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Starting from scratch on rocky, bouldery ground. Your thoughts on what I'm doing

 
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My wife and I just bought 6 acres of Forrest in South East Oklahoma and are starting a homestead.
The ground is rocky, boulders ranging in size from your fist to a small car. There is also black walnut throughout the property.
To get around both of these issues we're going to do raised beds.
I've cleared an acre to begin with. We're using most of the lumber for building but I've chipped the top branches. Excluding the black Walnut.

We're on an extreme budget so bringing in soil isn't an option so I'm trying to build our own.

Here's what I'm doing.

Our neighbor has horses and has huge piles of manure so I'm mixing the wood chips and the manure at a ratio of 50/50. The wood chips are a mix of eastern red cedar and pine.
I'm also adding lots of wood ash from all the undergrowth and deciduous trees I've being burning.

I have being turning the piles on a weekly basis to promote aerobic decomposition but the piles are getting too big to turn by hand now so I'm thinking of aborting that idea and making a mega pile and just leaving it be.
At the moment I've got 5 piles about 6ft in diameter at the bottom, 4ft high.
We're planning on building the raised beds this summer. Filling them hugalkulture style late fall and starting to grow next spring.

We've also got a side compost pile going that we are adding our food scraps to. That's the same mixture of wood chips, horse manure and wood ash, it's just getting the added scraps and will be turned every week.

Thoughts on what I'm doing right and wrong would be greatly appreciated.

Will I have soil that I can grow in by next season if I leave the piles as the are?
Will I compensate for the acidity of the pine and cedar by adding lots of wood ash or is that irrelevant because it will have composted by then?
Does anyone have experience growing in black walnut heavy areas.? Is building raised beds and cutting down any walnuts within 50ft of the growing area enough?

Thanks in advance


 
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I do not know the answers to a lot of your questions, but your efforts sound like you will find a way!

I would think allowing a good portion of underbrush/branches from deciduous trees to be the "bottom" of your raised beds could aid in taking up space to start getting things up and away from rock, and adding a hugelkulture effect over time. Also collecting leaves/trimmings from those same trees to mix into the compost, and use as a mulch to offset all the pine. I'm not sure if there is more benefit from the burnt ash or the natural degrading of those materials??

Also, have you checked with your neighbor about any herbicides, antibiotics, etc they use on the horses or in the fields they feed from, or the feed itself? It is known that these things can pass thru to the manure and have a negative impact on soil/gardens for some time, even a couple years. I can't remember the name of the broad-leaf herbicide that was present in some manure a local veggie farmer I know got from the horse race track, but it stunted and killed some of her plants.





 
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What you are doing sounds great though I would suggest making more smaller piles.

I would also like to suggest that you look on your land for leaf mold to put in these raised beds.

Leaf mold is found in the shade under trees.  Scrape away the leaves and you will find a layer of dark earth.  This is where mother nature does her composting.

Here is a thread about how you can use those leaves you scraped away to find the leaf mold:

https://permies.com/t/152261/Fall-Leaves
 
pioneer
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adding a hugelkulture, dig a hole and save soil, drop logs in and cover with soil saved.

Then get any garbage can and load up with grass, your compost, drill 3 1 inch holes in bottom of garbage cans and park in sun.  This will make compost in summer.  (and winter, slower).

Look into 'going back to Eden' with using wood chips.   I am lucky here, I can get unlimited wood chips from the phone companies tree trimming, cut downs.
 
Anne Miller
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While it is not necessary to use Paul Gautschi's Back To Eden Garden method to use woodchips, I thought you might want to learn more about the Back to Eden method:

https://permies.com/t/18026/Eden-Garden

https://permies.com/t/36305/Eden

Here is a thread about Chip Drop:

https://permies.com/t/39157/ChipDrop-site-sign-delivery-free

These will explain why everyone loves wood chips:

https://permies.com/t/120453/Great-Wood-Chips

https://permies.com/t/137179/Wood-chips-working

Welcome to the forum and best wishes for your new land!



 
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Hi James,

Welcome to Permies.
 
John F Dean
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Give a good deal of thought to those walnuts trees.   I realize that garden wise they can be a pain, but they also might have significant value in their own right.
 
James Hird
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I would love to add leaf mould to the piles, I've being reading about how beneficial it is. My concern is that I would be inadvertently adding black walnut leaves, small branches an hulls to the compost. The juglone in them could stunt or even kill tomatoes, peppers etc. I have read that when composted the juglone leaches out but I'm not willing to take that risk just yet.
In the future I'll be experimenting with this, creating side piles of compost with the Forrest floor scrapings and testing with tomato seeds.

The same goes for the deciduous branches I've cleared. Being new to the area and clearing in the winter I was worried about adding black walnut to the compost. Now I'm more familiar with the native trees in Oklahoma I'll be using the oak, elm and others in the hugalkulture beds and mulch.

I may be overreacting but about 1/4 of the trees on the property are black walnut ranging in size from saplings to 16inch diameter trees. The Forrest floor is littered with walnut shells

I've read mixed reviews about it, from horror stories to after a couple months composting and it's fine. I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in-between so I'll definitely post my findings.
 
James Hird
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Photos of my compost piles with an ash pile from a recent big fire in the for ground.

The stack of logs I'll be using in the bottom of my beds

And the pile of rocks cleared just off the surface of the acre. Good to build with but not for gardening. My raised beds are going to be build with the stone
IMG_20220419_092137_516.jpg
 pile of rocks cleared just off the surface of the acre
IMG_20220419_092047_993.jpg
The stack of logs I'll be using in the bottom of my beds
IMG_20220419_092028_306.jpg
my compost piles with an ash pile from a recent big fire
 
Anne Miller
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James, are all your trees black walnut?

I was assuming that you had other trees when I suggested finding leaf mold.  I had seen that you know the potential problem with those trees.  So I was suggesting looking in the shade for other kinds of trees.

If you find some leaf mold I would not waste it on those piles as it is too precious.  I would put in with already finished compost directly into your raised beds and hugelkulturs.

I understand your concern as at one time I was under the impression that Cedar was a problem so we avoid getting leaf mold from near cedar trees.  My trees are all Cedar and Oak.

 
James Hird
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About a quarter of the trees are black walnut and they are scattered around randomly. Id say within any 10ft square on the property you will find at least one walnut shell. The wind blows the leaves around and the critters scatter the nut shells.

Anne Miller wrote:James, are all your trees black walnut?

I was assuming that you had other trees when I suggested finding leaf mold.  I had seen that you know the potential problem with those trees.  So I was suggesting looking in the shade for other kinds of trees.

If you find some leaf mold I would not waste it on those piles as it is too precious.  I would put in with already finished compost directly into your raised beds and hugelkulturs.

I understand your concern as at one time I was under the impression that Cedar was a problem so we avoid getting leaf mold from near cedar trees.  My trees are all Cedar and Oak.

 
James Hird
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John F Dean wrote:Give a good deal of thought to those walnuts trees.   I realize that garden wise they can be a pain, but they also might have significant value in their own right.



Indeed.

And the nuts have anti parasitic property's too so letting the pigs out under the trees after the nuts the fallen will fatten them up and give them a cleanse
 
James Hird
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Cole Tyler wrote:I do not know the answers to a lot of your questions, but your efforts sound like you will find a way!

I would think allowing a good portion of underbrush/branches from deciduous trees to be the "bottom" of your raised beds could aid in taking up space to start getting things up and away from rock, and adding a hugelkulture effect over time. Also collecting leaves/trimmings from those same trees to mix into the compost, and use as a mulch to offset all the pine. I'm not sure if there is more benefit from the burnt ash or the natural degrading of those materials??

Also, have you checked with your neighbor about any herbicides, antibiotics, etc they use on the horses or in the fields they feed from, or the feed itself? It is known that these things can pass thru to the manure and have a negative impact on soil/gardens for some time, even a couple years. I can't remember the name of the broad-leaf herbicide that was present in some manure a local veggie farmer I know got from the horse race track, but it stunted and killed some of her plants.







Yes, someone I follow on YouTube made this mistake and it was quite a setback in there garden.

The pasture is clean, it's just nextdoor. The neighbor uses the manure in her garden too. She just an excess so is willing to share the wealth
 
James Hird
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Anne Miller wrote:What you are doing sounds great though I would suggest making more smaller piles.

I would also like to suggest that you look on your land for leaf mold to put in these raised beds.

Leaf mold is found in the shade under trees.  Scrape away the leaves and you will find a layer of dark earth.  This is where mother nature does her composting.

Here is a thread about how you can use those leaves you scraped away to find the leaf mold:

https://permies.com/t/152261/Fall-Leaves



What's the reasoning behind smaller compost piles? Easier to handle or faster decomposition?

Maybe you have some knowledge on this. The horse manure piles were just left in the field for 4 months so I assume will be decomposing anaerobicly.
My mulch piles have being turned every week since being created so should be aerobically decomposing.
By adding the two in a 50/50 mix what will be the dominant decomposition?
Am I waisting my time turning the piles, has anaerobic taken over?
Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.
 
master steward
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Of all the walnuts, Black Walnut is definitely worth being wary of. So is cedar, as most growies don't like it either - it not just the pH either.

That said, I live in a cedar forest and it does decompose and plants will grow in its vicinity. Factors that I feel affect this:
1. It's our natural ecosystem and my soil hasn't been abused, so the microbes/decomposers plants need to cope with a cedar-rich environment are all around me.
2. We get a *lot* of rainfall at certain times of the year - this helps to leach any of the allopathic chemicals out of the surface of the soil - the raised beds will help.

