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Improving clay soil on the cheap

 
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Getting back on the topic of improving clay soil after using quite a bit of gravel in the plantings, it greatly improves drainage.  You can hardly notice that it is there when you move the plant later.  

John S
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Betsy Carraway wrote:Hi, for Diane Kistner:  Maypop (passiflora Incarnata, or just "passiflora") is safe and popular herbal throughout Europe, Central and South America, and maybe more; it is commonly used as an extract, tea, or in capsules, for anxiety issues, insomnia, and even babies' colic.  It is not only quite effective and lacking in any side effects, but safe at any dose, even for babies.  So you may wish to collect the mature Summer leaves, before fruit formation, and dry them in shade for use as tea or powdered.



Thank you, Betsy! I hadn't even thought of using the leaves. When you say mature leaves before the fruit is formed, if there are small fruits on the vine, can you still use the leaves? I actually see fruit pretty early here. And I've got one vine that puts out very large maypops, so I'm really looking forward to seeing how they taste.

 
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I make Calcium Water with VINEGAR and WOOD ASH !!
I apply it to my magnesium clay or works w Sodium dominant clay. The Ca+ water displaces the magnesium or sodium to lower the pH slightly so as to work to lower it further from there because in that initial pH range of 8 or so Phosphorous is not readily available so don't expect too much fruit the first season, but with regular applications of compost and mulch you can over a couple of years begin to transform the clay into great soil.
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John Suavecito
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Calcium water with vinegar and wood ash sounds like a good amendment for some very particular soil conditions.

John S
PDX OR
 
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Depending on the soil variables , this might cause flocculation of the clay, which I have always thought was a good thing!

Hopefully someone who knows more about flocculating clay will refresh my memory and or clarify what the variables are.
 
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Gypsum will soften heavy clay.  Voles don’t like  it either and try to avoid it.  We put tons of leaves on our growing areas every winter, and by spring they are mostly rotted down or at least so we can spread them and plant.  We do not work into the soil, but leave soil layers intact.  The earthworms do the real work,  fining those bits of leaves down into the subsoil.   Sometimes I have to put something down to prevent leaves from blowing away.  I put gypsum down before a good rain and do not work it in.  The rain melts in and it slowly absorbs into the soil.   You can also sprinkle baking soda on hard pan soils to soften them.  It floculates the soil.  
 
David Crimmins
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Yes Calcium water will flocculate clay! And its much cheaper yet similar to what gypsum does..
 
David Crimmins
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I need to add to the Ca+ water discussion.
BE CAREFUL W THIS STUFF!!
Many say dilute 1000 -to- 1.. I've had great results using a hose applicator thingy..
 
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A couple things
I broadforked our clayish garden soil this year (10'x20'. Broadforking is less damaging to the subsoil organisms. Then I added 40# of gypsum (calcium sulfate, which is water soluble, unlike lime, calcium carbonate) and then added a couple yards of compost on top. The compost was very work rich, so the expectation is that they'll tunnel down into the broken soul.
If you have access to leaves, I'd add them on top after broadforking and let them sit over winter. We them well.
I've just read an article about crushed volcanic rock absorbing atmospheric carbon. On a hunch, I looked up whether it would be good for Clay soil; turns out it is. Yes, it'll cost you, but would be easy to transport in bags in your car.
https://growingorganic.com/soil-guide/volcanic-rock-dust/
 
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I have tried two methods, both 'work'. My back yard is typical suburban soil, the developer stripped off the topsoil and left nothing but clay subsoil, very poor. For years I trenched 2-4 feet deep and buried all the fireplace ash and charcoal, leaves, paper, sticks etc and lots of kitchen waste. It slowly improved the soil, but it was still clearly heavy clay. Grew veggies just fine though. What really changed things was burning a huge pile of logs and sticks and then burying the remains, and also burying rotting logs and large branches. The next year was much improved.

On another garden I am trying corn in hills. Not trying to revive all the soil at the same time, only a hill every 4 feet. A lot easier to carry a bucket of dirt to each hill than to try to cover a whole large garden all at once. The corn hills got gypsum and a pile of better dirt, all mixed up with the base clay, straw, grass, whatever I could find. So really only spot fertilizing. Between the hills were potatoes, tomatoes, squash allowed to spread all over the open ground. It seems effective, and produced a decent crop this year. Looking forward to seeing how the hills do next year. I also decided to stop trying to repress the dandelions. Let them grow and send down huge tap roots.
 
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The thing about using ashes and gypsum to lighten clay soil is that ashes raise the pH dramatically, and gypsum lowers it. You might want to test the pH to see if you've arrived at a happy medium. I've used both--the gypsum in the form of wallboard scraps left over from building our house, I just laid them on the ground for a couple years before expanding into that area. It did seem to help a lot. With ashes, I'm not sure about the clay-lightening effects; I know it's similar to lime in its pH effects, and has a lot of potash, but haven't ever found out about other minerals. Since we heat with wood, this matters. My soil tests usually say I'm TOO high in things like calcium and magnesium. But some of this is because clay soil tends to be high in nutrients; it retains nutrients--and water--much better than sandy soil, that's the upside. By the way another approach to the dandelion effect is daikon radishes, but they need to be planted early enough in fall to make good growth before killing freezes, somewhere in the low twenties. The roots plunge deep, collecting nutrients maybe but also spiking down, opening pathways for water and air, and then if the daikon dies and rots, you've got that pocket of organic matter. Cover crops are good in general for adding organic matter to your soil without having to haul it in; daikons are particularly good for punching through hardpan, for improving subsoil.
 
