flow form molds

20 years ago, my wife and I went to the Midwest Renewable Energy Fair, in Wisconsin.

We saw a guy selling plastic clear molds for pouring your own flow forms. He had several different shapes. I tried contacting the fair office and they do not recall his name or business.

Does anyone know where I can get some molds. I would rather now import already made flow forms from NZ or Australia.

Any leads would be greatly appreciated. Thanks george

Never heard of them till now.
I would buy one and use it to make my own mold.
It's the inside that matters for the water treatment,so coat the inside of your sample with a release agent (veg oil,beeswax)and pour in the plaster of Paris.

Hey everyone, I really need to find some molds to pour my own flow forms. Does anyone have any american or canadian leads on who might sell these. any leads would be greatly appreciated, I am desperate, thanks george

I looked for some too, but they were very expensive, then I came to the conclusion the compost tea brewer should do a similar job and be more generally multi-purpose. Have you considered this option? Anyone got an informed opinion rather than just my ideas?

Please someone, does anyone know of any flow form molds available anywhere?

I really need a source, desperate. Thanks in advance, george

In an attempt to help you find what you seek, I have been looking online for flow form molds. You have probably already made a few online searches of your own.There are quite a few sites selling pre-made forms and several that have instructions for making your own. Wide range in prices for those pre-made forms.

Bohemian Stoneworks in Sebastopol, CA may be of interest.

Pinterest has some great do-it-yourself flow forms. I don't know how instructional they are.

Permaculture News has a bit of information on a search on their site. (Including a butt mold.)

And, I did find more discussion in this Permies thread and in this Permies thread also.

Now, I must say, to find that exact vendor from a fair 20 years ago is a long shot. (I did quite a few searches for the fair vendors present 20 years ago and around that time too.) They may very well be out of business, maybe...maybe not. I don't know, but I hope you are not as set on finding them as you are just finding good molds (without international shipping).

I wish you much luck finding your molds. Posting to this thread will keep it bumped up to the top, so hopefully someone with better information than I will chime in soon.

I know this is not what you are looking for but this product might be used to make what you want and they offer some videos on how to:

http://www.shapecrete.com/projects


This is from one of the permie links provided above:

"You could probly make a mold out of Dirt, then pour concrete over the shape in the dirt, let it dry, and clean the dirt out of the bottom part when its dry. "


Another thought would be to contact a local school or college.  Their art department might have a pottery class that might make the mold for you.


This might give you some ideas:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Easy-to-make-concrete-bowls-and-planters/


I found this to be informative and has some useful links at the bottom:

http://johnrolandpenner.com/Articles/Flowforms.html


Just trying to give you and other readers some idea for an alternative to the molds.

hello folks, l want to thank all those who contributed, but I am still stuck. Yes, I will try molding from scratch, but.............

Does anyone know of any plastic molds for pouring flow forms?  Like I mentioned before, I did meet a guy at a Midwest Renewable Energy fair 20 years ago. He had all sorts of shapes and sizes. clear reusable plastic molds. The current fair staff locked though old programs and found nothing.

Please anyone, I am a cronic diy type of person, buying 400lb pre made flow forms from New Zealand, kills me. Please, anyone?

thanks george

You have links above and advice to make molds out of sand or soil.

I had to go to ebay to check on my purchases so I thought I would see what  I could find.

Now I know this is not what you are looking for, though maybe several put in a row tilted so they flow into each other might work:

-Bird-Bath-Top-Stone-Plastic-Production-Mold-Concrete

or this:

/Crete-Mold-concrete-molds-fiberglass-fire-bowls/

If

Rebecca, yes, lots of info has been provided on pouring my own molds. I have poured lots of other things, I get that part. I have poured many elaborate house foundations, countertops, sinks, etc. I know how to build things inside out and work backwards. I know what release agents are, I have done some sand casting. I do not need help there.

I simply do not know the shape of the required flow forms. There are many different styles, they are so unique that they their shape cannot be conveyed from a simple picture. They cannot be mathematically described either. They are unique. Sure I could guess and experiment, but I have too much other work to do. We farm full time, about to start the cropping season.

