Is anyone really doing permaculture?

I was on skype with Geoff and asked if he could chime in to this thread. So, yes, that is the real Geoff Lawton.

paul wheaton wrote:I was on skype with Geoff and asked if he could chime in to this thread. So, yes, that is the real Geoff Lawton.

Thanks Paul!. I think Geoff would be an ideal person to give the detailed description of how it's done and what the priorities should be. Perhaps he would be qualified as much or more than anyone that's entered this thread to answer the original challenge Collin set forth for a pioneer to come out and say this is how I did it, this is what I should have done, this is how you can have success etc..

(will be following this thread closely to see if Geoff is willing to do something like that)

Geoff has already provided so much detailed information with the DVD series, website, global network, etc I'm not sure it is appropriate to ask for more from him.

Tyler Ludens wrote:Geoff has already provided so much detailed information with the DVD series, website, global network, etc I'm not sure it is appropriate to ask for more from him.

While I'm half inclined to this kind of deference... frankly... I can use all the guidance I can get. And that man, of all men, knows his own limits.

Tyler Ludens wrote:Geoff has already provided so much detailed information with the DVD series, website, global network, etc I'm not sure it is appropriate to ask for more from him.

No disrespect meant. I am sure he is busy and has laid it all out in a variety of places. I guess maybe we newbies just want a bit of a handout before taking the leap.

Michael James wrote:
No disrespect meant. I am sure he is busy and has laid it all out in a variety of places. I guess maybe we newbies just want a bit of a handout before taking the leap.

It doesn't have to be a leap. Start where you are right now. You have all of these forums, all of youtube, all the books written. Have some faith in yourself!

Isaac Hill wrote:

Michael James wrote:
No disrespect meant. I am sure he is busy and has laid it all out in a variety of places. I guess maybe we newbies just want a bit of a handout before taking the leap.

It doesn't have to be a leap. Start where you are right now. You have all of these forums, all of youtube, all the books written. Have some faith in yourself!

Thanks for the encouragement. I haven't had much success with my ideas so far, and I don't have any support for trying to do this so it helps to hear it.

Not sure if anybody mentioned the Dervaes' from Pasadena, CA. Not everybody is a fan since they copyrighted the phrase Urban Homestead, but I think they may qualify for what you are asking about: I'm not sure if their crops are perennials or just annuals, but their results are impressive regardless: Path to Freedom

Many, many people are doing about what I've been doing. There also intentional communities I know of as well. I don't know if you consider this really doing this, but I do.

I have been seriously gardening for about 15 years. I have many trees that are fruiting for me from which I eat every month of the year: Apples, cherries, pears, persimmons, paw paws, pineapple guava, medlar, dogwoods, hawthorn, shipova, quince, peaches, figs, orange and lemon, goumi, autumn olive. Most of my fruits and vegetables come from my yard. I have 15 or so varieties of self-seeding or perennial vegetables interspersed. We grow many (20?) kinds of flowers for pollination, overall nature/health, and beauty. We also have several herbs. This is my second permaculture house. I garden organically and I mulch and spray compost tea. We have many little birds and animals that come to our oasis. We add almost no inputs other than wood chips. I am going to half-time work next year. As the trees mature, I graft different varieties so I can store some, freeze some, can some, dry some. I teach grafting classes and we have a neighborhood swap group for produce and food. I think I am really doing this. What do you think?
John S
PDX OR