Thom Bri
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Mary Cook wrote:The thing about using ashes and gypsum to lighten clay soil is that ashes raise the pH dramatically, and gypsum lowers it. You might want to test the pH to see if you've arrived at a happy medium. I've used both--the gypsum in the form of wallboard scraps left over from building our house, I just laid them on the ground for a couple years before expanding into that area. It did seem to help a lot. With ashes, I'm not sure about the clay-lightening effects; I know it's similar to lime in its pH effects, and has a lot of potash, but haven't ever found out about other minerals. Since we heat with wood, this matters. My soil tests usually say I'm TOO high in things like calcium and magnesium. But some of this is because clay soil tends to be high in nutrients; it retains nutrients--and water--much better than sandy soil, that's the upside. By the way another approach to the dandelion effect is daikon radishes, but they need to be planted early enough in fall to make good growth before killing freezes, somewhere in the low twenties. The roots plunge deep, collecting nutrients maybe but also spiking down, opening pathways for water and air, and then if the daikon dies and rots, you've got that pocket of organic matter. Cover crops are good in general for adding organic matter to your soil without having to haul it in; daikons are particularly good for punching through hardpan, for improving subsoil.



The ash plus charcoal layers are consistently looser and finer than the layers with just leaves and clay. Kitchen waste with lots of eggshells is always very loose too. I think they help a lot. Honestly have no idea how the base/acid balance is, but the things I want to grow seem to usually do well, so I believe I am not too out of whack.
 
John Suavecito
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For those of you interested in what Thom Bri is doing with the soil, there is a whole forum dedicated to this process, the biochar forum:

https://permies.com/f/190/biochar

John S
PDX OR
 
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With clay, more organic matter is always better. Add everything you can, especially on top of the soil. Burying things in clay, whether in an arid location or a soggy one, can lead to things becoming sort of petrified (I'm still pulling left over "slash" logs out of my very slowly developing pasture buried in the bentonite layer, fresh as the day they were squished under by the skidders 15 years ago or more!)

Chemistry is big, too - as mentioned previously, gypsum, or even more specifically sulfur, helps break some of the weaker bonds (specifically with magnesium) in the clay allowing deflocculation and the release of nutrients that would otherwise be bound up. Of course, adding straight elemental sulfur does acidify the soil, so be sure to compensate with more potassium, calcium, etc (wood ash and bone char is great!) if your soil is already acid / low pH (likely true if you're in a very rainy area, while drier areas tend toward base / high pH)

Charcoal / biochar is like organic matter on nootropics and a longevity regime. With heavy clay, I'd recommend chunky biochar rather than powder. That's not based on any research or science...just my gut

And finally, fungus is great stuff. Exudates like glomalin will create soil structure which is really hard to get in heavy clay. I'm often jealous looking at other people's "chocolate cake" soil, but even I've started to get that in places where fungal networks, combined with lots of organic matter like rotted wood and heavy mulching, have had time to work their magic. It's hard to leave a garden bed alone when you're trying so hard to build soil fast, but it's also one of the most important things to do to help speed up that process. Don't destroy your mycelial networks every year, and when you have to turn the soil (like when harvesting potatoes), at least bury a few rotten sticks and logs, then spread a good heavy layer of mulch back over the area when you're done.

Combine everything, grow massive amounts of biomass, interplant to the point you have a hard time listing off what you've planted in a given bed, and let it cook for a while.

What improves clay soil cheaply? Everything all at once, and the more you throw at it, the better!

Only thing I've seen in the thread that I have to disagree with is the sand thing...I make a lot of cob around here, and that's how I do it. My tomatoes do not grow in cob.
 
Mary Cook
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I disagree with some of that, while finding the mention about sulfur useful. I once got my soil tested by a fancy private lab, to get more complete results than the Extension gives, and sulfur was the one thing my soil is deficient in. But I can buy it as a powder. That it lowers pH is not a problem, as I heat with wood and thus have lots of wood ashes to dispose of.
I'd think burying organic matter in clay would improve the soil, unless you're talking deep burial and/or really dense clay. Adding lots of organic matter to clay is beneficial, as you say (perhaps even more beneficial for those whose problem is excessively sandy soil).
I've had endless arguments about adding sand to clay soil. Everyone "knows" that "clay plus sand is the formula for bricks." What I know is this: I add sand to my clay soil and it gets softer, looser, more friable and I get better carrots in particular--it was for carrots that I first began adding sand.  After 15 years, much of my soil now is chocolate cake--at least, at the right time after the last rain. That's the thing about clay soil, it can fool you if you check it out when it's at the optimum after rain. If it's still soggy, it looks gluey, gooey, clayey. If you wait and check it after a week of blazing sun and no rain, it can look a lot like concrete. The cure is organic matter, and I think almost anything helps--chopped leaves, compost, leafmold, manure, peat moss, coffee grounds etc--quantity matters more than quality although obviously you want to avoid anything with toxins in it, or extremes of pH, or importing diseases or pest bugs. But I have tilled or turned my soil over with a shovel, added the organic matter and sometimes sand, then worked it all in, quite finely with my hands if the upcoming crop will be lettuce or carrots or the like that need a fine seedbed. And I advocate doing this at least at the outset with a new garden. Once you've got the soil in good shape, you can get by with minimum disturbance--you still need to add organic matter but doing it from the top is good enough. You need mulch anyway, which often decomposes down into the soil gradually, so that's another source.
 