I just want to buy some plastic molds and get going. The fact that I saw some at a renewable energy fair 20 years ago leads me to believe there are some out there somewhere. I am trying to say this politely, but sometimes I find the biodynamic "industry" keeps it's cards close to its chest and rarely share info for the diy type of people. for example, two day courses at $1000 a day may be good value for money, but my farm cannot afford that. Shipping pre made molds from new zealand is ridiculous. That is why we grow organic grain for our animals because we do not believe all the imported "organic" feed from china and india is very organic after travelling around the world. I know this is off topic, but please, someone must know someone with some molds for sale.

thanks in advance for any leads. george

George Wright wrote:Rebecca, yes, lots of info has been provided on pouring my own molds. I have poured lots of other things, I get that part. I have poured many elaborate house foundations, countertops, sinks, etc. I know how to build things inside out and work backwards. I know what release agents are, I have done some sand casting. I do not need help there.

I simply do not know the shape of the required flow forms. There are many different styles, they are so unique that they their shape cannot be conveyed from a simple picture. They cannot be mathematically described either. They are unique. Sure I could guess and experiment, but I have too much other work to do. We farm full time, about to start the cropping season.

I just want to buy some plastic molds and get going. The fact that I saw some at a renewable energy fair 20 years ago leads me to believe there are some out there somewhere. I am trying to say this politely, but sometimes I find the biodynamic "industry" keeps it's cards close to its chest and rarely share info for the diy type of people. for example, two day courses at $1000 a day may be good value for money, but my farm cannot afford that. Shipping pre made molds from new zealand is ridiculous. That is why we grow organic grain for our animals because we do not believe all the imported "organic" feed from china and india is very organic after travelling around the world. I know this is off topic, but please, someone must know someone with some molds for sale.

thanks in advance for any leads. george

Honestly, im my experience, it's insanely hard to find flowform molds in the US. I have looked for years and not found it. The best bet I can offer is to find someone who has one and make your own mold of it and then work from there. For your own info, I know it's not useful at all in the short term, they can be described mathematically using a thing called projective geometry and it's fairly complicated. You can read an explanation of that in the book 'energizing water', but I didn't find the description of the mathematical method particularly understandable. Just so you know a source. I have dreams of getting around to getting a mold of a friend of mine's flowform (he bought it from a manufacturer who no longer seems to be operating) and if I do I will post here and try to get you some.

hey thanks stephen. not knowing they are just around the corner is good to know, the fact that you have tried to looks makes me feel better that I had not been simply missing them somehow. I have read Wilkes books and in particular the last one on energizing water and know the section using projective geometry well. Lots there, but like you said, tough to transfer to a mold or a flow form. I really appreciate the answer, you may not have solved it, but definitely makes me feel better. Thanks, if I find anything, I will post it to you, thanks again, george

Hey george, this thread inspired me to look around again and it looks like flowform.net has updated their website and is now listing products (some even cast in california) but a cursory glance doesn't make it clear what prices are or how you can order them. I would imagine that you have to contact them and sort out your order. It's quite frustrating how there is a seemingly universal refusal of the people who manufacture these things to be even remotely convenient to deal with. But I hope this lead helps.

Hey anyone think of anything?  still need a source for molds.

I have been experimenting with antique tractor seats, just gotta get my dispensing from one to another more finely, without spilling.

any thoughts out there?

thanks george

Only two companies have the patented rights to sell Flowforms in the US. I used to work for bohemian “stoneswork”... Concrete is disgusting. I would like to make them out of glazed ceramic or carve them out of stone if I had the molds..

Hi George,

A really brief search pulled this up. I hope it helps. There was some mention of casting being done in NZ, the UK, and California, with delivery available anywhere.

At worst, you can ship one that suits your needs from California, cast a mould from that, and make as many as you like.

Personally, I would just look deeper into the research and try your own hand at it. If it's so important that you be able to use this technique, it won't hurt to understand it on a more practical level. It literally shouldn't take more than examining the natural water features you're trying to emulate and replicating them in microcosm.

If you look into it, nothing really magical is happening, and everything I have found on the subject couches explanations in quasi-mystical phraseology, somewhat reminiscent of the language surrounding biodynamics. I think one could easily do as well with a series of cascading basins, perhaps with some thought to encouraging vortices within those basins, and perhaps pulsing the flow of water.

