Windbreak design

My main question is how to integrate a driveway through a windbreak. I’m working up a design to plant magnolias across where I *think* strong storm winds come from and blow down my largest trees. An easement adjoins that southern border that I need to create an extension to accommodate parking and an unloading area.

2nd question: Do large trees tend to fall straight downhill due to gravity, storm winds, or both? Even my ≈200-year old oak lost its split trunk recently and that’s landed in the same downhill/north oriented direction.

3rd question: If trees are blowing down now is it even going to matter if I plant magnolias for a future windbreak? My property is already heavily forested.

FYI I posted previously about selective logging vs. clearcutting.

For the visual here is a rough sketch. The property slopes downhill to the north. The adjoining property on the west side is essentially a valley and was logged about 5 years ago. That may have intensified stormwinds to blow down the tree on that side. My neighbor to the south clearcut about 1-2 acres that may have intensified stormwinds to blow down the others.

For my windbreak key please note the stars will be transplanted hollies, circles for magnolias, and dots for fruit trees and transplanted blueberries.

I kind of feel that it’s unnecessary to utilize plains-states multiple-row windbreak designs in north Georgia mountains but 1) I’ve wanted to transplant my wild hollies for natural fencing and 2) evergreen hollies will theoretically block wind that would push through the bottom of the magnolias.

But there are still several hundred feet of established forest bordering the clearcut area of the neighboring property to the south. It’s really the stormwinds driving through the forest canopy that I believe is causing damage.

I’ll be doing most of my vegetables along the western border for strong afternoon sun and improved light conditions established through the neighboring valley clearcut.

Thank you for your input.

Bump for the evening crew

It might be good to add a link to the selective logging post...

1. Are you sure that the trees being knocked down haven't been weakened by age/disease/competition/ etc, rather than the wind being the "cause"? We've lost a *lot* of cedar in our area, and I've been told it's the shift in the weather pattern here - longer summer droughts - that is predominantly responsible.

2. I don't know much about Magnolia, but I've definitely read that using a variety of heights and types of vegetation is best for windbreaks. If you think your soil could use more nitrogen, I'd add some shrubs like Seaberry or Goumi as they are nitrogen fixers.

3. If you need something to "chop and drop" that will be add density down low, comfrey was doing well for me until this year - the drought's been so bad that the deer decided it was edible... sigh... I hope it upset their tummies! However, that's another thing to consider - what might to eat what your planting, and can you protect it well enough until it's established?

There is so much that doesn't show in your drawing.  Normal wind direction?, wind direction that is typically destructive? How are the trees watered?  Do you have microburst problems?  Do snow drifts play into the thinking?


Lets talk about mine for an example

My normal winds are out of the north/northwest with about 80% of the winds coming from that direction.  Most of the rest are out of the south/southeast.  We have harder winds out of the north/northwest typically.  But mostly everyone builds to endure that so the most destructive winds are out of the south/southeast.  Lost a big window leaned against the house a couple of years ago because we got a really violent wind out of the west.  But that is so rare that the window could have leaned there for a couple of decades typically with no risk.  Because I have mountains to the east/northeast strong winds from that direction basically never happen.  I am far enough away with a real ridge line in the way so downslope never reaches here but I am too close for pressure related winds to have enough room to build up much.  Have never understood the fuss about 60 mile per hour to 80 mile per hour winds as we do that 6 or 8  times a year with many weeks worth of 20 to 60 mile per hour winds in a given year.  We are not a good wind energy area though because we are typically still in between.  Winds out of the south are the big destruction typically because of greater turbulence.  North edge of the property being higher seems to catch more micro burst wind sheer.  I have seen a 8 to 10 inch cottonwood tree snapped in the middle of good wood from wind sheer.   The bottom of the tree is left standing intact up to about 10 feet and everything is snapped off above that.  Have never seen that happen in the middle of the property.  The north edge though catches it often by virtual of the terrain around it.