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We have very clayey soil here, which has a been a head scratcher for me, used to newer glacial soil in the Pacific Northwest.  But after seeing how well things seem to grow in it, it's starting to feel a little more like something we can deal with.  Apparently not near as bad as some of you are up against.

One aspect that's different here, the soil is calcareous and pH 8.2.  A few things aren't happy at all.  I spread daikon radish seed all over, and got 3 survivors;  most of the sprouts didn't get beyond a couple of little yellow leaves.  But artichokes are fine with it, and they're supposed to be good sort of of cover crop for clay, so I'm going to sow some more this week.

I'd like to try wood chips if I could get a hold of some.  This is probably common knowledge here, but wood decomposition involves a heavy fungus cycle that locks up all the nitrogen, because fungus cell walls are made of chitin.  So I probably wouldn't put a big pile of chips down and then try to grow vegetables right there.  I am going to steer clear of sand, but a local landscaper says it's the ticket, and I imagine he does to some extent know what he's doing.  Maybe it depends on the nature of the clay.  They use sand from the coastal areas where miles inland it's like the beach - it isn't coarse sand, that I've seen anyway.
 
John Suavecito
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Donn,
As you will see all over permies.com, if you put organic mulch on top of the soil, but don't dig it in, it won't mess with the nitrogen-carbon mix. This has been tested many times in peer reviewed articles. I've seen it from Linda Chalker-Scott, if you need a reference.  I've done it here for years.  The worms will take down tiny chunks of it, and other life will use it when it wants to.  It doesn't lock up the nitrogen, because it builds an overall life system with the microbiology.

There is a garden here in Portland using the Paul Gautshci/Return to Eden method.  They did that with deep mulch, like a foot thick.  They have been doing it for years.  They don't water at all!  It gets over 100 F here many days in the summer and it won't rain at all for a month and a half in the summer during those many days of 90s and 110s F.  All of the small vegetable plants were very healthy.  It was amazing.  We also have natural clay soil.


John S
PDX OR
 
Tristan Vitali
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Mary Cook wrote:I'd think burying organic matter in clay would improve the soil, unless you're talking deep burial and/or really dense clay.



I should probably clarify and give my own experience on this. Very dense clay with mostly wet most of the year is my site conditions and things just don't rot down in it. The clay soil becomes anaerobic quickly and any buried organic matter is preserved. While digging ponds with backhoes and excavators where the loggers had buried slash 15 or more years ago, there were bucket loads of unrotted leaves and needles, twigs and even clumps of grasses coming up, and it smelled very swampy. Bringing this organic matter back to the surface allowed it to rot quickly (largest trunks and root balls we pulled out went into huglekulture!) but where it was, it was just sitting in an underground bog for more than a decade. We have both a bentonite type clay and one that fires up "brick red", and they both create the same issues with anaerobic "pickling" of organic matter.

People around here usually drown their trees trying to follow the standard tree-planting directions - by mixing amendments into the soil, they've basically planted the tree in a tiny bathtub filled with muddy water. Unless it's a dry year, the tree is drowned by August.

In dense clay in arid locations, a similar thing happens as a dense clay will prevent the little bit of moisture received from reaching the organic material, so it sort of mummifies in the soil, never really decomposing. This would be more of an issue with a clay type that's more likely to seal organic matter away from water reaching it, similar to building a dam with clay soil to hold back a pond.

So, like everything else in permaculture, "it depends"  If the clay isn't too dense (ie drains quickly enough) or of the right type, and you have enough rainfall or irrigation so things are able to decompose in a reasonable amount of time, burying organic matter would only speed up the process of building soil. On the other hand, too pure of a wrong type of clay combined with non-ideal conditions will need special care.

Mary Cook wrote:I've had endless arguments about adding sand to clay soil. Everyone "knows" that "clay plus sand is the formula for bricks." What I know is this: I add sand to my clay soil and it gets softer, looser, more friable and I get better carrots in particular--it was for carrots that I first began adding sand.



I think one of the things that makes sense with all the add sand to clay mess is, again, a classic "it depends". Pure clay and only so much sand is going to make bricks, but clayey soil with lots of sand would probably work out just fine. Ideal "medium loam" is what? 15% clay, 45% sand and 40% silt? An ideal cob might be somewhere around 40% clay to 60% sand, depending on clay type and sharpness of the sand. If starting from a soil base that's 60%+ clay, it would require an awful lot of sand to not just make cob out of it, but if it's just a clayey soil with 20 to 30% clay, you could much more easily reach a medium loam type level with addition of sand.

It's wonky stuff sometimes even trying to come up with arbitrary percentages, too, because different clay types can behave pretty differently. Every situation is going to be different.
 
Thekla McDaniels
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Great illustration of anaerobic conditions preserving organic material!

When I add sand to clay, I try NOT to make cob out of it.  I make nodules of clay separated by channels of sand…. with my broadfork, not a rototiller.  I imagine i am making incursions into the “hostile” environment of pure clay.  The surfaces of the clay clumps or nodules, where they border on sand, that’s where the miracles are going to happen.  It’s a little like just layering the amendments on the surface of the soil, only i have multiplied the volume of, and surface areas of border between clay and sand.

What i am aiming at is aerating the proto-soil.  If I make channels among and between the clods of clay, it allows for air to get in and out, allows rainfall to soak in, allows worms access, and they pull bits of leaves down little holes they make.

IMO, it’s not the percentages of the different elements that is important, it’s the texture of the soil.  To end up with cottage cheese like texture, I don’t try to mix every thing up.  Given time and materials, the worms and other soil organisms will do the mixing.
 
John Suavecito
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I still think that for almost all applications, gravel will be better for heavy clay than sand.  It won't turn into concrete and it will drain better.

Of course, I'm going to add some organic material on the top and let it naturally come down.  I've done that for years.

John S
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Thekla McDaniels
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Hi John, do you have a particular size of gravel in mind?
 
John Suavecito
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The heavier the clay, the bigger the gravel.  Pea gravel is fine for moderate loamy clay, but bigger, sharper gravel would be better for really heavy clay that water hardly drains through.  Like sharp, 1/4-1/2 inch.
John S
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Thekla McDaniels
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Next time I have clay to bring along into soil, I think it would be interesting to have a couple test plots, one for sand and one for gravel.  I’m having trouble, nay, my mind is finding it impossible to imagine how gravel could accomplish the same that an equal volume of sand would.

And that’s precisely why I would enjoy testing it.  That my mind can’t picture it has no bearing whatsoever on how gravel transforms clay!  And I am suspicious of my mind’s level of resistance, when I am usually so curious about new (to me) ideas!
 
John Suavecito
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It's worked well for me for decades.
John S
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Mary Cook
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I think Tristan is onto something--the idea that "it depends" and you can't make blanket statements about most garden questions, because conditions differ not only between different regions but even, for example, my garden and my neighbor's 700 feet away, which is sandy. I suspect the reason there is so much argument about adding sand to clay soil is that different types and densities of clay react differently. The article I read that talked about the "myth" that adding sand to clay would make it worse, mentioned something about some kind of clay they have in the Southwest, maybe what they make adobe of, where it would be a bad idea. I think the same article also said to use, if I remember right, builder's sand rather than playground sand. Anyway, I think it's the coarse sand you want, not the fine stuff. But I wouldn't use gravel--that would be fine for some things but bad for the carrot crop. I think the guy in Portugal should try lightening his soil with sulfur or gypsum, since that will lower the pH--8.2 seems really high. For the guy in Maine, that seems really challenging but I'm wondering sand wouldn't help, since the density of the clay must be part of why organic matter doesn't rot. But I'll also mention that I found a solution for the one garden that has poor drainage--I made tall raised beds, working in a lot of stuff--also of course raking in topsoil from the aisles between beds. That's the place I used gypsum, from wallboard scraps, and that end had better soil for awhile, till I'd added enough organic matter (and sand) to the rest,
 
Thekla McDaniels
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John Suavecito wrote:It's worked well for me for decades.
John S
PDX OR



Good to know!
 
Thekla McDaniels
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There are a lot of myths about soil pH.  We have alkaline soil in my region.  Soil pH is easily 8 and beyond.  The Intelligent Gardener by Steve Solomon is where I learned about alkaline soil, and how to interpret recommendations to acidify the soil.  I recommend it highly.

If a person wants to grow blueberries, its a matter of burying wood beneath, just creating a blueberry zone.
 

Elaine Ingham has also pointed out that soil is not uniform throughout, in pH or anything else.  The soil pH tests are averaging all the points of the soil sample, but that isn’t necessarily the pH at any given point.

With live soil gardening, fungi create and use acids to dissolve needed minerals from “rocks”, which can be particles of sand or boulders or anything in between 😊.  Right next to the roots, where plant exudates have been supplied, a different process is happening.

pH measurement is a useful tool among many.
 
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I have a suggestion that is basically free and only requires a little work--build a compost pile IN the garden bed.  This is the perfect time of the year to do it also.  Since it is Fall (in the Northern Hemisphere), building a compost pile in the bed will keep some microbial activity going even as winter sets in.  Earthworms will be more active longer and in some places just won't quit doing their thing.  As the pile starts to decompose, all the organic goodies that come from a compost pile will seep into the ground beneath.  With a little luck, the ground and the pile will start to merge together and by spring the soil beneath the pile will be in much, much better condition.  And if that pile is not actually gone by that point, just use it to start another pile--ideally in a new place in the garden.

