Sarah Joubert

Hello Sam.
Yesterday I ran across Benjamin who commented on the lack of movement in the Iberica forum so I thought I'd head over and check developements. Seems like it was timeous-welcome!
We moved to Tarragona 5years ago this July. I had also spent years researching the climate, rainfall patterns etc. I hadn't followed actual weather and recorded dates and levels which would have been a better indicator than historical averages which paint quite an optomistic picture.
Originally we were going to go to Almeria but we went down there for a 4 week holiday and got a really good feel for the area and realised just how hot and dry it was!
Well, Tarragona has experienced just as hot, dry weather for the last 4 years.
We rented for 8 months originally. 18 kms from the nearesr village, 25kms from a decent town. Off grid, solar power, no irrigation water or well. We had 2x 3000L water tanks to store rainwater. We were a family of 3. Interestingly they had an automatic washing machine plumbed in-high water use. Rainfall was insufficient to support us through the summer. there was a small, terraced veggie garden which the previous tenants had  lined with agri plastic. But the soil was very poor. Even after enriching, mulching and installing drip irrigation I couldn't get anything to grow productivly besides a bit of lettuce and chard. It grew, just nor very well and didnt produce fruit. It was about 1acre of terraced almonds and 4 acres of olives which you could see by the topography was planted on an underground watercourse. There was green vegetation directly above the retaining wall on the higher side and again below the lower retaining wall. Just a 2m square area but shows there was subterranian water. But the vegetation on the finca dried up totally during the summer. The soil had been intensively worked so was lifeless and did not hold moisture.
We spent 6 months looking for our own place- we were also on a very small budget- with a very stict criteria. We wanted 10 acres or more (for sheep & chickens) had to have water, not on a tar road, as remote as possible. Any building had to appear on the cadastral even if it was not liveable or zoned as agricultural. Building regs can be very strict in areas and we knew of a few illegal extensions and complete new builds(15 years old) that had knock down orders on them. You have to apply to paint your house in some villages.
We ended up on 2 acres, no water, on a tar road, 9km from the nearest town! But it was in budget and had a recorded agricultural building in the deeds.
We learned that you can live rurally with minimal traffic without sacrificing convenience. Renting a remote property on a dirt road without water highlighted the pitfalls of getting water onsite. When we needed water, we would tow a trailer to town and fill 600L from the town's public water point. It was a heavy going on the vehicle and trailer, the trailer needed new wheel bearings and the body once detached from the chassis and needed rewelding.

Living where we are now, we are on year round passable roads so fetching water isn't such an issue - we use a twin tub machine instead of fully automatic. We spent the first 2 years making it habitable, installed solar and running water in the 3rd year. We did all our own building, plumbing, wiring etc but we did use a solar instaler to fit the system from solar panel to mains distributer box. We have the same issues with growing stuff, even with heavy composting and mulching the soil is very deficient and plants struggle. I have lost over 20 trees  we had planted the first year and failed to create green cover between our olives-and not for lack of water. With heavy mulching and grey water usage we have developed small swales of growth but mainly using succulents and woody herbs. We have had nettle come up spontaneously which is great, but it is yet to survive a summer. I can't get anything edible to mature in the ground yet- except prickly pear. Terraces and swales are great as a concept, but the soil is so degraded and lacking in hummus that it doesn't hold water. In the first 2 years we rode trailer-load after trailer-load of stable muck and spread it 30 cm thick, drip irrigated, diverted runoff and swaled and experienced failure after failure. I've still got 10KG of green manure seed/legume mix in a bucket because I know it will fail if I plant in in the ground I have. We haven't given up, just reduced our expectations.
I have developed above ground wicking beds and reservoir pots instead which function better and I feel better about the water I use, which is much less anyway. I find this concentrates my efforts and I've had better success. The long term plan is to continue forming zai pits or mini swales and eventually  they will all link up into a green regenerated oasis. Looking back, I am so glad I don't have 10 acres to regenerate!
The olives bore fruit the first year but nothing since. We didn't expect any the 2nd year but with the drought last year the trees also held back. Farmers in the area are dubious about the harvest this year, even the irrigated ones. I think it's an interesting time in agricultural history with success stories in sub sahara, Jordan and Murcia but in all 3 cases I have noticed that there was heavy focus on increasing soil fertility through animal manures and carbon. The support and concerted effort of the community has also had a huge impact in Murcia. But the persistence of plowing as fire control in Tarragona is worrying.
As to leaving your property vacant for months, summer is the time when young plantings require the most care. Last summer the farmers ponds and reservoirs all dried up and the water table dropped so low they couldn't get any water out of their wells. Obviously if you are on a water scheme things are easier but there are still restrictions. As a side note, thefts are uncommon, there are a lot of semi vacant homes arounds us but I have heard of a few thefts of solar systems- in fact, our rented property had such a theft the year before we mover there. Just recently there have been postings on the local facebook groups about theft so it's worth bearing in mind.
My most important piece of advice to you is: try look at property in the late summer/autumn before the rains. Spring and Winter are glorious, vibrant and green. Summer paints a true picture of the conditions. If you can see how bad it gets, you can plan for it.
Overall, I had big expectations to change my 2 acres into an oasis like I have seen them do in Texas and Jordan but the reality is, it depends on what you have access to and water is a big factor. I am undefeated though and will continue to regenerate the land even if it is 1square meter at a time!

