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I just came across this, and I'm a bit surprised. I've watched a lot of Nick & Esther, and I've read a lot of Permies.com; and, frankly, I'm very, very fond of both. It's like when my kids fight. I'm far less interested in who's right or wrong, than I am in getting the relationships put back in order. It leaves me a little hollow, in that I wish I hadn't seen this. But, things read can't be unseen, can they?

Paul, I like what you do. If I had anything close to a criticism of your "style," it's that I'd describe you as 'rough around the edges.' As an example, I eagerly awaited the RMH DVD set (from the kickstarter) and was anxious to watch them...then found I'd rather not have my children present for it, because of the "golf words" (my personally favorite euphemism). Thank of that as my "adjective" rather than "criticism" of you.  I've read enough commentary to know that others don't mind or might even enjoy that. Just something that's not on my "okay" list. I don't want you to feel like you need to change. But, I'd love to share this stuff with my kids. So, I either have to carefully moderate, or not share. It's been easier to not share.

I did watch the Fouch video. Again, wish I hadn't. Something clearly went awry - in their view - as I've not seen anything quite so negative from them. Not sure what to make of that. I don't feel a need to "investigate," but I am curious. And, if I ever get the chance to join one of your events, I'd do so in a flash! So, I'm not deterred. And, further, I wish that video hadn't been made.

Though it's not a crisis of biblical proportions, I would love to see three things happening. (I'm carefully avoiding "insisting" you do something! Just putting forward what I think would be grand and glorious.....)

1. You, Nick & Esther have a heart to heart, that clears the air, and restores your connection to a good one.
2. That video of theirs disappears
3. This particular thread disappears

I would say that I don't want the 2nd or 3rd to occur before the first. That would be the illusion of "shalom" without the reality of it. Me no like.

I love Nick & Esther in the same way I love you, Paul. Don't worry...I'm not suggesting we go shopping for place settings. Think familial!

Don't change for the wrong reasons. You've got a good thing you're doing, and I don't want you to stop. If you can improve, go for it! If it's good-already, or good-enough, then leave it.

Now, I'm going to drink heavily. I tell my kids their fighting is why I drink. (just kidding...just trying a little guilt trip!)

Please take with a dietitian-supported amount of salt.

Keep up the good work!

~Dan

 
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From my position, my behavior was princely and their behavior was monstrous.   When they left my position was "I won't do business with them again."

Apparently when the fouches put their video up, they contacted all of the guest instructors to make sure they knew about the video.   Helen Atthowe forwarded me her response to the fouches:

I must respectfully disagree with you on this criticism of the Wheaton Lab PDC. I was one of the instructors at the 2017 PDC, where I greatly enjoyed the depth and intensity of discussions with all the students, instructors, and staff, including with both you and Nick. I have spent nearly 20 years arguing with Paul, since I met him at my Master Gardener course where he was a student. We disagree more often than we agree! Yet, I always feel respected and safe and am often inspired to delve deeper in my farm/garden practice and into the academic ecological, horticulture, and soil science, literature to back up my disagreements with Paul. The  interactive discussion I had as an instructor at this 2017 Wheaton Labs PDC has excited and inspired me to a much clearer understanding of permaculture theories and the farming systems I have been experimenting with  and "evolving" for 30 years.  I think respectful disagreement is like the sharp edge between forest and meadow in a natural ecosystem; it is the place  where all the transition activity is happening. I very much appreciate Paul and Jocelyn for providing this kind of  inspiring forum.  It allows me to participate in a much larger discussion, even when my natural inclination is to stay on my farm getting my hands dirty.



The best news:  At the Rocket Mass Heater Workshop Jamboree in October, it seems that all of the students knew about the fouch video before buying their ticket.   One of them said that they had never heard of me until they saw the fouch video and after seeing it thought "Well, that's utter horseshit.  Whoever this wheaton guy is, he must be awesome."  He looked me up, found out about the jamboree and bought a ticket.    All of the students at the jamboree were amazing.  

I've received quite a few emails from people that said they found out about my stuff from the fouches and, from that, decided I'm awesome.  

It is difficult to build community.   It is easy to try and destroy community.  

This kind of awful is just the sort of thing that makes permaculture a bit like swimming upriver.  Sometimes you are contrary to your neighbors who spray pesticides.  Sometimes you are held back by laws that exist due to lobbying from pesticide companies.    Sometimes you are pulled back by people with "permaculture" on their lips.  As always, you keep moving forward and make the best of it.

When you say that you still appreciate the fouches after all of this, I think we all learned quite a bit about you.
 
paul wheaton
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As long as this is brought up again ....

I remember a couple decades back living in a neighborhood that was kinda suburban ...   on summer evenings we would keep the windows open to let some cooler air in.   At least until the screaming started.  

There was this couple .... the back of their house faced the back of our house.  They would fight every night.   Screaming fights.   And somebody must have been throwing plates or something because you could hear them being smashed.  

We met the couple a few times.  Sweet as pie.  She was particularly beautiful.  By looking at her and hearing her quiet, sweet voice, it seemed impossible that she was the same person we could hear screaming such awful stuff at her husband.  And her husband seemed nice too.  Again, a mismatch - he couldn't possibly be the same guy that we would hear screaming.   And how many dishes could they possibly have?  When we visited with the other neighbors, that seemed to be the chuckle:  they must go buy more dishes a lot.  Maybe they just like buying dishes so much, they need an excuse to break the previous purchase.

So lovely during the day.  So monstrous in the evening.  Who would have thought.

We closed our windows and made the best of it.  Eventually, we moved.

 
pollinator
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Paul, I just want to reiterate one point.

Thank you for all you do. Don't change anything that's not for yourself.

I haven't met the Fouches. I don't want to meet the Fouches. It hurt to play the video of them simply because it gave them another view.

I think they are too comfortable with their own sense of entitlement. Last I checked, wasn't there a word for someone you invite onto your property by your own volition? Isn't that word "guest?"

Don't guests have a duty of respect to their hosts? That video demonstrates a serious lack of respect for their hosts, and that in itself says more about them than anything else.

It's a relatively unimpressive thing to have permaculture on your lips if it's not stuck under your fingernails and ground into your skin.

I think they also did you a service, albeit in a backhand manner, in that anyone who watched their stuff found out about you and Permies.com. Finding out how much more useful this site is than any one series of videos, let alone their self-indulgent self-congratulation, I doubt anyone would willingly limit themselves to the Fouches when they could use one of the biggest permaculture resources in the world.

Thanks again.

-CK
 
paul wheaton
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Thanks to Dilbert, I learn that this sort of thing is not that uncommon

http://dilbert.com/strip/2017-09-25




http://dilbert.com/strip/2017-09-26




http://dilbert.com/strip/2017-09-27





 
paul wheaton
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I buzzed through the thread again and spotted this:

joe pacelli wrote:I share space in the world of psychology.  Shame and unexpressed resentments can lead to many fucked up demands, misbehaviors, AVOIDANCE OF RESPONSIBILITY, and dramatic displays.  Unless someone is hacking one's head off with an axe, big blow ups are unproductive.  These anger explosions give more insight into the mentality of the person throwing the temper tantrum, rather than their target.  



These words, from a professional, who watched the events unfold, spells it out for me the best.  Now many months later, I think these words are the clearest explanation.

The fouches behaved poorly.  Very poorly.  Monstrous.   Extremely different from what we see in the videos.   And their video says a thousand times more about them than it does about me.      

I am very fortunate that professional psychologists watched the video of the pdc, watched the fouch video, listened to all my podcasts and verify as 100% fact:  I am fucking awesome and fouches ....   fall short.  

----

At the same time, my message is the same:  I will not be a puppet to a nitwit and this will make any nitwit angry.





Today I am continuing to work my ass off to help Josiah and the ponder family with their kickstarter.  Lovely people that attended the same pdc.  Helping good people rather than being angry at bad guys.  Have the fouches helped the kickstarters of others?  Have they hosted workshops or PDCs?  Have they tried to build community?  Do they host public forums?  

While the phrase "no good deed goes unpunished" is not entirely true, there is a lot of truth to it.  

If anybody wishes to vote with their dollar, please put a dollar into my patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/paulwheaton
 
pollinator
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From the field of anthropology, the work of Mary Douglas is interesting.  She breaks societies into four different types, based upon a four-quadrant "grid".  Picture a big + sign, with X and Y lines that intersect.  The higher you go up the vertical X line, the more hierarchical the society is.  She calls this "grid".  So a high grid culture or society would have layers and layers or leadership.  A low grid society would be largely egalitarian with a community ethos where everyone goes by their first name and everyone has access to speak directly to the leadership.

Think of a company like Microsoft or Amazon as high grid.  You've got layers and layers and layers of management, layers of decision makers, and highly specified roles and responsibilities.  The organizational chart is tremendously detailed.  Job descriptions, HR best practices, strict accounting to track every last dollar . . . these are the things of high grid.

Low grid are societies like a Native American tribe or a community of permaculture folks.  The roles are not clearly specified, everyone is pretty much egalitarian in their decision making with, perhaps, a plurality of "older brothers and sisters" who have a greater say.  But if you try to create a hierarchy of organizational structure or a handbook or allowable or non-allowable behaviors, people in low grid societies will rebel.  "Go to hell!  Who died and made you the boss?"

Think of the Standing Rock protests of last year or Occupy Wall Street several years ago.  There was no recognized leadership structure.  There was no unified voice that spoke for the organization.  Everyone did what they wanted to do, and came together is a loosely affiliated group for a short amount of time.  But holding a low group culture to act a certain way is impossible.  In a high grid society (like Korea or Japan), people will play their role and silently submit to the leadership.

So in this case, you've got a low-grid permaculture "society" that refuses to acknowledge Paul's leadership, nor abide by the rules given.  In the same way, my sense it that Paul wouldn't really enjoy high-grid role specification and structure.  I just can't imagine you in a social situation that would prescribe the clothes that were "proper" to be worn, the kind of speech that would allowable, and the structure that would keep you tightly constrained in the org chart and office structure.  I would imagine you moved to Montana and started Wheaton Labs to get away from all of that.  You are a low grid guy, and you surround yourself with other low grid people --- like the Fouches.  

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

The horizontal line is the "group" line.  To the right, high group.  To the left, low group.  Group is the measure to which you feel a strong sense of insider/outsider belonging.   So to the left is highly individualistic.  I live in Southern California.  It's low group.  I do what I want and don't feel any obligation to adhere to any groups expectation of me.  But imagine that I live in an Amish community somewhere.  In that society, there is a high insider/outsider barrier.  While they are low grid (very egalitarian), they are high group (with a deep commitment to uphold the standards of the community).  So. Cal society that I live in is low grid, low group.  The school that I teach in is high grid (clearly specified roles and responsibilities) but low group (we don't have any commitment to one another other than the 8 hours or so that we spend together during the work day.

Example of High Grid/Low Group (upper left quadrant):  the federal government or a modern corporate office.
Example of High Grid/High Group (upper right quadrant):  a football team where there is a tremendous dedication to one another, but the specificity of roles and structure.  Or perhaps a special forces type military group like the Green Berets: they have highly specified roles and clear structures of expected performance, but also a deep commitment to one another.  Or another example might be a Korean church, where the specificity or roles and deep commitment to the group allows for tremendous productivity and highly specific goals and expectations.

Example of Low Grid/High Group (lower right quadrant): the Amish.  Certain Native American societies.  Egalitarian social structure but high commitment to the group and willingness to submit to the structures and expectations therein.
Example of Low Grid/Low Group (lower left quadrant):  The permaculture "movement".  Everyone does what is right in their own eyes.  People come and go, and the structures (if there are any) are largely voluntary.  There is no Permaculture USA that governs who can or can't use this description.  There is no membership with clear distinctions of who is in and who is out, no secret handshake, no ceremony to swear someone in or out, no dues or applications or annual meetings, no org chart, and no expectations of what you are supposed to do as my permaculture brother or sister.


SO . . .

With that long-winded summation of Mary Douglas's theory:

The Permaculture "community" isn't really a community at all in the way we would think of a high group society.  No one governs the Fouches.  They are ungovernable.  They follow no rules or structures, and are quick to post a video like this to trash someone else.  That's low grid/low group.  Perhaps you would fall into this category yourself, Paul.  The distinction between you and them is their ass-a-holism and the low-class behavior of posting a video like this.  

If we expect high group behavior in a low group culture (the expectation of basic human politeness and social propriety) we are going to be disappointed.  Low group/low grid people and societies are largely ungovernable.  You have no leverage to keep them from doing whatever they want to do.  If you pulled this shit in the military (high grid), they'd bust you down a rank or might drum you right out with a dishonorable discharge.  If you did something like this at Google or Apple, you'd be fired.  And if you were in a high-group context, it would be such a breach of protocol that you'd be kicked out of the group and shamed/shunned.  