Eric
 
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It gets better, way better.
ChatGPT:

? the chemical composition and reaction when vinegar is mixed with ash ?

ChatGPT

When vinegar (acetic acid) is mixed with ash, a chemical reaction occurs, leading to the formation of water, carbon dioxide, and salts. The reaction can be described as an acid-base neutralization reaction. The chemical equation for this reaction, considering a simplified scenario, is as follows:

\text{2 CH}_3\text{COOH} + \text{CaCO}_3 \rightarrow \text{Ca}(\text{CH}_3\text{COO})_2 + \text{H}_2\text{O} + \text{CO}_22 CH3​COOH+CaCO3​→Ca(CH3​COO)2​+H2​O+CO2​

Here's the breakdown of the reaction:

Vinegar (Acetic Acid):

The main component of vinegar is acetic acid, represented by the formula \text{CH}_3\text{COOH}CH3​COOH.

Ash (Calcium Carbonate - CaCO3):

Ash often contains alkaline substances like calcium carbonate (\text{CaCO}_3CaCO3​).

Reaction:

In the reaction, acetic acid reacts with calcium carbonate. The acid (vinegar) reacts with the base (calcium carbonate) in a neutralization reaction.

Products:

The products of the reaction are water (\text{H}_2\text{O}H2​O), carbon dioxide (\text{CO}_2CO2​), and a salt called calcium acetate (\text{Ca}(\text{CH}_3\text{COO})_2Ca(CH3​COO)2​).

\text{Ca}(\text{CH}_3\text{COO})_2Ca(CH3​COO)2​ is a calcium salt of acetic acid.

Balancing the Equation:

The equation is balanced, meaning that the same number of each type of atom is present on both sides of the arrow.

It's important to note that the specific composition of ash can vary depending on the material that was burned. Different types of wood, plants, or other materials may produce ash with varying alkaline components. The resulting solution may contain other salts and trace elements present in the ash.

This reaction is a simplified representation, and the actual composition of the ash and the concentrations of acetic acid in vinegar can influence the specifics of the reaction. Also, in practical terms, the resulting solution may have a pH closer to neutral compared to the original vinegar due to the neutralization reaction.



You

what is calcium acetate useful for in agriculture

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

Calcium acetate has several potential uses in agriculture, primarily related to its calcium content and its function as a source of organic acids. Here are some agricultural applications of calcium acetate:

Soil Amendment:

Calcium is an essential nutrient for plant growth and development. Calcium acetate can be used as a soil amendment to provide plants with an additional source of calcium. Adequate calcium levels in the soil are crucial for the formation and stability of cell walls in plant tissues.

pH Adjustment:

Calcium acetate, being a salt, can influence the pH of the soil. It acts as a pH buffer, helping to maintain or adjust the soil pH. Proper pH levels are vital for nutrient availability to plants, as different nutrients have different solubilities at different pH levels.

Fertilizer Additive:

Calcium acetate can be used as an additive in fertilizers. It contributes both calcium and organic acids, providing a source of nutrition for plants. The organic acids can enhance nutrient availability in the soil.

Foliar Sprays:

Calcium acetate solutions can be used as foliar sprays to provide calcium directly to plant leaves. This is particularly useful in preventing or correcting calcium deficiency symptoms, such as blossom end rot in tomatoes.

Anti-fungal Properties:

Calcium acetate may have some anti-fungal properties. While it is not a broad-spectrum fungicide, the calcium ions it releases can help in managing certain fungal diseases.

Seed Coating:

Calcium acetate solutions can be used in seed coating to enhance the calcium content of seeds. This can promote better germination and early seedling development.

It's important to note that the effectiveness of calcium acetate in agriculture depends on various factors, including soil type, plant species, and specific nutrient needs. Additionally, the application of any agricultural amendment should be based on soil testing and a thorough understanding of the nutritional requirements of the crops being grown.

As with any agricultural practice, it is advisable for farmers and growers to consult with agricultural extension services or agronomists for specific recommendations tailored to their particular crops and growing conditions.



You

the chemical effect of calcium acetate on a magnesium based clay soil

ChatGPT

ChatGPT

Calcium acetate can have several chemical effects on a magnesium-based clay soil. Here are some of the key interactions that may occur:

Calcium-Magnesium Exchange:

Calcium acetate, when applied to soil, can undergo cation exchange reactions with magnesium. In magnesium-dominated soils, the calcium ions from calcium acetate can replace magnesium ions on the soil exchange sites. This process is part of the base saturation of the soil, influencing the balance of cations (positively charged ions) on the soil exchange complex.

pH Adjustment:

Calcium acetate is a salt that can influence soil pH. The acetate ion can react with water to form acetic acid and hydroxide ions. The hydroxide ions can contribute to soil alkalinity, and the overall effect may be an increase in pH. This pH adjustment can impact nutrient availability, microbial activity, and other soil processes.