Welcome to a wonderful part of the world. We need every enthusiastic, committed folk ready to change their patch of heaven so that their neighbours will have visual proof of what can be done. There is a strong permaculture presence in Tarragona and our area even has a workday programme where people get together to help people to accomplish something in a day which would take a single person ages- like pruning a neglecleted orchard or rebuilding a terrace wall, planting trees etc. Some people can only supply labour, others bring their own tools too. It's generally a morning and you supply a cheap lunch- baked spuds or soup n bread so its a bit social as well. I've only managed to go to 2 but it's great to see and share other peoples ideas. It's a great area with an internatinal community. I am sure you will find a local Finish group and with luck, they will be permies too!

Hi Benjamin,
Thanks for your speedy reply. I work nights so my replies will always be 12 hours behind yours.
Thanks for the info on the bricks, I built a walker tiny stove inside my house using the fire bricks found locally but I had a lot of input from Matt Walker as to inside dimensions etc. I'm not good at figuring things out myself! I used clay slip for the core and a cob mortar using my clay soil, some sand and my dogs clipped hair for the outside clay bricks. And I also used an old, salvaged cast iron stove front as I couldn't imagine fabricating the firebox door and fireboard is very expensive here, well, more than I am willing to spend anyway. I did fabricate the oven door (just sheet metal) but haven't used the oven.  I was unable to insulate and seal it so had puffs of smoke seeping past the door seal. I ended up cobbing the edges shut to seal. If I get around to fixing the design, it will only be good as a slow cooker or smoker. I tested the temp and it wouldn't bake anything succesfully. I cook mostly on the stove top in winter and it has a built in water boiler I found 2nd hand. And it keeps our little casita lovely and warm. I am thinking of posting a build diary like yours but that's a lot of work- which is why I am so grateful for yours. I suppose I just don't feel confident enough to post it. If people start asking technical questions I'll be lost as I literaly just followed the plans!

My stove has been in use for one half and a full winter now and. Last winter it was only used from January to the end of February but this year we started using it in November. I removed the glass top in October and there wasn't too much soot in the innards. It will be interesting to see what it's like after a full winter. I have some creosote condensation streaks around the outer chimney but that may be due to damp wood I or issues with my secondary air intake.
I've bought a lot of rockety stuff from permies but the height of their oven was a bit high so I was pleased to see your modification and your measurements are metric so I don't have to convert! What's the height of the door of the oven when it's open? My mother is only 160cm tall and she's getting on so I dont want to risk her having an accident. Ideally I'd like my oven door to be about 120cm high when open. What was the height on your initial riser?
While I love my indoor Walker, I don't think it would reach the temps needed for breads even if I put the oven directly above the core exit. Mine doesn't burn too efficiently either - I think it might have something to do with the 2ndary air intake's size or position. I don't get flames shooting out the exit causing the stovetop to flicker- I think that looks cool- and it's not entirely smoke free. I need something that is very efficient and burns clear because if anyone sees a plume of smoke in my area, they will get the bombers out before my bread in even in the oven! I know that my fire is safe, but fire is fire here in the summer. I want to add a separate j tube with the double ring cast iron plate that came with the stove front for frying/boiling etc.I haven't worked out yet how to position the plate over the riser. I'm building an outdoor kitchen so it will have 1m walls with mesh to the roof and I'll put a spark arrestor over the vent. You vented your oven straight out the back, did you go up and add a chiney pipe or did you vent it facing down?
BTW, what is the insulation you used called in Spanish, how is it sold, by the roll or sheet? My spanish isn't great and trying to make myself understood is a trial for me and the other person.

