gardening on Florida sand

I'm currently helping a friend get a garden started, it's a typical backyard scenario with a small number of beds.

The problem though is that soil in this situation is nonexistent, it was amended once or twice sometime before, but is currently pure sand and will not retain any water at all
We've since put down two inches of manure, followed by two inches of mulch. However, this has made it worse by acting like a sponge to soak up any water given, leaving the sand beneath completely dry at all times.

I dislike tilling, and tilling in mulch is not typical, but obviously the current is not working; so should we till in the manure & mulch?

Thanks.

Welcome to permies Mike
Can you be a bit more specific on the location? People in that area may be able to help.
I'm on pure sand, but my rainfall's high compared to many places, especially with the major US droughts...
Considering it's nearing the end of a dry(?) summer for you, the whole area is probably pretty parched, and I can't think of a realistic way to sort it out now.
Should it rain in autumn? I'd just keep chucking organic matter on the beds and let the rain do its thing. That's assuming you'll have rain, of course!
I also suggest checking out the hugelkultur threads. My beds are very new, so I can't vouch for them yet, but lots of people do! I've semi-buried my wood, rather than building it up: going up in sand has been a bad idea for me in the past.
If you can grow over winter, I'd think about getting a cover crop in after the rains(?) and chopping it down/mulching on top of it in early spring. My personal favourite is fava beans, but they need a coolish climate.

North Central Florida

The rain recently is sparse, but not drought conditions. Winter growing is possible here, I do it myself on my setup, and that's his intention too. He's trying to prepare the beds for planting in early September.
I should also note that the mulch is a medium grade hardwood.

It's a question of whether the manure & mulch should be tilled into the existing sand?

Thanks

Derek Mielke wrote:It's a question of whether the manure & mulch should be tilled into the existing sand?

I was kind of saying it, but in a really roundabout way
No. I would not till it in. Before I knew it was woodchip I would have said "'no", basically because that's my default position on tilling; now I say "definitely not!", because if you turn it under, the manure isn't likely to stand a chance against the high-carbon woodchips and there'll be significant nitrogen tie-up for ages until the soil bacteria balance things out again.
I can't say "do this thing, and the soil will be ok by September", because I think it probably won't be
I'm thinking it will probably take quite a bit of time and effort.
I use a lot of chipped tree mulch, but I recommend not using it on areas where it's likely to end up underground. As far as I know, It will not cause any nitrogen issues if undisturbed.
I had a feeling you were going to say "Florida". That appears to be a particularly challenging environment! There's people on permies from there who'll have localised advice.

I started out with sand. My area was all beach a million or so years ago. I dug my mulch in till worms began to show up. After that they took it down into the soil for me. My soil is currently a rich black, full of worms, and anything will grow in it. You may find that perfect drainage, such as you get with sandy subsoil means that organic fertilizer will need to be added more often since good drainage means more leaching of nutrients but if you continue adding mulch the organic matter will hold it in place longer.
One point, I'm not a purist. I do what seems needed at the time. Adhering strictly to a set of rules keeps you from using your sense of what is needed. When a crop comes out and I have a bare patch I till in some composted rabbit manure and the spent mulch. When I have a crop growing I mulch heavily around it to keep down weeds and break down into humus. Good gardening is a cycle, not a continuum.

Derek Mielke wrote:North Central Florida

The rain recently is sparse, but not drought conditions. Winter growing is possible here, I do it myself on my setup, and that's his intention too. He's trying to prepare the beds for planting in early September.
I should also note that the mulch is a medium grade hardwood.

It's a question of whether the manure & mulch should be tilled into the existing sand?

Thanks

You will often hear it said that wood mulch takes nitrogen out of the soil. Like so many garden questions there is no absolute answer to that. It takes up nitrogen in the early stages of decay but gives it back in the later stages. You might say it "borrows" it. It's a good idea to add nitrogen such as blood or cottonseed meal whenever you add fresh wood or other high celulose material.

I lived in GA for many years and know quite a few folks in N and Central FL who are permies and gardeners. Most of the really successful ones rely on mulch in prodigious quantities. Hooking up with an urban/suburban source of raked leaves, grass clippings, etc. is a valuable practice. Don't let any piece of paper or cardboard leave your site, rather import more. Using lots of manure and charging the whole with all the urine you can get will help deal with any nitrogen problem. People are starting to do biochar, too, look it up. A problem with sandy soils in hot climates is the organic matter simply disappears faster than it can be replenished....charring slows this process way down. I think biochar will be better even than hugelkultur in this regard...it is truly amazing how fast wood will rot in that climate.....
In the long term the moisture issue will solve itself....sooner or later it will rain and the mulch and manure will absorb and hold it longer than the unamended sand would. For ordinary vegetable crops you will probably need to irrigate somehow, some of the time at least.

I'm about 2 hours north of you, have the same sugar sand.

Tilling is ineffective and unproductive. The reasons for tilling: loosen soil, break up sod, blend in soil amendments. This sand does not compact-it stays loose in all conditions I've experienced. This soil does not produce sod with the indigenous grasses-dead grass leaves and roots are consumed within a season. Blending in soil amendments will occur as the materials breaks down, percolating through the soil with each rain.

I've been trying to grow in this stuff for 10 years. This is a quarzipsamment entisol soil. The sand goes all the way down to the limestone, with no soil horizon to slow the drainage. A sun directly overhead will dry out the soil surface to several inches, even with 99% humidity every day.

MULCH
Gotta have it. Exposed soil sand will be dry, dryer, driest. Deep: 3-4 inches in order to insulate the soil from the drying effects of the sun. A diverse blend of mulch is needed. Big stuff, little stuff, flat stuff, chunky...all of it. That high humidity provides a significant amount of moisture to the soil every day in the form of morning dew. In my experience, a diverse mulch blend helps the dew find a path to the soil better than a homogenous mulch. Wood chips are a fine start but don't stop there. Leaves, twigs and grass clippings have a place in there. Grass clippings have the surface area for the dew to collect. Wood chips and twigs hold much more moisture for their weight and dry out slower. Leaves are a wider barrier for escape.

IRRIGATION
What good is the mulch if it soaks up all the water before it can get to the soil? When you add water, it needs to get under the mulch. Drip systems and pitcher irrigation will do the job of putting the water exactly where it needs to be. An 8 inch terra cotta pot will service a 2' radius. Filled each day, it is about equal to 1/4" of rain per week. This is enough to keep your plants going until a good soaking rain gives them the boost they need.

RAISED BEDS
The big advantage of these is to provide drainage. This is not an issue in this soil. Unless you are filling your beds with imported soil, raised beds are a waste of time, effort, and energy.

ORGANICS
The constant humidity and warmth creates an environment in which compost/manure/leaf mold is consumed quickly. Before they are consumed, the fungi have a field day, releasing an abundance of nutrients. I find an inch or so added to the the top of the soil is enough to get a good crop. Rake aside the mulch, add the compost/manure/leaf mold to the surface of the soil, then replace the mulch. The organic layer does not need to be mixed with the soil. As it breaks down, the nutrients drain through along with the water. The first thing encountered are the plant roots, which readily absorb these nutrients.

Add Sea-90 or Redmond #10 Sea Salt. Read The Ideal Soil from www.soilminerals.com


Dave Rogers

Dig in lots of wood chips -- 50% chips down 8" or one shovel depth. And then just fertilize enough to get your plant's leaves green.

I did this in my clay soil with great results.

While I've never had the opportunity to test it in sandy soil, it should work. Wood will hold more moisture than sand and as it rots it holds even more water.

Dig in new chips every season until the soil is built up enough?

Here are pictures from my wood chip soil trial:
http://lowcostvegetablegarden.blogspot.com/2012/10/wood-chip-soil-pictures.html

Derek - I'm also in N. Central FL and have grown plenty of veggies in sand.

Here's the trick I found where I am: though it sounds counter-intuitive, the sand often remains dry beneath because it's not breathing. We double dug a spot and sprinkled in compost and grew plenty of stuff. Once the water gets beneath the surface, it does a lot better. Generally, when you water sand here the water runs all over the top and will often evaporate before sinking in. You have to make it sink in.

Then - once it's sinking in - get something green growing on top ASAP or cover with mulch to trap the water in.

Good luck.

I have pretty much nothing but sand and sandstone where I currently reside; south Oregon coast... One advantage we have, the ground is almost always "moist"...

That being said... What action to be taken can depend on how much effort and how much time... If you don't have much time in the way of "labor hours", but do have time to "wait" for results... Some suggestions: only concern yourself with the top 4~6 inches; which can all be added affair in the way of compost, mulch, etc... Plant a ground cover, such as a variety of white clover: their roots go pretty for down Then plant annuals that develop extensive roots, but are low consumers: such as buckwheat, various root crops and many others. Whether the plants are to be harvested for eating PF for "chop & drop", do not disturb the roots. The undisturbed roots will build and create soil, airways, aid water retention and naturally "till" the ground

P.S. take advantage of that wonderful resource you and I have nearby: the ocean! Incorporate sea "stuffs" into your compost and/or soil for wonderful trace minerals and key elements

A technique used many times in dry-farming in deserts or areas where the soil doesn't hold water well is sunken beds, or basin gardening. Here's a link about it.

For your particular conundrum, I would dig out the garden beds until they were 5-6" inches deeper than the paths, then fill the beds with compost. If you don't have access to that much compost, you could sheet mulch them with leaves, grass clippings, kitchen waste, manure, etc. right now and they should be ready to go in the spring. If you do sheet mulch them, however, the level of the finished mulched beds should be a few inches above the level you want the garden beds to end up, as the mulch will fall quite a bit as it composts. The amount of rainfall you receive would determine if you want your compost-filled beds to end up below the level of your paths, level with them, or slightly raised.

I know this is an old topic, but any advice on sprouting seeds in sand would be appreciated! I have a terrible time with beans, especially. My opinion is that with the sand , the dirt doesn't stay moist enough to sprout the seeds.
I asked the extension office and they suggested (other than soil amendments) sprouting seeds between paper towel. I tried that but not all of them survived being planted so hopefully there is a better way?
So far, I either start transplants or I make a shallow depression for the water to hopefully sink in for seeds. This works great for some things but others barely sprout. Since it is already a bit late for planting, I planted the rest of my beans, but I still have more peanuts if they don't sprout.
I cannot use wood chips or cardboard, but am trying to get mulch in the form of pine needles and oak leaves. Also I cannot spend any more money on the garden at the moment.

H Hardenberg wrote:I know this is an old topic, but any advice on sprouting seeds in sand would be appreciated! I have a terrible time with beans, especially. My opinion is that with the sand , the dirt doesn't stay moist enough to sprout the seeds.
I asked the extension office and they suggested (other than soil amendments) sprouting seeds between paper towel. I tried that but not all of them survived being planted so hopefully there is a better way?
So far, I either start transplants or I make a shallow depression for the water to hopefully sink in for seeds. This works great for some things but others barely sprout. Since it is already a bit late for planting, I planted the rest of my beans, but I still have more peanuts if they don't sprout.
I cannot use wood chips or cardboard, but am trying to get mulch in the form of pine needles and oak leaves. Also I cannot spend any more money on the garden at the moment.

There's no way to do this with food crops that aren't native, without some intensive infrastructure. This is just my opinion. Nothing seems to "volunteer" in the sand, except some very tropical peppers varieties. Even then, they were at a low point in the yard, if they were in most of the drier spots they wouldn't have mad it this far, I had two volunteers. Shade does a lot for keeping anything moist, at the expense of growth rate. Otherwise, there's no way to do this without transplanting.