Permaculture - the problem is the solution! Congratulations on figuring out that the best way to make your raised beds is out of rocks. There are threads on permies about dry-stacked walls, but here are two about a raised bed configuration that could be useful while building soil:
https://permies.com/t/12429/Interesting-keyhole-hugelkultur-design
https://permies.com/t/68883/permaculture-projects/keyhole-garden-summer-drought
The second thread are experiments done by r ranson and myself in our droughty summer ecosystem. We both found that to work well, they needed some water added to the compost tube - ideally poopy chicken/duck water! That is part of the original concept. I put a *lot* of punky wood at the bottom of mine, and about a foot of soil/compost at the top.

Does your neighbor with all the horse manure have broad leaf weeds volunteering on top of those piles? Try planting a few squash seeds in it and if the leaves look weirdly curled and the plants fail to thrive, quarantine any of that manure you've already got - it will grow grass just fine, and microbes/mushroom spawn will hopefully break it down eventually, but it is *very* long lasting. I got a single bad batch from a friend who's usually very trustworthy, and it still doesn't grow weeds like the rest of my land does and it's been over 5 years.
 
Jay Angler
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James Hird wrote:

Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.  

A very experienced permie described using a piece of 1/2 inch (maybe 3/4") PVC pipe flattened at one end and an air compressor with a blower nozzle pushed in the other end. He pushes the pipe into the compost pile, and triggers the blower nozzle. Move the pipe to another part of the pile and repeats. Pile is aerated! I so want to try his technique, but my composts are too far from an adequate power source to do so. We don't have one of the ones that work from a car's battery and I'm not sure they'd generate sufficient air volume and pressure to do the job, but I could look for more info if you are interested. I recall I made notes somewhere...

Also, lots of really good info on soil health and soil building can be found in Dr Redhawk's excellent series:  https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil
 
Jay Angler
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Another thing to consider is to do trench biochar production with the stuff you're burning, rather than just creating ash.

Biochar help sequester carbon and support your microbes. I've not done the trench version - just the pot in the wood-stove version - but there is plenty of info out there on doing it. Here's the link to permies forum: https://permies.com/f/190/biochar
 
James Hird
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Jay Angler wrote:Another thing to consider is to do trench biochar production with the stuff you're burning, rather than just creating ash.

Biochar help sequester carbon and support your microbes. I've not done the trench version - just the pot in the wood-stove version - but there is plenty of info out there on doing it. Here's the link to permies forum: https://permies.com/f/190/biochar



Yes, I'm interested in biochar too. I'll be delving into this in the future for sure.
At the moment I'm in a bit of a rush to get established.
I've got everything to do. My aim is to have the well drilled, solar set up and driveway finished before the end of summer. Fencing and a couple of 4x8 raised beds built by fall and a structure to go over the 5th wheel trailer were living in by the end of winter.

This might not seem much but I am just one person with no machinery building all structures with lumber harvested off the land. My wife will be coming down in a couple of weeks but she will be mostly looking after our baby son.

As soon as we are set up to a comfortable level I want to start experimenting with all these cool concepts I've being researching like biochar.

I am somewhat creating it at the moment. The fires I am having are burning so hot and fast the ash builds up so quickly the larger branches are being buried by it and starved of oxygen. From a large pile of brush I get about a bag and a half of charcoal. I know this isn't very efficient.but it's better than nothing. And the potash created is good too.
 
James Hird
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Jay Angler wrote:James Hird wrote:

Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.  

A very experienced permie described using a piece of 1/2 inch (maybe 3/4") PVC pipe flattened at one end and an air compressor with a blower nozzle pushed in the other end. He pushes the pipe into the compost pile, and triggers the blower nozzle. Move the pipe to another part of the pile and repeats. Pile is aerated! I so want to try his technique, but my composts are too far from an adequate power source to do so. We don't have one of the ones that work from a car's battery and I'm not sure they'd generate sufficient air volume and pressure to do the job, but I could look for more info if you are interested. I recall I made notes somewhere...

Also, lots of really good info on soil health and soil building can be found in Dr Redhawk's excellent series:  https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil



This sounds genius. I guess it disrupts the soil composition less too not needing to turn it.
All you would need to do is pressurize the air compressor and take it over to the piles. When there is no more pressure in the tank go and plug it in again and repressurize it.

This might have saved me hours of digging. I'm going to give it a go
 
James Hird
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Jay Angler wrote:Of all the walnuts, Black Walnut is definitely worth being wary of. So is cedar, as most growies don't like it either - it not just the pH either.

