Changing our perspective on money

Welcome Mark. Interesting stuff.

My questions are first off, now a year past publishing, have you kept contact with Daniel... and similarly, with the Hansen's after North By Northwest?

Secondly, since Daniel would accept no monetary part of the profit from his story, have you felt compelled by your own changing relationship with money to somehow point something back to him... support of his effort for his moneyless tribe or anything at all... or has return of surplus to him lost all meaning with his complete disassociation from mediums of exchange?

Thanks for your work.

I'm still in touch with him and will likely see him this summer in Montana. He is trying to start of roaming community of like minded people. Here's what he posted:

Community Forming
Suelo Posted On 5/29/2013, Last Updated On 5/30/2013
A wandering moneyless tribe! Sharing in community my experience living without money for 12 years. To be launched at the 2013 Montana Rainbow Gathering. We are accepting folks willing to give up all money, and also looking for communities we can be of free service to on our migratory path and to network with.

Two-fold mission:
1) Practice gift economy by not having, accepting, or using money, freely giving and receiving, offering free services to individuals, towns, organic farms, intentional communities, churches, ashrams, monasteries along its migratory path.
2) Raise awareness by activist example, (eg, challenging concepts of private property and returning stolen lands to native people’s stewardship, reducing stress on the environment and ending dependence on corporate trade and exploition of "third world" populations).

Prerequisite to join us: give up all money to your name, not taking or using it, to fully grasp the meaning of walking by faith (courage).

It is to run by consensus, to be ecumenical, to practice and bring to light the forgotten principles of the world's spiritual traditions (giving up possessions, doing for the sake of doing rather than for future reward).
Email Address: freemeansnomoney@gmail.com

As for your second question--do i feel compelled to give something back--Suelo doesn't believe in barter, either. His giving up of money is a way of being free of not just monetary debt, but all other types of debt and obligation. So he would be uncomfortable if I said, "Thanks for giving me your life story for this book, and in return, i want to give you a piece or land" or something like that. I don't think he would accept it. His goal is to give freely with expectation of getting something in return, and to accept freely without obligation to pay back. So, no, I don't feel compelled to do anything for him. That said, he and I became close friends during the writing of the book, and even more so during our two-month book tour. And if I ever found out he needed help, I'd be quick to offer it.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I'd read his blog and the Rainbow Gathering plans. It'll be fascinating to follow where that leads.

Deep waters here, washing all around our concepts of more than just "debt" or "barter" or "commerce". This touches on "duty", and the nature of what "ownership" is... what is or is not a "social contract", all outside of the standard framework of "law". Feel like I peeked in a box only to discover it's a telescope looking on a hidden galaxy.

I pretty well understand Daniel's perspective, and that you expressing material reciprocity for his gift of his story to you would violate the spirit in which it was given... and in the way he lives. This type of aesceticism is at the heart of the best of the role models we've gotten from the past in many ways... the more so because it's so singularly rare.

My curiosity is actually about the changes in you from being exposed to someone who's life is so radically different. I can admire Daniel's path, but have a way to go in understanding what the whole picture of it means. Of what it means from the perspective of someone who lives this free, to my personal spiritual path, and what it means to my worldview. I'm sort of working on seeing the glasses I'm looking through, in respect to all the things this could change in my perspective, and one of the ways I do that is to look at the things that don't change.

I know you still live in the world of deadlines and contracts and debts and paychecks like the rest of us (or most of the rest of us). I guess what I'm curious about is how you have changed in relation to what you feel you owe people, and what they owe you. Not just Daniel, but friends and family and business relationships. And just as curious what has not changed that you might have thought it would.

Again, thanks for your time on the forums here. Great stuff to hold up a mirror to ourselves with.

It's an interesting concept and certainly in this age of materialism is certainly a different path to follow. I am curious about the practicalities of a wandering moneyless tribe. How would they deal with some of the obstacles that life invariably throws up at us? One such thing would be illness. How do they propose to deal with say a life threatening illness? Do they plan on using natural medicine and living (or dying) with the consequences? Or in the event of an emergency will they be relying on a 'monied' health care institution?

Peace

Jeff

wow Kelly, great. I'm interested to hear from Mark now.

Jeff,

Mark addressed your question here:
https://permies.com/t/25370/frugality/Health-Insurance-Living-Frugaly

-Kelly

Kelly Kitchens wrote:Jeff,

Mark addressed your question here:
https://permies.com/t/25370/frugality/Health-Insurance-Living-Frugaly

-Kelly

Thanks Kelly - yes it was addressed in both aspects from Marks perspective and from Daniels. I wonder how many of the folks in the tribe would really prescribe to Daniels perspective if push came to shove? Wonder if Daniel would do the same? A cut finger is one thing .... but an appendectomy or pancreatitis is something completely different.

