Lina Joana

Alexandra Malecki wrote:
Lina -- thank you! I had hoped to share more about my better half and my kids on this thread but I'm afraid I haven't done it justice. A few days ago my husband and I were discussing what our next steps are because we had anticipated a certain outcome that hasn't come to fruition.  

Hey, maybe the Otis thing will still work out! I imagine most senior homesteaders are not regularly checking the pep2 page, perhaps they simply haven’t noticed. And if not- something else will come up!

Thanks for sharing your journey! I look forward to hearing whether the otis portion of the program works out or not, though the knowledge is valuable regardless.

I am a big fan of comfrey applied to the injury. We actually make and sell a salve made with comfrey and calendula infused oil for muscle and skin injuries. If you have it growing you can make a very effective poultice by chopping the leaves in a bit of water, then wrapping the leaf mass in a cloth and applying it to the sore spot. Works with dried too. It is not a miracle cure, but it certainly speeds the healing - my mother had a bruise that encircled her entire arm, and used comfrey on the front half. The different was stark.
If the pain is due to a muscle spasm rather than an actual injury, I use either black haw, cramp bark, or the nomospazms blend from this site.
Really, the best preventative I have found for most of my muscle issues is to maintain a strong core. Carrying my kid in a well supported back carrier did away with most of my back pain, because my core muscles got so strong!  I have a whole set of situps, planks, and other exercises I am supposed to do, but I never think of it until I am in pain…

paul wheaton wrote:

I feel like the bootcamp is a solution for millions of people.  And we cap out at 20.  

I would think the bootcamp would be jam-packed-full right now with a huge waiting list.  But ... nope.  

Oh man… it feels so completely obvious to me, yet so hard to express… let me give it another go.

First, start with an assumption that is nearly universal in the usa, and partially correct: manual labor is not hard to learn. There is skilled work - construction, woodworking, the “trades”  - that are acknowledged to take knowledge and experience. Then there is Chopping wood, digging ditches, peeling logs, that can be learned in a couple of hours on the job. Farming is a funny one - most “educated” people will unconsciously think it can’t be that hard. Farmers know better, but they already have the skills. So right or wrong, those millions of people who would benefit are already going to be skeptical that they need even a shitty school to learn the skills.

given that assumption: what does the bootcamp look like from the outside? I have looked at it in a fairly superficial manner. I looked over the initial website, and I looked at a BEL thread or two. This probably isn’t a complete picture, but it may not be far off from what someone stumbling on it might see. And while I don’t see it the way I describe it below, I think it is a fair picture of what others do.

What I saw was “learn homesteading skills and get a free bunk and food!” Ok, what are the homesteading skills? I saw splitting and stacking wood, building fence, peeling logs, planting trees and seed, harvesting rhubarb, and maybe a bit of repair work on one of the buildings. I did not see any indication that I would be learning, say, woodworking or building from a master. It certainly isn’t an apprenticeship with a skilled artisan. It sounds like a little of this and a little of that, with most of it being low skill manual labor that you could learn to do in a day. But I am being encouraged to stay for a year or more, to “learn the skills”.
At this point, the question comes up: “so I am basically spending the first week learning low skill labor, followed by months of doing that work, generating resources and building up land that is owned by one guy? That sounds a lot like my hard work is  benefiting someone else, and I don’t even get a salary.”


Again, I know that this is not what is happening! For one thing, I know that the work the boots do is not directly benefitting Paul unplumbed, unpowered buildings don’t add much to land value. Nor do hugels. So there is almost no benefit to Paul directly, and if he does get anything, he probably pays way more than its value in food costs.

But to the casual observer, it is going to sound a lot like the Otis offers to the pep2 person as described in the live stream: “come to my place and put your muscle into improving my land for me, and then we will say goodby, and I will reap the benefits of your labor”.

Don’t know if this makes sense. My hope is that it does, and that it might offer some insight into how to market the program so that it sounds more appealing to those who would benefit. Like emphasizing the skills people don’t feel they could learn on their own.

People actually settling down on an acre is a whole different issue. It also goes back to what Alexandra was saying on the live stream: she isn’t just looking for a place to live, she wants the security of ownership, and something to pass on to her kids. No idea how to solve that.

paul wheaton wrote:

Next in the series of compounding opinions ....      what does one do today to prepare?  I suggest gertitude.  And to get there, it would be wise to explore the SKIP program, or the bootcamp.   At which point it is pointed out that my opinions are because I am really a shill and wanna make money on these.  I then point out that they are both free (although the bootcamp does have an application fee).  I think the college stuff we are talking about is definitely NOT free.  


I feel a bit abused to get so much hostility when trying to help people.  

Oh well ...  i guess i really need to stick to permies only.  

First off, thanks for posting the live stream. Highly enjoyable conversation!

Second - I don’t know if it was my “people don’t wanna live like this” comments you mentioned as unkind, but I apologize if they were. It was never my intention to suggest the lifestyle you are advocating is in any way bad. I do think it is important to think about where folks are coming from when wondering why a program like bootcamp doesn’t have a hige waiting list.

Finally, I am sorry you are feeling abused by the responses. I do think that it is human nature not to believe in massive changes for the worse like this, where a strategy that has worked well for generations, and weathered major shifts already (like the computer and internet revolutions, and multiple economic upheavals), is suddenly going to be a liability. So your message will naturally be met with disbelief - it isn’t personal. Just gotta hope you make people think and prepare even a little…

paul wheaton wrote:

I am then asked about health care in the bootcamp.  

For whatever college the woman was headed to, what is the health care there?  What is the cost of the college, the cost of the housing and the cost of food?

Yep. If she does not have family support, she has maybe 3 options: 1) use loans to pay for insurance and other living expenses, 2) go to school part time, and pay for living expenses from current salary, or 3) maybe save enough to pay for the costs - depending how much they are.
3 is the only option for bootcamp. If you are going to have fun and learn some stuff for a summer, having enough saved isn’t a big deal. If you end up staying for years or decades - yeah, it’s a big deal.

paul wheaton wrote:

And there was mention of people with a lot of stuff that might need to be stored for the bootcamp.   Would it need to be stored for college?.

A woman returning to college will probably keep on in whatever home she has, and keep using her stuff.
I did not mean to suggest that college does not also require resources. Maybe my point was too obvious - totally broke people are not coming to bootcamp for the room and board. The people you are looking for have a certain level of affluence, and hence have options - college, trade school, a job, woofing, backpacking through Switzerland, etc.

paul wheaton wrote:

When a person has baseboard heaters, or natural gas heat and pay $3000 per winter, do they call that "work"?

Yes, of course! The goal of a job is that after a year of work, you have paid for room, board, bills, and fun, and still come out ahead financially. The goal of of collegp is to work (yes, work) to gain the skills you need to get a job that lets you come out ahead.

I gotta allow the people that just wanna be here for a few months if I am eventually gonna find the people that will be here for ten years or more.

What resources does your ideal 10 year person come in with? I listed the expenses I could imagine - health care, visits to family, technology, purchases for the homestead, an exit strategy. Do you disagree with that list? Do you believe (or have you seen) people stay for years without savings?

paul wheaton wrote:
Work?  I hope that nobody sees it as work.  It is a chance to grow your own food and build your own shelter.  At a pretty easy pace.  

Might have to agree to disagree there. Splitting wood and peeling logs is the kind of thing I love to do, but it is still work. Especially if you have to do it to stay warm, and can’t wander off after an hour.

paul wheaton wrote:

I think the bootcamp is amazing for existing gardeners, natural builders and homesteaders that love to create.  Now there are people that do it with you, five days a week.

I think the bootcamp is the foundation for retiring to a gert package.  

Your words seem to be about getting a person into the workforce.  I think the bootcamp is about getting people out of the workforce and into retirement.

But how many young adults dream of retiring to that humble a home before they’ve done much else? Or, going back to the root of this thread - how many believe that the world is about to implode so that this is their best option? My thesis is that most folks in their early 20’s are likely to want a life that requires some money. So, they are thinking in terms of career, or at least marketable skills. Convincing them that going to rural Montana to grow their own food is a good way to start their adult life is gonna be an uphill battle.

paul wheaton wrote:

Another angle:  A lot of people want to get into homesteading.  They buy land, put years in, and burn out.  They then sell everything for less than they paid.  The bootcamp is a far better path:  cheaper to get into and there is no loss.  Building a style of community at a pace that dodges the burnout issues.

I guess I am not sure what you are advocating - do you want to see most boots come and stay forever? Or do they come and hang out, build skills and then move on?
If the latter, you haven’t quite solved the problem. If the former - yikes. I would not do that, or suggest anyone else do so, without a significant nest egg - enough to cover any health or other emergencies, and all the other expenses that come up, as well as enough to start over if at some point they feel like they want a different life in a different place. Oh, and enough for flights to family, unless you are local to the Missoula area. I bought a sepper package when they first came out, and the looked at flights to Missoula. Whew!!! They were pricey. Doubt I will ever redeem it.
Problem is, by the time you have that much money, you probably have other ties, like a partner and kids, which make something like bootcamp hard. Or maybe you are just set in your ways and would find the rules of the lab confining.
I guess my feeling is that gardening gardeners programs, like self sufficient lifestyles in general, will remain very much a niche thing up until the shit actually hits the fan (the world would be a better place if this weren’t true, but there it is). At that point - assuming people can still travel, it will probably become very popular for the reasons you listed, such as the structure and community and free food.

Another question- say you stay a boot long enough to get an acre of land. Will you still have access to the boot workforce? That is, will bootcamp help you build and maintain your house, install the gardens, and lighten the load of getting the homestead off the ground? Sorry if I missed how this is handled, but I assume that if it fills up, not every boot who stays can get an allerton abby.

Tereza Okava wrote:

Maybe that opens up more possibilities for gardener type situations. As it is, I can't believe people aren't beating a path to Wheaton Labs for the chance to have a place to live AND learn stuff.

Really? I can, and I say that as a long time listener of the podcast and participant/supporter of permies, who thinks the bootcamp sounds fun and useful.

Think about the prerequisites. You need to be healthy, unattached (no family of pet commitments), and have enough resources to store any stuff you have and pay for transport and expenses while you are there. I’d guess mostly 20-somethings from at least somewhat affluent backgrounds.
  What is that demographic looking for? To sleep in a bunkhouse and get food in exchange for 40 hrs of work per week? Without pot or alcohol? (sorry, don’t mean to imply that kids just want to party) Now of course you are learning things. Are those marketable skills? Is anyone going to pay you a living wage to split wood by hand, build junk pole fences, harvest rhubarb in a homestead setting? Bootcamp doesn’t set you up for a career in our current society, and doesn’t pretend to. From my understanding of the the program, it teaches you to run a small homestead mostly by hand, with occasional use of the excavator and tractor. In order for this to seem like the best career option, you have to have a prepper mindset (assume societal collapse in the next few years) and assume that whatever comes after the collapse wil make homesteading a better option than 20 years of food and ammo in a nuclear proof underground bunker.

Or you just think that is fun, or you are called to the lifestyle. The fact that bootcamp is not empty obviously means a certain number of folks find it worth the trip. And I am glad they do - I think it is a worthy endeavor! But I don’t expect huge numbers of people to flock there, when I consider the current situation .

I guess the ultimate question is this: are we at a point where the kind of life most people want will soon be out of reach?
Lets face it: the gert life, even the life of a skipper who gets ahold of larger property for farming, will sound great to people on this site. It will not sound great to the majority of Americans, many of whom are freaked out by the idea that their carrots ever touched dirt.
At the risk of over generalizing, I think that the majority of Americans consider a nice house with flush toilets, automatic thermostats, purchased food, and a Netflix subscription to be prerequisites for a comfortable life. To maintain these things and cover other expenses throughout life, you need a stable job with a decent income. Historically and even today, people with those jobs are far more likely to have a university degree. Is that about to flip? Are the white collar jobs about to become so rare, and standard of living so low, that growing your own food on a few acres with an RMH and willow feeder and an income way below the poverty line is actually your best option even if you don’t like gardening, despise building fires, and gag at the thought of a bucket of aged poop?
I honestly don’t know. It is hard to imagine. To me, it seems more likely that we will see an extension of the computer era: computers automated a lot of jobs (human computers, hand accounting, research aides) but created so many more by expanding what was possible. Maybe AI will do the same. Or maybe it will collapse under its own energy needs. Or maybe we really will see massive unemployment of college degree holders, beyond anything that went before. Wish I had a crystal ball.

Alexandra Malecki wrote:I did the university path. I graduated in 3 years and had 2 full academic scholarships. I also had internships at an Engineering company every summer (2 out of 3 summers I also had a food service job after leaving my internship). I graduated with <$7000 of debt that I was able to pay off within 4 months (meaning I didn't pay interest) after graduating. A college degree in Mech Eng really paid off for me. I was able to save for a down payment and afford my first house plus rental (I purchased a duplex but I don't advise getting an FHA loan because fighting to refinance to a conventional loan was nearly impossible -- though I was successful) when I was 22 which was really helpful for building equity in the real estate world before prices for an entry-level home became out of reach for my peers. Honestly, I look around at my peers and don't know how they're supposed to make it, forget about the future of young 20s right now. A lot of my peers travel with their disposable income instead of saving it because their forward outlook is so dismal. Most people I have these kind of conversations with have accepted that they will continue to work until the day they die. This is the new norm.

If someone were to have told me that SKIP was an alternative to college back when I was 18, I would NOT have considered it. I needed financial stability and independence to improve my circumstances. Plus I knew nothing about permaculture or gardening or the presence of toxic gick everywhere, etc. Also, there's no guarantee that someone will just fork over everything to someone they've never met - that wouldn't haven't worked for 18-year old me.

Sounds like you did a variation of ERE - earn a professional salary for awhile, invest wisely, get land, and set up a frugal lifestyle so that the income from non-homestead sources covers your expenses. That is pretty similar to me.
What I still have not seen, is someone living on a few thousand a year because all their food comes from the land and they sell the surplus and maybe consult once a year, so that the only assets they need are the house and land, and they only need to work the homestead half time most of the year. Wish I had seen it.
It seems like in order to make that lifestyle work, the examples I have seen need some sort of external income, for security and the unexpected and expected costs that always come up.
That is why I hesitate to make a blanket statement of “don’t go to college”. Think carefully about what you are good at, and don’t go into major debt for it, sure. But the fact is, while college is not a guaranteed higher income, it is a prerequisite. If you want to earn enough to buy land then an accountant, lawyer, or engineer is going to earn it faster than a welder - assuming they are good, and can find a job. SKIP? Maybe. But that is really new, and we don’t know how many Otises will cave to family pressures, or need to sell to pay for end of life care, or decide the skipper isn’t worthy after all… and I suspect the number of otises is small compared to the number of people in the USA considering college. Plus, completing the farming portion of SKIP requires access to land and and excavator, which you might not have as a high school graduate. So that is problematic as well.
There are, of course, other ways to do it, especially if you are young, strong, and unattached. “Walden on wheels” had some great examples- the guy went 100k into debt on a useless degree, then payed it back by working on logging crews, Alaskan camps- jobs that paid ok and, crucially, included room and board in locations without opportunities to spend money. If he had done that without the college debt, he could have been well set up, if land was his dream.
It is a scary time right now. No one is sure how things will shake out with AI and the economy overall. Sadly, a lot of passive income ideas, like writing a book, making digital art, or stock photography are likely to be the first to disappear as AI products flood the market. More complex jobs that require human interaction will be later, and -I expect - skilled physical jobs will be last. But the timeline for all that? No idea.