This is why low grid/low group "organizations" rarely get bigger than 200 people.  They are ungovernable.  That doesn't matter if it's a highly egalitarian church (like the Plymouth Brothern) or a community protest like Occupy Wall Street.  They can't hold the structure for longer than just a short period of time, and during that time, people flow in and out without any longstanding commitment.

Don't get frustrated at the lack of commitment to the group, Paul.  Unless you put up some serious structures to keep insiders in and outsiders out, this is the kind of crap you'll have to put up with.  If you take Wheaton Labs "up group", people will label you a cult.  If you take Wheaton Labs "up grid", they'd say you sold out to the man and have gone corporate.  Environmental groups are always this way: low group, low grid, and filled with people who are impossible to work with.  

Don't waste your energy on them.
 
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I would just like to shine a light on this little nugget of gold from this thread:

" I think respectful disagreement is like the sharp edge between forest and meadow in a natural ecosystem; it is the place  where all the transition activity is happening. "

Love it.
 
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I did not read though this whole thread but its obvious that this couple did not know much about Paul before they arrived. Theres a reason Paul expects his more permanent people to listen to his podcast and get to know him before they get there. He is rough around the edges but does not try to hide that. Hes a self proclaimed "ass-hole" and to expect any less is setting yourself up to get your feelings hurt. He has set up the lab to give people the opportunity to practice permaculture, different artist and different expression. That being said its not designed for people to be baby sat, but to use there resources to kick ass and make their own piece of paradise.
I was still in college when I went out to base camp and the lab and paul told me I was going to school to be Monsantos Bitch. I disagreed, but I didnt go bash the guy on the intewebs. Hes awesome and I still love the Guy for all that he has done for permaculture. My experiences in the nowheres of Montana were amazing, Paul is always upfront and in that way he will never let you down. I cant wait till we can make that long ass road trip from Georgia for another trip to Pauls amazing permiculture site.
 
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I stumbled across the Fouche’s video several months back—and for almost 12 hours, I felt the sort of hollow disappointment we feel when a public leader gets caught up in a scandal.

While I’ve never met him, and live in a different country, I’ve been enriched by the generosity of Paul’s online content for the better part of 10 years now; and yet through a SINGLE VIDEO—posted by a couple I don’t know AT ALL, and which contained almost NO SPECIFIC INFORMATION—I found myself being bent towards the conclusion that Paul was engineering the next Waco or Heaven’s Gate cult(!).

THANKFULLY, I didn’t just allow the dark fears and suspicions ignited by the Fouche’s video to win the day.  I dug a little deeper, read Paul’s response (in this thread), sifted through many comments and responses on BOTH sites, and even reached out to Paul directly in order to find some answers that would settle whether I would steer clear of Permies or the Fouches in the future.

None of this makes me a first-hand witness, however I would ask anyone who is reading this post to consider the following:

1) The Fouche’s video was NOT an impulsive, off-the-cuff response to a disappointing experience at Wheaton Labs; it was a calculated attempt to destroy Paul’s credibility and his livelihood. If you watch it AFTER reading Paul’s description of his exchanges with Nick and Esther during the event in question, it plays VERY differently.  

2) It was DESIGNED to lead viewers to the conclusion that Paul was running some sort of cult—but without saying the words directly—(perhaps to avoid accusations of libel?) …and yet this is a bizarrely implausible suggestion: Cult leaders CONTROL INFORMATION—they don’t go to extraordinary lengths to facilitate dialogue, explore divergent opinions, and establish incredible online forums dedicated to the free exchanges of ideas!

3) The Fouche’s video relies almost entirely on innuendo and an appeal to trust the Fouche's judgement in their indictment of Paul. Again, by failing to provide any specific claims, evidence, or other corroboration (besides “there is a locked gate”), and by saying “of course this is only our opinion”—the Fouches appear to be conscious of libel laws, and are trying to do as much damage as possible without actually saying something that could be called out as a blatant lie.  

4) The Fouches, who are building a YouTube channel in order to finance their own family’s private homesteading venture, benefit financially from the controversy they have generated, directed at the most popular Permaculture website on the planet.  I do not have insight into their motives, but NO ONE should be able to publicly assassinate another person's character without evidence.  It is unfathomable to me that the Nick and Esther spent a week (or more?) at Wheaton Labs posting videos for their YouTube followers, and yet when they decided to slander Paul and suggest he is up to no good, they have no substantial evidence(video OR otherwise), but lean on "trust us!". It doesn't make sense; Paul's explanation DOES.

Please READ the comments on both websites regarding this issue and make an informed judgement about who you think has better EARNED your trust.  My own conclusion is that the Fouches have a loyal online following of largely sincere Christian folks who believe they share values in common, but who do not actually KNOW Nick and Esther personally.  Nick and Esther have asserted that they are building their homestead completely alone, WITHOUT physical community.  It is much easier to control your public image if that image is generated exclusively by videos you shoot and edit yourself.

In contrast, Paul Wheaton is a VERY PUBLIC FIGURE, hosting workshops, posting online seminars, and traveling extensively to spread information concerning Permaculture and its capacity to make positive changes to the planet and in its human communities.  He is a brash, sarcastic, unapologetic bull-in-a-china-shop—and yet people STILL choose to be around him!  My suspicion that he is a big teddy-bear who gets hurt deeply by this sort of ‘public hanging’ has been confirmed in the handful of email exchanges I have had with him since reaching out to set my own mind at ease about what the Fouche’s video was really all about.

I hesitate to involve myself in this sort of online discussion, which so often degenerates into name-calling and character assassination, but my conscience compels me in this case.

Thank-you to Paul for his restraint in NOT resorting to mud-slinging and “lowest-common-denominator” human behavior in response to this attack on his character. I have never in all of my years seen you “shut down” reasonable discourse or assassinate someone else’s character for ANY reason—never mind in the absence of substantive evidence.

It is SO much easier to destroy something than to build it—I suspect we all remember what it feels like to have our sandcastle stomped on by another child when we were younger.  We appear to live in an age where  people actually acquire followers and gain money by stomping on sand castles.  

I hope that some of the Fouches' followers, many of whom seem to be sympathetic to a religious/Christian world-view (judging by the comments on their site), decide to hold Nick and Esther to a higher standard and call them out for the malicious slander they have flung at Paul in this video.  I believe their scriptures say something about "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"...

My highest respect to you, Paul.
 
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Tim Engbrecht wrote:..... when they decided to slander Paul and suggest he is up to no good, they have no substantial evidence(video OR otherwise), but lean on "trust us!". It doesn't make sense; Paul's explanation DOES.

Please READ the comments on both websites regarding this issue and make an informed judgement about who you think has better EARNED your trust.



There is a good commentary on this general notion to be found here:   http://pairadocks.blogspot.com/2018/07/in-cult-word-is-hook.html

For many of us who have not visited Wheaton Labs, we are left weighing what is seen on video and produced in these forums with our own experiences.  In addition, one can weigh apparent attitude and intent along with whatever evidence can be garnered.  Permies.com is still the best cross-roads and information source (MHO, of course) for this type of information....AND appears to have the best intentions in what it offers.
 
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The Fouches' video spoke of an "elephant in the room"--but I believe there is an even BIGGER elephant which is hard to talk about without folks getting either aggressive OR defensive and emotional.

Baldly put: Certain brands of fundamentalism and their accompanying world-views are extraordinarily dangerous to the goals of a science-based, rational, Earth-restorative movement (which is how I perceive Mollison’s vision of Permaculture).

I couldn’t help but notice in scab-picking my way through the Fouch-video’s comments, that a VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE of the commenters referenced 'scriptures'… and I think it’s pretty safe to conclude that the Fouches count themselves as “some of the chosen”.  

To be clear, I’m NOT interested in a wholesale, firehose “religion-bashing” session, here… My roots are in the same fold, if the truth be known, though I have a much different perspective now than I did as an ‘earnest youth’.

But here’s the Elephant, as I see it:
There is a LARGE contingent of earnest, religious believers of various persuasions—mostly those who would self-identify as “fundamentalist”—whose world-view asserts that this mortal life we shuffle through is merely a staging ground for some ‘ultimate, post-death/rapture reality’.

This, I believe, is a huge problem.

While religions and ‘faith’/spirituality are not (in themselves) the problem, the believe that this life (and this PLANET) must be purged away before “real reality” kicks in—creates a situation where adherents to this belief lack the incentive to build PERMANENT CULTURES & COMMUNITIES in THIS life. Some even believe in HASTENING the planet's destruction in the service of fulfilling a 'Messianic prophecy'.