I've read about creating your potting soil mixture, then digging out a 2 foot cylinder of sand, and filling the potting soil into that specific section. This way you don't have to cover the entire garden with proper soil, you can just fill the holes where you are putting the actual plants. I imagine the sand will act like "air pruning" does, once the roots hit the sand they'll probably prefer to dig deeper instead of outwards.

The biggest issue I have with my personal sand is the rampant nematodes. Almost all of my vegetables this year have been destroyed by root knot nematodes after solarizing it, already. I am about to give up in ground gardening here beyond fruit trees, not to mention the pests are terrible because every neighbor covers their yard in pesticides, so they kill the good bugs too.

It's far too much work and money for the time and opportunity cost it provides, I love it, but the only thing to do in sand is native gardening, and in Florid that's very limited for edibles, sand is a totally different aspect you have to account for besides your simple climate zone. Perhaps I am going to replace my entire garden by covering it with potted plants that I intend to sell or can grow in sterilized, nematode-free soil. However, this will greatly increase the cost per year of gardening as well, because the ground is already paid for.

David the Good had said, I believe for his mother, he made quite rich soil using piles of various organic materials, but after just a few years of neglect the heat just eats it up entirely. There was nothing left to show for besides sand. Florida heat is truly remarkable.

Jeff Steez wrote:

There's no way to do this with food crops that aren't native, without some intensive infrastructure. This is just my opinion. Nothing seems to "volunteer" in the sand, except some very tropical peppers varieties. Even then, they were at a low point in the yard, if they were in most of the drier spots they wouldn't have mad it this far, I had two volunteers. Shade does a lot for keeping anything moist, at the expense of growth rate. Otherwise, there's no way to do this without transplanting.

I've read about creating your potting soil mixture, then digging out a 2 foot cylinder of sand, and filling the potting soil into that specific section. This way you don't have to cover the entire garden with proper soil, you can just fill the holes where you are putting the actual plants. I imagine the sand will act like "air pruning" does, once the roots hit the sand they'll probably prefer to dig deeper instead of outwards.

The biggest issue I have with my personal sand is the rampant nematodes. Almost all of my vegetables this year have been destroyed by root knot nematodes after solarizing it, already. I am about to give up in ground gardening here beyond fruit trees, not to mention the pests are terrible because every neighbor covers their yard in pesticides, so they kill the good bugs too.

It's far too much work and money for the time and opportunity cost it provides, I love it, but the only thing to do in sand is native gardening, and in Florid that's very limited for edibles, sand is a totally different aspect you have to account for besides your simple climate zone. Perhaps I am going to replace my entire garden by covering it with potted plants that I intend to sell or can grow in sterilized, nematode-free soil. However, this will greatly increase the cost per year of gardening as well, because the ground is already paid for.

David the Good had said, I believe for his mother, he made quite rich soil using piles of various organic materials, but after just a few years of neglect the heat just eats it up entirely. There was nothing left to show for besides sand. Florida heat is truly remarkable.

I am sorry your sand is so bad! I dont think my sand is anywhere near as bad. I can get volunteer lettuce and cherry tomatoes.
David the Good is a great resource for gardening in Florida. I was about ready to give up but I found his YouTube videos and watched a bunch. There was (and is) a lot of basic stuff I don't know.
Ironically, my greatest success so far is the cover crop of black eyed peas. Beans. The very thing I cannot sprout if I want green beans.
Anyway, thanks to David the Good, I actually had a halfway decent garden last winter (compared at least to last year's dismal spring/summer) . I hope you find some way to success without spending a fortune . I also hate the standard solution of raised beds because it is so expensive and seems impractical for growing a lot of food. Maybe you can get chickens to eat the bugs.... But I don't have any yet so can't offer true advice. Best of luck!