Children and permaculture

Am i the only one that has never noticed any mention of children ? raising ,teaching,helping,playing @ permies.

Some of the introductions mention kids. I have one. He's all grown up though. He's almost 19 and knows everything. Just kidding. He's a good kid and has never been a problem. I raised him with respect and responsiblity. Onlies tend to be quite mature. I'm glad his new gf is into permaculture.

Richard. How about you? Kids? Have any/want them? Ideal # of kids....homeschooling them? Unschool them? Discuss

Pat: I hear ya..They all seem to know more than me ..Im afraid the permies site and the info contained is a fairly new topic to me.While i find it facinating im a little over the hill for its use .I do little tidbits .My children are grown and pretty much stuck in the hustle bustle world that we have all known...My children and me that is ..I try to mention and talk of permaculture to my grand children..They are stuck in their world of games and to total boredom.Im afraid they are all in for a shock ..The world is certainly changing. I have 25 acres in W. Mass. USA.but at this time no means to develope it.My wife could care less of permies,lol I love her more than life,however i do get very angry at her at times.I planted garlic and braided it per permies ..All she said is the house smells like garlic ..GRRRRRR!... I preach permaculture to everyone i come to and hopefully influence someone to its practices. VGL to you and yours.

The topic of children does come up occasionally, but not often. There are threads about homeschooling, diaper-free, and breastfeeding in permies, to name a few. I get the impression that most of the people on here either don't have kids, or their kids are grown. Some of us do have kids at home, though.
If you want to talk about children, I'd be more than happy to join in. I have a 9yo and a 6yo, and am a Waldorf teacher.

Hi. 2 kids seems like a huge responsibility to me. Do you plan on homeschooling. I guess they are both school aged now.
My son went to traditional school but I wouldn't make him do homework that I felt accomplished nothing. It seems some teachers give homework for no purpose at all. Time wasting 101 is what I called it.
Kids need play more than useless memorizing. Kids also need to put down the techie games and learn how to create/invent their own games w/ rules. They need outside time and socializing. Also, I think we ought to letthem fail or fall down in life. Too much praise and shielding them from failures isn't realistic.
Rant over.

My kids attend the Waldorf school where I teach.
Patrick, it sounds like you'd probably like Waldorf school. It's entirely play-based in preschool and kindergarten: no academics until 1st grade. No computers in the classrooms, no homework until 3rd grade, lots of real-word experience and arts are incorporated into all subjects. Outdoor play every day, and many other outdoor activities. I'm really lousy at explaining Waldorf education, and I really think it's hard to understand without actually observing or experiencing it, but I think our school website explains it pretty well.
Four Winds Waldorf School
My older daughter's teacher has also been known to rant about homework that is more a time-waster than a learning tool.

Waldorf sounds like a wonderful concept..I agree that children need to play and create, to feel the wonders of life..Permaculture, it seems is much more rewarding if you have your own property.Getting from childhood tohaving your own place is a huge barrier to practicing the life style..In my state i would have to disobey many many restrictions ,or be a millionaire to meet requirements .Just to build a barn or chicken coop ,or even cut down a tree to allow sunlight in .So many barriers..Attitudes are changing and appreciation of the earth is the only way to survive with comfort..I believe permie children will be leading the way .I have to go so catch ya later...tks

Have you seen Lazure painting technique? I love it! It's part of the Waldorf curriculum for art education. When whole rooms are painted it looks amazing!
The artist uses his/her whole body to move and flow.
http://www.lazurepainting.com/newabout.html

Hopefully the next generation of kids will be into nature and self expression more than my generation.

This is an awesome talk from Sir Ken Robinson about 'educating' kids.
http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

I have four children. they are all young still, between 3 and 13. they are a big part of why i want to get into this lifestyle, so that they will learn it and just be accustomed to it. i do not have the ability to go off the grid or anything but i am teaching them about plants and sustainability. i do plan to eventually install solar panels, ect. i would eventually like to do this on a whole lot of land instead of just my little piece, so they can see how well we can provide for ourselves without having to work eighty hour weeks, ect. two of my kids are autistic as well, i think their need for routine will help them in this type of lifestyle and that they will be more able to thrive this way, especially if i can somehow get set up on more land...... i love the idea of homeschooling but can't do it myself because it is just too much for me to handle along with teaching quilting classes and running the house.