\text{CH}_3\text{COO}^- + \text{H}_2\text{O} \rightleftharpoons \text{CH}_3\text{COOH} + \text{OH}^-CH3​COO−+H2​O⇌CH3​COOH+OH−

Improvement of Soil Structure:

The addition of calcium, particularly in the form of calcium acetate, can help improve soil structure in clay soils. Calcium promotes flocculation, a process where individual soil particles aggregate into larger, more stable structures. This can improve water drainage and aeration in the soil.

Nutrient Availability:

Calcium is an essential nutrient for plants, and its availability can influence plant growth. By providing a source of soluble calcium, calcium acetate can contribute to meeting the calcium requirements of plants. Additionally, the alteration of soil pH and cation exchange reactions can influence the availability of other nutrients in the soil.

Impact on Clay Dispersion:

The calcium from calcium acetate can counteract the dispersion of clay particles in soil. Dispersion can lead to the clogging of soil pores, reducing water infiltration. The addition of calcium helps in flocculating clay particles, improving soil structure and water movement.

It's important to note that the effectiveness of calcium acetate in mitigating the effects of magnesium in clay soil depends on various factors, including the specific characteristics of the soil, the dosage of calcium acetate applied, and local environmental conditions. Soil testing and consultation with agricultural experts can provide more accurate recommendations for the application of calcium acetate based on the specific needs of the soil and crops being cultivated.
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I live in Virginia with clay like concrete after it rains. It's hard to even get grass to grow in my yard in a lot of spots and the wife hates weeds because her father spent 3-5,000 a year to have the nicest carpet of green grass with no weeds. I refuse to spend that much and for the last 18 years I've been setting up a compost area that is a 10' cube. I leave it for 1-4 years depending on how bad the are is I'm trying to fix. If it's one of the low spots that my lawn tractor hates or just a bare spot. I have lots of trees for leaves, yard clippings, a horse stable up the street, and if I don't mind the weeds that come with the free mulch there is a drop off place about 2.5 miles away where I can get free mulch. (I found out the hard way after using that mulch that it wasn't a good idea. Now I have over a dozen invasive weeds that I fight every year since I used that mulch. Didn't have these problems until then.) Back to the original question though my wife wanted a garden from the moment we moved into this house. She didn't want to do any of the work, just have the garden and get what we grew. I told her it would cost us more than buying the food but wife's get what they want. So I bought a rototiller, plants, and after it rained and the ground got rock hard in the sun everything died. My wife said I thought you said you grew up gardening. I said yes but out soil was a lovely black soil that you could put anything in mostly ignore it and still get a great crop. This isn't that soil it's rock hard clay and I d need to word the soil to do anything with it. Well I want a garden so do what you need to do. I rototilled over a dozen truck loads and trailer loads of free mulch into the ground, I rototilled over a dozen truck loads and trailer loads of horse manure into the ground, I ask all my neighbors for 4 years for their leaves and grass clippings so I could rototill that in. The ground holds water better than most of my yard but I wouldn't plant anything in it. Now I do like I suggested at the beginning to my wife. I plant in containers and just dump them out in my compost when I'm done. Yea I could reuse the dirt but the water is definitely washing away my soil. All the neighbors complaine about it and I see were the ground has eroded on both sides of my house over an inch in 18 years.so adding new better soil and hoping the crabgrass will hold it together is probably the best I can do now.
 
John Suavecito
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I don't think that rototilling will help the structure of the soil, nor will it increase the microbial life in the soil. I think adding organic material makes a lot of sense.  

Starting with some plants that will hold the soil in place will prevent erosion. I don't know where you live but taprooted plants are generally good for that.  Madronas are one type of native tree I would grow here in the PNW for that.  

We had terrible clay but over the years, we have evolved it into good soil.  Mostly we added wood chips and leaves.  We've had plants growing here the whole time. Mostly trees and bushes.  

It sounds like you are having some success growing plants in your containers.

John S
PDX OR
 
Tristan Vitali
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Acid Razzor wrote:I live in Virginia with clay like concrete ...so adding new better soil and hoping the crabgrass will hold it together is probably the best I can do now.



This sounds an awful lot like throwing money at a problem and expecting it to go away. I know from personal experience that the only real workable solution is elbow grease, brow sweat, mixes of annuals and perennials, and constant maintenance, leading to (very) slow and steady progress.

#1 - clay like concrete means it's baking out in the sun. Cover it at all times, even if you've mixed in organic matter, clay does this
#2 - clay like concrete also means it's going to hold water (and nutrient!) like a champ, but ONLY if you keep it cool and shaded
#3 - tillage makes clay very sad - best to build on top (season after season, multiple times a year if you can) by adding organic matter and letting "natural tillage" (worms, bacteria, firefly larva, etc) do the work for you
#4 - tillage destroys mycorrhiza which is imperative to have intact in heavy clay for two important reasons:
 a) roots have a hard time in heavy clay and mycorrhizal networks help extend plants' root systems dramatically
 b) fungal strands like mycorrhiza will exude compounds that help create a more crumbly soil structure (yes, even in nearly pure, heavy clay)
#5 - "mulch" vs "compost" is a major confusion for the average person and too many would be backyard gardeners buy in "mulch" (mulch hay, bark mulch, wood chips, etc) and till it into their soil, often resulting in nitrogen lock-up as the organic matter (carbon) is being composted... mulch, with very few exceptions, ALWAYS goes ON TOP of the soil, not under it

Research and understanding, combined with patience and diligence, always go a lot farther than throwing money at a problem. Quick fixes usually fail, fast fixes cost a small fortune and cheap fixes take a longer time to work.