You're right about the Iberian forum, it's very quiet. There are a lot of people using permaculture techniques in my area and there are local facebook sites but most are more about permaculture gardening, swales etc and not so much about building/heating. While I am a keen gardener with an interest in being self sufficient, there is more to living than gardening! I'd be really keen to swap ideas about linking household grey water to outside food producing areas, other than mulch pits, maybe incorporating aquaponics or at least some aqautic wildlife habitat, how to combat the mosquitos and midges, beat the heat in our summers and offgrid heat (other than butano on demand units) plumbed into the house. Share successes, experiences and especially our failures. Yeah, all things relevant to our corner of the world.

Benjamin Dinkel wrote:Hi fellow permies.

I decided to build a bread oven in an existing BBQ-site, using firebricks for the core and a salvaged electric oven as the oven part.

Here's a video of the first burn after dry stacking the J-Tube:

No smoke, I was quite content.
I then tried to make the whole setup a bit smaller and stacked it again, this time using the energy to cook some lentil soup.

I'll keep adding to this post as the construction continues.

Hola Benjamin, Greetings from Tarragona!
What a lovely build!
I want to build an outside rocket oven this year and I'm very interested in and thankful for your build journey. As firebrick sizes vary country to country, I was very excited to see you hail from Spain. Can you please tell me what the dimensions are? Did you get them from BigMat or Leroy Merlin or local hardware? Any onfo on the bricks you used would be appreciated. I am also so glad to see you using an old electric oven as I want to do the same - barrels are not easy to come by but old ovens are.
I shall be following your design plans carefully!
Buenos dias
Sarah

Alex Klohe wrote:We’ve been off grid since 2014, family of 4. Our best water heating has proven to be a 50 gallon electric hot water heater plumbed to our old kitchen queen cook stove heater coil, then a mixing valve, then to a propane fired on demand hot water heater.

In the deep winter the propane never kicked on because the incoming water was already hot. Shoulder seasons it would heat minimally until the summer when it did all the work.

We have since built a walker continental rocket stove and LOVE IT. The only setback is no water coil. Since we only run it a couple hours a day on average it doesn’t pay to put one in. OUR PROPANE USAGE IS CRAZY.

Next step is to hook up the panels we just got directly to the water heater coils in the tank (which have never been used) and crank up the temperature. Hopefully that will help with the propane usage.


Our two cents.

Mine too! Even without using a gas fired on demand water heater, boiling the kettle for dishes and showers is a lot in the summer and the shoulder periods. In the winter, the Walker is great. We use it maybe 6 hours aday in the winter but I have run the exhaust pipe above our bed so it heats the kitchen/dining area and our bedroom. As the stove backs onto our bedroom wall we also get lovely heat stored in the wall.  I have a reservoir next to the stove top which provides enough hot water in the morning to do dishes, etc. And we shower early evening to benefit from the masses of boiling water we generate at that time. Our water tank sits in the side chamber that moves the hot air from the plate to the oven before exiting the chimey. It's uncompressed -we lift the lid off the top and scoop water out. I wish I had a bigger receptical to hold more water as it's such a treat having access to instant hot water-instead of boiling the kettle! I will be experimenting with thermosyphoning by attaching copper pipes wrapped around the base of my exhaust pipe to an old electric water boiler, without an element, filled via cold water supply. To have water on tap in the winter would be absolute luxury.