I like the idea behind flow forms. I like that it accords with everything that, for instance, Sepp Holzer says about how water should move on the land to increase its vitality, which I have always taken to mean increasing natural oxygenation.

I think I prefer creating actual water features with aspects of natural hydrology, like falls into basins and cascades over pebbles, that would likely do the same thing. I would love a pond at the head of such a system with a jet pump to shoot a plume of water into the air, to come down, for the most part, back within the pond. Perhaps it could be programmed to "pulse" as required by some flow form systems, perhaps even to music!

I think these flow form people aren't selling the idea right. A colour-changing LED setup, some garden speakers, maybe multiple pulsing jet pumps shooting water into the air, all set to respond to music and noise of any kind, such that, in passive mode, the light and pulsations might respond subtly to the natural environment, and the pulsations would sync up with the music when I might pump Bach through the garden speakers. Or imagine a garden party! Or a concert!

Okay, maybe that will be my garden. If the tangent had a point, I think it would be to learn as much about why flow forms work as they do, and about the natural systems they're based upon, and then tailor your approach to stuff you have and your specific situation (you said something about tractor seats?). A flow form could easily be a fountain-like sculptural feature in a pond or basin that is mistaken for (or recognised as) art.

If you are experimenting with something specific, and I would love to hear more about that, it would be cool if you could post some pics. Keep us posted, and good luck.

-CK

Unless you manage to find exactly what you are looking for (plastic form mold) you will indeed have to make your own.

You can use a large block of wood and make the plug by carving the shapes you desire in that then use a vacuum bag or table to create your plastic mold (you have to heat the plastic first) since it sounds to me like you just have to have a plastic mold as opposed to a fiberglass or rubber one.

Keep in mind that the theory is still under investigation and not fully proofed at this point in time.
They do make pretty water features though.

For the simplest form get two hard balls (rubber or what have you) and place them touching and press into a wet sand bed, when you remove them you will have a reverse of a nice flow form that you can fill with plaster to get the plug for mold making.

I'm pretty sure Geoff Lawton once said that human buttocks are the perfect shape to take a mold from for making flow forms.

He might be skinnier than me though...

I was going to use that example Burra, but then I used balls to take the place of the glutes.

I'm also interested in this topic. maybe we can use a 3D CAD program to design an Open Source Flowform ? That would be pretty sweet

Edit: I found this thread on the forum of someone actually using their own butt as a mold for a flowform. Looks like everyone had a glute time
https://permies.com/t/30877/Geoff-Lawton-Cold-Climate-Permaculture#240055

Good news, I found this: https://grabcad.com/library/flowform-3d-model-miroma-02-1

Bryant RedHawk wrote:Unless you manage to find exactly what you are looking for (plastic form mold) you will indeed have to make your own.

You can use a large block of wood and make the plug by carving the shapes you desire in that then use a vacuum bag or table to create your plastic mold (you have to heat the plastic first) since it sounds to me like you just have to have a plastic mold as opposed to a fiberglass or rubber one.

Keep in mind that the theory is still under investigation and not fully proofed at this point in time.
They do make pretty water features though.

For the simplest form get two hard balls (rubber or what have you) and place them touching and press into a wet sand bed, when you remove them you will have a reverse of a nice flow form that you can fill with plaster to get the plug for mold making.

Have you read 'energizing water' Dr.? I feel like you may have said that you had on another thread. Either way, it's a summary of flowform research up to about 2012? or there abouts and for my money it about fully proofs the theory. They show clear increases in growth and germination as well as more efficient use of water by plants. How exactly it works still seems to be up in the air but as far as I can tell the theory has been proven.

I also just want to add that I got to use my buddies flow form to mix some biodynamic preps this year, and whether the mystical vortices of homeopathic steer manure compost with actually do anything to the garden or not they sure as heck made me feel special. It is really a wonderful thing to watch the way the cascade shifts from chaotic tumult to orderly rhythm. Very peaceful.

Hi George
If you’re still searching for resources, try

http://flowform.net/

Hope it helps.
Mel

Well I sent them an email asking about pricing but the website looks much more active and updated than it did just last year and there are full color and picture catalogues in there, just without pricing info. I will certainly report back about my experience with them and if it's an actual source.

