Lina Joana

I am curious - in several places, I have seen the claim that this system is “more likely to get approved” in areas where outhouses are illegal. Wondering if there is anything to actually support this? It seems to me that sheds housing barrels of poop in the back yard is not the sort of thing that suburban departments of making you sad would want to see… had anyone talked to city/county officials in any location about this? Is there an example of approval? Would the calculus change in areas prone to, for example, tornados and hurricanes?

Tammy Mayer wrote:

Reading this whole thread, and these specific ideas about earthworm systems makes me want to learn more about the earthworm system. I'm still a novice with all this. I have used a composting toilet before, but never owned or managed one...

Paul, how does the earthworm system compare to the willow system? Also, isn't there a benefit to putting the poop in the garden, which is lost if we feed the poop to a willow tree? Isn't it better to use that humanure rather than 'waste' it feeding a willow tree?

(Also we don't have space for a willow tree in our yard, as we're trying to turn the whole property into a Food Forest, and we already have too many non-food trees: ginkgo, red beech, massive pine and some yews.)

Here is a summary of the earthworm system:
https://www.earthwormsoc.org.uk/VermicompostingToilets

It is very different, and has some definite limitations of configuration (for example, your toilet has to be above ground level). Its advantages over the willow feeder and traditional composting toilet are - no carrying buckets/trash cans of poop! This is the part most people balk at, I think. Since it is a living system, it will still need some care- but since the tank is outside, I can envision outsourcing that, the way we do septic tank pumping. It uses a regular flush toilet - that means water usage, which is a disadvantage, but potentially can be mitigated through grey water reuse. If you actually don’t mind carrying the contents of a composting toilet, I think an earthworm system is a good humanure option, that would mitigate concerns over open piles. The advantage over the willow feeder would be not having to store waste for two years - worms work fast. The disadvantage would be needing to regulate the temp of the system.
  As far as using humanure/aged poop from the willow feeder on veggies - i think a lot of that is individual. If done correctly, either system should get rid of pathogens. But is someone in the house on meds, or detoxing from lead exposure, or whatnot? Maybe that isn’t actually a problem, but it worries some folks.

Ooof. I know it is a very subjective thing, but I have trouble imagining a majority of the population thinking that hauling around garbage cans of poop- both fresh and aged - on a regular basis is going to feel like luxury. I suspect that most folks, when faced with the prospect of storing garbage cans full of their poop for two years, would try reeeealy hard to scrape that 50k together.
Another thing to consider: should you need to sell your home, a broken septic system and a shed holding 2 years of feces would likely lower the sale price by the amount it would cost to fix the septic and haul away the waste. So you wouldn’t have to pay put of pocket, but it would be a wash in the end.
I am not saying that willow feeders don’t work, or aren’t a good solution in some situations. But as far as widespread adoption, it seems like you would need a pretty major breakdown of our current systems to convince people that willow feeders are superior to less hands on systems.
To me, the earthworm systems have the most promise. They mimic the flush systems that folks are used to, are extremely good at dealing with pathogens, and I suspect much of the maintenance could be automated.

Pepe Una wrote:Is this for real? I haven't bought anything in plastic for more than 6 months now and there's nothing hard about it... And I'm living in Ecuador, where there's practically no consciousness about environement, plastic is sold all around and they even eat in the street out of plastic bags. If I made it six months here, why is it so hard in US???

Perhaps you would share details of how your packaging works? How is meat wrapped, how does oil come packaged (in the us, even glass bottles and tins often have plastic pour spouts/lids), how are staples packaged? Do you have bulk stores? What about things like light bulbs, housewares (thinking bed sheets), and other house maintenance items?
  Really curious about other countries.

Charli Wilson wrote:
Feeding the cats is an ethical nightmare and I haven't worked out a good affordable way yet. They eat raw but I have to buy it pre minced as I don't have and cannot afford a grinder, and even if I had one where would I get affordable meat for it? The butchers won't supply scraps so I'd be buying premium muscle meat.

Is this the right place for this post? I'm not offering advice or support or inspiration- more asking for it!

Meat of any kind is really hard. Butchers will often grind it for you, but they still hand it over in a plastic bag, as that is a waterproof way of containing potentially pathogenic liquids. I know there are plastic free ways to do it, but I have seldom seen it in the US. The closest was some custom butchered venison I was gifted. It wasn’t vacuum sealed in plastic, but wrapped in paper- which was STILL coated with plastic on one side. So yeah, meat for himans and animals is tough unless you butcher yourself - and probably not much at a time, to avoid freezer burn.

There may be a correlation between intelligence and the desire to be/certainty that you are right. However, that does not mean they are the same thing. Many intelligent people are wise enough to realize that they don’t have a monopoly on truth, and to see the big picture complexity in a situation that makes “right” and “wrong “ overly simplistic.
Lets take an example that has been oft discussed on this site: dishwashers.
Imagine I fall in love with someone who is excited to live with me and build a permaculture paradise together. However, I am a big believer in hand washing dishes because it is more efficient and, furthermore, that chores need to be evenly split. My partner may even believe that it saves a bit of water, but hates doing dishes, and feel that the time would be better spent in the garden. If I insist my partner yield, won’t that make them my slave? On the other hand, if I end the relationship and live by myself, am I saving energy? Yes my dishwashing is more efficient, but I am living alone, which massively increases my energy use. If I shrug and say “ok, bit if extra energy here is worth it”, everyone is probably better off, including my environmental footprint.

Donna Ratliff wrote:I know my neighbors but they pretty much stay to themselves and I never see any women outside doing the work that I do. I grow all my.l own produce in no till garden, use my tractor to cut the grass in my yard and pasture and yes so till only where I grow my corn and sweet potatoes. So im outside alot during warm months. So does anyone have any ideas on how a woman my age can meet a friend or two? I've tried the churches around here but didn't really care for it. I do my Bible stidy at home. Any tips are appreciated. It gets lonely sometimes but I have to stay busy so thar doesn't happen. Ps. I have no family here. I was a single lady when I sold everything I had to move out of my home state to retire and live this lifestyle. Though it would be really nice to have atleast a friend two. Thank you.

Rural areas are hard - some communities can be very insular.
A few suggestions: some churches have craft groups, food pantries, and other outreach programs. It depends on the church, but some of them welcome non-church members. Something like that, either a common interest or a volunteer opportunity, can be a great way to meet like minded folks. You might also see if there is a local community on nextdoor.com. Events are often listed there, see what strikes your fancy.
Another suggestion- do you particularly like any of your neighbors? Had a conversation that left you smiling? If so, it never hurts to drop off some extra produce. Maybe invite them over to dinner. I often find that you need to make the first, second, and third move with people. Not because they don’t want friendship, but because they are busy, their house is too messy for company, etc….

Blake Lenoir wrote:What's up! Wanna find out if there are any true native mulberries available at any nursery and I'm talking about American ones. Anybody know of any sources for American mulberries to help restore the native population and keep the non native in check? How could we separate the non native vs the true native?

Sure - just look online for “morus rubra for sale”. Cold stream farm nursery has them, and others as well. I don’t know how likely any place is to have them “pure”, ie not hybridized, but I did read that in most places the red and white mulberries have different bloom times, so maybe it is less likely than we think.
Just a note - planting red mulberries won’t really keep white mulberries “in check”. White mulberries grow well in disturbed soil, so don’t really occupy the same niche as red mulberries. They aren’t directly competing. All for planting more of them though!

Icebreakers can be good, but after a certain age, it will be hard to get buy-in. For me, meeting someone new at a large party is hard - the noise and distractions make it hard to focus and sometimes even hear!
Here is an option that will take longer, but end up more organic: start small. If you have a few neighbors you think will like each other, invite them for a cookout, drinks, game night, whatever. Keep the group small enough that there will mostly just be one circle - about 6 people, I would say.
Next time, invite a few more people from a different set. Hopefully leaving out a few from the first set if you can do so without hurting feelings. Once you have made connections between several groups, they will naturally mingle even at a large block party, and bring other members of their group with them.

Something I might try - maple herbal vinegar. The niter is mostly precipitated minerals, right? If they dissolve in vinegar, you might end up with a high mineral tonic - people use clean eggshells to make bone vinegar, maybe niter would be similar?