• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Nicole Alderman
stewards:
  • Mike Haasl
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
master gardeners:
  • jordan barton
  • John F Dean
  • Rob Lineberger
  • Carla Burke
  • Jay Angler
gardeners:
  • Greg Martin
  • Ash Jackson
  • Jordan Holland

Lasagne Anyone ?

 
pioneer & author
Posts: 145
Location: Hessle, North Yorkshire, England, Uk
28
goat monies forest garden fungi trees books cooking writing
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The notion of Lasagne from the well-known Italian pasta dish is to build a mulch with a variety of layers.   I did this on a raised bed the year before I intended to plant and I think it worked very well. It actually heated up after a few weeks and broke down quicker than I expected; the worms loved it. With hindsight I would not have used normal newspaper because of the processes related to white paper. Instead I would have used brown cardboard drenched in urine, I'm reluctant to go into too many details regarding this but in the spirit of harnessing local resources if there was a bonfire nearby it would be a rather simple matter to arrange.

First-Layer_Manure.jpg
[Thumbnail for First-Layer_Manure.jpg]
Second-Layer_Newspaper.jpg
[Thumbnail for Second-Layer_Newspaper.jpg]
Third-Layer_Comfrey.jpg
[Thumbnail for Third-Layer_Comfrey.jpg]
Fourth-Layer_Horseradish-Leaves.jpg
[Thumbnail for Fourth-Layer_Horseradish-Leaves.jpg]
Fifth-Layer_Bramble-with-Hazel.jpg
[Thumbnail for Fifth-Layer_Bramble-with-Hazel.jpg]
I got a lot of flack from the old timers with this last layer.
Sweetcorn-with-deep-mulch.jpg
[Thumbnail for Sweetcorn-with-deep-mulch.jpg]
Planted the year after.
 
pollinator
Posts: 463
Location: Utah
127
cat forest garden fungi foraging food preservation bee medical herbs writing greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mine is not precisely a lasagna bed, but I suppose it could pass in a pinch. I had a bunch of leftover sod from the parkstrip conversion. I picked two areas. I layered the first with sticks and yard debris, then sod over the top (upside down), then leaves, then wood chips, then dirt. On the 2nd the sod went on top, which was a mistake in hindsight because I'm still chasing the grass.
 
eric fisher
pioneer & author
Posts: 145
Location: Hessle, North Yorkshire, England, Uk
28
goat monies forest garden fungi trees books cooking writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dear Lauren,
I am already getting hungry thinking about this. It never occurred to me that there was a precise definition of a lasagne bed. You have six layers I think that qualifies !
 
Lauren Ritz
pollinator
Posts: 463
Location: Utah
127
cat forest garden fungi foraging food preservation bee medical herbs writing greening the desert
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I get used to people being purists, and arguing that something isn't "really" what it claims to be because of some quibble or other. Meh.

Lasagna is layers of cheese and noodles and sauce. And it's baked. So... "But that's not lasagna because it doesn't use lasagna noodles!" Tell that to my Italian grandpa. :)

My garden bakes in the sun, and it's layered, right? :) I didn't really plant anything in it after I took out the carrots and lettuce this spring.
 
eric fisher
pioneer & author
Posts: 145
Location: Hessle, North Yorkshire, England, Uk
28
goat monies forest garden fungi trees books cooking writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi,

I can see the debate over what is or isn't the correct layers and components of lasagne could carry on forever and eventually end up in the 'Cider Press' where much cider will be made.  I think there is sometimes a danger in certain procedures with people wanting to be ultraprecise over things that are inherently imprecise. I guess there are advantages to this, in some areas but in other areas it can be rather unnecessary.
 