I've used on-demand in gas and electrical form, as well as electric element/oil boiler storage tank systems on 2 continents and that Island in the North Sea. I cant weigh in on the heat pump option but my experience has shown me that it's a "horses for courses" scenario.
I grew up in South Africa (before solar) and everyone had "geysers"- a fibeglass-insulated double skinned steel tank tank with a heating element and a thermostat. Legionella was unheard of. Solely for hot water, no heating system. They worked on mains water in urban areas and were gravity fed from storage tanks filled from a borehole in rural settings. Later on, homesteads had a booster pump fitted to the water supply coming from the tank. No filters, very occasionally an element or thermostat would need replacing. Maybe they were more economical/durable because they were only for hot water?
Off grid, I used a gas on-demand gravity fed system: a 1000L tank 7meters above the ground with an outside mounted boiler. Serviceable, was plumbed in to the kitchen and bathroom so had the luxury of hot and cold water from taps! Could only use 1 hot water outlet at a time. Probably could have done with more pressure or a lower L/m boiler. Also, building a wind guard would have helped efficiency a lot - and prevented cold water down your back in the middle of a shower!

In the UK on mains water, in older houses I have only ever had oil fired "boilers" attached to an insulated storage tank in the loft/airing cupboard for hot water and radiators. Some had a back up electrical element in the tank to supply emergency hot water (but no heat) should the boiler break/need maintainence.  Newer or refurbished houses had electric/gas boilers with a storage tank, supplemented with an on-demand shower. Never any Legionella problems in single houses although there was a scare 10-15 years ago in a complex type living arrangement that shared the same heating system. I think the distance the water had to travel was an issue but don't quote me.
I've also used the really small 5-8Litre electric tank systems common in rural sheds and I find them very hungry and very inefficient. The amount of hot water you get is minimal because it's filling up as you use it -as all tank systems do- so the small amount of water in the tank cools really quickly. You may get a hand wash or half a basin of warm water. In winter, even with insulated pipes, the water is COLD so takes longer to reheat. Again, no filters that a householder had to maintain.

In Spain, because I am completely on solar with a small battery bank, high load appliances are out so that rules out both instant and storage electric systems. And no spacial heating but my Walker cookstove provides that in the winter, along with hot water. But in the summer a mass heater is out of the question! It's so hot I cook and heat water outdoors on a gas range. It's the most economical, if not particularly convenient, way for my situation in my climate. I only have cold water plumbed to my taps via a pump in a cisterna catching rainwater. This is fitted with a filter to remove debris, another to filter particles up to a certain- nano-whatever- range, and our drinking water is further filtered at the kitchen tap. Dish water is easy- boil a kettle, tip into the sink, not as fast as on demand or tank stored but reasonably timely. Hot showers is a bit more complex! Water is boiled, tipped into a 20L bucket, topped with cold water and I use an electical float controlled pump in the bucket to the shower head. I could have a gas boiler but as I can't vent it due to the house layout it would have to be outside. Here I am influenced by 3 major factors
1)wind- I've lived elsewhere in my region and had problems with flame blowout and low water temps as the flame is not constant. Even with the boiler indoors- the wind roars back through the vent and you get a cold blast in the shower. Coupled with
2)cold in winter, sub zero C temps chill the water so the max temp acheiveable is lower. My relatively small (6000L) storage tank is half above ground, directly in the prevailing wind. Also butane turns to sludge at a certain temp. You could use propane or build an insulated bax for your tank.
3) Perhaps my biggest bugbear- water and wasted energy. Unfortunately, due to the internal layout of my house, hot water would take a long route to get from the boiler to the taps which wastes energy -it cools as it travels. Also, for short usage- wash hands, rinse a glass etc. the tap is turned off before the hot water reaches it so water is heated for no reason. Water is wasted while waiting for the hot water to reach the tap. Now I would save the cold water in a bowl for rinsing when washing dishes and use the cold water to wash my hands/ rinse a cup, but unfortunately, the rest of the household hasn't worked that out yet! It used to put my teeth on edge to hear the boiler kick in, only to turn off 5 seconds later, and then again and again! I still havent found a solution for  using the cold water prior to showering.....So fot the sake of my sanity, in this situation, on demand gas is out.

