• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • r ranson
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Joseph Lofthouse
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Leigh Tate
  • Nicole Alderman
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
  • Jay Angler
gardeners:
  • Jules Silverlock
  • S Rogers
  • Rachel Lindsay

Remediating high water table in planting area, advice sought.

 
Posts: 85
Location: Chemung, NY
3
homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
We started a new orchard on higher ground with a nice slope facing mostly E to ESE on our homestead in the Southern Tier of New York. The old house and previous little orchard is down in the "hollow", the lowest part of the land next to the creek with a steep slope to the East and is the worst frost pocket, so we lose a lot of harvests due to early warming followed by hard freezes, as well as excessive rain and poor air circulation. This is just going to worsen with climate change. The soil is much deeper in the new site, (Lounsden type) with a good loam from 6' to a foot deep with a heavy clay beneath. The clay forms a somewhat impermeable layer so that, when we dug the holes for the new apple trees this Spring, there was standing water in the holes where the roots would naturally lie. Our solution for these first four apple trees was to remove the clay subsoil and rock to a depth of two to three feet, roughen the sides of the large hole, and use topsoil from nearby to backfill and raise the base of the young trees to about 8" above the surrounding soil. A nearby nursery with the same land/soil type uses this "raised mound" technique with success but does it a bit differently. He digs a trench on the downhill side of the row, creating a long planting mound much higher. The trench actually holds the water rather than draining it.  Our situation is different in that there is a small culvert to the South of where we are planting now which brings water from the neighbor's hayfield across the road which creates a big slough that has filled in with water loving shrubs, mostly Grey Dogwood (Cornus racemosa).  That might be adding to the problem and I plan to have a plunge pool dug at its outlet and 6" drainage pipe laid at a 5% slope underground to carry that water off (down to the creek and beaver ponds) so that we can continue the planting across the entire field.  This is the best place for our Food Forest of all fruits and nut trees that will do well here.

Now that you know the situation, here is the question.  What suggestions do you have for planting fruit and nut trees here?  I have considered Hugelcultur but my previous experience of the planting area settling as the wood rots  creates too much uncertainty about what the ultimate height above the water line the trees would be.  Also,  at 69 years old with advanced arthritis in my hands (and elsewhere), my ability to move the amount of woody debris to build it is really too much for me.  I do have a good tractor with a manure bucket, and could use that to create bigger mounds for the trees. I think a ridge would create mowing problems ( I use a brush hog). We get a LOT of rain here and growth of grass, forbs, and shrubs (many invasive like honeysuckle and Cardinal Autumn Olive) as well as trees, grow like Topsy all summer, high enough to choke young fruit trees!  

Any suggestions, solutions, similar experiences to share, would be welcome.  I'll try to add pics to this post when I get up there on the tractor for a good shooting angle (I'm only 5' tall and much of the surrounding vegetation is taller than me!).   Thanks!
 
pollinator
Posts: 1019
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
359
kids dog home care duck rabbit urban books building writing ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I can offer no planting advice, but you do mention a beaver pond, downstream, that causes me concern.  When beavers reach the age of two they must move on, find their own water, create their own dam, and find a life partner...you may be putting your orchard RIGHT in the path of what could easily be a near a new beaver pond.

Ensure you either enclose the orchard with electrified netting/fencing, or a metal climb proof/tunnel proof enclosure that will deter the beavers.  Sadly, once you realize they have chosen your orchard as their new feeding grounds, it will be too late, and damage will have been done.

Keep in mind, each year, that years two year olds WILL need to move on...this may mean you have been lucky, so far, but eventually someone will swim upstream,  spot your orchard and take advantage.  Being proactive will save a lot of heartache down the road.

As to watering the trees, many years ago I knew someone who planted a cedar hedge, in the trench they put permeable soaker hose, then planted the trees on top, and they grew exceptionally well, especially when compared to the section where they ran out of soaker hose, and were surface watering - those ones fared poorly and look stunted by comparison.  Perhaps something along these lines could work for the new fruit trees, or maybe with a loop in the hole, fed by regular hose, going from tree to tree, connected to a gravity fed water source???  Good luck!
 
Freyda Black
Posts: 85
Location: Chemung, NY
3
homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lorinne,
The beavers have been here for over two decades. Upstream is in the opposite direction and the trees are protected by rings of welded wire fence 6' high against deer, the worst tree predator here.
You did not read carefully, as you are recommending a way to water the trees when the problem is too high a water table and poor drainage.
 
pollinator
Posts: 3554
Location: Massachusetts, Zone:6/7 AHS:4 GDD:3000 Rainfall:48in even Soil:SandyLoam pH6 Flat
482
2
forest garden solar
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I recommend doing what the local nurseries/orchard around you do, that is alternating rows of highland/hugelcultutur (dry) and depressions/swales (wet).
 
master steward
Posts: 12281
Location: USDA Zone 8a
3555
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Freyda said, "What suggestions do you have for planting fruit and nut trees here?



Observation is one of the first principles of permaculture design.  Observe your land when it is raining.  Where is the runoff?  Where are the puddles?

To me, these are the areas you want to avoid.  

Where is the best drainage?  Which part of your land is the highest? Would these areas work for fruit trees?
 
Posts: 50
Location: Cascadia Zone 8b Clay
8
7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have to agree with the idea of the swales and berms.

We are in Oregon and our water table is at the surface of the land in most places on our little farm. Dig a hole in winter, come back and it's full right to the top. We have been planting on this land now for nearly 9 years and all our first attempts failed until we put in our first major swale and berm system with ponds and spillways as part of a permaculture design and pond system. It took two years to do it (permits and etc took one whole year) but now it is so gorgeous and lush and grows everything beautifully.

Read Akiva Silver's Trees of Power - he is in that hilly clay NY area like you and his book taught us how to do it right. :)

We put in big 'tree berms' for individual trees planted out (walnuts, hazels etc.) and build long shelter-belt hugel type berms for planting out shelter belts of mixed fruit, nut and flowering trees and perennials for wildlife and us. The individual tree berms we now surround with old cut up logs to build a sort of structure around and then plant in the middle of it - we adopted this after reading about a guy who planted in the interior of old cedar tree stumps on his PNW land and it also worked.

We discovered a natural seasonal run-off that travels underground above our upper pond and then opens up out in the lower field and so we planted river birches and cover cropped the area to build it up to be a lush wet area during the hot arid summers.

But all the trees we put in in raised mounds or berms to keep the root crown out of the water. Any tree we didn't do this for, other than a few amazingly hardy apples and cherries in our lower orchard, eventually suffocated. :(
It's possible to dig a tree up and raise it later if you do it in dormant season but man it's a LOT more work than planting it right to start with.

Good Luck! You'll have beautiful bearing and amazing looking trees in just a few years if you do it right to start. :)

We took a couple extra years but now we have them and they are so lovely and bountiful and as the hedges and trees grow we have more shade, more coolness and less wind - :) Great bonus!

P.S. Totally jealous of your beavers! Our friends have them along a year round stream on their place... They are a marvel to watch. There's room for all of us here, and we can learn from every creature we encounter if we just pay attention.
 
Where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking and all the tiny ads are above average:
Tiny House Magazine (Issue 121)
https://permies.com/wiki/208685/Tiny-House-Magazine
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic