Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Bless your Family,
Mike
Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner
At my age, Happy Hour is a nap.
At my age, Happy Hour is a nap.
Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Anne Miller wrote:James, are all your trees black walnut?
I was assuming that you had other trees when I suggested finding leaf mold. I had seen that you know the potential problem with those trees. So I was suggesting looking in the shade for other kinds of trees.
If you find some leaf mold I would not waste it on those piles as it is too precious. I would put in with already finished compost directly into your raised beds and hugelkulturs.
I understand your concern as at one time I was under the impression that Cedar was a problem so we avoid getting leaf mold from near cedar trees. My trees are all Cedar and Oak.
John F Dean wrote:Give a good deal of thought to those walnuts trees. I realize that garden wise they can be a pain, but they also might have significant value in their own right.
Cole Tyler wrote:I do not know the answers to a lot of your questions, but your efforts sound like you will find a way!
I would think allowing a good portion of underbrush/branches from deciduous trees to be the "bottom" of your raised beds could aid in taking up space to start getting things up and away from rock, and adding a hugelkulture effect over time. Also collecting leaves/trimmings from those same trees to mix into the compost, and use as a mulch to offset all the pine. I'm not sure if there is more benefit from the burnt ash or the natural degrading of those materials??
Also, have you checked with your neighbor about any herbicides, antibiotics, etc they use on the horses or in the fields they feed from, or the feed itself? It is known that these things can pass thru to the manure and have a negative impact on soil/gardens for some time, even a couple years. I can't remember the name of the broad-leaf herbicide that was present in some manure a local veggie farmer I know got from the horse race track, but it stunted and killed some of her plants.
Anne Miller wrote:What you are doing sounds great though I would suggest making more smaller piles.
I would also like to suggest that you look on your land for leaf mold to put in these raised beds.
Leaf mold is found in the shade under trees. Scrape away the leaves and you will find a layer of dark earth. This is where mother nature does her composting.
Here is a thread about how you can use those leaves you scraped away to find the leaf mold:
https://permies.com/t/152261/Fall-Leaves
Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
A very experienced permie described using a piece of 1/2 inch (maybe 3/4") PVC pipe flattened at one end and an air compressor with a blower nozzle pushed in the other end. He pushes the pipe into the compost pile, and triggers the blower nozzle. Move the pipe to another part of the pile and repeats. Pile is aerated! I so want to try his technique, but my composts are too far from an adequate power source to do so. We don't have one of the ones that work from a car's battery and I'm not sure they'd generate sufficient air volume and pressure to do the job, but I could look for more info if you are interested. I recall I made notes somewhere...Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.
Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
Jay Angler wrote:Another thing to consider is to do trench biochar production with the stuff you're burning, rather than just creating ash.
Biochar help sequester carbon and support your microbes. I've not done the trench version - just the pot in the wood-stove version - but there is plenty of info out there on doing it. Here's the link to permies forum: https://permies.com/f/190/biochar
Jay Angler wrote:James Hird wrote:
A very experienced permie described using a piece of 1/2 inch (maybe 3/4") PVC pipe flattened at one end and an air compressor with a blower nozzle pushed in the other end. He pushes the pipe into the compost pile, and triggers the blower nozzle. Move the pipe to another part of the pile and repeats. Pile is aerated! I so want to try his technique, but my composts are too far from an adequate power source to do so. We don't have one of the ones that work from a car's battery and I'm not sure they'd generate sufficient air volume and pressure to do the job, but I could look for more info if you are interested. I recall I made notes somewhere...Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.
Also, lots of really good info on soil health and soil building can be found in Dr Redhawk's excellent series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
Jay Angler wrote:Of all the walnuts, Black Walnut is definitely worth being wary of. So is cedar, as most growies don't like it either - it not just the pH either.
That said, I live in a cedar forest and it does decompose and plants will grow in its vicinity. Factors that I feel affect this:
1. It's our natural ecosystem and my soil hasn't been abused, so the microbes/decomposers plants need to cope with a cedar-rich environment are all around me.
2. We get a *lot* of rainfall at certain times of the year - this helps to leach any of the allopathic chemicals out of the surface of the soil - the raised beds will help.
Permaculture - the problem is the solution! Congratulations on figuring out that the best way to make your raised beds is out of rocks. There are threads on permies about dry-stacked walls, but here are two about a raised bed configuration that could be useful while building soil:
https://permies.com/t/12429/Interesting-keyhole-hugelkultur-design
https://permies.com/t/68883/permaculture-projects/keyhole-garden-summer-drought
The second thread are experiments done by r ranson and myself in our droughty summer ecosystem. We both found that to work well, they needed some water added to the compost tube - ideally poopy chicken/duck water! That is part of the original concept. I put a *lot* of punky wood at the bottom of mine, and about a foot of soil/compost at the top.
Does your neighbor with all the horse manure have broad leaf weeds volunteering on top of those piles? Try planting a few squash seeds in it and if the leaves look weirdly curled and the plants fail to thrive, quarantine any of that manure you've already got - it will grow grass just fine, and microbes/mushroom spawn will hopefully break it down eventually, but it is *very* long lasting. I got a single bad batch from a friend who's usually very trustworthy, and it still doesn't grow weeds like the rest of my land does and it's been over 5 years.
If the horses are getting most of the "feed" from the organic pasture, that's good news. The hay is definitely the issue. Many "professional" hay fields are treated with broad-leaf "cides" that are extremely persistent in the hay produced, and travel right through the horse's gut. If the hay being used as feed is locally sourced from farmers who believe that a few broad-leaf "weeds" don't harm the hay, again, thank your lucky stars.They feed them hay from the local feed store
Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
Jay Angler wrote:James Hird wrote:
If the horses are getting most of the "feed" from the organic pasture, that's good news. The hay is definitely the issue. Many "professional" hay fields are treated with broad-leaf "cides" that are extremely persistent in the hay produced, and travel right through the horse's gut. If the hay being used as feed is locally sourced from farmers who believe that a few broad-leaf "weeds" don't harm the hay, again, thank your lucky stars.They feed them hay from the local feed store
What I would do: 1. I'd ask the feed store if they buy from local farmers.
2. If the answer is yes, you might also get some idea if they are "weed-friendly" farmers.
3. If the hay isn't too expensive, you could buy a bale and start a "hay bale mini-garden" - there are plenty of instructions on the web for getting one growing. If the hay bale will grow beans or zucchini, that look healthy - or since it's early for them, you could even try lettuce - direct seeded into the bale - that's ideal. If you get some fresh veggies out of this experiment, you haven't lost anything!
Some of the gick is nastier and longer lasting that other possibilities. I've only once had a problem, but there are absolutely reports of people ruining their gardens due to one bad lot. Organic is the safe way to go if you can get it: learning to live with, appreciate, and even enjoy "weeds" is something I've learned over the last 20 years! Hubby did a double take when he found out that I transplanted a few dandelions that were in spots I didn't want them... but the chickens thought it was darn kind of me!
James Hird wrote:Hopefully by next year we'll have our own chickens and there manure can enrich the mulch.
Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
How permies.com works: https://permies.com/wiki/34193/permies-works-links-threads
James Hird wrote:
Jay Angler wrote:James Hird wrote:
A very experienced permie described using a piece of 1/2 inch (maybe 3/4") PVC pipe flattened at one end and an air compressor with a blower nozzle pushed in the other end. He pushes the pipe into the compost pile, and triggers the blower nozzle. Move the pipe to another part of the pile and repeats. Pile is aerated! I so want to try his technique, but my composts are too far from an adequate power source to do so. We don't have one of the ones that work from a car's battery and I'm not sure they'd generate sufficient air volume and pressure to do the job, but I could look for more info if you are interested. I recall I made notes somewhere...Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.
Also, lots of really good info on soil health and soil building can be found in Dr Redhawk's excellent series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
This sounds genius. I guess it disrupts the soil composition less too not needing to turn it.
All you would need to do is pressurize the air compressor and take it over to the piles. When there is no more pressure in the tank go and plug it in again and repressurize it.
This might have saved me hours of digging. I'm going to give it a go
This is all just my opinion based on a flawed memory
James Hird wrote: And the pile of rocks cleared just off the surface of the acre. Good to build with but not for gardening. My raised beds are going to be build with the stone
When in doubt, doubt the doubt.
Ben Zumeta wrote:
James Hird wrote:
Jay Angler wrote:James Hird wrote:
A very experienced permie described using a piece of 1/2 inch (maybe 3/4") PVC pipe flattened at one end and an air compressor with a blower nozzle pushed in the other end. He pushes the pipe into the compost pile, and triggers the blower nozzle. Move the pipe to another part of the pile and repeats. Pile is aerated! I so want to try his technique, but my composts are too far from an adequate power source to do so. We don't have one of the ones that work from a car's battery and I'm not sure they'd generate sufficient air volume and pressure to do the job, but I could look for more info if you are interested. I recall I made notes somewhere...Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.
Also, lots of really good info on soil health and soil building can be found in Dr Redhawk's excellent series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
This sounds genius. I guess it disrupts the soil composition less too not needing to turn it.
All you would need to do is pressurize the air compressor and take it over to the piles. When there is no more pressure in the tank go and plug it in again and repressurize it.
This might have saved me hours of digging. I'm going to give it a go
I use 4" perforated corrugated drain-tile pipe as a chimney rising out of the middle of my compost piles. The exposed black pipe heats the top of the air column and creates a passive thermo-syphon pulling air through the pile. I attach the chimney to a T and another perforated pipe at the bottom of the pile for drainage, and to get air to the bottom of the pile.
Michael Fundaro wrote:
James Hird wrote: And the pile of rocks cleared just off the surface of the acre. Good to build with but not for gardening. My raised beds are going to be build with the stone
Raised beds made of your abundant stones will save on costs and will last a long time since the stones wont rot like wood eventually will, but keep in mind they will absorb heat from the sun and dry out the dirt next to them. If you keep the beds watered sufficiently it wont be a big problem but keep that in mind when planting things near the edge.
PS: I thought I had a lot of rocks on my property. Mine are mostly baseball or softball size, but still have more than enough of the bigger ones. And, I did finally give in and use the last big batch I cleared to make a raised bed. There are only so many other places to hid them. Which reminds me, they work great for gabion fences and posts if you are interested.
http://www.aggregateflyer.com/public_source/img/portfolio/gabion.png
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/e3/11/1be3119a331cbdefcf81ca103037eebc.jpg
Jay Angler wrote:Of all the walnuts, Black Walnut is definitely worth being wary of. So is cedar, as most growies don't like it either - it not just the pH either.
That said, I live in a cedar forest and it does decompose and plants will grow in its vicinity. Factors that I feel affect this:
1. It's our natural ecosystem and my soil hasn't been abused, so the microbes/decomposers plants need to cope with a cedar-rich environment are all around me.
2. We get a *lot* of rainfall at certain times of the year - this helps to leach any of the allopathic chemicals out of the surface of the soil - the raised beds will help.
Permaculture - the problem is the solution! Congratulations on figuring out that the best way to make your raised beds is out of rocks. There are threads on permies about dry-stacked walls, but here are two about a raised bed configuration that could be useful while building soil:
https://permies.com/t/12429/Interesting-keyhole-hugelkultur-design
https://permies.com/t/68883/permaculture-projects/keyhole-garden-summer-drought
The second thread are experiments done by r ranson and myself in our droughty summer ecosystem. We both found that to work well, they needed some water added to the compost tube - ideally poopy chicken/duck water! That is part of the original concept. I put a *lot* of punky wood at the bottom of mine, and about a foot of soil/compost at the top.
Does your neighbor with all the horse manure have broad leaf weeds volunteering on top of those piles? Try planting a few squash seeds in it and if the leaves look weirdly curled and the plants fail to thrive, quarantine any of that manure you've already got - it will grow grass just fine, and microbes/mushroom spawn will hopefully break it down eventually, but it is *very* long lasting. I got a single bad batch from a friend who's usually very trustworthy, and it still doesn't grow weeds like the rest of my land does and it's been over 5 years.
Christopher Shimanski wrote:You've got plenty of soil there. Here's a few things I'd consider:
*Lay out your wood chips and manure in the bed formation right away. Let it compost where it's going to be. You'll get the added benefit of letting the soil organisms help from below as well.
*Get going on some non-raised bed cropping areas too. I'd try getting a cover crop of barley, 4010 field peas, forage collards, and an annual clover going. Those easily germinate (peas could be tough) when surface broadcasted with a little rain. Then spread a thin layer of manure over the top of those seeds to act as both a light mulch and some fertility.
*Focus this spot on growing standing carbon (straw) first. As you draw closer to fall, plant it with a 2 bushel/acre rate of winter rye. Then let that winter rye go all the way to maturity the following year. You'll have so much straw that it'll be its own mulch for a fall crop. Rye is extremely resilient and the straw will make you soil and keep your plants alive in adverse conditions.
*Focus on building up soil first. Worry about food after you get a solid layer of rye straw on top of the ground.
*Search the landscape for medium life carbons like canary grass, cattails, lawn clippings, warm season grass fields, abandoned round bails etc. Free carbon is everywhere, just go find it and bring it home.
Casie Becker wrote:We have what is known as rocky mountain cedar here. Like your eastern red cedar this is a form of juniper. Yes, they can interfer with the growth of some plants. (I remember tomatoes particularly). It is not a long lasting problem, nor does it effect every family of plants. Doing a fast search for plants that grow under juniper turns up a lot color suggestions, but this link https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fallsgarden.com/juniper-companion-plants/&ved=2ahUKEwjW-cvlvaT3AhVjcDwKHXsoBxcQFnoECFoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0BRLpMvWQKGwX0Q1chVaJR (sorry it's so long) which lists a far more extensive list. I see a lot of things in the same family as onions. There's also the suggestion of morning glories which sweet potatoes are very closely related to. This article seems more focused on the landscaping potential of the juniper but it may be good starting point for choosing early crops for those beds.
Around my area where wildfires are getting bigger and more frequent, people are being advised to avoid planting "juniper".Like your eastern red cedar this is a form of juniper.
Junipers are among the least fire-resistant plants you can use in your landscape, according to the Pacific Northwest Extension. Junipers have lacy, evergreen foliage which burns quickly because of its texture. They also contain flammable volatile oils, identifiable by their strong odor and sticky sap.
Visit Redhawk's soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
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Jay Angler wrote:Cassie Becker wrote:
Around my area where wildfires are getting bigger and more frequent, people are being advised to avoid planting "juniper".Like your eastern red cedar this is a form of juniper.
From the interweb:
Junipers are among the least fire-resistant plants you can use in your landscape, according to the Pacific Northwest Extension. Junipers have lacy, evergreen foliage which burns quickly because of its texture. They also contain flammable volatile oils, identifiable by their strong odor and sticky sap.
Cassie, have you any idea whether the eastern red cedar has similar risks associated with it?
James, have you any idea how great the wildfire risk is on your land?
I do know that planting deciduous trees lowers the risks, and there are certainly understory plants that resist fire better than others - not to mention rocky fire breaks!
You have to work with what you have. Chipping and burning residue before hot dry weather decreases fire risk. Composting those chips so they keep the soil moist decreases those risks. Building homes and outbuilding in ways to lower the odds of them burning is always a good thing. But knowing a risk exists and evaluating its probability is generally a good first step!
In The Suburban Micro-Farm, Modern Solutions for Busy People, Amy Stross points out that walnuts are nutrient accumulators of potassium and phosphorous, making the walnut a treasure in a permaculture garden.
“The nutrients accumulate in the leaves, which will also have accumulated juglone. As the leaves fall, they will fertilize the ground of the juglone-tolerant plants, saving time and money.” (p. 260).
Instead of just planting walnut trees, Stross, encourages her readers to plant a “Walnut guild”, a symbiotic grouping of plants that enhance the growth of each other through fertilization, pest control, light and water needs, and root development.
The walnut guild includes small trees, shrubs, and low herbs that are juglone tolerant. As the central walnut tree grows and its shade prevails, some of the guild plantings will die out. Other plants will thrive from the increase in phosphorous and potassium from the dropped leaves. This is the expected succession.
the awesome Green Dean from Eat the Weeds wrote:Our next two blossoms are in the same genus, Erythronium. The White Trout Lily is E. albidum and the Yellow Adder’s Tongue is E. americanum. First the White Trout Lily: Flower stalks, flowers, buds and the white bell-shaped flowers can be eaten raw or cooked. The young leaves are edible raw as well. They are crisp, tender, and tasty. However, the plant only has two leaves so if you are going to harvest them harvest only one leaf per plant. The bulbs are also edible after boiling. They are considered delicious. However, in large amount they can be emetic so consume within reason.
The Yellow Adder’s Tongue is slightly different. Like its relative its flower stalk, flower buds, and flowers are edible raw or cooked. The leaves can be eaten raw, such as in salads. Again, the plant only has two leaves so harvest responsibly. E. americanum bulbs can be eaten raw or cooked. They are crisp and chewy. However again, consume sparingly as they can be emetic. A third Erythronium, the European E. dens-canis, the Dog’s Tooth Violet, also has edible cooked roots. It is also the source of starch use to make pasta-like noodles or cakes. Leaves are eaten boiled. Don’t let the common name of the E. dens-canis — Dog’s Tooth Violet — confuse you regarding violets. Violets are in the genus Violas. Violas do not have edible roots.
Be joyful, though you have considered all the facts. ~Wendell Berry
Skyler said, "Don't worry about using cedar or pine needles or wood chips. There's no good evidence for it severely decreasing PH or having chemical allelopathy.
Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner
James Hird wrote:
Good info, thanks.
I'll have to wait for my wife to join me in a couple of weeks to decide the layout of the raised beds. I'll do as you suggested though, start the hugalkulture beds as soon as possible and build the walls around them in the fall when I've got time. I can always top the beds up then.
In regards to the cropping, I do like this idea but it will have to wait for now.
Our land is fully forested and I've only cleared an acre at the moment. All of the space in this acre is or will be used. In the next couple of years I will be clearing an acre or two more and this will be used for pasture and crops (what ever I can get to grow in rockie soil)
What ever gets cleared will be mulched or burnt and added to the compost piles.
Building soil is my main priority. There is no garden without it. I think I need to add more deciduous mulch to my piles. I only recently discovered eastern red cedar isn't great for mulch and it's about half of the wood I've added. Fortunately I've got a medium sized oak and a couple winged elms I need to process so that will be getting added
When in doubt, doubt the doubt.
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