• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
  • Mike Jay
  • Anne Miller
  • Jocelyn Campbell
stewards:
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • Burra Maluca
garden masters:
  • Dave Burton
  • Pearl Sutton
gardeners:
  • James Freyr
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Daron Williams

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bitcoinHEX  RSS feed

 
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


This guy, Richard Heart of *Australia, is building an interest feature into his 'bitcoin fork'. I believe this is new and different than other crypto-currencies. I believe that if people are looking for a "currency" when they look to crypto, this bitcoin fork will get straight to work.

Because it's a fork, bitcoin holders may claim their coins.

Check it out, and please use this referral link to claim your coins: bitcoinHEX.

*not; apparently I was wrong
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In case you are new to bitcoin, I will attempt to explain:

Bitcoin is a ledger that can be used as a currency.
This project, bitcoinHEX, is being developed TO BE A CURRENCY.
 
pollinator
Posts: 2400
Location: Toronto, Ontario
214
bee forest garden fungi hugelkultur cooking rabbit trees urban wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Davin.

I admit, even reading through the link, I am less than enlightened on the subject.

Could you perhaps tell us a bit more in layman's terms? We didn't all start on Coderanch.

-CK
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Chris Kott wrote:Could you perhaps tell us a bit more in layman's terms?

I feel like you are joking. But thanks for the challenge... from what I am witnessing, people are confused about the value associated with communal digital ledgers. Since bitcoin's creation, other coins have been created. Good projects are attempting to be unique, but many are falling short of that, and are looking like frauds instead. When making a coin, the coin needs a base system to run on. For bitcoinHEX, that base is Ethereum. BitcoinHEX will fork (split) from the bitcoin ledger (tables/wallets), which means it will divide it's ledger (tables/wallets) the same, to start, which makes full adoption more appropriate to current bitcoin holders. BitcoinHEX will wrap up the current concerns about bitcoin being a currency, and run on the Ethereum platform.
 
master steward
Posts: 3399
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
743
books food preservation hunting solar trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hmm, could you dumb it down a bit further?  Maybe to the 4th grade level?  

All I know about them is that they consume a tremendous amount of electricity to maintain, they are not physical pieces of money and that hackers like to use them for payment.
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mike Jay wrote:could you dumb it down a bit further?



There are a lot of computers.
There is a fixed amount of digital coin.
We trade those coins for whatever purpose.
The computers make that transaction a 'consensus'.
The computers take a small fee for their work.

Equivalent: If I gave a cashier a dollar bill, the computers would show that dollar's code number go from me, to the store.

As of now, bitcoin's digital coin could be used for anything.
The digital coin is digital space on the bitcoin system.

Equivalent: Digital real estate like website domain names.

Some people say bitcoin is a first-generation experiment.
What governs bitcoins, or how a bitcoin works, could be more adapted to being a currency specifically.
Richard Heart is trying to make a currency in bitcoinHEX.

 
Mike Jay
master steward
Posts: 3399
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
743
books food preservation hunting solar trees woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ok, I get the "money" moving from person to person part.  What I don't get is that you can just make it up (create it) and then it's a currency and people start trading it.  It seems akin to if I went out there and created a company called General Ford Motors Company.  Then people just decide it's a good thing and buy stock and trade it back and forth.  The main difference is with stocks, there's the value of a company behind it.  What's the value/backing behind a cryptocurrency?
 
steward
Posts: 4512
Location: Zones 2-4 Wyoming and 4-5 Colorado
394
bee books forest garden fungi greening the desert hugelkultur
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Same thing as federal reserve notes, in my mind, only backed by "full faith etc".
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mike Jay wrote:What's the value/backing behind a cryptocurrency?



Decentralized consensus.

To me, the most eye-opening statement would be: "Digital real estate." For example: Paul rents "permies.com" and "richsoil.com" from a world-wide consensus. I do the same for my website domain. There are a finite amount of domain names that are appropriate to consumers as we progress. Some name like "smoke.com" has become worth millions of USD.
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Miles Flansburg wrote:Same thing as federal reserve notes, in my mind...



Notes do not have a fixed supply (at the moment).

Furthermore, if I wanted to send crypto to Paul, I could do that in minutes - digital wallet to digital wallet.
But if I wanted to send USD to Paul, it may take days - bank to bank.
 
Mike Jay
master steward
Posts: 3399
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
743
books food preservation hunting solar trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Ok, so US dollars are backed by the "full faith" of the US government.  Which consists of billions or trillions of dollars worth of assets and a strong incentive to keep the economy and financial systems running.

It sounds like bitcoin is backed by the "decentralized consensus" of the world via their commitment to a virtual currency.  I guess I'm not seeing how there's any actual value to support it.  Other than the value people believe it holds on a given day.  If enough people think it has value, then they trade it and are happy.  But if people suddenly lose faith in it, doesn't the value drops dramatically overnight?

Or is it that in order to acquire one bitcoin, you pay XXX actual dollars into a kettle.  Then you have a bitcoin that you can trade.  The dollars that someone is keeping in the kettle are the support for the system.  So as long as you trust them, it's all good?  
 
Posts: 40
Location: Vermont, USA
3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Davin Hoyt wrote:

Mike Jay wrote:What's the value/backing behind a cryptocurrency?



Decentralized consensus.



Perhaps relevant to the fact that we're on Permies, an answer other than "Decentralized consensus" to Mike's question might be "around 3GW of computing" (no one really knows and it changes over time but this is probably an alright estimate).  Or, since the Bitcoin network can process about 10 transactions per second, we could say "83kWh per transaction" (also the network is "always on" so the energy cost is paid whether anyone is transacting or not).

So, specifically, it's worth considering whether the benefits of Bitcoin outweigh the internalized and externalized costs of maintaining it.

Davin Hoyt wrote:
To me, the most eye-opening statement would be: "Digital real estate." For example: Paul rents "permies.com" and "richsoil.com" from a world-wide consensus. I do the same for my website domain. There are a finite amount of domain names that are appropriate to consumers as we progress. Some name like "smoke.com" has become worth millions of USD.



Hm.  I don't think this comparison is quite right.  Those domain names are rented from centralized authorities (the "registries").  If those centralized authorities decide to take the domain names away, they can.  Bitcoin, on the other hand, allows anyone in the world to participate (as long as they have the computing resources and corresponding power) and requires that 50%+1 of computing power (or ~33% if folks are really clever) agree to any particular transaction.

Also, it's not clear to me how "digital real estate" relates since one bitcoin is one bitcoin and will not practically appreciate (or depreciate) compared to another bitcoin.  Technically, bitcoin *aren't* fungible but this technicality doesn't seem like it would allow the kind of valuation growth you see in popular domain names.

Other problems to watch out for with any "altcoins" (there's another less polite term for them, too) is that since there is so much computing hardware available to run the Bitcoin network and the altcoin networks are so much smaller, it is very easy for an agent to move some hardware from Bitcoin to an altcoin and become 50%+1 all by themselves.  This allows them to do all kinds of nasty things that break the very premise of the coin.
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mike Jay wrote:Ok, so US dollars are backed by the "full faith" of the US government.  Which consists of billions or trillions of dollars worth of assets and a strong incentive to keep the economy and financial systems running.


Trust is needed.

Mike Jay wrote:It sounds like bitcoin is backed by the "decentralized consensus" of the world via their commitment to a virtual currency.  I guess I'm not seeing how there's any actual value to support it.  Other than the value people believe it holds on a given day.  If enough people think it has value, then they trade it and are happy.  But if people suddenly lose faith in it, doesn't the value drops dramatically overnight?



Yes. But the same goes for countrys’ monetary systems. Bitcoin’s USD value is up 1000% since summer of 2017.

Mike Jay wrote:Or is it that in order to acquire one bitcoin, you pay XXX actual dollars into a kettle.  Then you have a bitcoin that you can trade.  The dollars that someone is keeping in the kettle are the support for the system.  So as long as you trust them, it's all good?  



No. There are crypto currencies that are a one to one with USD, but bitcoin is not.
 
Jean-Paul Calderone
Posts: 40
Location: Vermont, USA
3
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Davin Hoyt wrote:

Mike Jay wrote:Ok, so US dollars are backed by the "full faith" of the US government.  Which consists of billions or trillions of dollars worth of assets and a strong incentive to keep the economy and financial systems running.


Trust is needed.

Mike Jay wrote:It sounds like bitcoin is backed by the "decentralized consensus" of the world via their commitment to a virtual currency.  I guess I'm not seeing how there's any actual value to support it.  Other than the value people believe it holds on a given day.  If enough people think it has value, then they trade it and are happy.  But if people suddenly lose faith in it, doesn't the value drops dramatically overnight?



Yes. But the same goes for countrys’ monetary systems. Bitcoin’s USD value is up 1000% since summer of 2017.



And down 83% since 12 months ago.
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:
And down 83% since 12 months ago.



And the roots?

In 2012 I said to myself, “only when other people do it too.”
 
Mike Jay
master steward
Posts: 3399
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
743
books food preservation hunting solar trees woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So if the value can change so dramatically, it seems like a combination of a risky investment and a currency system.  I know national currencies fluctuate relative to one another but that's based on GDP and other normal-ish economic indicators.  If the money in my pocket went up and down by 100's of percentages over the course of a year, I'd consider it more of a risky investment than I would a means of currency.

If someone wants to give me some, I won't turn them down.  If I could buy bitcoin for $1 per coin, I'd buy them.  But I'm not about to convert $10,000 USD into bitcoin to start using them as money.
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Mike Jay wrote:So if the value can change so dramatically, it seems like a combination of a risky investment and a currency system.  I know national currencies fluctuate relative to one another but that's based on GDP and other normal-ish economic indicators.  If the money in my pocket went up and down by 100's of percentages over the course of a year, I'd consider it more of a risky investment than I would a means of currency.



The value is decided “by the market”, and this system is new and improving.

If I may return to the digital real estate analogy:  the online bubble popped and returned strong. People started focused tech careers there.

Where we are now: You can have a wallet in your internet browser and/or cell phone. Bitcoin and most other coins just had a bubble. People are starting careers.

 
Posts: 362
Location: Rural Unincorporated Los Angeles County Zone 10b
33
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jean-Paul Calderone wrote:And down 83% since 12 months ago.



This is how Ponzi scams behave.

 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've already crossed the line into finance talk, so....
if this is the dawn of a new currency,
the residual income could make your participation 1K to 1M per hour.
That's the hindsight 20/20 blogger talk Paul uses.
 
Davin Hoyt
pollinator
Posts: 244
Location: Central Texas (Georgetown)
138
tiny house wofati
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Trying to get the word out more with this video bomb.

 
Greg Mamishian
Posts: 362
Location: Rural Unincorporated Los Angeles County Zone 10b
33
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
As I see them, cryptocurrencies only offer the illusion of getting something for nothing.
 
PI day is 3.14 (march 14th) and is also einstein's birthday. And this is merely a tiny ad:
Rocket Oven plan download
https://permies.com/t/rocket-oven-plans
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!