That said, I live in a cedar forest and it does decompose and plants will grow in its vicinity. Factors that I feel affect this:
1. It's our natural ecosystem and my soil hasn't been abused, so the microbes/decomposers plants need to cope with a cedar-rich environment are all around me.
2. We get a *lot* of rainfall at certain times of the year - this helps to leach any of the allopathic chemicals out of the surface of the soil - the raised beds will help.

Permaculture - the problem is the solution! Congratulations on figuring out that the best way to make your raised beds is out of rocks. There are threads on permies about dry-stacked walls, but here are two about a raised bed configuration that could be useful while building soil:
https://permies.com/t/12429/Interesting-keyhole-hugelkultur-design
https://permies.com/t/68883/permaculture-projects/keyhole-garden-summer-drought
The second thread are experiments done by r ranson and myself in our droughty summer ecosystem. We both found that to work well, they needed some water added to the compost tube - ideally poopy chicken/duck water! That is part of the original concept. I put a *lot* of punky wood at the bottom of mine, and about a foot of soil/compost at the top.

Does your neighbor with all the horse manure have broad leaf weeds volunteering on top of those piles? Try planting a few squash seeds in it and if the leaves look weirdly curled and the plants fail to thrive, quarantine any of that manure you've already got - it will grow grass just fine, and microbes/mushroom spawn will hopefully break it down eventually, but it is *very* long lasting. I got a single bad batch from a friend who's usually very trustworthy, and it still doesn't grow weeds like the rest of my land does and it's been over 5 years.



It is very cedary around here to and we also get very high rainfall in may. This rainfall might be out saving grace with the cedar and the black walnut.

What is the risk with the horse manure? What they are feeding the horses?
They feed them hay from the local feed store
I know 100% the pasture doesn't get any pesticides or herbicides on it. It's very small scale. Just 3 horses, maybe 2 or 3 acres.
There were a few broad leaf weeds on the pile. Not many though because the piles were started in December and things have only just started sprouting here in Oklahoma
 
Jay Angler
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James Hird wrote:

They feed them hay from the local feed store

If the horses are getting most of the "feed" from the organic pasture, that's good news. The hay is definitely the issue. Many "professional" hay fields are treated with broad-leaf "cides" that are extremely persistent in the hay produced, and travel right through the horse's gut. If the hay being used as feed is locally sourced from farmers who believe that a few broad-leaf "weeds" don't harm the hay, again, thank your lucky stars.
What I would do: 1. I'd ask the feed store if they buy from local farmers.
2. If the answer is yes, you might also get some idea if they are "weed-friendly" farmers.
3. If the hay isn't too expensive, you could buy a bale and start a "hay bale mini-garden" - there are plenty of instructions on the web for getting one growing.  If the hay bale will grow beans or zucchini, that look healthy - or since it's early for them, you could even try lettuce - direct seeded into the bale - that's ideal. If you get some fresh veggies out of this experiment, you haven't lost anything!

Some of the gick is nastier and longer lasting that other possibilities. I've only once had a problem, but there are absolutely reports of people ruining their gardens due to one bad lot. Organic is the safe way to go if you can get it: learning to live with, appreciate, and even enjoy "weeds" is something I've learned over the last 20 years! Hubby did a double take when he found out that I transplanted a few dandelions that were in spots I didn't want them... but the chickens thought it was darn kind of me!
 
James Hird
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Jay Angler wrote:James Hird wrote:

They feed them hay from the local feed store

If the horses are getting most of the "feed" from the organic pasture, that's good news. The hay is definitely the issue. Many "professional" hay fields are treated with broad-leaf "cides" that are extremely persistent in the hay produced, and travel right through the horse's gut. If the hay being used as feed is locally sourced from farmers who believe that a few broad-leaf "weeds" don't harm the hay, again, thank your lucky stars.
What I would do: 1. I'd ask the feed store if they buy from local farmers.
2. If the answer is yes, you might also get some idea if they are "weed-friendly" farmers.
3. If the hay isn't too expensive, you could buy a bale and start a "hay bale mini-garden" - there are plenty of instructions on the web for getting one growing.  If the hay bale will grow beans or zucchini, that look healthy - or since it's early for them, you could even try lettuce - direct seeded into the bale - that's ideal. If you get some fresh veggies out of this experiment, you haven't lost anything!

Some of the gick is nastier and longer lasting that other possibilities. I've only once had a problem, but there are absolutely reports of people ruining their gardens due to one bad lot. Organic is the safe way to go if you can get it: learning to live with, appreciate, and even enjoy "weeds" is something I've learned over the last 20 years! Hubby did a double take when he found out that I transplanted a few dandelions that were in spots I didn't want them... but the chickens thought it was darn kind of me!



Thank you for pointing this out. I hadn't thought of it.
I got a little worried because I have already mixed the manure in with all of my mulch.
I spoke to my neighbor, she said she's never had a problem and used the manure on her garden for a couple of years now. This reassured me some what.

It seems like a gamble with the hay, the feed store could be sourcing it from different places. It's a shame because the horse poop is such a good resource. I don't think I'm going to do it again. Hopefully by next year we'll have our own chickens and there manure can enrich the mulch. The horse manure will be fine during the summer when the horses are just grazing.
Hopefully I get away with it this time
 
Jay Angler
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James Hird wrote:Hopefully by next year we'll have our own chickens and there manure can enrich the mulch.


I got into chickens for a really shitty reason! The eggs were just a bonus - the real benefit was the manure!
 
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James Hird wrote:

Jay Angler wrote:James Hird wrote:

Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.  

A very experienced permie described using a piece of 1/2 inch (maybe 3/4") PVC pipe flattened at one end and an air compressor with a blower nozzle pushed in the other end. He pushes the pipe into the compost pile, and triggers the blower nozzle. Move the pipe to another part of the pile and repeats. Pile is aerated! I so want to try his technique, but my composts are too far from an adequate power source to do so. We don't have one of the ones that work from a car's battery and I'm not sure they'd generate sufficient air volume and pressure to do the job, but I could look for more info if you are interested. I recall I made notes somewhere...

Also, lots of really good info on soil health and soil building can be found in Dr Redhawk's excellent series:  https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil



This sounds genius. I guess it disrupts the soil composition less too not needing to turn it.
All you would need to do is pressurize the air compressor and take it over to the piles. When there is no more pressure in the tank go and plug it in again and repressurize it.

This might have saved me hours of digging. I'm going to give it a go




I use 4" perforated corrugated drain-tile pipe as a chimney rising out of the middle of my compost piles. The exposed black pipe heats the top of the air column and creates a passive thermo-syphon pulling air  through the pile. I attach the chimney to a T and another perforated pipe at the bottom of the pile for drainage, and to get air to the bottom of the pile.
 
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James Hird wrote: And the pile of rocks cleared just off the surface of the acre. Good to build with but not for gardening. My raised beds are going to be build with the stone



Raised beds made of your abundant stones will save on costs and will last a long time since the stones wont rot like wood eventually will, but keep in mind they will absorb heat from the sun and dry out the dirt next to them.  If you keep the beds watered sufficiently it wont be a big problem but keep that in mind when planting things near the edge.  

PS: I thought I had a lot of rocks on my property.  Mine are mostly baseball or softball size, but still have more than enough of the bigger ones.  And, I did finally give in and use the last big batch I cleared to make a raised bed.  There are only so many other places to hid them.  Which reminds me, they work great for gabion fences and posts if you are interested.
http://www.aggregateflyer.com/public_source/img/portfolio/gabion.png
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/e3/11/1be3119a331cbdefcf81ca103037eebc.jpg
 
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I know rocks are a pain but you are going to have such nice raised beds with them! I'm glad to hear you plan on using them. We have rocks but only when we dig down about 6", so things like fence posts are a pain but we don't have enough to actually make anything with them.

If your baby is anything like my kids, when he's big enough, he will see that field of rocks as a field of free toys. They collect rocks like a squirrel collects acorns. 😂
 
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Ben Zumeta wrote:

James Hird wrote:

Jay Angler wrote:James Hird wrote:

Baring in mind I don't need the compost until next spring and it would probably take me a solid 4 hours of digging to turn all the piles each week. Which I'm willing to do if it's worth it.  

A very experienced permie described using a piece of 1/2 inch (maybe 3/4") PVC pipe flattened at one end and an air compressor with a blower nozzle pushed in the other end. He pushes the pipe into the compost pile, and triggers the blower nozzle. Move the pipe to another part of the pile and repeats. Pile is aerated! I so want to try his technique, but my composts are too far from an adequate power source to do so. We don't have one of the ones that work from a car's battery and I'm not sure they'd generate sufficient air volume and pressure to do the job, but I could look for more info if you are interested. I recall I made notes somewhere...

Also, lots of really good info on soil health and soil building can be found in Dr Redhawk's excellent series:  https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil



This sounds genius. I guess it disrupts the soil composition less too not needing to turn it.
All you would need to do is pressurize the air compressor and take it over to the piles. When there is no more pressure in the tank go and plug it in again and repressurize it.

This might have saved me hours of digging. I'm going to give it a go




I use 4" perforated corrugated drain-tile pipe as a chimney rising out of the middle of my compost piles. The exposed black pipe heats the top of the air column and creates a passive thermo-syphon pulling air  through the pile. I attach the chimney to a T and another perforated pipe at the bottom of the pile for drainage, and to get air to the bottom of the pile.



Also a very good idea, even less work. This fourm is great.
How tall / wide at the base are your piles?
You could fashion a cap out of an old coffee tin or something similar to keep the rain out. Like stove pipes have.
 