Oh - we all need to try to remember, no matter how difficult it is at times, that weeds are both an indicator of
 a) soil nutrient densities and structure
 and b) nature's band-aid for disturbed / improperly occupied soil
Read the weeds and either help them do their job or try to do it for them. Running just off this list from the old farmer's almanac, https://www.almanac.com/what-weeds-tell-you-about-your-soil
Too many dandelions, lambsquarters / magenta spreen and yellow dock this year in my annual garden beds is showing we still lack calcium availability, are up to decent levels of nitrogen now, and that last year's excessive rains definitely compacted the soils a bit much. Finding more deposits of moss, too, helping reinforce that compaction indicator. Presence of both wood sorrel and pearly everlasting shows the pH is still a bit too low, but they're slowly fading over the years.

All this means I obviously need to do some liming, but I'll need to ensure I'm using either hi-cal lime or gypsum due to they heavy clay I'm working with and the issues with magnesium binding (Mg binds up clay, trapping P, K, etc so it's unavailable to plants). Both of these are "specialty" and therefore a bit more pricey, especially gypsum. Trying to budget a run to Fedco to pick up some hi-cal lime (a "fast fix"), but with money tight, it's going to be a while and I wont be bringing much home. The "cheap fix" is that I've been side-dressing a lot of my plantings this year with comfrey leaves and will need to collect up piles of maple leaves this fall for the winter mulch (both comfrey and maples are calcium accumulators)

....well, now I feel like I need to go post in the "you know you're a permie when" thread. It's like our daily confessional around here
 
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John Suavecito wrote:Getting back on the topic of improving clay soil after using quite a bit of gravel in the plantings, it greatly improves drainage.  You can hardly notice that it is there when you move the plant later.  

John S
PDX OR



I just had to laugh when I read this, because one of my gardens is where there used to be a gravel driveway (compliments of the previous owner).   My entire back yard was covered by the previous owner with gravel, then river rock.  Oh, I have PLENTY of gravel!

You're right that with just a 'little bit' of gravel, you don't notice it very much.  But some of our clay seems to be exceptionally sticky.   So it ends up sticking very tightly to individual pieces of gravel, ending up forming a larger 'rock'.   I can't tell  you how many times I've grabbed a 'rock', and upon manipulating it, it eventually broke down and there was a single piece of gravel in the interior.

I had been wondering about whether that gravel does actually help drainage, though.   I did notice that when I diligently removed all of the gravel, it seemed in some areas that I had worse drainage.   But it doesn't seem to be an overall rule.   In my garden, the jury is still out.
 
Loretta Liefveld
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I have a 'foundation' bed (you know, those beds that are right next to the foundation of a house) that I have been working on. When we moved in 8 years ago, it had that horrible white decorative rock (you know, the stuff that only looks good for a brief time after you install it, before leaves and dirt land on top).   Under the rock, there was very high quality, heavy-duty landscape fabric.   It was planted with some variety of yucca, one rhododendron, and a Japanese maple.

I have now successfully removed the white rock and landscape fabric.  The soil underneath was extremely compacted and dead.   No signs of life at all.

I was surprised to find that as I started to dig it up, it didn't seem to be 'hard as concrete' or sticky, like other parts of my clay gardens.   I have a large overhanging eave, so I'm thinking it didn't get rained on, which is why it wasn't that hard.

The soil is very, very fine.  It seems almost like the consistency of all-purpose flour.

I used my broadfork with 12" tines to break it up and get down to the gigantic yucca roots (12-14" beneath the surface).  Then I added 4 inches of compost.  Broadforked it in, then used a shovel to turn it over again.  Finally used my trowel to further mix the compost in and find remaining pieces of yucca roots.

I realize that much tilling isn't really that good for the soil, but this soil had no life anyway.

But it seems that the texture of the soil is still quite fine.  I purchased the bulk compost and it's pretty clear it has been sifted - very few large pieces in it.   I can still grab a handful of soil, squeeze it, and it stays together, but easily comes apart.   As I was working the soil, I noticed that when I went back to an area I had already worked, some of it had already kind of compacted again.

I'm thinking maybe I should have put more compost on it to begin with??

I did put gypsum on top and raked it in, at the specified rate.   I'm also going to put another 2 inches of compost on top, without digging it in.

It's partial shade, since it's on the north side of the house.   I've planted more rhododendron, a couple of crocosmia, and bugleweed ground cover.

Thoughts?  Advice?  I still have another 30 square feet to work, so if there's more I should be doing, I'd love to hear about it.