hey Collin,
God bless all of those that have spent time to throw out info whether or not they own an inch of land because their ideas have given me a vast world of options and knowledge. I'm here and succeeding although it's taken almost 15 years of labor and do-overs. Almost 20 years go I began searching for forest land with a short list of size, springs, creek and a variety of trees. 5 years of seaching and I was lucky enough to find some land in southern VA with only a rough plowed path through the woods, to a small round clearing on a small forest river. We spent almost a year of week-ends hand clearing the scrubby understory junk within about 2 acres of our build site. We then found 2 old log cabins built in the mid 1800s in WV, taken down and moved for building material. 2 years worth of week-ends and vacations we constructed our home. A nice grove of wild pawpaws lined the river, loads of wild blackberries, mushrooms and persimmons were in the forest. 2 more years and we added a passive solar addition so we would have plenty of space to be here full time and room for kids & friends to visit. 4 years ago we took a deep breath said good bye to droves of traffic, people and noise & moved here full time. We put in a small (1/2) acre fenced kitchen garden with fruit trees, berries, herb beds, asparagus, rubarb and seasonal veggie beds. Although Paul hates water barrles, we have them, but it's an open system that has a direct feed to saturate the valleys in our garden beds. We then began potting up berry bushes from cuttings. The next year we cleared 3 acres and installed an orchard, which is now organic cert., with 120 fruit trees, 100 blueberries, 60 blackberries, 45 red, black & yellow rasp. and we make a decent living selling directly to large businesses. We live in very rural USA, this is agriculture central with generations of knowledge about being self sufficient. I know dozens of people that describe themselves as being raised dirt poor, but were truly uneffected by the depressions (not this one, the other one) as they had animals for meat, plenty of veggies and literally went to town 4 times a year. Our basement has a wall of shelves filled with goods I canned from our garden and goods gifted & traded for. We now have a store in town (population is less than 5,000) where we sell local produce, plants, incredible soaps made from our neighbor that raises sheep, brooms from another that also grows broom straw, a local blacksmith's goods & the list goes on and on. Yup, we're doing it, digging it and loving it! We respect this land, take from it & give back to it. The one thing that I see missing from all of these blurbs is the importance of being surrounded by people & community of a like mind. That's what makes it work, really work. When a lot of people are busting ass to live a certain way, a sufficient way, it makes the journey far more easy & far more rewarding.

Thanks Michael - Ok 1 more.
We also put in a pond, fed by run off & a couple small springs, that's stocked with brim, bass & catfish that we also use from time to time when super hot July weather doesn't gift us any rain. Just grab a shovel or an axe my new friend, there's not much that you'll do, that you can't re-do or un-do if necessary.. trust me on that one.
M

This is a fun thread. I've bren too busy lately out permaculturing to read forums much:)

We are doing it, really, here in Rhode Island. We haven't grown a huge crop of money but the food does come galloping out of the earth as fast as we can use it, and we are building a great supportive hard-working community. I see good results from my soil building work, although I haven't done a proper hugel yet.

I consider my main job still to be observing. I am thinking of the future, and I expect to reap many rewards.

If you would like to see how it really really works, come to Rhode Island and visit. You might be disappionted, I don't know, but we are satisfied.

Hi Marianne,

Thanks for the pictures!

If you don't mind my asking, how did you come about owning your property? Do you have any advice for us who are interested in purchasing some?

Also, perhaps more importantly, how would you describe the progression of development on your property from first glance to it's current state? What changes had to be made? What problems did you encounter? What would you do differently if you could? What are your future goals?

Jay Green wrote:It's a fair question. How about a show of hands on this forum alone? Anyone truly living a permie lifestyle in every aspect and producing even enough food for their own families without spending more than they would on just buying it from a local grower?

I'm as curious as the OP....

I'm raising my hand Jay about raising enough food and spend very little at this stage on purchased produce, but sometimes you just gotta have an avocado which won't grow here. Please keep in mind that we've worked on creating our place for 15 years, which means 10 glorious years of composted veggie beds (going to start hugl. this fall) and old forest floor briming with earthly goodness etc. We grow only heirlooms and perennial veggies so never an expense for starts or seeds or soil amendments etc. Hands down about a permie lifestyle in every aspect as I bang away on my satellite internet powered by the grid.

Collin Vickers wrote:Hi Marianne,

Thanks for the pictures!

If you don't mind my asking, how did you come about owning your property? Do you have any advice for us who are interested in purchasing some?

Also, perhaps more importantly, how would you describe the progression of development on your property from first glance to it's current state? What changes had to be made? What problems did you encounter? What would you do differently if you could? What are your future goals?

Hey Collin-
Our property. First came the list: we love the mountains which was our first thought, but then the reality of do we want to be on a mountain top in the dead of winter when we're 85 years old if something happened and either of us needed medical attention? so we decided on good rolling hills vs mt. we then made the list that began with being within 3 hours of where we were living at the time since we knew it would take years of work before we'd move there full time: 1. minimum acreage 2. running water aka river or creek 3. springs 4. not used for farming in the past. We didn't want to buy exhausted land that in all likelihood had years of toxic amendments 5. off the beaten path aka we are almost 2 miles off of blacktopped road 6. surrounding townships with multiple generations. TO clarify we wanted a stable town where people living there had generations of vested interest. In this town, it's common to see 3 or 4 generations sitting at the diner sharing a meal. 7. easy access (within an hour's drive) of a big city 8. totally undeveloped. We didn't want housing structures although an existing barn would have been a HUGE +.
9. PATIENCE!!! I can't tell you how many parcels we checked out, but when we walked our current place (with a bush axe) we knew it instantly and made the deal right then. Trust your gut, you'll know it when you see it.

We had planned on parking a pop-up to use as we began to clear and develope the dirt etc. One day my husband came back from making a run with some pics he shot. One of them was of his boot (he's a big guy 6'3") next to a bear foot print which was just as big. Our plans of building a structure in 5 or so years, quickly backed up. My biggest regret is that we built our log cabin before our barns - totally ass backwards. All outbuilding structures should be 1st on the list of structures, then the home. Storing a tractor etc in the den isn't a good idea~

goal - totally off the grid. Great advances have been made with 3 options now vs the standard 2, but still waiting on a bit more efficiency as well as waiting on saving more $$$$.
hope this is helpful
Marianne

Hi Colin
this is how we live


http://permaculture.org.au/2012/06/01/zaytuna-farm-video-tour-apr-may-2012-ten-years-of-revolutionary-design/


We produce around $100,000 worth of food at organic retail price a year and consumer 99% of it on farm serving 25,000 meals a year to students, interns and staff.

Geoff Lawton wrote:Hi Colin
this is how we live


http://permaculture.org.au/2012/06/01/zaytuna-farm-video-tour-apr-may-2012-ten-years-of-revolutionary-design/


We produce around $100,000 worth of food at organic retail price a year and consumer 99% of it on farm serving 25,000 meals a year to students, interns and staff.

Props. It doesn't look impossibly hard either. I think the biggest thing I need to learn is about water harvesting and water catchment systems. Do you have any good references for learning what I need to know about these?

Hi Michael
yes water harvesting is a priority in consultancy analysis water, access, structures, 1,2,3).

There are not that many good all inclusive permaculture water harvesting design books out there, Brad Lancaster has done some great work on drylands mostly suburban.

Try this set of references:

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=005882427699693072259:-ubk9xtrqgq&ie=UTF-8&q=Water+harvesting&sa=Search&siteurl=permaculture.org.au/2012/06/01/zaytuna-farm-video-tour-apr-may-2012-ten-years-of-revolutionary-design/&ref=www.google.com/cse?cx=005882427699693072259%3A-ubk9xtrqgq&ie=UTF-8&q=10+year&sa=Search&siteurl=permaculture.org.au%2Fpage%2F7%2F&ref=permaculture.org.au%2Fpage%2F6%2F&ss=8375j5598309j19&ss=5522j2286616j17#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=Water+harvesting&gsc.page=1


Cheers Geoff Lawton

Check out www.permaculture.org.au/permies

Permaculture without ethics is not permaculture. Remove them and you are left with agroecology, holistic land management, eco buildling, Yeoman's Keyline system, and a whole host of other disciplines. What unites them all are the ethics of permaculture. Geoff Lawton spoke of this in his latest podcast with Paul: when he asked why a client had chose him above all the others, they said he was the only one who said "They all work, now lets fit them together." (Not a direct quote). Geoff's attitude, informed by his own personality and deep understanding of the ethics of permaculture, set him apart from those preaching one way or the other as "all you need."

While a PDC is not necessary to practice permaculture (I haven't taken one yet, hopefully this coming year), I do wonder if those asking for "results" and blueprints have taken one? Maybe then permaculture as a design and ethical framework will become more apparent and the pieces will come together?

My family started our journey in November 2010 and by June 2012 when I left for Finland, we have experienced dramatic improvements in our soil health, the health of the existing trees, an increase in biodiversity, and - through some rough patches- more satisfaction with life. We were armed with Edible Forest Gardens, PRI Australia, Permies, Gaia's Garden (read that after EFG), and Sepp Holzer's work. While I was still in the States, there wasn't anywhere I would rather have been than in our budding forest garden. If you visit my post here on permies, you can watch the slide shows I've been putting together. There is over three hours of video stretched across six episodes- and I haven't even started 2012 yet. I'm set to start making them again to finish up through June now that things are settling down here (although I did just get my residence permit, so the job search begins). They aren't anything great and wonderful, but you can clearly see a transformation even if you decide to mute my annoying commentary

Edit-fixed some of the more egregious grammar mistakes.

Geoff Lawton wrote:Hi Colin
this is how we live


http://permaculture.org.au/2012/06/01/zaytuna-farm-video-tour-apr-may-2012-ten-years-of-revolutionary-design/


We produce around $100,000 worth of food at organic retail price a year and consumer 99% of it on farm serving 25,000 meals a year to students, interns and staff.

Thank you for the link Geoff - totally turned on and deep in thought about adding very long swales on 2 natural plateaus on our land and another couple dams. thanks, I was ready for a really exciting addition!
Marianne

If you want more examples of how permaculture can work here are a few numbers of mine, I assure you they are low estimetes of the actual yeild. On an acre with a third covered with buildings and animal pens the annual average yeilds are as follows. Pears 80 5 gallon pails, Tejocote 50 pails, Chilacayote 100-300 squashes, Chayote 20 pails of tubers and 20 pails of fruits , Peaches 1 pail, Cactus pears 5lb, Fig 1 pail, Avacado 1-3 pails, Swiss Chard 30lb, Tomatillio 8lb, Sunberry 3lb, Capuli Cherry 2 pails, Strawberries 3lb, Plumbs 1lb, Oranges 1 pail, Lemons 1 pail, Thyme 1500 bunches at 25 cents a bunch, Rosemary 50 bunches, Oregano 800 bunches, Cactus leaves 8lb, Mint 400 bunches, Epazote, 100 bunches, Arnica 70 bunches, Other herbs and spices 200 bunches, Guasuntle 50 bunches, Green Animal fodder 3000lb, Wood 500lb, Saplings 100.
I cant count the chicken eggs or lamb chops because they eat food grown elsewhere I,d say about 30% of the animals food comes from there. I could increase production more if I had goats to eat all the tree leaves that fall but it would be to much work to gather the leaves from among the crops on the ground.

Lots and lots of work to harvest in such a dense and scattered place but produce it does the main boost in production comes from cutting the weeds by hand and feeding them to the livestock. This allows things like the Fig leaf squash plants to gain size while Fodder is still being produced on the same land.
I add some manure but I think I am taking out more that what I put in. Most of the manure is hauled off to some of our other properties.
I probably should mention that the land is irrigated and no till. The land is still not at it's maximum yeild potential and nowhere near its maximum revenue potential. As far as money goes if I can make the other 18 acres produce like the acre I am referring to than I should be making about 50k. Right now we make about $2000 per year from the 1 acre but we consume a lot too. We have 10 acres of imature plantation, the first harvest should be next year. I suppose that over the past 2 years I've spent $20000 on land and farming that has yet to pay me back one cent. But pay it will in the long run no doubt about it.

Permaculture without ethics is not permaculture.

I guess I'm confused.

Did somebody, somewhere, say they were doing some permaculture without ethics? What would that be? Grinding up babies and using them for fertilizer?