I am also pursuing another avenue, this person apparently inherited a wide variety of molds and is interested in producing them in quantity and just today told me that the project is moving forward slowly and he'll update me in they get operational. That is in Canada so it might be a bit cheaper shipping. I think these folks are in new zealand.

Anyhow hopefully I can get a small ag flowform before this season starts

Thanks Mel and Stephen.

I have gotten no where in the meantime. Their site looks much better, I liked the more utilitarian plastic/fibreglass molds, for nothing other than shipping clear across the world. My son is taking Industrial Design at our local university and is learning all about materials and molding. Amazing to see your kids have much more knowledge than you, which means, they caught up, and have left you in the dust. And I thought I was curious.

Thanks for the help everyone, certainly interested in everything you find Stephen. I am not interested in any business, just building something for our farm.

Thanks for keeping this alive. george

Re flowform moulds. I can't remember where I saw this now, it was a number of years ago; there was a short clip of a video where people were making flow forms by free shaping. The conclusion was that the optimum shape was pretty much defined by the contours of a human bum.

I can't find it now - youtube seems to have been overrun with really pretty artsy flowform videos. This one gives the best sense of the style that a "bumform" version might take. Broad dishes that flow into each other down a shallow slope.

I just got the pricelist from them. Impressive. The person was very polite and explained things well. I might jump on it. Thanks for everyone's help, no molds, but a source of affordable forms.

Another related quesiton:

Is there a design of water pump that does not destroy water energization?

I have an artesian well that can flow though the forms without pumping, but cannot be captured in a place where it does not have to be pumped. I could reverse it, pump it up high first, into the forms and then gravity feed it to where I need it. The first would be easier, but if the pump is going to destroy all I have gained in the energization, perhaps I should avoid it. I primarily want the forms to liberate some sulphur, so that would be accomplished either way.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

george

George, I also just got their price list and was amazed at how reasonably priced the agricultural models are. I will attach the PDF for others to look at.

As far as a pump, in Energizing Water they talk a little bit about working on that problem and the researchers theorized that a pump based on an Archimedian Screw would be ideal but they don't present any working models or any trials to suggest that any old pump won't work. My thoughts on it, and my plans, are to use a pump that I have that was designed to be safe for biology (specifically beneficial nematodes, but they are some of the largest biology you will get in a tea) on the assumption that if it doesn't rip up my hyphae or my nematodes it must be maintaining some of the integrity.  I think in general though that the effect of the flowform isn't so fickle that it dissipates as soon as the water is handled another way. I know from talking to my friend that works on inline water structuring technology that various models of that recommend a maximum length of straight pipe before the water is used of between 300 and 1000 feet. My assumption is that these large forms provide more organization that those inline units, but this is just my intuition not a studied truth.

Exciting times if these are really going to be easily available and relatively cheap.

I just heard back from the folks and was told that I could get a 3 Glonn PETG (food safe plastic) shipped to me for 590 USD. This is a smaller, portable, agricultural model meant to be used for making teas in the field. There is still nothing confirmed and I don't have anything in hand (which in flowform world seems to mean that you may never get anything) but this is the farthest I've gotten in the process of ordering one so I will update as it progresses. So far though this seems very much like a real option for folks who would like a flow form.

Just got the shipping confirmation from the folks down in New Zealand. We shall see how long it takes but it appears that there is a genuine source for flowforms now

So my order arrived. I have to say that, unfortunately it was a bit dissapointing. In spite of some of the confirmation emails including an attachment the demonstrated how to put the stand together and mount the forms and plumbing, and despite no mention being made to me throughout the process, what arrived was simply 3 forms. apparently I am expected to procure the material and fab the stand. They did send me CAD plans for the parts but it is not something I am familiar with doing nor something that I planned on having to do. What seemed like a reasonable price now seems like a horrible deal.

The forms also seem thinner and less durable than others that I have interacted with. I am pretty disappointed honestly. But, that said, they are actually manufacturing the molds and they are actually responding to inquiries and shipping these molds. Unfortunately they aren't being super clear about you can actually expect to receive and I fear that will likely alienate many customers. I really wish they were just producing full kits, this model of just selling what are essentially pieces seems unlikely to be appealing to any farmer or gardener that is on the fence about this fairly obscure technology.