Now  your road is a threat in that the roots won't extend under it as good so likely that will be the weak side of the tree.  Where the water pools to water it matters too.  Here I can't grow trees without irrigation.  Ideally I want the water source to the north or west side for best root development on that side while avoiding anything that hinders root development to the south so I wouldn't want a road on the south side of trees here.

I don't want a road just down wind from trees on the west or the north as that is where my snow drifts come from.

Now I am going to strongly second Jay's comments protecting trees from wildlife.  Threats here are deer, rabbits and livestock.  Probably less than 1/3 of trees will live long enough to become survivors without help.   Each tree needs an individual fence around it with a larger fence around everything and that is still not enough.  Had utility wire circles about Linden trees a couple of years ago.  A neighbors cow decided it liked them and caved every tree circle in to eat the tree.  Lose 1 or 2 tree circles to rutting bucks each year too.   Have lost a couple of  tree cirlces too on some bucks antlers.   So the ideal is a 2 layer electric fence with about 4 to 6 feet between the fences.  Then tree circles around individual trees.  At this point and time I am feeling vindictive and thinking the tree circles should be 6 foot high hog panels surrounded by razor wire with utility wire on the bottom 3 feet to keep the rabbits out.

Jay Angler wrote:It might be good to add a link to the selective logging post...

1. Are you sure that the trees being knocked down haven't been weakened by age/disease/competition/ etc, rather than the wind being the "cause"? We've lost a *lot* of cedar in our area, and I've been told it's the shift in the weather pattern here - longer summer droughts - that is predominantly responsible.

2. I don't know much about Magnolia, but I've definitely read that using a variety of heights and types of vegetation is best for windbreaks. If you think your soil could use more nitrogen, I'd add some shrubs like Seaberry or Goumi as they are nitrogen fixers.

3. If you need something to "chop and drop" that will be add density down low, comfrey was doing well for me until this year - the drought's been so bad that the deer decided it was edible... sigh... I hope it upset their tummies! However, that's another thing to consider - what might to eat what your planting, and can you protect it well enough until it's established?

https://permies.com/t/222150/woodlland/regenerative-logging

1) Yes, it’s possible that I’ve drawn the wrong conclusions from my observations.

2) That’s good to know. Integrating more variation would also serve to preserve an uncultivated appearance that I consider a plus.

I have a lot of black locust for nitrogen-fixing.

3) I planted some vegetables this year that were eaten down to the ground. I don’t know what did it.

I have plans for bear-proof fencing, livestock fencing, and a lgd. Other than those and an effective companion planting scheme I don’t know how else to protect new growth.

I’m planning on a large chicken yard enclosed with 1/2” hardware cloth and giving them their own raised bed gardens that will also be inside the hardware cloth yard. But extending hardware cloth fencing to everything else inside 4+ acres would be too expensive.

C. Letellier wrote:There is so much that doesn't show in your drawing.  Normal wind direction?, wind direction that is typically destructive? How are the trees watered?  Do you have microburst problems?  Do snow drifts play into the thinking?

Lets talk about mine for an example

My normal winds are out of the north/northwest with about 80% of the winds coming from that direction.  Most of the rest are out of the south/southeast.  We have harder winds out of the north/northwest typically.  But mostly everyone builds to endure that so the most destructive winds are out of the south/southeast.  Lost a big window leaned against the house a couple of years ago because we got a really violent wind out of the west.  But that is so rare that the window could have leaned there for a couple of decades typically with no risk.  Because I have mountains to the east/northeast strong winds from that direction basically never happen.  I am far enough away with a real ridge line in the way so downslope never reaches here but I am too close for pressure related winds to have enough room to build up much.  Have never understood the fuss about 60 mile per hour to 80 mile per hour winds as we do that 6 or 8  times a year with many weeks worth of 20 to 60 mile per hour winds in a given year.  We are not a good wind energy area though because we are typically still in between.  Winds out of the south are the big destruction typically because of greater turbulence.  North edge of the property being higher seems to catch more micro burst wind sheer.  I have seen a 8 to 10 inch cottonwood tree snapped in the middle of good wood from wind sheer.   The bottom of the tree is left standing intact up to about 10 feet and everything is snapped off above that.  Have never seen that happen in the middle of the property.  The north edge though catches it often by virtual of the terrain around it.