Lauren Ritz
pollinator
Posts: 463
Location: Utah
127
cat forest garden fungi foraging food preservation bee medical herbs writing greening the desert
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well this lasagna has STUFF in it! So there.
 
eric fisher
pioneer & author
Posts: 145
Location: Hessle, North Yorkshire, England, Uk
28
goat monies forest garden fungi trees books cooking writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Well I hope you find the lasagne that's right  for you Lauren, for myself I confess I like using mincemeat but I did one with quorn last time (below) and it went well. I had plenty of fresh herbs in my kitchen and I think that saved it.
Lasagne.jpg
[Thumbnail for Lasagne.jpg]
 
gardener
Posts: 3215
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
366
forest garden trees urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I was shocked about the bramble layer,  but only because it was so high up, instead of being a base layer.
 
eric fisher
pioneer & author
Posts: 145
Location: Hessle, North Yorkshire, England, Uk
28
goat monies forest garden fungi trees books cooking writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Mr Bronson,

I didn't want it to rob nitrogen from the soil, also I think there would have probably been more chance of it rooting then, which I wanted to avoid in this instance. The intention was to dry it out because I wanted to plant sweetcorn with a no-dig thing the year after. I got a lot of flack from old timers for that because they thought the area would become one of the thorn gardens you hear about in myths, they've got vivid imaginations. Just for the sake of curiosity why would you have it as the base layer ?
 
pollinator
Posts: 255
Location: Basque Country, Spain-43N lat-Köppen Cfb-Zone8b-1035mm/41" rain: 118mm/5" Dec., 48mm/2" July
82
purity personal care books cooking food preservation writing
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

eric fisher wrote:Hi Mr Bronson,

I didn't want it to rob nitrogen from the soil, also I think there would have probably been more chance of it rooting then, which I wanted to avoid in this instance. The intention was to dry it out because I wanted to plant sweetcorn with a no-dig thing the year after. I got a lot of flack from old timers for that because they thought the area would become one of the thorn gardens you hear about in myths, they've got vivid imaginations. Just for the sake of curiosity why would you have it as the base layer ?



Hmmm, I'm going to turn that last question back around to you Eric. Why did you put brambles on there at all? I might have been muttering over in the corner with the old timers myself! You say to dry them out... Couldn't you dry them somewhere else? Like on a local patch or concrete or tarmac? Then they'd be reasonably sure not to take root! If for nutrients could they not be better supplied by one of your lovely compost teas, without tempting fate in so daring a fashion?
 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 3215
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
366
forest garden trees urban
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I put wood in my base layers in the hopes that it will provide aeration early on and a carbon heavy sponge for water later on.
It always provides bulk,  which is good.
I like tall beds, for my backs sake,  so bulk is helpful.
I never much worry about big chunks robbing nitrogen.
Branches, chips and leaves I do avoid mixing into the soil for fear of tying up nitrogen.

Never had to deal with brambles, but if they are as fearsome as advertised,  I think I would char them befit I buried them.
 
eric fisher
pioneer & author
Posts: 145
Location: Hessle, North Yorkshire, England, Uk
28
goat monies forest garden fungi trees books cooking writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Hmmm, I'm going to turn that last question back around to you Eric. Why did you put brambles on there at all? I might have been muttering over in the corner with the old timers myself! You say to dry them out... Couldn't you dry them somewhere else? Like on a local patch or concrete or tarmac? Then they'd be reasonably sure not to take root! If for nutrients could they not be better supplied by one of your lovely compost teas, without tempting fate in so daring a fashion?




Good morning Mr de Basque, what time of day is it where you are ?

Re the quote above:  Because the bramble stalks were fine where I put them, in the context of what I was doing. The year after they had dried out and formed a decent moisture protecting mulch with the hay shown in my photo.

Thanks for your kind words regarding my teas.  No offense is intended, but I am thinking that the vigour of the bramble is rather exaggerated in people minds, hence my references to mythical thorn gardens that grow magically overnight.  I have much experience regarding the vigour of brambles and I know their potential and their limitations. If one had rooted, well so what, I’d been going there every week and it would have been the work of 10 secs to pull it. As it played out the bramble sticks behaved as I imagined they would.  I intentionally maintain a few patches of bramble on my land for the wildlife value, windshield value, food value and other less tangible reasons. The bramble berry is my guilty pleasure that I enjoy over the late summer and autumn here and sample in rather indulgent wines.

Best Regards
World-Distribution-map-of-Rubus-fructicosus.png
[Thumbnail for World-Distribution-map-of-Rubus-fructicosus.png]
 
eric fisher
pioneer & author
Posts: 145
Location: Hessle, North Yorkshire, England, Uk
28
goat monies forest garden fungi trees books cooking writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

I put wood in my base layers in the hopes that it will provide aeration early on and a carbon heavy sponge for water later on.
It always provides bulk,  which is good.
I like tall beds, for my backs sake,  so bulk is helpful.
I never much worry about big chunks robbing nitrogen.
Branches, chips and leaves I do avoid mixing into the soil for fear of tying up nitrogen.

