things over the years, and this produced the most impressive results of all--and it's easy; no calorie counting or obsessing over diets. In my mid '30s, I got up to about 230 (I'm 6'2"); now (at 54) I stick at 180-185 without even thinking about it. I also don't get that postprandial 'brain fog' anymore, and have way more energy.

Some consider IF an aspect of the paleo diet, since early man didn't have clocks and established meal times. I actually ate like this throughout my teenage years--slept in instead of eating breakfast, and then skipped lunch so I could use the money for other stuff (it was the day of cigarette machines :-) . When I joined the Army at 18, I weighed all of 148#. Then I started eating like everyone else and had to struggle against weight gain.

More info:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_fasting
www.leangains.com/

Give it a shot. You'll be amazed.

Jocelyn, do you avoid dairy because of lactose, or for other reasons? I think even severely lactose-intolerant people can eat fermented milk products like yoghurt, as the irritating lactose has been converted to lactase by lactobaccili bacteria.
Many lactose-intolerant people can drink straight raw milk too. Raw milk is high-protein, high-fat, high-all sorts of good stuff and I'd suggest giving it another try.
Lacto-fermenting even makes grains (reasonably) digestable

Wow, I appreciate all the comments, loads of info and things to try. Too many to quote and reply to before I go take a walk this evening!

Paul will have to comment on his bad experience with sauerkraut. And as for me and dairy, even fermented dairy products cause congestion, brain fog and eczema or acne. Don't have a place to grow my own raw milk, and no raw source at the moment.

Standing desk - trying it with my ironing board! Can't do it for very long at all yet--back complains--but I keep trying. Bitters - gonna try those again, too.

I'm still weighing (ach! bad pun!) the different protein, low-carb, meal/fast frequency, and other theories regarding a healthy metabolism. Lots. to. absorb.

I didn't have a link for the bitters article, but found one:
Blessed Bitters

The ancients recognized the values of bitters. It is a major part of the Passover Feast.

The article is well worth a read. Makes me want a Martini, or Manhattan before supper.
(I don't know how much 'bitters' are left in Vermouth since governments began restricting wormwood for human consumption. Vermouth is actually a slur on the German word Wermut = wormwood.)

John Polk wrote:I didn't have a link for the bitters article, but found one:
Blessed Bitters

There's also a great thread on safest bitter herbs here on permies.

One of the things I find interesting is that no matter what one decides to include or exclude from their diet, this lost element of human diet should help us to maximize the benefits of whatever we choose to eat.

Omnivore, vegan, paleo, or whatever, we all stand to win. A missing link.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:
even fermented dairy products cause congestion, brain fog and eczema or acne. Don't have a place to grow my own raw milk, and no raw source at the moment.

Bummer. I suppose I really need to investigate for myself. My info's based on other's experience, as I've mever considered myself as having any problems with dairy.
But really, my 'normal' could be your 'brain fog'
It's pretty unexciting, but aside from doing hard physical labour, the only way I know of to heathily lose weight is to consume less energy than you use.
That means eating less, basically .

Leila Rich wrote:It's pretty unexciting, but aside from doing hard physical labour, the only way I know of to heathily lose weight is to consume less energy than you use. That means eating less, basically .

It's pretty damn unexciting, and totally unnecessary.
Gary Taubes et al have worked very hard to disspell the myth that A (consume less than I use) and B (eat less) are correlated in any way.

I strongly recommend Peter Attia's site and this post in particular because it's about the study mentioned. Terrible MSM interpretation of the study.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:

Tyler Ludens wrote:I've found http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz1zPKfZeTu to contain a lot of discussion and links to research which may be helpful.

Wow, the first bit I read on Mark's Daily Apple said:

Researchers recently compared the total energy expenditure of patients on four-week isocaloric low-fat, low-glycemic, and low-carb diets. Although activity levels and caloric intake remained the same across all groups, the low-carb group burned 300 more calories per day than the low-fat group.

Same total calories, same activity level, and yet more calories burned for the low-carb folks. I like that!