Now  your road is a threat in that the roots won't extend under it as good so likely that will be the weak side of the tree.  Where the water pools to water it matters too.  Here I can't grow trees without irrigation.  Ideally I want the water source to the north or west side for best root development on that side while avoiding anything that hinders root development to the south so I wouldn't want a road on the south side of trees here.

I don't want a road just down wind from trees on the west or the north as that is where my snow drifts come from.

Now I am going to strongly second Jay's comments protecting trees from wildlife.  Threats here are deer, rabbits and livestock.  Probably less than 1/3 of trees will live long enough to become survivors without help.   Each tree needs an individual fence around it with a larger fence around everything and that is still not enough.  Had utility wire circles about Linden trees a couple of years ago.  A neighbors cow decided it liked them and caved every tree circle in to eat the tree.  Lose 1 or 2 tree circles to rutting bucks each year too.   Have lost a couple of  tree cirlces too on some bucks antlers.   So the ideal is a 2 layer electric fence with about 4 to 6 feet between the fences.  Then tree circles around individual trees.  At this point and time I am feeling vindictive and thinking the tree circles should be 6 foot high hog panels surrounded by razor wire with utility wire on the bottom 3 feet to keep the rabbits out.

I believe the tree damage is from microbursts. How would I properly assess winds and storms remotely? I visit the property for several hours probably once or twice a month. I currently have no infrastructure there. It would be wise to figure out and understand my microclimate if I’m ever going to make the property more habitable.

I plan to plant the magnolias 1) after the logging is completed and 2) preferably the day before several days of predicted rain.

Here in north Georgia any snowfall is negligible.

The “road” is a washed-out gravel easement that doesn’t get a lot of use. I’d like to get it regraveled but definitely no asphalt or concrete.

How much does a infrequently-used gravel driveway impact a developing root system?

Lastly, please note the answers I posted above regarding the protection of new growth from livestock and wildlife.

C. Letellier wrote: At this point and time I am feeling vindictive and thinking the tree circles should be 6 foot high hog panels surrounded by razor wire with utility wire on the bottom 3 feet to keep the rabbits out.

I empathize with you completely! In some situations, you can plant 100 seeds and figure you'll get 50 trees and that works. In some situations, you can plant 1000 seeds and get 0 trees and that doesn't work! I carefully started some goji berry seeds this spring. I had barely 25% germination - likely less, as I recall I re-seeded several pots at one point. I managed to get 5 babies to about 3 inches tall, and put them on the front porch to harden off. One night a West Coast slug came by and ate every one of them down to the ground... there was an entire bin of kale 3" away. Kale is easy to grow here. But no, the slug had to take the plants I'd struggled with. Sigh... I'm going to try again though. I have one goji bush and we like the berries and they're very nutritious, but I think it would prefer to cross pollinate, not to mention better soil, but I'll work on both of those this fall hopefully. I did work on the soil issue a bunch last fall, but not enough.  

Vanessa Smoak wrote:

C. Letellier wrote:There is so much that doesn't show in your drawing.  Normal wind direction?, wind direction that is typically destructive? How are the trees watered?  Do you have microburst problems?  Do snow drifts play into the thinking?

Lets talk about mine for an example

My normal winds are out of the north/northwest with about 80% of the winds coming from that direction.  Most of the rest are out of the south/southeast.  We have harder winds out of the north/northwest typically.  But mostly everyone builds to endure that so the most destructive winds are out of the south/southeast.  Lost a big window leaned against the house a couple of years ago because we got a really violent wind out of the west.  But that is so rare that the window could have leaned there for a couple of decades typically with no risk.  Because I have mountains to the east/northeast strong winds from that direction basically never happen.  I am far enough away with a real ridge line in the way so downslope never reaches here but I am too close for pressure related winds to have enough room to build up much.  Have never understood the fuss about 60 mile per hour to 80 mile per hour winds as we do that 6 or 8  times a year with many weeks worth of 20 to 60 mile per hour winds in a given year.  We are not a good wind energy area though because we are typically still in between.  Winds out of the south are the big destruction typically because of greater turbulence.  North edge of the property being higher seems to catch more micro burst wind sheer.  I have seen a 8 to 10 inch cottonwood tree snapped in the middle of good wood from wind sheer.   The bottom of the tree is left standing intact up to about 10 feet and everything is snapped off above that.  Have never seen that happen in the middle of the property.  The north edge though catches it often by virtual of the terrain around it.

Now  your road is a threat in that the roots won't extend under it as good so likely that will be the weak side of the tree.  Where the water pools to water it matters too.  Here I can't grow trees without irrigation.  Ideally I want the water source to the north or west side for best root development on that side while avoiding anything that hinders root development to the south so I wouldn't want a road on the south side of trees here.

I don't want a road just down wind from trees on the west or the north as that is where my snow drifts come from.

Now I am going to strongly second Jay's comments protecting trees from wildlife.  Threats here are deer, rabbits and livestock.  Probably less than 1/3 of trees will live long enough to become survivors without help.   Each tree needs an individual fence around it with a larger fence around everything and that is still not enough.  Had utility wire circles about Linden trees a couple of years ago.  A neighbors cow decided it liked them and caved every tree circle in to eat the tree.  Lose 1 or 2 tree circles to rutting bucks each year too.   Have lost a couple of  tree cirlces too on some bucks antlers.   So the ideal is a 2 layer electric fence with about 4 to 6 feet between the fences.  Then tree circles around individual trees.  At this point and time I am feeling vindictive and thinking the tree circles should be 6 foot high hog panels surrounded by razor wire with utility wire on the bottom 3 feet to keep the rabbits out.

I believe the tree damage is from microbursts. How would I properly assess winds and storms remotely? I visit the property for several hours probably once or twice a month. I currently have no infrastructure there. It would be wise to figure out and understand my microclimate if I’m ever going to make the property more habitable.

I plan to plant the magnolias 1) after the logging is completed and 2) preferably the day before several days of predicted rain.

Here in north Georgia any snowfall is negligible.

The “road” is a washed-out gravel easement that doesn’t get a lot of use. I’d like to get it regraveled but definitely no asphalt or concrete.

How much does a infrequently-used gravel driveway impact a developing root system?

Lastly, please note the answers I posted above regarding the protection of new growth from livestock and wildlife.

Here micro burst damage typically breaks the tree off well above ground level rather than tipping it over and pulling the root ball up.  Here usually microburst damage is 6 to 15 feet up and the trunk below that point is okay with no visible soil damage.  Another indicator is usually it is breaking it off in good wood rather than a weak spot.  Guessing that may apply there?  On the other hand if the whole tree is tipped over that is likely plain wind damage.

As for knowing weather generally remote is a problem.  Is there an old timer close you can ask about the weather patterns there?  Talk to the right person and a whole lot of things might be made plain.

Level of use matters for road compaction but I know no way to define it in simple terms.  And your soil type might be completely different.  A tree on a hay field that is harvested 3 times a year and driven over a few more time besides has no problems.  But a road with 3 times that uses will affect tree growth.  But watering levels and concentration of the compaction both come into play.  There again the right old timer who pays attention might be able to teach you way more.  

As for fencing long runs of trees dual electric wires about 4 to 6 feet apart and just under 3 feet off the ground seem to have been our cheapest and most reliable answer.  Deer typically won't jump into a tight space.  Thus 2 lower wires seems to work better than even 4 or 5 strands in vertical.  Ideally on 2 separate fencers.  Also had cross wires between fences and also in the fenced area to chop them in cells too so even if the deer gets in the area he damages is limited.