Our two boys are grown with their own families...we have six grandchildren and one great!
We were off the grid when they were born and for another sixteen years...then we moved my mom in with us so needed something a little more civilized. We did not homeschool but drove the boys out to meet the school bus over miles of gravel road. We felt like we spent a lot of time counteracting southern prejudices but felt they needed the social exposure a school could provide and for the most part it was good. Our youngest was mad at us for the longest time when he started school and found out all the other kids had television and then by third grade all of the other kids had hunting guns. Both boys are really hard workers, I always thought our lifestyle taught them to work equally hard for money or not, and now, they do love to grow food, love an outdoor lifestyle, natural history. They did spend some time rejecting our ideas and lifestyle after highschool. Now I suspect they just humor us but they say they appreciate our values.

After 65yrs of observation.1 thing seems to always pop to the top of the listwith child rearing...No matter how hard you try and strive to make a better life for your young ones...YOU DID IT WRONG,when listening to the next gen of child rearers...lol

I have two little boys who will be 5 and 2 in a couple of months time. They are a big part of the reason that I want to live sustainably and I want to provide a healthy space for them to grow. We are unschooling and I hope that this will help to buffer them from the excesses of capitalism and celebrity culture that seem pervasive.

Just thinking of having a kid. Getting to be 'now or never' time...

Our rural landscape continues to de-populate, more big box stores in the big centers, small towns drying up...a lot of schools closing and i hate the thought of a kid having to waste three hours a day or more sitting on a bus. I don't know if we'd home school or just move. A few years to think about it.

I like the idea of 'un-schooling'...did you have something specific in mind? I worry a bit about small community and being the wierdo parents and not being able to keep up with all the necessary 'stuff' these days....want to teach my values but also don't want the kid to be socially isolated and teased..

I had hopes that the home schooling crowd here would be made up of all the progressive people who are hiding out in the cracks and crannies, but i looked into it and it seems more dominated by people who are hard core fundamentalists upset with our government's putting things like 'tolerance' and valuing diversity on the curriculum...that was kind of disappointing for me, to find out that there would be no community there for us...

The home education community around here is fantastic so I don't have any concerns about social isolation. I feel that the structured approach to education can be so damaging to the inquiring mind. I spent 20 years teaching at some of the best universities and saw the detrimental effect of the changes in our approach to education.

I agree with so much being said here. Homeschooling can be greatbut if you happen to live in an area w/ a lot of fundies your kid's sports days or outings w/ the other homeschoolers can be ackward or hostile.
Science fair projects? How about a Noah's Ark as "proof" of the flood.
Some kids should be exposed to others and um,actual sciences!

Thinking back about my post I've been feeling a bit like a hypocrite here...one reason I'm interested in home schooling is that I don't feel that my values, spiritual and otherwise, are well-represented in mainstream society. Which is pretty much the same motivation that's driving the people I was being critical of. I guess the difference is that though I'm pretty sure My Way is the Right Way , I think it's really important to respect other viewpoints and traditions and celebrate diversity. And yes, recognize the appropriate role of science in informing our decisions.

Back to the homesteading...I grew up on a small farm in a rural area, and it was a great, super place to be a kid...until about thirteen and then it really sucked for a while, left as quick as i could and loved the city and university....it took a long time to come back...i guess being a teenager is tough wherever you are, but a really small community isn't an easy road...

My kids are still young (2 and 3yo) but I've made solid efforts to instill them with critical thinking skills and imaginative play. I try not to structure too many activities, as I like to let them direct their own learning. Buy doing this, I've found that the two of them have very different ways of learning. My son is a good listener and likes to sit and be read to. He asks lots of questions and can remember just about everything you tell him. He repeats information with enthusiasm and is excited to show what he knows to anyone that will listen or watch. My daughter won't sit at all to be read to, but she's captivated by hands-on solitary activity. She's quiet in a crowd but very vocal in one-on-one situations. She knows a lot more than she lets on and is very very very stubborn. She won't do anything she doesn't want to, no matter what.