What I learned from working with Suelo was not, as I expected, that money was bad and that we should feel terrible for ever using or having any. Suelo is not a scold, and he doesn't live this way as if wearing a hairshirt. When people say, Don't you miss having money? he says something like: Does a bird miss having money? In other words, he doesn't feel like he's suffering, or going without. Instead he feels MORE FREE than ever, because instead of doing what was expected of him, he followed his heart, which was telling him to follow the teachings from Buddha, Christ, LaoTze about freeing yourself spiritually. When people ask him advice, he doesn't say quit money, or even use less money, he says, spend the time to learn what your heart wants, and follow it. So that I think is what has influenced me most about him. What I never wanted to do in this life is to work at something I hated just for money. I've been blessed to be able to work at what I love--writing, currently--and find that enough money follows so that I don't have to go out and do something else. (I also teach writing part time, and that's also something I enjoy). I've dedicated most of my life to doing things that pay poorly or not at all, and hanging out with Suelo gave me confidence to pursue those things more, to not worry if what I like isn't someone else's idea of success, and to have faith that if I follow that right livlihood, the finances will work themselves out one way or another. Great question, Kelly. Thanks!

Jeff, I don't know who--if anyone--is joining Suelo's group, or how they would respond to a life threatening illness. Ultimately it's the thing people, including myself, are most curious about. As I put it to Suelo: are you actually willing to die for this belief system? He has said that he would accept medical care if it was freely given by a doctor or nurse. He has also said he wouldn't want to be a burden to society and thinks that when his time comes, he will accept that. There's no saying what he will do when push comes to shove. Although he has lived without money happily for 12 years, he has made no vow or promise to do it another 12 years or 12 days. One thing I can say about him is that he honestly doesn't seem to be afraid of dying, which struck me as different than most Americans and Westerners that I know. Thanks for the question!

Thankyou Mark and Kelly. this makes a lot of sense to me. --Steven

Mark Sundeen wrote:Jeff, I don't know who--if anyone--is joining Suelo's group, or how they would respond to a life threatening illness. Ultimately it's the thing people, including myself, are most curious about. As I put it to Suelo: are you actually willing to die for this belief system? He has said that he would accept medical care if it was freely given by a doctor or nurse. He has also said he wouldn't want to be a burden to society and thinks that when his time comes, he will accept that. There's no saying what he will do when push comes to shove. Although he has lived without money happily for 12 years, he has made no vow or promise to do it another 12 years or 12 days. One thing I can say about him is that he honestly doesn't seem to be afraid of dying, which struck me as different than most Americans and Westerners that I know. Thanks for the question!

Thanks for the reply Mark. I don't necessarily think that the fear of dying concept is essentially an East/West concept. Over the years I've met plenty of folks around the globe who are scared of dying and will hold out hope for any kind of redemption.

One other observation or perhaps question. Although Suelo essentially lives 'moniless' I'm taking it that he does aknowledge that his existence would be quite different if he had to rely on a totally moniless society? After all those internet cafes. those PC's, the roads and that bicycle had to be paid for at some time.

I think a totally moniless society would look quite different than it does today. So the mention towards PCs and Bicycles:

are we saying then technology = money? i don't think that's what we're saying, but i certainly see what you mean. technology has arisen and has only been paid for from the very beginning by the idea of money. but technology does not equate to money because technology techniquely does not need money to exist. electricity can be made from dams, which can be sent thru line, etc... and bicycles the same. I do see what you're trying to say though. Does his world change with the advent of his philosiphy being practiced worldwide? CERTAINLY i don't think that is what suelo is going for but it would be a product of universal gift and debtlessness that he practices--A society free of Guilt. A society where we just be. To not be afraid to give and not to be afraid to take.


(sidenote: we all begin our lives without money, only thru our mothers are we sustained; the whole, conscious, most beautiful gift there is!)

I think many Ascetics may find themselves in the same camp as Suelo; however, most ascetics use a temple as their home where as Suelo uses a cave i.e. nature direct.

I think society may be different in the sense of user interface. Schemers cease. People trying to get ahead, discarding the now for the future. I think this is very important. Society may still look vaguely similar from an appearance point of view;however, to be in it would be unlimited and free.

Such a great topic everyone. So much to say!

Another thought/question/observation that in some ways carries on from my last comment regarding the current societal model and how a 'moniless tribe' co-exists. Is the relationship symbiotic or parasitic? And further to that how does a truly moniless society even function. How do you evolve from thousands of years of trade? Just thinking out loud more than anything. But I do find the whole concept intriguing. We each have our own journeys - certainly my journey is different from Suelo and I think will have a different goal.


Definitely another book I have to add to the bookcase.

