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Water Wheel

Posts: 10

Location: Wisconsin

posted 6 years ago

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Hello this spring im looking to build a water wheel that will pump water from my creek to my pond. The pond has decent flow. I really only want to pump water to the pond to increase flow and aeration though it for fish.
So my real question is where the hose connection is in the middle, where it would go to the pipe leading to the pond. How do you make that connection ? because it has to be able to turn and maintain a seal ? haven't been able to find youtube videos that really show what they are doing with that part. thanks

thomas rubino

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posted 6 years ago

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Hi Brandon ; Welcome to Permies!
What size pipe (from the pond) are we talking and what material is it made of?
How were you thinking of setting up your water wheel / pump ?
Is there drop to the pond ? Could a flume be built and used in place of a pump?

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Brandon Cbus

Posts: 10

Location: Wisconsin

posted 6 years ago

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thomas rubino wrote:Hi Brandon ; Welcome to Permies!
What size pipe (from the pond) are we talking and what material is it made of?
How were you thinking of setting up your water wheel / pump ?
Is there drop to the pond ? Could a flume be built and used in place of a pump?

Well I haven't quite decided any of that yet although I like the idea of using 1" to 1 1/2 plastic piping on the wheel and likely the same to the pond unless that size is supposed to upsized to reduce back pressure ?
The creek is actually lower than the pond and drains into the creek.
My main question is how do you handle the connection between the wheel and your discharge pipe, since it has to rotate and be sealed. I think some of the videos I saw just had a union that was loose and leaking. that doesn't seem the best way.

Bill Haynes

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posted 6 years ago

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Well....
I'm having a hard time visualizing the wheel you propose, but,
Assuming you are using an undershot wheel wouldn't logic dictate using the wheel as a prime mover to operate a simple pump?
And in that case there would be no "rotating connection to seal..... But,
If your wheels hub was higher than your storage tank/pond/etc then you could develop a sort of "twinned" wheel with half of it supplying motive force and the other half lifting a small volume of water. But.
One wonders why you wouldn't use tried and true "ram" technology, with only one moving part to replace every couple of years....
Google "water ram"

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Brandon Cbus

Posts: 10

Location: Wisconsin

posted 6 years ago

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I quess this is the kind of wheel I was looking at

Brandon Cbus

Posts: 10

Location: Wisconsin

posted 6 years ago

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Also I though a ram pump required a first pool higher than your pump to then pump it up to your highest pond. Unless you could use the river momentum to replace the first pool?

Bill Haynes

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posted 6 years ago

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A ram requires flowing water at a modest drop, as little as 5' drop will power a ram and it has the ability to lift roughly 300% of the initial drop.

But once again wouldn't it be much simpler to simply use the wheel as a prime mover for a low volume, positive displacement,( rubber impeller, screw, gear, or piston) pump?

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Brandon Cbus

Posts: 10

Location: Wisconsin

posted 6 years ago

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It could be but, I haven't seen any examples of how that works, if I look for videos of water wheels I always see the style I showed.

Bill Haynes

Posts: 221

posted 6 years ago

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To address the specific question:
YouTube has a variety of rotating couplings, everything from repurposed hydraulic pressure couplings, to a hybrid made of a flashlight and pvc,
All of them depend on "O" rings for a sealing surface, and all of them will leak to a greater or lesser degree, dependent on the motive force (horsepower) you have to spend.
Horsepower will be dependent on many factors (the volume and speed of water, the surface area of your "cups", the length of your momentum arm, the additive friction of your device in whole.
It an inverse relationship,
More HP? the tighter you can couple the joint, (less water loss) at the cost of accelerated wear.
Less HP? the looser the joint the more wasted water due to leakage, with the benefit of increased longevity.
None of them will be long lasting, and none of them will seal perfectly....but they may serve well enough for the cost incurred.

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently patient fool!
I hate people who use big words just to make themselves look perspicacious.

Bill Haynes

Posts: 221

posted 6 years ago

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When I say prime mover it simply means the water wheel takes the place of a gasoline or electric motor.
In that case all your looking at is the appropriate gear ratio's of a pulley on the output shaft of your water wheel coupled via belt/chain/gears/ to a pulley on the input shaft of a positive displacement pump, (centrifugal pumps would be a no go in this case....)

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently patient fool!
I hate people who use big words just to make themselves look perspicacious.

Brandon Cbus

Posts: 10

Location: Wisconsin

posted 6 years ago

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I see your point, and either way seems like a viable option. I would still like to know how they make that connection though.

Bill Haynes

Posts: 221

posted 6 years ago

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Here is the commercial version:
https://www.ngclark.com.au/brands/deublin/rotating-unions-and-rotary-joints/water-and-hot-oil-unions/
Here is the schematic (and blow by blow diy!):
https://lurkertech.com/water/pump/tailer/#xtocid21326

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I hate people who use big words just to make themselves look perspicacious.

T Melville

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posted 6 years ago

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Looks to me like they used a pipe that fit tightly into a pillow bearing so it could turn. The pipe on the other side is stationary. I think there is no direct pipe to pipe seal, but that water floods the bearing. Because the bearing is sealed, the water leaves through the outlet pipe. (The path of least resistance.)

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Bill Haynes

Posts: 221

posted 6 years ago

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You might Google "Bunyip pump"
Dunno how tough it would be to get it past customs!
Remember $AUS = .65 per $1.00 as of 02/2020

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently patient fool!
I hate people who use big words just to make themselves look perspicacious.

Jeremy Baker

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Location: Nomadic

posted 6 years ago

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Ive heard of ‘water lubricated bearings’ but m not sure what they are made of?

Bill Haynes

Posts: 221

posted 6 years ago

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Stainless,
It simply means water flushed through them to keep them cool,
Its very much a misnomer as water is a solvent and provides no lubrication whatsoever, they will last longer than uncooled -unlubricated bearing but nowhere near as long as a sealed filtered bearing with proper friction modifiers (That is not necessarily oil!).

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently patient fool!
I hate people who use big words just to make themselves look perspicacious.

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