I hear this a lot, and I am utterly confused as to where the unethical behavior in the name of permaculture. Well, except, of course for the stuff where people will steal Geoff's DVD or Toby's book and say "I do this in the name of the third ethic!" - now that strikes me as unethical behavior.

But is there somebody out there doing, say, keyline stuff, but they have such horrible ethics that we should make sure they don't call it permaculture?

I guess I'm confused. There must be horrible, rampant problems throughout the permaculture world to make it so that I hear this statement over and over "permaculture without ethics is not permaculture." I cannot argue for it or against it because I cannot wrap my head around any examples.

Paul,

I'm confused as well- because permaculture does have a set of ethics that inform the decisions of permaculture practitioners. The ethics of permaculture inform our practices, our business models, and our lives. They allow practitioners to utilize techniques from varying systems- permaculture is not just a recipe book of techniques.

I feel that this is something we should keep in mind. Not because I see anyone grinding up babies, no, I mention that permaculture is based on an ethical framework so that our expectations do not demand more of it than it is.

For example, George Hayduke implies that permaculture is an agricultural system in his post on page two:

Can't speak for Vickers, but I'm drawn to permaculture because its fundamental promise is a sustainable, self-sufficient, virtually closed system of food production that ultimately requires minimal labor and maximizes the value of the only 'free lunch' we get as a species: solar energy. Other agricultural techniques are much more reliant on the stored solar energy of petroleum, and I think ultimately that's a losing game. If we can go easier on the planet, raise healthier food, and have prettier gardens as a result, those are nice collateral benefits. But, objective truth and measurable results matter.

-Emphasis added.

I fundamentally disagree with this description of permaculture. Permaculture is an ethical framework, not an agricultural technique. Now, I am not saying that Mr. Hayduke's experiment is not permaculture. I'm not throwing cold water on his experiment either, on the contrary, I wish I could fence off an acre and apply permaculture techniques!

If we limit permaculture to being an agricultural technique, a business model, or anything other than an ethical framework that we can apply to all areas of our lives, then I feel that we are misinterpreting what permaculture is.

We can test the efficacy of water harvesting, nutrient cycling, function stacking, etc. We can gather hard data on the effectiveness of different polycultures, different compost tea recipes, but how do we test the ethical foundations? That is a judgement call based upon personal assumptions and social observation. I don't want to engage in that- I doubt I'll ever remove the mote from my own eye.

No, I just believe that we should manage our expectations. Permaculture doesn't promise us anything. The ethics of permaculture enable the practitioner to pick and choose between different techniques- be it green building, drawing up a business plan, or what have you- and fit them together under a set of unifying principles. How we as individuals use this framework is up to us.

All that said, I completely respect any decision regarding moderation of this post.

Edit- And before anyone asks who died and made me king- the answer would be no one. I honestly do not feel that is is presumptuous to remember the ethical foundation when we start wondering if anyone is actually able to do this.

Joshua Finch wrote: Permaculture is an ethical framework

I might be nitpicking language here, but I see permaculture as a design system based on an ethical framework. That is, the ethics are used to make decisions which are acted upon through design, in my opinion.

From my point of view, permaculture has nothing new to add to the world as far as ethics are concerned - Mollison's trio amounts to a restatement of values expressed in numerous belief systems over a wide range of contexts.

The innovative energy of permaculture is invested in improved techniques for all kinds of applications, including agriculture.

These qualia don't serve to divest the permaculture movement of its role in shaping human behavior, but it does mean that practical innovation is the more important aspect. This is to say, the ethics of permaculture are satisfied by following the techniques of permaculture.

I think Paul's point is that the ethics are being used in self-serving ways, against the very principles advocated by the ethics themselves.

Collin Vickers wrote:From my point of view, permaculture has nothing new to add to the world as far as ethics are concerned - Mollison's trio amounts to a restatement of values expressed in numerous belief systems over a wide range of contexts.

Mollison claimed permaculture contains nothing new.

Collin Vickers wrote:
I think Paul's point is that the ethics are being used in self-serving ways, against the very principles advocated by the ethics themselves.

I tend to suspect by people not actually practicing permaculture........but that's just my sneaky suspicion.....

Tyler, I agree.

Collin, I disagree:

This is to say, the ethics of permaculture are satisfied by following the techniques of permaculture.

In my opinion, there are no techniques that are permaculture. Put another way, if we were asked, "Which techniques are absolutely essential to a permaculture project, that without them, we would not call it permaculture?" As every site is different, the techniques employed vary. The techniques permaculturalists are just that- techniques. While some may be used by permaculturalists more than others, this does not preclude their use by people practicing something altogether not permaculture.

I do agree when you say:

The innovative energy of permaculture is invested in improved techniques for all kinds of applications, including agriculture.

I don't disagree at all that the ethics can and are being used in self serving manner to discourage innovation. Now, if anyone believes that my posts here run in this vein, that is entirely up to them.

I feel that I am really doing permaculture even though I may not, or may never be, as successful as the most famous practitioners. My projects may not be as interesting as others, but that doesn't keep them from being truly permaculture as long as I reflect upon the ethics. The same goes for anyone else, IMO.

Anyway, I'll bow out of this thread by agreeing to disagree.

I'll give you an example.

If someone wants to grow food on a piece of land without requiring external fertilizer inputs, they can do so by using a range of techniques selected according to the characteristics of the land being used. This decision to avoid external inputs isn't necessarily an ethical choice, because it could simply be a strategy for saving money, or there might not be an alternative for one reason or another - it could even be a problem of sheer laziness. The permaculturist involved may not have given any thought to the ethical implications of the matter. Yet, in this instance, the ethic of earth care is being accomodated as a byproduct of using permie methods, since pollutant levels on the land/because of the land will be reduced.

The practitioner in question might elect instead to use conventional fertilizers on their land. Doing so would afford them short-term benefits, but ultimately the land would be destroyed and their investment would be lost - emperical observation has proven this repeatedly. Their choice is a practical one, not necessarily an ethical one.

The sticking point here seems to be the ethic of sharing surplus. The counterfeits indicated by Paul are typically using this third ethic as a justification for appropriating something for themselves free of charge, and using it again to slander others if they don't get what they want.

Perhaps I'm one of them. After all, in the original post I'm asking the permie world to give me their valued insights without having first payed my dues to be on equal footing with them. Instead of asking for the information for free, I could pay someone a fair price for that information in the form of a PDC, apprenticeship, or book, (and I have bought many books and the like from practicing permies). But this is an open forum, where, presumably, the people involved are collaborating with one another for mutual and reciprocal benefit.

In any case, none of the greats in permaculture owe anyone anything, so if they ignore my inquiry and demand payment for their expertise, they are well within their rights, (though I think it's fair to ask for proof, if someone is presenting themself as an expert, and claiming that their methods are superior to alternatives, which is the original crux of this thread).

Paul said it before, in one of his podcasts. It's up to the person with the surprlus to decide what, how much, and to whom to give it.

Permaculture is a comprehensive displine, an evolving science, consisting of techniques for continuing our existence as a species in the cosmos. I, as a wanna-be practitioner, choose these methods because they are better than the alternative methods with which I am familiar. Permaculture is good for me. If it's good for me, it's good for you, and by extension the whole planet.

So, as far as I'm concerned, permaculture begins with practicality - if we don't eventually all do it, we all eventually die. The vagaries of ethics belong elsewhere.

I would humbly like to assert my opinion on the matter most recently brought up. I think it is entirely possible for the foundational ethics of permaculture to be misunderstood and brushed aside in favor of the practice of the techniques that permaculture emphasizes, which can be much less drastic than fertilizing with dead babies. In this way it's not that the individual practicing "permaculture" is being unethical, it's that they are not basing their practice on the fundamental ethics. There is a difference. I think that as permaculture has been popularized, as people come to permaculture for more reasons than "oh shit, we're fucking up the world, what do we do?" (which, when talking to older permaculturists seems to be one of the main reasons for them finding permaculture,) people seem to think that permaculture is more about the techniques than the reason for using the techniques. This is a philosophical problem, and I know that there are many who are just not into philosophy, but every individual has a philosophy (a guiding set of convictions that determines their actions) whether or not they are conscious of it, and by becoming more conscious of their reasons for doing things can be more grounded and intentional in their practice. I encourage people to read David Holmgren's "Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability" if they are interested in becoming more conscious of the reasons for the practices of permaculture. Also, what separates the ethics of permaculture from other belief systems (ethics are never really new) is that we now live in a globalized world where it is actually possible that we destroy it. It comes from this post-modernist/post-nuclear realization that we can kill ourselves if we do not take care of the earth first, the people second, and the resources third.

This is a great discussion. It seems that we are discussing the intent of the techniques, which hopefully would be the ethics. I think that people can get pigeonholed into my way versus your way and really both ethics and techniques is the best answer. Without the other, neither really is a complete picture of permaculture, in my opinion.
John S
PDX OR

Collin Vickers wrote:
So, as far as I'm concerned, permaculture begins with practicality - if we don't eventually all do it, we all eventually die.

From my point of view, the ethics are completely practical. If we don't care for the Earth in a manner which supports the web of life upon which we depend, we will die. If we don't care for People, being people ourselves, a social animal who depend upon each other for survival, we'll die. If we don't return the surplus to the system to further the above two ethics, we'll fail and, of course, die.

I am going to annoy someone again and bring up what happened to the word "organic". When I first read about organics in the sixties it was presented as a whole life philosophy....one that I embraced as a lifestyle. Techniques changed over the years...acceptable farm inputs changed but basic principles/ethics remained the same (very similar to those of permaculture)..... until it became a market driven word and separated from it's philosophy, becoming just a set of techniques used by big ag for profit ( and to bend to their bottom line). Anyway, I can empathize with concern for the idea of "permaculture" and all that it embraces being missused/corrupted/ whatever.......

(Typing on my blackberry)

I wish to be clear. On this site if somebody says "I like permacultue because of the carrots." I think that is a valid statement.

If somebody responds to that statement and says "you cannot say that because you did't mention the ethics." I will delete the second statement.

Pretty much any statement that attempts to belittle another statement becuase there is a lack of mention of the ethics is a good candidate for deletion.

Further, I stil have yet to read in this thread about a scenario where somebody is doing permaculture without ethics, but adding in the ethics fixes things. Therefore, I think that we can assume that the people that are praticing permaculture are exercizing the ethics until we see evidence to the contrary. The corollary is that mentioning concern over not mentioning the ethics is suggesting that somebody is practicing permaculture without ethics. And that is suggesting that somebody on permies is less than perfect. And that is not allowed on permies.com.

Personally, I don't care *why* someone chooses to plant edibles and natives in their landscape, or reduce runoff, or stop using harmful chemicals or whatever it is they are doing to care for their little corner of earth. They may do it for religious reasons, practical reasons, aesthetic reasons or many others, some of which I may or may not disagree with. I'm just glad they are doing it.

Whenever a special interest group starts thinking that everyone who is going to be "in" the group has to have exactly the same viewpoint, it restricts the flow of information. If Harriet Homeowner decides to stop *one* environmentally negative habit because of a article or a forum post on permaculture, I think that's a win. As soon as she is excluded because she doesn't (or doesn't yet) embrace the larger issues, it shuts down the arc of learning.

I think Judith has a good point about the label "organic" being co-opted by financial concerns. The existing organic farmers and gardeners didn't stop what they are doing simply because there are giant monocrop organic commercial farms now, and their ethical framework didn't change. But legions of home gardeners became interested in organic methods, and that's an enormous change from when I was a kid and home gardeners drowned all their plants in Sevin dust without a second thought. I think that's a fair trade-off -- but those who approach organic from an ethical framework have to stay connected and help drive the discussion.

If permaculture ever has an issue with large commercial food forests being planted, that will be a high class problem to have.