'

Mark Sundeen wrote:What I learned from working with Suelo was not, as I expected, that money was bad and that we should feel terrible for ever using or having any. Suelo is not a scold, and he doesn't live this way as if wearing a hairshirt. When people say, Don't you miss having money? he says something like: Does a bird miss having money? In other words, he doesn't feel like he's suffering, or going without. Instead he feels MORE FREE than ever, because instead of doing what was expected of him, he followed his heart, which was telling him to follow the teachings from Buddha, Christ, LaoTze about freeing yourself spiritually. When people ask him advice, he doesn't say quit money, or even use less money, he says, spend the time to learn what your heart wants, and follow it. So that I think is what has influenced me most about him. What I never wanted to do in this life is to work at something I hated just for money. I've been blessed to be able to work at what I love--writing, currently--and find that enough money follows so that I don't have to go out and do something else. (I also teach writing part time, and that's also something I enjoy). I've dedicated most of my life to doing things that pay poorly or not at all, and hanging out with Suelo gave me confidence to pursue those things more, to not worry if what I like isn't someone else's idea of success, and to have faith that if I follow that right livlihood, the finances will work themselves out one way or another. Great question, Kelly. Thanks!

Thanks for answering questions Mark. It's a pleasure to read your stuff. Looking forward to your new book on frugal family living!

find this extremely interesting and would like to know more about it..also would consider opening up an area of our land for people that are nomadic to pop in and out of when they would want a place to crash.

Wow Brenda?!

Perhaps another question for Mark. I noticed a brief snippet about you writing about families living frugaly. I'm not sure if you've read it or not but a few years back there was an article in M.E.N about a family in Maine that are living on something like $4k a year. I wondered if you would be researching these folks. I seem to remember they had a pretty amazing story. Anyone else remember the article?

No. It's kindof a hard one to google as well; do you remember it enough to tell the story?

Steven Fall wrote:No. It's kindof a hard one to google as well; do you remember it enough to tell the story?

I'll give it a shot

Basically it was about a family in Maine Mum, Dad and two kids and their journey to living frugaly. They had worked different full time jobs and saved up enough to buy their land cash. Can't remember if they built or the land came with a home. The story included something like 30 tips on how they lived. Everything from using the library and not having cable to shoppinig bulk seasonal vegetables, dumpster diving, goodwill shopping, exchanging services with friends and family (barter etc). I'll try to find the article and post up a link.

It reminded me of a book from the 70's called 'Homemaking on a budget' ISBN 0 7225 0399 7 - which was my mums go to book as a single parent bringing up 4 kids.

Found a reprint of the article

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/7-11-2/61531.html

Written by a chap called Craig Idlebrook - could even be a member here.

Great story link, Jeff. Thanks!

Mark Sundeen wrote:Great story link, Jeff. Thanks!

No worries Mark - glad it was useful. I'm also a big fan of the voluntary simplicity movement which IMHO is a model we should all be striving towards.

Yippee! Great list. Thankyou Jeff

I see technology enabling a moneyless society.

Basically you could travel, and stop in a town and do some weedwhacking roadsides for them, and have them issue you a credit on your cell fone, kind of like a Bitcoin credit.
That would get you a grocery store credit, and if you wanted too, you could hang out and put your labor availability up on a local Craigslist type billboard.


Not what you are discussing, but that is what i see happening.

With robotics coming, and 3D printing in every town and home, only artistic endeavors and say , jewelry design, and beautiful wood chairs will retain their value.

I went down that road, when i decided the only way to save the world is to outlaw corporations, and dissalow ownership of property by men, or business entities, including religious bodies.
Gals could have up to 3 properties, and young gals would get their first house at 18.
They could rent it out while they travel the world for the first few years of their 20"s, deciding where they wanted to live.
Then either head home, or transfer the ownership of their first home, for one at their destination.
As they gain income from their chosen profession, they could gain other properties to lease out, or to sponsor as a shop, church, 3D printing workshop, etc.

guys would spend all their time building homes, and beautiful things to put in them for the ladies.
they would also end up spending their time being nice to their sponsors, or would be shown the door.


I say, let the hippie chicks run the world. Guys have done a horrible job so far....

A world where 51% of the populace has real freedom sounds good compared to the 1% we have now. 100% sounds far better in my opinion.

I agree Bill. and Morgan:

nice. cell phone app for mobility crediitt issue. Sign has a barcode on it so all you have to do is scan.

woodworking will continue, good call.

wow, how interesting your idea about girls homes,
it's an interesting idea, to be shown the door of a house that we make. hmm i dunno buti t kinda makes sense.


umm its' hard work and takes communication. guys need a little lubrication to get the conversation started sometimes, but wonce in a while we make something really beautiful and long lasting!--aporchswing.


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