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Michael Fundaro wrote:

James Hird wrote: And the pile of rocks cleared just off the surface of the acre. Good to build with but not for gardening. My raised beds are going to be build with the stone



Raised beds made of your abundant stones will save on costs and will last a long time since the stones wont rot like wood eventually will, but keep in mind they will absorb heat from the sun and dry out the dirt next to them.  If you keep the beds watered sufficiently it wont be a big problem but keep that in mind when planting things near the edge.  

PS: I thought I had a lot of rocks on my property.  Mine are mostly baseball or softball size, but still have more than enough of the bigger ones.  And, I did finally give in and use the last big batch I cleared to make a raised bed.  There are only so many other places to hid them.  Which reminds me, they work great for gabion fences and posts if you are interested.
http://www.aggregateflyer.com/public_source/img/portfolio/gabion.png
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/e3/11/1be3119a331cbdefcf81ca103037eebc.jpg


I have seen those fences. Kind of a double bonus because you don't have to dig post holes in this ridiculously rocky ground.
I'm using the small rocks as fill for my driveway though.  About 50 tones by my estimations. The more fill I use the less shale I have to buy and I'm on a tight budget so I've got my work cut out.
I'm using the large stone to build my solar/ laundry shack. I'll attach a photo. This is what I was doing today. This is my first attempt at stone masonry so I'm pretty pleased with it
IMG_20220420_154658_823.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG_20220420_154658_823.jpg]
IMG_20220420_154730_529.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG_20220420_154730_529.jpg]
 
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Jay Angler wrote:Of all the walnuts, Black Walnut is definitely worth being wary of. So is cedar, as most growies don't like it either - it not just the pH either.

That said, I live in a cedar forest and it does decompose and plants will grow in its vicinity. Factors that I feel affect this:
1. It's our natural ecosystem and my soil hasn't been abused, so the microbes/decomposers plants need to cope with a cedar-rich environment are all around me.
2. We get a *lot* of rainfall at certain times of the year - this helps to leach any of the allopathic chemicals out of the surface of the soil - the raised beds will help.

Permaculture - the problem is the solution! Congratulations on figuring out that the best way to make your raised beds is out of rocks. There are threads on permies about dry-stacked walls, but here are two about a raised bed configuration that could be useful while building soil:
https://permies.com/t/12429/Interesting-keyhole-hugelkultur-design
https://permies.com/t/68883/permaculture-projects/keyhole-garden-summer-drought
The second thread are experiments done by r ranson and myself in our droughty summer ecosystem. We both found that to work well, they needed some water added to the compost tube - ideally poopy chicken/duck water! That is part of the original concept. I put a *lot* of punky wood at the bottom of mine, and about a foot of soil/compost at the top.

Does your neighbor with all the horse manure have broad leaf weeds volunteering on top of those piles? Try planting a few squash seeds in it and if the leaves look weirdly curled and the plants fail to thrive, quarantine any of that manure you've already got - it will grow grass just fine, and microbes/mushroom spawn will hopefully break it down eventually, but it is *very* long lasting. I got a single bad batch from a friend who's usually very trustworthy, and it still doesn't grow weeds like the rest of my land does and it's been over 5 years.


I love the keyhole raised beds.
I like that they give another dimension being at different levels. Even if you just put things that don't grow as tall in the middle, or flowers to help the pollinators. I think it would look really cool in stone. Something different too, the round shape among the other rectangle beds.
 
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You've got plenty of soil there.  Here's a few things I'd consider:  

*Lay out your wood chips and manure in the bed formation right away.  Let it compost where it's going to be.  You'll get the added benefit of letting the soil organisms help from below as well.  

*Get going on some non-raised bed cropping areas too.  I'd try getting a cover crop of barley, 4010 field peas, forage collards, and an annual clover going.  Those easily germinate (peas could be tough) when surface broadcasted with a little rain.  Then spread a thin layer of manure over the top of those seeds to act as both a light mulch and some fertility.  

*Focus this spot on growing standing carbon (straw) first.  As you draw closer to fall, plant it with a 2 bushel/acre rate of winter rye.  Then let that winter rye go all the way to maturity the following year.  You'll have so much straw that it'll be its own mulch for a fall crop.  Rye is extremely resilient and the straw will make you soil and keep your plants alive in adverse conditions.    

*Focus on building up soil first.  Worry about food after you get a solid layer of rye straw on top of the ground.  

*Search the landscape for medium life carbons like canary grass, cattails, lawn clippings, warm season grass fields, abandoned round bails etc.  Free carbon is everywhere, just go find it and bring it home.    
 
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Christopher Shimanski wrote:You've got plenty of soil there.  Here's a few things I'd consider:  

*Lay out your wood chips and manure in the bed formation right away.  Let it compost where it's going to be.  You'll get the added benefit of letting the soil organisms help from below as well.  

*Get going on some non-raised bed cropping areas too.  I'd try getting a cover crop of barley, 4010 field peas, forage collards, and an annual clover going.  Those easily germinate (peas could be tough) when surface broadcasted with a little rain.  Then spread a thin layer of manure over the top of those seeds to act as both a light mulch and some fertility.  

*Focus this spot on growing standing carbon (straw) first.  As you draw closer to fall, plant it with a 2 bushel/acre rate of winter rye.  Then let that winter rye go all the way to maturity the following year.  You'll have so much straw that it'll be its own mulch for a fall crop.  Rye is extremely resilient and the straw will make you soil and keep your plants alive in adverse conditions.    

*Focus on building up soil first.  Worry about food after you get a solid layer of rye straw on top of the ground.  

*Search the landscape for medium life carbons like canary grass, cattails, lawn clippings, warm season grass fields, abandoned round bails etc.  Free carbon is everywhere, just go find it and bring it home.    


Good info, thanks.
I'll have to wait for my wife to join me in a couple of weeks to decide the layout of the raised beds. I'll do as you suggested though, start the hugalkulture beds as soon as possible and build the walls around them in the fall when I've got time. I can always top the beds up then.
In regards to the cropping, I do like this idea but it will have to wait for now.
Our land is fully forested and I've only cleared an acre at the moment. All of the space in this acre is or will be used. In the next couple of years I will be clearing an acre or two more and this will be used for pasture and crops (what ever I can get to grow in rockie soil)
What ever gets cleared will be mulched or burnt and added to the compost piles.

Building soil is my main priority. There is no garden without it. I think I need to add more deciduous mulch to my piles. I only recently discovered eastern red cedar isn't great for mulch and it's about half of the wood I've added. Fortunately I've got a medium sized oak and a couple winged elms I need to process so that will be getting added
 
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We have what is known as rocky mountain cedar here.  Like your eastern red cedar this is a form of juniper.   Yes, they can interfer with the growth of some plants. (I remember tomatoes particularly).  It is not a long lasting problem, nor does it effect every family of plants.  Doing a fast search for plants that grow under juniper turns up a lot color suggestions, but this link https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fallsgarden.com/juniper-companion-plants/&ved=2ahUKEwjW-cvlvaT3AhVjcDwKHXsoBxcQFnoECFoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0BRLpMvWQKGwX0Q1chVaJR (sorry it's so long)  which lists a far more extensive list.  I see a lot of things in the same family as onions.  There's also the suggestion of morning glories which sweet potatoes are very closely related to.      This article seems more focused on the landscaping potential of the juniper but it may be good starting point for choosing early crops for those beds.  
 
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Casie Becker wrote:We have what is known as rocky mountain cedar here.  Like your eastern red cedar this is a form of juniper.   Yes, they can interfer with the growth of some plants. (I remember tomatoes particularly).  It is not a long lasting problem, nor does it effect every family of plants.  Doing a fast search for plants that grow under juniper turns up a lot color suggestions, but this link https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fallsgarden.com/juniper-companion-plants/&ved=2ahUKEwjW-cvlvaT3AhVjcDwKHXsoBxcQFnoECFoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0BRLpMvWQKGwX0Q1chVaJR (sorry it's so long)  which lists a far more extensive list.  I see a lot of things in the same family as onions.  There's also the suggestion of morning glories which sweet potatoes are very closely related to.      This article seems more focused on the landscaping potential of the juniper but it may be good starting point for choosing early crops for those beds.  


Thanks for the source of information.
While it is tempting to just cut the 'cedar' down, I use the lumbar for building. They are excellent shade trees and I've got a hand full of larger ones directly west of were I'm going to build my structure. They will be perfect shade from the incredibly hot afternoon sun in the summer. It's a rocky area underneath them too so not really suitable for grass so I was wanting to create a wildflower/ shrub area there. This article will  be very handy when deciding what to attempt to grow
In regards to the beds. It is a very fine mulch, we get a huge amount of rain in May here in Oklahoma and again more rain in the fall. Summer is humid so I'm hoping this might flush some of the allelopathic chemicals away. This combined with adding as much 'good' mulch between now and fall
 
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Cassie Becker wrote:

Like your eastern red cedar this is a form of juniper.

Around my area where wildfires are getting bigger and more frequent, people are being advised to avoid planting "juniper".
From the interweb:

Junipers are among the least fire-resistant plants you can use in your landscape, according to the Pacific Northwest Extension. Junipers have lacy, evergreen foliage which burns quickly because of its texture. They also contain flammable volatile oils, identifiable by their strong odor and sticky sap.


Cassie, have you any idea whether the eastern red cedar has similar risks associated with it?
James, have you any idea how great the wildfire risk is on your land?

I do know that planting deciduous trees lowers the risks, and there are certainly understory plants that resist fire better than others - not to mention rocky fire breaks!