How does this relate to the Fouch-scapade?.. I have a theory, based on nothing but my overactive imagination, that there was something MORE than Paul reminding Ms Fouch of her mother; more than them hearing about a poop-munching-mouse; or fearing locked gates; or desiring to build a YouTube empire; or being offended by the suggestion that Wheaton Labs could use kitchen help; or their own over-compensation for showing up late and dropping the ball on their end of an agreement. (though all of these make perfect sense, too)

…my THEORY is that Paul offended their world-view, and they lashed out because they believe they are fundamentally better (or 'holier') than he is.

As I've said--I don’t know Paul, but I’ve put in my time watching his videos over the last 10 years-or-so, and suspect that we’d get along just fine.

At the same time, I don't think anyone would assert that Paul is a good candidate for cross-cultural diplomacy: It would SHOCK me if he didn’t, over the course of a week together with a family of extremely conservative Christian folks, say or imply SOMETHING that lumped him in with the devil himself in their minds. (side-note: In the Fouche's video-review of their rocket-stove, their son noted that a big “minus” of it was that it was “dirty”… what were the odds that these folks were EVER going to get along with the crew at Wheaton Labs??)

In MY community, there are a lot of fundamentalist religious sects… and while these are some really NICE, GENEROUS people—at the end of the day, many of them believe that WE ARE NOT ON THE SAME TEAM.  I am destined for hell, and they are destined to inherit my house once the Earth gets re-built to their saviour’s specifications.

Again, not all ‘believers’ are of this persuasion…  I, myself, really dig on Joseph Campbell’s interpretations, and value sacred texts and traditions for their narratives, lessons, and historical perspectives.  –but if folks sincerely believe that this world is ‘fallen’ and must be cleansed by their god… then it seems pretty unlikely to me that they will PARTNER with our efforts to rehabilitate the biosphere that humans have damaged.  That doesn’t mean I don’t want to associate with these people—it just changes the conversational focus and the level of ‘trust of intentions’ I am able to extend.

At some point, our various communities will have to engage in a difficult, “Taboo” discussion about cosmologies/world-views…because it seems to me that as long as folks believe that ‘heaven’ is somewhere ELSE, they’re unlikely to do anything more than re-arranging deck-chairs on this Titanic-planet.
 
paul wheaton
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I think that the whole fouch thing falls squarely in the space of:



obey or else




The fouches wanted all the perks and wanted less obligations.  So they wanted to change the deal.  And rather than negotiate, the elected to exercise bravado and hostility to get what they wanted.   So they opted for screaming.  Literally.  Huge hostility.  And then when I would not comply, they brought out all of the "or else" they could come up with.  

My crime is not being an obedient servant to the twisted whims of the fouches.  

What I learned is that the sweet persona they portray on their channel is a facade.

They got two tickets to the event, which i clearly provided.   The stole their children into several parts that was not part of the deal.   And they did not honor their part of the deal.   This whole thing seems crystal clear to me.

Their video about me is a clear presentation of their values:  they are mean, petty people.  I am amazed that youtube publishes that sort of thing.
 
gardener
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Definitely agree with the idea of their worldview not being of paramount concern to everyone else. They are accustomed to pontificating from the platform of their YouTube videos. Before this incident, I only knew them as the people who take half an hour to dish out two minutes of useless information.

I doubt that mr. Fouch would have headed down this road on his own. It seems to me that she is clearly in charge of that marriage and that man. So she's accustomed to having a big doofus to boss around. Paul is big.

I also wonder if there is a queen bee thing going on. She is accustomed to being completely in charge at her house. The idea that Jocelyn would expect her to dirty her hands in the kitchen, may have disturbed her worldview that other people exist to serve her.

There seems to be an odd celebrity culture surrounding people who become mildly YouTube famous. I think they look at the number of views and likes and this has a serious effect on how they view their position in the world. I think that Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and the rest would be doing us all a favor if they didn't count likes. There are morons who like everything and who retweet everything. Sometimes it just because they want others to like and retweet their stuff. So, once people decide that they have become a very big celebrity, sometimes it goes in the direction of, let's bash the others, to improve our own standing in some way. You see this sort of primitive behavior with rap singers. Instead of writing a song that's about something, it becomes about what a jackass some other rap singer is.

Speaking of lyrics, I wrote the lovely limerick, but it was determined that it didn't quite meet publishing standards. :-)
 
pollinator
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Dale Hodgins wrote:.

Speaking of lyrics, I wrote the lovely limerick, but it was determined that it didn't quite meet publishing standards. :-)



What? Mooseage it to me.  please!
 
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