Never had to deal with brambles, but if they are as fearsome as advertised,  I think I would char them befit I buried them.



Hi,

I think what you are alluding to is Hugelkultur, I have nothing against it, it is an interesting technique, amongst others, just it wasn't what I was wanting to do here.

I was shocked at something you mentioned regarding not having experienced brambles and did learn something new today. I had always presumed that the bramble I was referring to -  Rubus fruticosus was cosmopolitan. Turns out nothing could be further from the truth as you can observe on the distribution map.  Regarding this bramble being fearsome, I suppose it can be formidable, but not in the circumstances  I was applying  it. I always like to maintain a few wild patches of bramble. As mentioned in the post above  to Dave de Basque, it bestows certain benefits to some people and the wildlife likes it.

Best Regards


distribution_map.png
[Thumbnail for distribution_map.png]
 
Dave de Basque
pollinator
Posts: 255
Location: Basque Country, Spain-43N lat-Köppen Cfb-Zone8b-1035mm/41" rain: 118mm/5" Dec., 48mm/2" July
82
purity personal care books cooking food preservation writing
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

eric fisher wrote:

Hmmm, I'm going to turn that last question back around to you Eric. Why did you put brambles on there at all? I might have been muttering over in the corner with the old timers myself! You say to dry them out... Couldn't you dry them somewhere else? Like on a local patch or concrete or tarmac? Then they'd be reasonably sure not to take root! If for nutrients could they not be better supplied by one of your lovely compost teas, without tempting fate in so daring a fashion?




Good morning Mr de Basque, what time of day is it where you are ?

Re the quote above:  Because the bramble stalks were fine where I put them, in the context of what I was doing. The year after they had dried out and formed a decent moisture protecting mulch with the hay shown in my photo.

Thanks for your kind words regarding my teas.  No offense is intended, but I am thinking that the vigour of the bramble is rather exaggerated in people minds, hence my references to mythical thorn gardens that grow magically overnight.  I have much experience regarding the vigour of brambles and I know their potential and their limitations. If one had rooted, well so what, I’d been going there every week and it would have been the work of 10 secs to pull it. As it played out the bramble sticks behaved as I imagined they would.  I intentionally maintain a few patches of bramble on my land for the wildlife value, windshield value, food value and other less tangible reasons. The bramble berry is my guilty pleasure that I enjoy over the late summer and autumn here and sample in rather indulgent wines.

Best Regards



Hello once again dear Mr. Fisher. I believe I am beginning to see to the bottom of your curious plans. Or rather to the top. So, hypothetically speaking, if one were to cut some bramble canes, one would be in the position of possessing said canes, and faced with having to put them somewhere. There being precious few places where a stray bramble cane would not be tempted, in the dark of night, to put down roots and establish a new bramble patch to supply man and beast with further thorns and berries, one might, if one were very, very clever and had read this thread, place said bramble canes atop one's lasagna bed, where all responsible passersby could keep a watchful eye on their activities, and where they might be rendered harmless by a year's worth of direct solar radiation. Not only harmless, but gloriously rich in nutrients and general mulchability. Perfectly extraordinary. With the extra piquancy offered by the brazen placement of the much-feared canes, inviting endless hand-wringing, muttering and the occasional cat-call from the peanut gallery. This is pure genius. It is a satisfaction that I must one day permit myself. I wish to thank you in advance for the satisfaction to be derived from this project that I have not yet commenced. If I have anything to say about it, there will be an OBE coming your way any day now.

Btw, Basque time is +1h with respect to British time.
 
William Bronson
gardener
Posts: 3215
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio,Price Hill 45205
366
forest garden trees urban
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Aha, we call them blackberries here!
I have a domestic variety in my back yard.

They are vigorous, yet my own plants have failed to compete with the grape vine.
They do readily root when fresh, a fact I take advantage of via tip layering.
It's pretty easy to tell if they are dead, in my experience, and I don't worry about them sprouting at that point.
The branches wild brambles could be pretty ferocious mulch.
gift
 
Clean With Cleaners You Can Eat by Raven Ranson
will be released to subscribers in: soon!
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic