A problem with Pyrethrums?

I have a bad case of cabbage moths and squash bugs. I'm trying some odd things this year for them (like Wasp condos for cabbage moth control! )

Then I thought of the insect controlling chemicals they make out of Pyrethrums, and bought seeds for two types of Painted Daisies, Tri-color and Robinson's.  I'm planning to interplant some with my brassicas and squash, but now I'm wondering if these are going to hurt my pollinators...

Should I plant them separate and just use them as a harvest crop to make a bug spray as needed, or is it safe to interplant them? And if it's safe to put them with food crops, what about with other flowers? Where is it safe to plant them?

Thank you for any input!
:D

they are pretty!

Bump!  My seeds will be here soon!

Won't the flowers of the daisies be pollinated by insects? In which case I'm guessing they will be pretty harmless. I'm sorry I don't know anything about Pyretheums.

Mexican Marigold and Chrysanthemum contain chemicals that do more than just repel insects, they are actual insecticides that kill bugs.

https://permies.com/t/172596/kitchen/Herbs-repel-Insects-bites-stings#1354380

I know that butterflies love the Mexican Marigold and as far as I know, that plant is recommended to be planted for Monarchs.

I have read that honey bees avoid the Pyretheums.

I've heard of the insect repellant and insecticide uses of these plants, but must confess I don't know much about them beyond that. I wonder if the repellant effect would keep the pollinators from getting close enough to be harmed? They've probably got quite the sense for such things. It sounds like the compound that is harmful decomposes pretty easily when exposed to sunlight. Perhaps that would lessen the danger too, if they don't just avoid them entirely? Also curious if it's a dose make the poison kind of thing?

Great question and I'll be curious to see what others have to say. Certainly wouldn't want to be planting anything that could inadvertently harm the pollinator friends!

Best of luck with those gnarly squash bugs and cabbage moths!

Wow! I was intrigued by your question and did a little googling myself. It's very confusing, as there seems to be little distinction between using the plant and using the plant based insecticide.

Amazingly painted daisy also show up on lists to attract pollinators. Which I find disturbing.

One article I found very conclusively blatantly stated pyrethrum in any state to be very bad for a vast number of insects and aquatic life..

With the conflicting information, and the potential to do harm to the good bugs, maybe other alternative should be embraced.

Best of luck

Here's a link that you may find interesting even though it is mostly addressing the pesticide and not the flower.

https://www.pesticide.org/pesticide_factsheets

Jonathan: Welcome to permies!
The conflicting information is why I figured I'd see who has grown them and what happened. I just can't tell. I got my seeds yesterday and am eyeing where to put them.

I'm really hoping the wasps will take out a lot of the cabbage moths, and I can't figure out who eats squash bugs to encourage them. I'm financially insecure, and need the food the bugs are taking out. The last two years they have been doing a 99.8% kill rate on my plants, despite many tricks. I'm running out of ideas.

Conflicting information is one thing the internet is good at!

My guess is that the insecticide is from an extract, and though some insects are sensitive enough to avoid the plant others enjoy its nectar and pollen. And the toxic substances may not be present in significant amounts in the flowers.  What part of the plant do you harvest, in what stage of growth, and what time of year?  The compounds may only be present at certain stages of the plant’s life.

The size of the flowers (the rays and discs) are small, which is exactly what feed the parasitic wasps.  I’ve seen painted daisies growing in mixed plantings where insects are hanging around.

It’s just my opinion, but I think painted daisies in a mixed planting would provide for increased diversity and stability.

Good idea to plant some additional  members of the sunflower family, and other plants with tiny flowers .  One phase of the life cycle of parasitic wasps depends on nectar from such flowers, another phase is when the female lays an egg in the caterpillar… from which the caterpillar does not survive to the next stage.

A little off the topic of painted daisy, but mentioned in the original post…  As for the squash bugs, I was told by an organic fanatic that they overwinter in loose mulch, and woodchips, just my favorite kind of thing!  Also any loose top layer, including soil that isn’t like concrete.

What he said to do was grow the squash plants off the surface, in a 15 gallon pot type of thing, or cover the surface of the soil with black plastic.  And use new “soil” and plastic every year.  

Not my style at all, I am more a “live roots in the soil, let not the surface of the soil be exposed to direct sun, living mulch” style gardener.

I’ve spent many an hour hand picking squash bugs and their eggs.  When it gets later in the season, I can’t keep up.  I think poly culture practices help, maybe no till and low till might help.  Maybe they like some soil situations better than others…

I am not growing food at my place this year, because I will be moving this season, but two ideas come to mind.
1 Grow a LOT of painted daisies, harvest when pyrethrin content is highest, put all of it onto a few spots designated for next year’s squash.

2 put a LOT of DE under the plant, and where the stem comes out of the ground.

I would like to offer up alternatives to painted daisies in achieving your goal....
Bt works very well on cabbage moth caterpillars without jeopardizing pollinators. In combination with row covers at planting, you could increase you harvests. Another possibility I have read here on permies is to concentrate your plantings of brassicas to very early spring and mid-late fall, when cabbage moths/caterpillars are not present.

You haven't stated what kind of squash you intend to plant, but I am assuming that it would be a winter storage variety. I have found over the last 2 years that the "Tahitian melon squash" which is basically a butternut on steroids, has survived squash bugs and given me a crop. I will be trialing these squash again this year to see if these observations hold true. I got my original seed from Baker Creek.

Hopefully some of these alternatives can be utilized until you can get a definitive answer about the painted daisies.

Jonathan, do insects develop resistance to BT?

Is it broad spectrum, or does it only kill animals that ingest it?  I don’t know much about it.

One consideration is, to keep a healthy insect community, you need predators (parasitic wasps) as well as prey (cabbage loopers).

Your squash recommendation sounds wonderful!

I debated Bt. Dunno. The more I read, the less I liked.
It came down to time to either buy Bt or something else, I picked these seeds.

I've also improved the soil a lot since last year, to make the plants stronger, but the mulch is the only way I can improve this soil, I can't remove it. I DID turn the top layers down deep in Feb or so, and put fresh on top, hoping I suffocated a few bugs. And putting squash in a pot would just mean it dies in my world. Wouldn't stand a chance :D

Did row covers last year, all it did was keep the wasps out when they wanted to kill caterpillars. The moths managed to get babies in there, not sure how. and it was a royal PITA, as I don't plant in "rows."

I hand killed massive amounts of squash bugs, but I can't keep up on it, don't have the energy or the health to do that. I killed all I could catch!  Which was many thousands.
There has to be a better way.
Thus the flowers.
:D

*pyrethrum  

The pyrethrum family of plants protects itself from chewing insects and lava with a compound which makes them sick.  Naturally it does not express this compound in a way that harms it's pollinators. Mother Earth instructions=One of the oldest pesticides known, pyrethrum is also the strongest insecticide allowed under National Organic Standards guidelines. Made from the dried flowers of a little white daisy now classified as Tanacetum cinerariifolium, pyrethrum insecticides are known for their fast knock-down of unwanted insects. Insects typically become paralyzed as soon as they come into contact with pyrethrum, so it’s often used in wasp sprays. Pyrethrum use in the garden should be undertaken with care and only after cultural methods that might manage a pest have been exhausted. Pyrethrum insecticides are highly toxic to bees, wasps and other beneficial insects, as well as to fish.

Apparently the compounds in the flowers becomes a contact and respiratory insecticide in the process of  drying and extracting it.

Science studies are mostly very narrow and studying alcohol extracts from the roots for toxicity or medicinal effects.

Safety studies are mostly how many humans or rats were adversely affected.

So if little white butterflies are not repelled by the presence of the companion plants their progeny die when doused with the extract from those plants. Be a pemies scientist and record the results of your observations here.

Hans Quistorff wrote:The pyrethrum family of plants protects itself from chewing insects and larva with a compound which makes them sick.  Naturally it does not express this compound in a way that harms it's pollinators.

That was my guess.  :D  

Made from the dried flowers of a little white daisy now classified as Tanacetum cinerariifolium,

The type I bought are Tanacetum coccineum
Painted Daisy: Tanacetum coccineum subsp. coccineum  Other Common Names: Persian Insect Flower, Pyrethrum, Pyrethrum Daisy
They aren't the ones used commercially, they are prettier :D

Thank you for the info :D
I'm starting the seeds in a day or two.

Hi neighbor, I'm also in SW Missouri. Every year the squash bugs are horrendous! A friend told me about using the Blue Hubbard squash as a trap crop, also mentioned above in a link, so I'll be doing that this year. Can't report on its efficacy but it was highly touted as an excellent remedy.

I have a roll of duct tape in my garden bag that I use to remove eggs. Roll a piece sticky side out around your fingers, then press it against the egg cluster to remove them. Might take a couple of times to get all.  Just rotate the tape to get fresh sticky. Replace as needed.  This is a fast and easy method that doesn't damage the leaves as much as other methods. It is also refreshingly satisfying to destroy all those eggs on the duct tape once you're done.  

A couple weeks ago, I turned loose my chickens into the grow beds in hopes that they will reduce the egg population. Won't know how effective this was until later. Also, I use netting to cover all the vulnerable crops, like cruciferous and curcubits.  I hand pollinate and also remove the netting on occasion.

An old remedy is to wrap the stem of curcubits in foil just below and above the soil line so the borers can't penetrate the stem. You'll need to do this early. I'll try this as well.

Also read that the stem of the infected squash can be cut and the vine borer destroyed.  Make a parallel cut on the stem where the vine borer is and destroy it, then press the stem above the cut into the ground and cover it with dirt. It will, reportedly, re-root and the plant will be happy and continue to grow.

All of these methods are hypothetical for me at the moment. They will be put into practice this year, for sure.  Good luck with your garden war!!

I’ve used BT and BTI before with the intended effect on cabbage loopers and mosquitos/biting flies respectively. My understanding is that Baccillus Thurengensis (sp?) (insert subspecies), are cultured naturally occurring bacteria that infect the larva of their target species. This seems far safer for other genus/family/kingdom of life than chemically based insecticides (organic or not). My main concern is in its effect on the food web and those predators of our pests, as they are our long term passive pest control.

I’d grow daisies for biodiversity and beauty in a polyculture, but would not expect them to have the insecticidal effect hoped for. Many permaculturalists like Sepp Holzer suggest having naturally “poisonous”plants around for animals to use as “medicine”, (the difference between poison and medicine is often dosage) which has been shown to work with livestock self-deworming on diverse pasture.

I accidentally hit submit…

I’d also look into Chitinase (sp?), which seems similar in its derivation and effect to BT, but can be used for many other insects. As I understand it, both BT and chitinase come from the culture of naturally occurring microbes (or their bi-product of the enzyme chitinase, which breaks down chitin that forms insect's exoskeleton) on an ager of carcasses of the insect intended to be controlled. I am not sure if or how chitinase is really different than the old time bug-juice spray, wherein the problem insect is collect, blended, let stew, and sprayed on crops needing protection. It seems like the problem with these techniques would come with large scale and indiscriminate use.

I read an article about some scientific research into bee colony collapse and their problems with parasitic mites. The researchers suggest that having flowers with pyrethrum nearby is actually good for the bees, as they take enough nectar/pollen to give themselves a low dose of pyrethrum which helps them keep free of the mites. Most insects won't poison themselves with natural source insecticide chemicals. If they take a very little and it harms them, they will then avoid it- which is why the plant makes it.