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I've noticed something interesting...

 
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While I'm a bit rough around the edges, and most of the time when my posts vanish into the ether I understand why, more and more of my posts are disappearing without my understanding.  My latest bit of political satire vanished in just minutes.  So fast, I doubt any of my intended audience even saw it.  Someone in the admin army has no sense of humor, or simply can't tell what satire looks like; but I suppose that's a sign of our times.

Well, anyway.

Paul, we love you.  You belong here, and you will always have a (political) home among us, whether you like us or not.

*It's be nice if the forum software automatically notified a member when their posts were deleted, and ideally why or by whom, so that those of us with a sense of humor can figure what the limits of the joke actually are.  Other forums I've been on can do this.
 
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You do know, we have a forum for political discussions, right? And you posted you political satire outside of that, right?

Moderating a forum is hard. Immensely. And, having a giant flame war happen about political modes of thought, just isn't something we have time for. So we have the Cider Press and in it a forum just for such discussions. That way, random internet trolls can't be like, "Oh look! A forum of gardeners! I'm going to have fun messing with THEM today, bwahahahahaha!"

My husband loves to troll the internet. He finds it really funny. But, we have sensitive souls here that would really feel hurt and waste their time interacting with trolls. So, we have the cider press, so random internet trolls can't muck around with permies. It works really well, and it means that cider press topics outside of the cider press get (A) moved there if the person has enough apples, or (B) deleted.
 
Creighton Samuels
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Nicole Alderman wrote:You do know, we have a forum for political discussions, right?



No, I didn't know that.

Also, I can't get access to the Cider Press.  So how does it help that there's a special forum section for that?
 
Creighton Samuels
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Also, my last satire couldn't have offended anyone.  It wasn't like that.

Seriously, it was quite benign.
 
Nicole Alderman
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Ah! You need more apples. Make more amazing and helpful posts and you'll probably soon have enough apples.

I just went and checked, and right now the Politics forum require 12 apples. It's--as one can imagine--one of the most difficult to moderate, so it requires more apples.

Think about permies main forums as a family reunion or Thanksgiving Day dinner table. You don't want Uncle Steve or Aunt Marjorie--let along your cousin's new boyfriend--to get into a big heated discussion and drive a rift in the family. So, talk of religion or politics doesn't happen, but you chat about your house building project or your garden and other things people can unite behind.

The Cider Press is like when you sit down for coffee or around a campfire with your best buddies and you all chat those deep issues and really work through them...all without destroying any friendships.

The political post you made wasn't offensive, it was just troll bait or great embers to start a flame war. Like when maintaining a tree, you rub off buds that are growing in the wrong place before they become giant branches rubbing against each other, we try to prune those discussions before they become nasty debates.

If we delete one post before it becomes a flame war, then we don't have to agonize over whether to delete or probation the   25 replies to it of people saying their political ideology is better than the other persons and how the other person is horrible because of who they voted--or didn't--vote for.

It feels kind of odd saying this, but us moderators really do have other things we'd like to do. I wanted to read and review the Pawpaw book, and make up a bunch of PEX badge images (not to mention pack my kid's lunches and crawl into bed!)...but here I am. And, just imagine, I could also be discussing with the other moderators about what to do about a political post that exploded into a bunch of angry posters and people clicking the report button and people leaving permies with hurt feelings and.... well, yeah. That's why your post got deleted! We've seen so many discussions go horribly that we've gotten a pretty good feeling as to what can happen with certain posts.

You're halfway to being able to enter the cider press. You can do it!
 
Creighton Samuels
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Nicole Alderman wrote:

The political post you made wasn't offensive, it was just troll bait or great embers to start a flame war.



Okay.  Yeah, I can see how that might be true.
 
pollinator
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Creighton Samuels wrote:

Nicole Alderman wrote:You do know, we have a forum for political discussions, right?



No, I didn't know that.

Also, I can't get access to the Cider Press.  So how does it help that there's a special forum section for that?



But what is what?

What you call Satire, I read as Passive-Aggression.

I think with 4000 plus posts I have proven I have a sense of humor, but isn't that the answer passive-aggressive people give when they are called out on their particular behavior? I say this because my own mother has seep-seeded problems with being passive-aggressive, and in reading your post, I do not see satire, but rather it being something she would write. Then when challenged about it...that being confrontation which is what passive-aggressive people want to avoid at all costs, the foo-foo it off as people "do not have a sense of humor."

In life, it is almost impossible to prove a negative, so it ends up being the perfect excuse by passive-aggressive people...which is subterfuge and placing the blame upon those that dare call them out on their lack of bravado.

THIS is the challenge moderators have, and why Paul Wheaton allows them to wield the discretion that they do.

Most of the time in my life, I can avoid people with the philosophy of..."you are not my wife, you are not my mother, so I owe you nothing", but in the case of passive-aggressiveness, that does not hold true. One of the people I am commanded to respect, love, and appease is passive-aggressive and I have had to deal with it for 45 years of my life. THANKFULLY, on this site, Paul Wheaton allows moderators to nip this in the bud.

"Well I was just saying"...may be an excuse, but the "BE NICE" rule nips that in the bud. Too bad... DON'T "just say". (Period. End. Drop the mic)



 
pollinator
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IMHO. Nichole and Travis see clearly. I have had to deal with that person, too. Now the buds get nipped. Kudos to our moderators.

Rufus
 
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Creighton Samuels wrote:  My latest bit of political satire vanished in just minutes.  So fast, I doubt any of my intended audience even saw it.



If it was posted outside the cider press, then it sounds like someone did exactly what Paul asked.

If it was posted in the cider press and you want me to have a look at it for a second opinion, please post a link to the thread.

For more information on why we don't talk politics in the main forums: https://permies.com/t/31128/tnk/category-Cider-Press
Publishing standards: https://permies.com/t/17422/tnk/permies-publishing-standards
How permies works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads


 
Creighton Samuels
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r ranson wrote:

If it was posted in the cider press and you want me to have a look at it for a second opinion, please post a link to the thread.



I don't have access to the Cider Press.  You could help with that though....
 
Travis Johnson
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And this is why moderators have such a tough time, and a thankless job.

The key words here are, "What you call Satire, I read as Passive-Aggression". The word "read" is highlighted because that is how I perceived your post. It is not accusatory in any way, I was simply stating how I, and possibly others, might take your post, and why moderators have such latitude from Paul Wheaton to correct the problem, and nip it in the bud.

But my post was actually VERY NICE, as it was in support of this forum, in support of the moderators, and hopefully encouraging and uplifting to the management of this forum that make it great.

Pointing out reasons why people may post what they do allows my training and experience in human behavior to help moderators on this forum.
 
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Creighton Samuels wrote:

I don't have access to the Cider Press.  You could help with that though....



The really cool thing about permies is that it's really all up to us individually once we understand the parameters (perimeters?) of the site
As R and Nicole have said, just keep participating with helpful posts and you will be in the cider press in no time....it's easy!
 
r ranson
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Creighton Samuels wrote:

r ranson wrote:

If it was posted in the cider press and you want me to have a look at it for a second opinion, please post a link to the thread.



I don't have access to the Cider Press.  You could help with that though....



I'm going to read this as "I would like to make more apple worthy posts" as we take an extremely dim view of abusing the apple system.


You have some pretty good advice so far.  I know I tend to give apples to helpful answers to questions asked in the forums.  Have a look at the "zero reply" list (you can find a link at the top of the screen) to see if there are any questions that you can answer.  
 
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To add to what R said, I can't give people apples, but I report posts that I think should get an apple, and a kindly moderator often does add an apple to the post for me.  The posts I report for an apple are almost always posts where someone did something cool, especially if they post pictures of the process.  I love it when people take the time to show a step by step process, or a cool thing they came up with that I haven't seen before.  I also love it when people take pictures of their gardens, their food forests, their chicken coops, most anything a person made themselves.  Tyler is excellent at posting pictures of her brush dams, Joseph has great produce pictures, Mike's greenhouse pictures are great, Dale posts pictures of things he has made or demo'd, Nicole takes cool pictures of her garden areas, and on and on.  For myself, I'm making a concentrated effort to post only things that I am doing on my land, or building, or growing.  I don't post in the political or ethical threads anymore. There is just too great a chance to offend someone, and I appreciate the people here too much to want to take the chance.  Just my two cents worth.
 
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Trying to catch up on lots of things.  

I think I see that Creighton bought my political podcast and had stuff to say about it.   And some of the stuff to say came before listening to the whole thing.   And Creighton said some nice things, but they were political and outside the proper place.  

And then there was some analysis done on "nice."  Lessons were learned that "nice" is relative and subjective - an overall slippery fish.  And when you have 40 untrained volunteer staff, and 20 of them take a look, you end up going with the the definitions of the person that has the strictest standards.  And you don't get to know who that person was.

So, Creighton, first, let me say thank you for your kind words.   You wish to embrace me as part of your political group.   It's good to feel wanted!  And, as you pointed out, I prefer to remain apolitical.   For reasons.  I have a hundred powerful missions, and they are all hindered by political stuff.   My impression is that political stuff is a big part of who you are - and you seek to affect change through more political stuff.   I, on the other hand, am exploring a way to improve my forward velocity to see what political ballast I can carve off of my life.  

Next, the solution to nearly everything is "make the best of it".   We have come to a path that is working really well for us.  Generally, lots more discussion about hugelkultur, and nearly zero about politics.   Surely there are lots of places on the internet for talking about politics and very few places to talk about the details of permaculture.  There used to be sites that allowed political discussion along with their permaculture discussion.  Most of their discussion became dominated by politics and very little permaculture stuff was able to be addressed. So here we are trying to allow room for permaculture without the politics.

Mostly, I'm glad the staff has this all sorted.  I gotta race off to more meetings!  So much is happening!
 
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Trace Oswald wrote: I don't post in the political or ethical threads anymore. There is just too great a chance to offend someone, and I appreciate the people here too much to want to take the chance.  Just my two cents worth.



On occasion, I will post in threads in these areas, or make a joke in a thread outside this area, specifically because it is challenging to avoid offense while still conveying anything.

Kind of the opposite of trolling, I guess? And trolling is dead easy, this is hard. It's also exhausting and quite time consuming; I don't do it much, but I think it is good practice for other situations where avoiding offense is imperative and there are strong emotions in play.
 
Creighton Samuels
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paul wheaton wrote:Trying to catch up on lots of things.  

So, Creighton, first, let me say thank you for your kind words.   You wish to embrace me as part of your political group.   It's good to feel wanted!  And, as you pointed out, I prefer to remain apolitical.   For reasons.  



Thank you also, Paul.  I understand your position completely, and I will respect it.

I have nothing more to say on this topic.  If I could lock my own thread, I would.
 
pollinator
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The shame of it all is that I would love to hear what you have to say, Creighton. I mean, I also love a good flame war, but some of the best discussions some of us have on this site come dangerously close to flame war territory without actually going there.

But it all happens in the Cider Press. I look forward to you earning your wings, as it were. The advice about the "zero replies" button at the top of the forums page is spot-on. I have also noticed that if I come across a permaculturally-aligned article, or even one that can start a good permacultural discussion from non-aligned sources, or a video, for that matter, it will be appreciated if I start a thread about it in an appropriate place.

Perhaps not every new thread or post will garner the attention you're looking for, but honestly, how else do you become a successful gardener if you don't first kill a shit-tonne of plants (unintentionally, I mean). I think that a lot of people, even those more into politics, tend to value the ability to discuss things without them getting overtly political, such that there's no room to make a point because of pages of vitriol in the way. We can even have great political discussions here that would get drowned out by such on the wider interwebs. In the Cider Press, though, where missteps can make cider and cores of your apples, so there's less to wade through, and more discussion than the usual rhetoric.

Oh, and some posters to this site, with blogs or vlogs or whatever, will post threads to this site specifying that the first good post in response will get an apple for it. Keep an eye out for places where your specific knowledge base might prove an asset to someone. I wrote a post years ago about my first hugelbeet and how I built and started it, and I am still getting apples for it.

Oh, and if you want to indicate that you have the answers you need, you should see a button in the middle on the top of your original post that says "Resolved." That's sort of like locking the thread, I think.

-CK
 
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Sounds like 12 apples to get to Cider press, is to make it all for like minded people & so only the people who want back & head pats can comment.
Not really an open fourm & nothing I want to be apart of.
I for one want to hear honest open friendly debate, that open minded people can learn from.
Lucky for me there are other sites that meet this need.
 
Mother Tree
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Joe Grand wrote:Sounds like 12 apples to get to Cider press, is to make it all for like minded people & so only the people who want back & head pats can comment.
Not really an open fourm & nothing I want to be apart of.
I for one want to hear honest open friendly debate, that open minded people can learn from.
Lucky for me there are other sites that meet this need.



It's to keep out trolls and people who just want to debate rather than discuss.  Most of the topics discussed in there were once totally forbidden here as they took up far too much moderator time, but we've been gradually tweaking the system so that members who contribute well, and have earned apples to prove it, can post there.  Anyone who takes up too much moderator time tends to get apples removed, so trouble makers are kept out.

If all you want to do is debate, it might be best to find one of the multitudinous less well moderated forums to contribute to.  Otherwise, there are plenty of ways to earn apples, and plenty of different views in the members who can issue them so any useful post is capable of earning one.

Or write book reviews - they almost always get an apple or two.
 
paul wheaton
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This site was designed to be a small site for talking to people i like, about things I like, the way I like to talk about them.  It was never supposed to be anything close to "an open fourm".  As I have said nearly a thousand times:  if you want something different than what we have, you are welcome to create your own web site and run it the way you think is best.  

Lucky for me there are other sites that meet this need.



Good.  It sounds like this worked out great for everybody.
 
Chris Kott
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Joe Grand wrote:Sounds like 12 apples to get to Cider press, is to make it all for like minded people & so only the people who want back & head pats can comment.
Not really an open fourm & nothing I want to be apart of.
I for one want to hear honest open friendly debate, that open minded people can learn from.
Lucky for me there are other sites that meet this need.



It never fails to amaze me how highly some people regard their own potential contributions.

I mean, if someone's been on the site for years, has thousands of posts, hundreds of apples, and multiple pies-worth of pie, they still don't have any real clout vis-a-vis how the site is run or the mods judge things, but we're supposed to get all weepy because someone who hasn't put in the careful time and consideration it takes to garner a measly 12 apples to post in the cider press decides he's too good for this site?

I love the way the content on this site is curated under the publication standards, even though I am a regular user of the almost-a-post feature, or requests to rephrase this post or that.

Honestly, the only people I ever hear having irreconcilable difficulties around this topic are those who don't recognise their online posting activity as trollish, or who do, and gnash their teeth at never being able to "own" whatever political label is their bete noir of the day.

One interesting thing I have noticed is that threads like this are mostly the same, with the poster missing the point entirely, and anyone with a prior bone to pick chiming in. It's a lot of noise that, I think, can be useful to identify site users who might be happier elsewhere, at least until they drop their baggage at the door to engage properly in discussions about what we're actually here for: permaculture.

-CK
 
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