I was looking at a hybrid solar/electric tank system referred to in an earlier post but in winter (when I use the most hot water) I have the least sun for DC supply and lower AC power storage potential. I am trying to find out if I can attach  double the amount of panels to make up for the reduced solar imput in the winter, but I'm concerened about overload in the summer-I don't understand enough about where DC current goes when it's input exceeds load. It's a completely separate system and not connected to my inverter at all. The electric element is wired to the CB.

Ideally I would a storage tank directly above my kitchen which stores heated, thermosyphoned water from my Walker Stove in winter and the DC system/AC system or, even better, a solar thermosyphon in the summer for year round, efficient access to hot water.

Each of these situations is unique to the environment, usage, financial constraints, building codes any many other factors so I don't think there is a one-size-fits -all scenario. But I would definitely think outside the box and not conform to social "norms" in any situation.

Ed Lewis wrote:Has anyone heard of or played with an electric tank with two elements, one is to AC element (grid or otherwise) and the other is to a DC element ( https://windandsolar.com/search/?q=water%20heater%20element )  you can connect direct to solar panels? I have an old existing electric water tank in my barn that I would love to let the solar do most of the heating to save money. I bought one with the built in thermostat but have not yet set it up.  I like the idea of direct DC as it cuts the batteries which I don't have. I've been wanting to do this for years but have never pulled the trigger.

I'm in Europe and have found a consumer ready setup like you describe - unfortunately it wouldn't work for me in winter as my electric supply is totally solar and my battery bank wouldn't cope with the load.
Maybe youcan source it from your end?
https://termoselectricos.es/producto/aparici-100-litros-sol-hybrid-conectado-paneles-y-230vac/?utm_source=Google%20Shopping&utm_campaign=TermosShopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=2404

You asked about any suggestions for the future. There was talk of expanding the project after a few years to include drier climates. With this in mind, I have to start planning now if I wish to participate.                                                                                                                                                                                      
I live in arid northern Spain on a small olive plantation on top of a hill. The soil has been ploughed continuously for over 30 years to discourage plant growth as a fire prevention method. So it's devoid of life, has a hard pan just below plough level and does not hold water. My goal is to get to a point where I am growing 60% of everything that I consume without external inputs.
Soil regeneration is hard where I live. Gardening is a struggle. Nothing is simple.  Almost every resource is offsite-including water. This poses 2 challenges:
1)Water. I refer you to your statement about the importance of unlimited irrigation in soil creation. I have no continuous supply of water on site. While I have water storage facilities to catch every drop of rain, they are plastic and insufficient to water a 200ft plot during the blisteringly hot,dry summer so I would be continually fetching water from the nearby town in an IBC. While my long term goal is to create soil in which to grow my food, my immediate goal is to eat. I cannot in good conscience empty thousands of litres of water into the dirt I currently have. It's labour intensive and expensive to get on site - 2 of the GAMCOD criteria to keep low . So I have started container garden using half IBCs with a water reservoir underneath and drip fed, above ground polythylene pools. This reduces my water usage by at least 80%. If I drip feed plants growing in the dirt here, I use 1000lt water every 2 days-even mulched using cardboard (a no no) and bark chip (a no no). The same amount of space in my containers use 1000lt water every 3 weeks or so.

2)How to get enough fertility onto my plot. It is definitely dirt with no soil life, not even grass grows successfully here. Currently I make my own compost using stable muck from a nearby stable which use wood shavings as bedding, household scraps, olive branch chips, urine and water. As mentioned, I live on an olive plantation. These trees need pruning at least every 2 years on rotation. Burning is prohibited in my area so my only option is to chip. If woodchips from my site were allowed I could use them to make compost without the stable manure. I have no other raw materials available onsite and you cant make something from nothing.