 
Loretta Liefveld
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Tristan Vitali wrote:

Acid Razzor wrote:
Read the weeds and either help them do their job or try to do it for them. Running just off this list from the old farmer's almanac, https://www.almanac.com/what-weeds-tell-you-about-your-soil:



FYI:  The link doesn't work....   I'm pretty sure it's the colon as part of the link.   I did a search and came up with the correct link, without the colon.  

https://www.almanac.com/what-weeds-tell-you-about-your-soil

 
John Suavecito
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[quote=Loretta Liefveld

I just had to laugh when I read this, because one of my gardens is where there used to be a gravel driveway (compliments of the previous owner).   My entire back yard was covered by the previous owner with gravel, then river rock.  Oh, I have PLENTY of gravel!


You're right that with just a 'little bit' of gravel, you don't notice it very much. But some of our clay seems to be exceptionally sticky.   So it ends up sticking very tightly to individual pieces of gravel, ending up forming a larger 'rock'.   I can't tell  you how many times I've grabbed a 'rock', and upon manipulating it, it eventually broke down and there was a single piece of gravel in the interior.

I had been wondering about whether that gravel does actually help drainage, though.   I did notice that when I diligently removed all of the gravel, it seemed in some areas that I had worse drainage.   But it doesn't seem to be an overall rule.   In my garden, the jury is still out.

I also think that compressing the soil by driving over an area is not an optimal way  to start a garden area!  Yes, we inherited large patches of soil with six inches deep of gravel on top of black plastic, covering the clay.  Not a good situation. The clay was great for ceramics, but terrible for gardening.

It was a lot of work, but I had to remove all of the black plastic.  Then I had to mix in organic material and spread the gravel across to other parts of the yard that didn't have the gravel. Then it was moderately mixed in with the organic material to open up the clay and let oxygen and life in.  We kept many of the plants, but gradually moved over to more food, diversity, and native plants.  It has worked spectacularly!

John S
PDX OR
 
Loretta Liefveld
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John Suavecito wrote:

I also think that compressing the soil by driving over an area is not an optimal way  to start a garden area!  Yes, we inherited large patches of soil with six inches deep of gravel on top of black plastic, covering the clay.  Not a good situation. The clay was great for ceramics, but terrible for gardening.

It was a lot of work, but I had to remove all of the black plastic.  Then I had to mix in organic material and spread the gravel across to other parts of the yard that didn't have the gravel. Then it was moderately mixed in with the organic material to open up the clay and let oxygen and life in.  We kept many of the plants, but gradually moved over to more food, diversity, and native plants.  It has worked spectacularly!

John S
PDX OR



ROFL!   Yep - I didn't mention the black plastic that was under the gravel and river rock in the back yard!  What WERE they thinking!   Still haven't removed all of that.  I think maybe I've been able to remove about 1/3 of the gravel, river rock and black plastic so far.    Gee, I wonder if the previous owners of my place owned your place as well!   Can't imagine the amount of work you have gone through - especially, actually MOVING the gravel and spreading it out somewhere else.

And yeah, not only was that one area a driveway, but he also some parked heavy equipment on my little 'driveway garden'.   I have about 1/2 of that one fixed up so far.  Little by little.   Hugelbed in one area, buried kitchen waste in another (lasagna style), 6 inches of compost, etc.,

I'm also working toward food, diversity, and native plants.

Question:  How long did it take you to do all of this???
 
John Suavecito
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I live on a suburban plot, so we're not talking about acreage.  I had been adding wood chips to it for years before I realized that the depth of gravel and black plastic was even there.  Removal of the plastic happened over about a month or two, on half of my back yard.   Spreading out the gravel happened over years.  Luckily, I had some partially rotted organic material that mixed in with it.  I had to use a pick axe to get down to the bottom of it. Then I would plant something.  As I kept putting more organic material over it, the gravel kind of mixed with the clay and organic material each time I planted something. I also have put rotten wood in the holes of every tree or bush I planted for years. Kind of a mini-hugel.  That helped too.  Then over the years I had finished planting something almost everywhere and the soil kind of healed on its own.

JohN S
PDX OR
 
Loretta Liefveld
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John Suavecito wrote:I live on a suburban plot, so we're not talking about acreage.  I had been adding wood chips to it for years before I realized that the depth of gravel and black plastic was even there.  Removal of the plastic happened over about a month or two, on half of my back yard.   Spreading out the gravel happened over years.  Luckily, I had some partially rotted organic material that mixed in with it.  I had to use a pick axe to get down to the bottom of it. Then I would plant something.  As I kept putting more organic material over it, the gravel kind of mixed with the clay and organic material each time I planted something. I also have put rotten wood in the holes of every tree or bush I planted for years. Kind of a mini-hugel.  That helped too.  Then over the years I had finished planting something almost everywhere and the soil kind of healed on its own.

JohN S
PDX OR


I've only been at it for 6-8 years, and for the most part, I've been doing it sort of like you describe - dig an area, put compost in, plant something.   Go on to the next one.  I'm no spring chicken any more, and I just can't work as long or as hard as I used to.  Each year, I do another small area.   Right now, I'm almost done with a 5'x16' bed next to my house foundation.   It takes me about 4 hours to do a 4' section, then I'm just done for the day.  

I will be glad when I'm finally done going all around the garden areas.   You have given me hope that it's not futile.
 
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