What's important to me is that they develop critical thinking skills and the fortitude to stand up to peers when their challenged on what they know. I want them to be willing to change their views if there is sufficient evidence to do so. I want them to be comfortable with the phrase " I don't know" when they don't have an answer based in fact. I want them to have the drive to learn what they don't know, rather than make up or accept answers based on authority or bullying.
As a kid I had a lot of run-ins with teachers and principals because I knew more than them on specific topics. I often found myself bored in class and then my mind would wander to more interesting things. I was often accused (and convicted) of being insubordinate because of my refusal to bow to the ignorance of those authority figures. I spent time in "in-school suspension" where the "bad kids" were isolated from the rest of the school to help correct our behavior. Fat lot of good that did!
These problems could easily have been resolved if they would have listened to me and placed me in higher level classes of the subjects I excelled in.

I don't want my kids to have to deal with the type of bullying from authority figures that stifles learning and causes kids to become disinterested in school. My intention for my kids, when school time comes, is to encourage them to do the best they can but not to get overwhelmed with one subject. If they have struggles we can always come back to it later on. If that means that I have to have more direct control over their schooling then so be it. I like the idea of home school or un-schooling but I have concerns about interactions with other kids. We live in a small town (less than 700 people) so with that in mind, I intend to have them go to the local public school where class sizes are small. They will have extra learning opportunities here at home so that they can keep learning the things they want to know at an accelerated pace. I've never been a fan of homework in most cases. Doing pages of repetitive work isn't helpful, it's just time consuming and makes kids resent the subject at hand. I'm also not a fan of standardized tests for similar reasons. There is no evidence to show that it gets better results from students. Standardized tests do seem to increase stress and anxiety in kids though.

The home-schooling crowd tends to be religious fundamentalist so um... NO! If you have to threaten a kids with burning in hell and isolating them from all other ideas (and kids) to get them to follow a curriculum, then you're setting them up to fail in the real world. I've known a lot of kids who came out of fundy home school settings and I've noticed two main outcomes. 1: The wider world eats them alive as they've never had any experience dealing with non-fundy folks and they simply suffer from the culture shock of real life. It blows a huge hole in their world view and it takes a long time for them to adjust if they ever manage to adjust at all. 2: They go off the deep end trying to experience all the things they missed out on growing up, and end up in real trouble. Quite a few of the fundy kids I knew were overwhelmed by drugs, alcohol as well as promiscuous behavior once they got away from their overbearing religious parents. They simple didn't know how to control themselves once they were let off the leash. It seems to me that they have a good "education" in most areas but in the places where the religious views dominate(sciences), they have a lot of cognitive struggles. This isn't true in all cases but it's what I've noticed in a lot of cases growing up. Most of those kids never really managed to "get it together" enough to really succeed.

Some of the charter schools seem to have a good thing going in that they allow more flexibility in their curriculum so that kids can have a more focused education in things they want to learn. Most public school are forcing a kid to be kept behind because of one subject they don't understand, thus making them repeat the other seven subjects that they do understand for essentially NO REASON. That's what happened to a friend of mine in high school. He later dropped out because he didn't do well in English class and was faced with repeating tenth grade for a second time. Rather than suffer through the same seven classes again, he gave up and dropped out. It took years for him to get back on track, but by then all his friends ( including me) had moved on to other things.

We live in a society where we need people with specialized educations and yet we spend all this extra time forcing kids to learn things they either don't need or don't want to know. There should be no set rule that says you need four years of gym to graduate high school even if you maintain straight A's in everything else. I love math and science. History was fun at times, but I knew that knowing all about Medieval Europe wasn't going to get me a job as a Biologist. I could have used that time to further my knowledge in chemistry or anatomy. Instead I had to spend serious time and money learning those subjects in college.

If I had more control over my education I feel like I cold have done a lot more in those years. I'm ok but certainly not at my full potential. I don't intend to allow that to happen to my kids. For that reason they will direct their education and I will see to it that they get the best educational opportunities possible.

I had hopes that the home schooling crowd here would be made up of all the progressive people who are hiding out in the cracks and crannies, but i looked into it and it seems more dominated by people who are hard core fundamentalists upset with our government's putting things like 'tolerance' and valuing diversity on the curriculum...that was kind of disappointing for me, to find out that there would be no community there for us...

It's good for you and them to hang out with someone who thinks differently Actually, it depends where you are, I guess, and people with strong (loud?) opinions are always the first one's you run into in a new group. There are pretty conservative folks homeschooling around here (they're generally the ones willing to go without that second paycheck because they feel the mom should be home with the kids) and sometimes young-earthers (not my favorite church movement ever) but rarely rabid fundamentalists, at least the homeschoolers I hang with. I homeschool one of my kids, the other goes to the charter school down the road. That way, we make life as complicated as possible They are 9 and 10, we don't homeschool due to religious beliefs, yes, we are Christian but I figure I have smart kids, they are learning to think for themselves, school only gets them part of the day after all. The interaction between children at school concerns me more than the school's curriculum, as they get older, they get a little more unpleasant when they hang in large groups. There are so many awesome things about homeschooling. The kid I have at home has Asperger's Syndrome (catalyst for taking him out of school) he's smart, we don't do busy work, we don't do drills (things that would have him crying under his desk, breaking pencils, throwing chairs...), we don't plant a bean in a cup and call it biology. We read books and discuss them, we plant gardens and see and discuss the relationships between plants, bugs, animals. When we butcher, we examine the innards, when we find a plant/animal we don't recognize, we look it up. He doesn't think he does much "school" since the only part he views as school is the math and writing. I make him write me stories if I can't think of any "real" assignment, sometimes he draws comics, sometimes they are even funny. Do you know, a kid can come up with a brand new story idea every day? The only thing he's missing is "socialization" according to the school staff, but since he has friends (some next door), cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents and a brother, and no one has defined that "socialization" for me, I'm not too worried. If the only thing he doesn't ever learn is how to do Riggs spelling drills (gag me, I'd probably crawl under my desk too) at a desk with 20 other kids doing the same, I'm ok with that. I want to homeschool the other too, but he's mr social butterfly and loves sports, so I haven't had the heart to cut him off yet.

I don't want my kids to have to deal with the type of bullying from authority figures that stifles learning and causes kids to become disinterested in school.

Sometimes it's not even bullying. My son's teachers were all very good, kind, concerned about each student and it is a charter school committed to individual learning with small classes and a full time aid in each one. The principal is a great guy, likes my kids, said on more than one occasion that, "The problem is, he makes a good point" about my son arguing when he was sent to the office for the umpteenth time for disrupting the class. The trouble is, the teacher has to teach in a classroom setting and the kids have to behave appropriately in that setting which does not mean you can discuss with the teacher, in the middle of an assignment, which stuff you feel you don't need to do because you already know it and you can't burst into loud, uncontrollable sobs because there is exactly one hour for math and you were obsessing about the computer time you might get if you finish your math ahead of time, but you went to fast so you had some redos and another kid finished first and got to the computer before you and you don't deal with stress well and you already were under some because you got shut down on the "why should I do this when I already know it" discussion and you don't understand why your opinion shouldn't have as much weight as any other in the room because even though the teacher's authority has been explained, you don't get it instinctively like the other kids who don't question, they just do because an adult told them to... He tried, they tried, the reality is that sometimes it's not a good fit. It's a miracle as many children do well in schools as they do. I'm more convinced every day we are not meant to learn in classrooms, and that they are just a safety net at best, to be sure that everyone is exposed to some sort of literacy. It's good for rote learning and that's about it.

This is probably the first time I've mentioned my kids here because I usually come looking for specific information and ideas about growing stuff.

A Philipsen wrote:

It's good for you and them to hang out with someone who thinks differently

Agreed, For sure!
We both have a strong science background and it sounds fun to 'geek it up' a bit with the a kid. We're also both socially awkward, so we'd really have to work on keeping plugged in socially. I guess that's where I would find a like-minded home schooling community a bit easier, but I bet there are lots of good folk out there we could be friends with.

We're also both socially awkward, so we'd really have to work on keeping plugged in socially. I guess that's where I would find a like-minded home schooling community a bit easier,

I feel your pain, truly. I do not love meeting new people, I don't like people in groups. If I didn't have so much family nearby and neighbors that I can't avoid (and thankfully like and am incredibly grateful for) our social lives would be pretty sparse. I just couldn't resist a little dig at a complete stranger (hmm, wonder why I'm not more popular). If you're in east Linn county, you are welcome to hang with us, we could be awkward together and avoid discussing religion (wait, does it say where you live on your profile?). We don't actually do much schooling with groups, we hang with other homeschoolers sometimes because we're all not in school at the same time, but most of my kids' friends go to the public school. I guess what I'm trying to say is "don't worry about it". Even if every homeschooler near you is crazy, if you're not socially isolated, your kids won't be either. They are very capable of forming relationships outside their peer group and they only need a few in their peer group to be happy. Also, you don't have kids yet, right? You will probably meet piles of other new parents when you are one, everyone is looking for a support group at that point Also, kids are the best to "geek it up with" because everything is fascinating and new to them. They are like little sponges with amazing absorption powers, so fun.

Looking back we probably still would have sent our boys to a public school. The one they went to was very small...graduating classes of 15 to 20 and limited funding for art and music (but we had that covered at home) and very basketball oriented but both boys and girls teams and no cheerleaders. There were a few"hippy" kids in every class so they didn't feel so odd....we always felt like we helped play a part in liberalizing the area and learned a lot ourselves from local folks. It taught me that you can make a difference when you talk to someone one on one and find common ground instead of thinking in sterotypes about whole groups of people.
We just sort of landed here and had the good fortune to grow with a community of other "back to the land" folks and a wonderful craft and music community.

edited to add: our boys were born in 1975 and 78...so I am talking school in the eighties and nineties. Their old school so far has avoided consolidation because of community support and academic record.

Change topic slightly.
How do you feel about guiding your kid/s away from such a materialistic "normal" paradigm. I mean, somesimes I feel like some cult deprogrammer for my son. I feel I have to redirect his mind from Nike, McDonald's, bigger is better,newer is better....that society hears/sees all day. I want him to think about sustainability and self reliance but damn it,he's 18 and is autonomous.
I'm worried he will join the rat race.

Good question! That and how much screen time / online time?

Saw an old Far Side cartoon once that's stuck with me...it was Barnum and Bailey's kids, dressed in suits and ties with little briefcases, crawling out from under the side of the big top tent...they were running away from the circus to join Corporate America.

I suspect you have to just give them the tools they need and stand back and see what happens...my parents were great but I had to go and learn everything the hard way.

Ooh, at 18 my parents couldn't really guide me at all. I think at that point, you gotta let him do what he's going to do and set a good example. If he does enter the rat race, maybe he will gain an increased appreciation for "not the rat race" and in a few years when he realizes you knew what you were talking about, which we all seem to do, he can leave it behind and not wonder what he's missing.

For my little ones, there's almost no TV and no video games, we do play and watch a little on the computer, but they are insulated from the advertising and we live in the boonies so sticks, dirt, and water are what they mostly play with. If you have a TV and your son is living at home, you can turn it off, that gives a little instant distance from pop culture, but other than that, I got nothing. If you try very hard to deprogram him, he will likely push back and it may drive him further away.

He's a major skier and they have a culture of celebrity.they really idolize the top guys and all the freebies and endorsement deals. When he blows out his knees he may listen to me.
I am lucky to have avoided TV for the first 15 yrs or so. We read books,biked and did xcountry skiing til he discovered downhill with us and then freestyle.

I think that with autonomy comes some rebellion sorts. My first mission once I got out of my parents house was to do all the things they told me not to do. I had a lot of fun, did a lot of stupid things and eventually ran out of steam. I always had a good work ethic so I always had some money to blow. I also had a drive to stay out of the house I grew up in, I didn't want to live with my parents ever again. In that regard I was motivated to eventually start making the decisions necessary to put distance between us so I'd never have to worry about that. I began to really understand frugality once I took a job with less pay at a time when I was living in the most expensive place I ever lived. After seeing a few months of diminishing bank account statements I started to reconsider a lot of my "extra" purchases.
When it comes to young adults, you can't force them to make decisions they don't want to make. Lead by example and continue to encourage them to really consider the choices they have. In the grand scheme, shoes, mobile devices and the like aren't that huge of a deal. I've found that you can save a lot more on the recurring expenses like RENT, CAR PAYMENTS and EATING OUT.

One thing I learned really fast was that the girls would over look my crappy truck and barren apartment as long as I could cook a great meal. And that worked out just fine.


As a side note: One of my best friends was an inline skater and was really good. He was eventually signed on to a professional contract with sponsors and a video/DVD deal. On the first day of his first professional DVD shoot, he fell bad a blew out his knee. He never recovered 100% and thus lost not only the Pro deal, but most of his friends who were on tour and didn't have time to visit him either. Now he works as a gas station attendant at 30 years old. When I see him he always talks about the "old days" and how he wished he did "something" smart with his money before blew out his knee. I guess the lesson is to have a back up plan "just in case".

We started down this homesteading permaculture path because of our kids. We we suburbanites caught in the race until my oldest entered kindergarten. He is bright and was in one of the best public school systems in the country with an awesome teacher that truly cared--but was still wallowing. The system is set up to fail. The teacher spends 50% of their time with the problem child in the class (may be a bad kid, may be a learning disability), 25% of their time on other red tape, and then after lunch and recess they have a few minutes a day to actually teach. They teach to the first deviation below average (or lower) so everyone above that either gets slowed down or has to self-learn.

So we started home-schooling. Then we planted a garden in the back yard. Then we decided we needed more than a postage stamp back yard. So we bought some land, lived in the barn, and built a house (but a modern "proper" house with a mortgage). Now we are converting from modern ways to a mix of old and permaculture.

The only way to make that all work is with child involvement--life integration, learning by doing, mentorship, apprenticeship, family business--what ever you want to call it it is critical for most kids to APPLY their learning to make it stick. My Amish neighbors say a child should pull their own weight for the household by the time they are 5 and by 10 should be making money for the family business. Kids learn while they work, if you are training them correctly.

My conservative friends think I am a hippie living on a commune in the middle of nowhere. My liberal friends think I am a right wing gun-nut living on a compound in the middle of nowhere. My fundy friends think I am too libertarian, my libertarian friends think I am too fundy.

I guess I am a fundy libertarian gun-nut hippie. My personal motto is "normal is boring" so I am right where I want to be.

R.Scott: LOL You sound like a crazy american to me ,,God bless freedom and independence..Skip God if ud like .Bless freedom and independence.We still have choices. I do think there is a huge movement to earthly ideals.Teaching the children while gradually moving the country toward environmental friendly practices is a worthwhile goal..Bullying people into financial ruin will not work..Teaching better ways to be independent has always been the american way. The pendulum swings.There is no reason to give up our freedom ..Americans are not stupid as some would assume.

[quote=richard willey]You sound like a crazy american to me [/quote]

That is the one thing all my friends can agree on...