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:So the question is, how much does restricting carbs (but still eating plenty of fat, protein and low-carb veggies--in fact, the bulletproof diet guy eats around 4,000 calories per day!) affect the metabolism and how often should we eat a bit more "off the program" to keep our metabolism(s) burning hotly? Does that make sense?

Depends how you intend to stray. My first month I stayed away from all sugar and white bread and lost 2 lbs a week. As I did further research I went to net 50 carbs/ day and hit a plateau. After a few weeks I started losing again but at a slower rate.

I don't think you can eat sugar or refined carbs and still lose weight (on a low carb high fat diet). I have continued to lose but my big indulgence has been 2 cups of frozen berries with heavy cream. The cream lessens the insulin response. I do use some xyolitol as a sweetener.

For the first month or so you should track what you eat - not to restrict calories but to make sure you eat enough protein and not too many carbs. Less than 50 g carbs is recommended for weight loss. There is a formula for the amount of protein you need (I ***think*** it was something like your weight in kilos *1.25 so if you weighed 150 lbs you'd need 85 g protein).

I know lots of people like juicing but it sounds like a terrible idea. To quote Peter Attia "Drinking fruit juice is basically mainlining fructose–not good."

Juicing is just another form of refining your food. The juicer is doing lots of the digestion for you. Think of it like this: a 2 1/2 lb sugar beet has 5 tsp of sugar. Eating that much plain sugar takes no time at all and you're still hungry. Eat that huge sugar beet and you wont have room for anything else. Juicing that sugar beet is half way to just eating the sugar. Wrong direction.

R Scott wrote:
Juice fast as a cleanse followed by a paleo-like diet with lots of fermented foods seems to be the winner in my book.

OK, last comment.

A friend went low carb due to candida. He was told absolutely no sugar or fruit till the candida is gone. He started in Feb. and it still at it. He lost tons of weight but zero fruit takes serious commitment.

Jocelyn Campbell wrote:Both Paul and I have candida-type imbalances.

Cj Verde wrote:zero fruit takes serious commitment.

I might rather die.

Yes, it's extreme - but...
He was getting terrible migraines and had to got to the ER. Half a dose of morphine cost $1,800. He blew up the bill and has it hanging in his office. Takes the edge off of the no fruit deal (which is temporary anyway).

Michael Radelut wrote:

Leila Rich wrote:It's pretty unexciting, but aside from doing hard physical labour, the only way I know of to heathily lose weight is to consume less energy than you use. That means eating less, basically .

It's pretty damn unexciting, and totally unnecessary.
Gary Taubes et al have worked very hard to disspell the myth that A (consume less than I use) and B (eat less) are correlated in any way.

Ooops, that "you" snuck in. I meant "I", and considering I know nothing about the science behind paleo eating, I shouldn't be in this thread at all!
I maintain that when I consume less energy, I lose weight. There could well be other ways, but that's how it works for me

Michael Radelut wrote:

Leila Rich wrote:It's pretty unexciting, but aside from doing hard physical labour, the only way I know of to heathily lose weight is to consume less energy than you use. That means eating less, basically .

It's pretty damn unexciting, and totally unnecessary.
Gary Taubes et al have worked very hard to disspell the myth that A (consume less than I use) and B (eat less) are correlated in any way.

If I've learned anything from opening up this conversation, it's that different things work for different people. I appreciate the input from Leila and everyone else on here even if I might not choose exactly the same path.

And basically, I still want to exercise because my body feels better when I do. Plus, it's embarrassing to get winded on a slight slope, or not be able to take an easy hike with friends.

My younger sister is a fitness goddess. Even with some seriously debilitating nerve damage in her hip, she is back to her lean, mean self, competing in tae kwon do and kicking ass--literally! She has lean, fast-twitch muscles, and I think I have much more of the curvy, larger-boned frame with slow-twitch muscles. She's an amazing swing dancer, she gardens, going to school to be R.D., has cool Bernese dogs and backyard chickens. (And she's single. ) If she gains anything at all, my sis gets back to her optimal weight via the Zone diet ("40:30:30" ratio of calories obtained from carbs, proteins, and fats). She's concerned for me: that going into ketosis (low carbs) is harder for women, and might actually throw my hormones off.

(If you think about it, it does seem that more men promote the higher protein, higher fat diets than women do.)

I'll have to look into the intermittent fasting, and lots of the other links on here, still. From The Eating Academy, this excerpt is part of what is finally fitting together with all my myriad other fractals of information and advice. It's in reference to why cultures who eat more carbohydrates than Americans don't seem to have the health issues that have become epidemic here.

Reason #2 — Total glycemic load

It’s important to keep in mind that the percent of carbohydrate consumed is nowhere near as important as the absolute amount of carbohydrate consumed. Failure to understand this point may be one of the most significant reasons for the calories-are-everything-argument. Recall my post on why Weight Watchers and most commercial diets are actually low-carb diets. Virtually any diet that reduces caloric intake also reduces glycemic load. Worth repeating: Virtually any diet that reduces caloric intake also reduces glycemic load. That is, cutting calories almost always means cutting carbohydrates, cutting insulin, and cutting fat storage. So what does this have to do with folks in Japan eating rice? While these cultures may consume a higher percentage of their intake from carbohydrates, their actual glycemic load is lower. In other words, they actually consume fewer total carbohydrates in most cases than a typical Westerner (and in the presence of much less sugar!).

This is, in part, what provided me with a plausible explanation for why my lovely, talented, brilliant and slim sister might be able to lose using the Zone diet, and also why I might choose differently.

Whew. I've gotta stop reading so much about all of this stuff and start doing things.

Starting out on this by doing some selective reading is quite common; I've done that myself...
Your sister has the epigenetic potential to use something as crappy as the Zone Diet for weight loss, whereas you (and many others) don't.

Now, just repeat after me :

50-100g of carbs (starchy tubers, white rice, buckwheat and berries)
stay close to the meat counter
Bulletproof Coffee as fasting extension in the morning

Now, does that sound difficult ?

I disagree with those specific carbs, agree with the amounts, but...

Carbohydrate intolerance (or insulin sensitivity) appears to be a continuum. As far as I can tell, everyone agrees on no sugar or HFCS. Most everyone agrees no white flour. After that, it is up to the individual to rely on their own judgement/experimentation to find where they are on the continuum and what they want to do about it.

Cj Verde wrote:I disagree with those specific carbs, agree with the amounts, but...

Carbohydrate intolerance (or insulin sensitivity) appears to be a continuum. As far as I can tell, everyone agrees on no sugar or HFCS. Most everyone agrees no white flour. After that, it is up to the individual to rely on their own judgement/experimentation to find where they are on the continuum and what they want to do about it.

Not a problem. I may add a link to Paul Jaminet's 'Perfect Health Diet' to my signature; he's way more patient at explaining the details

Michael Radelut wrote:
stay close to the meat counter

I have trouble staying close to the factory farm meat counter, in fact I tend to avoid it. There's no grassfed meat counter to speak of.

Tyler Ludens wrote:I have trouble staying close to the factory farm meat counter, in fact I tend to avoid it. There's no grassfed meat counter to speak of.

You will have noticed that 'meat counter' was merely a figure of speech.

However, remember what Robb Wolf says about "hippie excuses" for not being able to source quality meat :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PpuIKTg6QE

I'm in a rather weird situation myself, because the only affordable organic meat I'm buying at the largest supermarket chain around.
The organic shops are mostly carrying absurdely priced cuts in small quantities. They're making more money catering for the vegan crowd.

Tyler, have you looked on Craig's list? Around here beef & pork is about $3lb hanging weight which comes out to about $4lb. A side of pork should be manageable for 2 people and maybe 1/4 of a cow. You have chickens, right? Eggs count as meat. Old chickens go in the pot. What about your sheep? Old ones should be OK ground. Any luck with the fish...

Costco has good prices on some organic/grass fed meat.

Worst case scenerio - like I've said before - corn fed beef is still better than a corn muffin.