I understand GAMCOD has a very rigid set of criteria for a very specific reason-to encourage newbies to start soil regeneration and growing food by demonstating how simple it is. But with my conditions, I have been discouraged time and time again in my attempts to create soil or garden for food even though I am fully invested in regenerating my landscape. So while I am busy on numerous projects involving soil regeneration, food production is a separate but very important activity. If I was a complete newbie, I would quit before I started with the strict restrictions placed on what I could  use. Being a dedicated amateur gives me just enough enthusiasm to try as many different approaches as possible and I look forward to gaining some valuable insights and fresh ideas from more experienced growies facing similar challenges. Again, I understand the need for a strict control group for the parameters of the existing project. But as a lot of us live outside of the temperate zone and have limited access to water, the current project has little value or relevence.

You are looking at low cost, low effort, no outside imput ways to turn dirt into soil and grow calories in a defined space. Plastic is frowned upon (I hate the stuff myself, avoid single use plastics and try to repurpose and avoid landfill) but I would have about 200sqf in total and it would be in 1 block. Beyond setting up the system, my input would be minimal as I plan to use a close planting, continuous plant cover system. Cost is low too as damaged pools and IBCs are free. Although not in the ground, I would still be turning my dirt into soil and could provide the proof thereof. And it would be using solely on site ammendments. Once I have built enough soil in my containers, I plan to return it to the holes I have dug the dirt out of so that the dirt surrounding these pits can be slowly regenerated too while still providing more than 60% of what we consume.

The alternative would be to dig out the pits, line them with pond liner and refil with dirt and compost etc. But I would still need a barrier to prevent moisture loss-at least for 2-3 years anyway.
This is long winded and probably premature-being only at the end of year1 of the original project.  Your project just dovetailed with my intentions and goals regarding food production at little/no cost and minimal effort. I have started on a smaller scale already and the results are encouraging. It would have been nice to be part of a larger, documented trial. I followed the thought process and implementation with great interest.

I know this is rather outdated but I stumbled across this while looking for something else. I have a pvc pool that my exhuberant daughter split all down the one side. I also have dirt that is the texture of cement-even the few weeds that struggle to come upin the spring have a very short life, they're dead by summer. And I hate throwing stuff away. Having enthusiastically tried various methods to ammend my soil, keep plants hydrated and the bugs off long enough to get any sort of harvest I was prepared to put in a bit more hard work.
I roughly patched the 2m tear, put in a 15cm layer of broken clay bricks, topped it with a holey tarp. I then proceeded to fill it with composted bark chip, composted horse manure and a bit of my dirt. I laid drip irrigation pipes and draped a net over. It took me 2 days but I think it was worth it.

I planted swiss chard, collards, brocolli, cauliflower and onions late last summer. It did really well! No losses due to pests, I hardly watered once the seedlings were established.
I have just planted out squash seedlings, same thing, beyond drip irrigating for an hour every 2nd /3rd day for 2 weeks post planting, I haven't had to water and the soil-yes SOIL- is moist and friable. Plants look healthy and I have upgraded my netting so I don't have to pull the whole thing off when I want to harvest a few items.
I can reach the middle from each long side and the tall sides act as a wind break for the seedlings against our persistant, desicating winds.

It's not everyones cup of tea but to respond to the "why", After 3 years of trying and failing, what an achievement to grow some of my own food! Yes, there's plastic involved but most of the food available to me has been fed by plastic drip irrigation anyway and is wrapped in plastic for how long before I get it? I have no water on site, every drop either has to be fetched from town (in a plastic IBC) or harvested (when rain does fall)from our roofs and is recycled before draining away through our lovely clay dirt. Any ammendments (poop, barkchip) have to be brought on site anyway so I may as well empty them into a pool rather than onto the ground where they will go  into stasis - unless I water and turn every few days.

It's not ideal, but it gives me hope that I can grow food while I work on the bigger picture of regenerating the landscape. My next project is IBC wicking beds- which is what I was searching for when I came across this thread.

Thanks Cade for such an indepth insight into pressure and why it's important to plan from the start! I think I ended up going with 16mm pipes so hopefully have partailly addressed the pressure issue.