I've got three kids; six, three, and 16 months. Materialism has already been well established with them. It took me 36 years to realize that all this stuff we are supposed to care about and work hard to achieve, means almost nothing. I've had good jobs, and high paying jobs, and I've never been happy for very long. I like to hope that I've figured out what and where I'm supposed to be, and what I'm supposed to be doing. Permaculture is one of the few ideas that makes sense to me anymore. I had all my kids outside today gathering up planters so we can plant out a bunch of willow branches I've rooted. We will start homeschooling our oldest in the next couple of weeks.

got some potatoes out of my first hugle bed ...so rewarding...my grandson helped me pull them and was very excited ..lots of fun

Hello all, I have a wonderful husband and two beautiful girls 12 & 3. We started on the path of living a simpler life right from the start of our marriage. We always lived of the deer meat we shot and garden that I planted. However in the last 5 years we have took it to a higher level. Wanting our girls to grow up without all the modern tech (games TV act) we knew we did not want them apart of the CRAP most kids are in. It was important for us that our girls stay focus on what is important in life. First & foremost is serving our Lord Jesus! Now at days living and being a part of the WORLD or RAT RACE, make is sometimes difficult to do that. We realized early on that TV games and all that junk took us and our girls away form time with our Lord, so we got rid of a lot. Second important thing we want to teach our girls is how to live of the land and survive without government handouts. By doing this we are also teaching them to be good stewards of the land witch we are commanded to be. We have been homeschooling for 3 years now and have seen such an impotent in my oldest daughter grades and attitude.
My 12 year old often reads and listens to the videos on permie. We have used this site to learn and teach many things. I pray more people take a step back from all the CRAP the world has to offer & look to the important simple things in life, Faith Family and healthy living for all.
Though it all our one goal is to raise to wonderful Godly women that care about their neighbors and that can live on their own in hard times. Cuz God know, most of us are going through hard time right now and need faith and the know how to get though.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa

Millions in the world are trying to live in peace and to tread softly on this earth of ours.

When raising my son I always thought of being kind first and foremost.

We should behave to our friend,as we would wish our friends to behave to us.-Aristotle.

I'll add that my philosophy was to always treat my son the way I would want to be treated. I would never strike another adult so why would I think that that is acceptable with children. If you wouldn't strike your mate/boss/friend why would we use such tactics on children?
Respect them and they'll learn to behave well and respect others.

I have tons of kids, but I get the feeling that a vast majority of the folks here are too young to have their own kids yet

This is my first post. My "first" children are now 32...and a 33 year old nephew. Then, a 23 year old and now a 7 year old. Four boys and a girl. They were all raised in the suburbs but were involved in boycotts, vegetarianism, etc. They each started their educations in Montessori Schools ( I am certified ), moving homeschool, then unschooling.
The first three love the suburbs...the last two yearn for a homestead. The 23 year old is back home for a few months.

Our dream is to have a homestead where we will have our own homes, yet work together to maintain the homestead. I cannot even consider government schools.

Kelly Smitherson wrote:I have tons of kids, but I get the feeling that a vast majority of the folks here are too young to have their own kids yet

Not me, two sons, six grandchildren and one great grand...I think this site is full of young thinkers no matter their age.

I have 2 kids 6 and 2 and I have been dreaming of having my own farm for as long as I can remember I wish my kids could grow up on a farm. My 6 year old goes to a Waldorf school now. But we have home schooled him up to this point and when we finally get our farm we probably will again. Does anyone know a place where we might be able to stay on a farm to learn how to care for livestock and help out for a few years? (My son goes to school in western mass). It doesn't seem like most farms are interested in having children. My kids love animals and helping out on the Hawthorn Valley Farm (organic & bio-dynamic). We are hard workers!

Kelly Smitherson wrote:I have tons of kids, but I get the feeling that a vast majority of the folks here are too young to have their own kids yet

I'm young - 33 - and also have tons of kids (6). They're my young permaculture disciples. What I do wouldn't be half as much fun without a 2-year-old on my back and a 7-year-old playing "plant ID" next to me while the others run about through the food-forest-in-progress. We homeschool and our gardening is a big part of their lives already. (Though our 2-year-old tends to pull young peas instead of weeds, upon occasion).

In fact, I just watched Paul's "outhouse" video earlier this afternoon with three of the kids. They were highly entertained by it. When I build our composting toilet out back, I know they're already keyed into why recycling waste is a good idea. We've talked a lot about not chucking away resources, including cardboard, kitchen scraps and even our own waste.

One thing I love about permaculture is its focus on making life nice for people and not just the proverbial "spotted owl." We've all got space here, provided we use it wisely.