You have to work with what you have. Chipping and burning residue before hot dry weather decreases fire risk. Composting those chips so they keep the soil moist decreases those risks. Building homes and outbuilding in ways to lower the odds of them burning is always a good thing. But knowing a risk exists and evaluating its probability is generally a good first step!
 
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Jay Angler wrote:Cassie Becker wrote:

Like your eastern red cedar this is a form of juniper.

Around my area where wildfires are getting bigger and more frequent, people are being advised to avoid planting "juniper".
From the interweb:

Junipers are among the least fire-resistant plants you can use in your landscape, according to the Pacific Northwest Extension. Junipers have lacy, evergreen foliage which burns quickly because of its texture. They also contain flammable volatile oils, identifiable by their strong odor and sticky sap.


Cassie, have you any idea whether the eastern red cedar has similar risks associated with it?
James, have you any idea how great the wildfire risk is on your land?

I do know that planting deciduous trees lowers the risks, and there are certainly understory plants that resist fire better than others - not to mention rocky fire breaks!

You have to work with what you have. Chipping and burning residue before hot dry weather decreases fire risk. Composting those chips so they keep the soil moist decreases those risks. Building homes and outbuilding in ways to lower the odds of them burning is always a good thing. But knowing a risk exists and evaluating its probability is generally a good first step!



Yep, the cedars go up like rocket fuel. All the oils in them I assume.
With fire there is always a risk, you just have to minimize that risk as much as possible. Wildfires aren't people's biggest concern here though. That's tornados....
I think it's because we get a dumping of rain in May and June and again rain in the fall the 'dry' season isn't very long. The dryest month is actually December.
I'm always carful when I burn. Always after rain or while it's raining. The biggest risk would be the wind whipping up the embers after the main fire had burnt down. The wind can come out of nowhere at any time.

My wife is from California and I've spent lots of time in the PNW, the climate is completely different out here, no where near as dry.
I read somewhere that it gets the same, if not more rain fall per year in inches that Washington State. But high 200's sunny days. Basically when it rains, IT RAINS. haha
 
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What you are doing sounds like something i would do to all of the above. I would def. wait a year and let that manure sit till next growing season.
good luck !
 
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You are already on the right track with the hugels and compost. I would recommend the addition of animals like chickens if you can manage it. They can make their way through stones, are opportunistic eaters, low maintenance and will help build more soil.

Don't worry about using cedar or pine needles or wood chips. There's no good evidence for it severely decreasing PH or having chemical allelopathy. In fact, most soils in the west are alkaline, and would benefit from the acidity.

I am kinda jealous of your rocks. They would make perfect and permanent mulch around trees, condensing humidity, and the thermal mass of stones help ripen fruit. You cold also use them for one rock dams where it's too stony to dig swales. Just make a line of rocks in at least three rows with the rocks interlocking to help slow and spread runoff. They could also make edging for your hugels.
 
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In your forested areas near the black walnuts, consider looking at the benefits of that feature.  Besides being free food, black walnuts reduce competition so you can more easily grow certain plants that are tolerant of the walnuts.

A beautiful example is at my parents home in Oregon. Underneath their ancient walnut tree is a gorgeous patch of dog tooth lilies that extends out to the entire leaf-fall area of the walnut. Beyond the area of leaf-fall, the lilies are rare. It is beautiful to see each spring, and they are edible lilies as well.  

Other permaculture growers have noticed this effect, too, and even make guilds based around walnuts and their competition limiting capacities.  Here is a list of plants that grow under walnuts: Joybillee Farms 30 Plants that will grow near black walnuts

Here is a quote from the website, where they quote another author, Amy Stross, who promotes utilizing walnut guilds in permaculture:

In The Suburban Micro-Farm, Modern Solutions for Busy People, Amy Stross points out that walnuts are nutrient accumulators of potassium and phosphorous, making the walnut a treasure in a permaculture garden.

   “The nutrients accumulate in the leaves, which will also have accumulated juglone. As the leaves fall, they will fertilize the ground of the juglone-tolerant plants, saving time and money.” (p. 260).



Joybilee Farm further explains:

Instead of just planting walnut trees, Stross, encourages her readers to plant a “Walnut guild”, a symbiotic grouping of plants that enhance the growth of each other through fertilization, pest control, light and water needs, and root development.

The walnut guild includes small trees, shrubs, and low herbs that are juglone tolerant.  As the central walnut tree grows and its shade prevails, some of the guild plantings will die out.  Other plants will thrive from the increase in phosphorous and potassium from the dropped leaves.  This is the expected succession.



And they both list a number of food plants that can grow under walnuts including:
cherry (you might try sand cherry, like Hansen's bush cherry if you want a short, more manageable plant)
pawpaw
persimmon
plum
quince
serviceberry
black raspberry
currant
elder
spicebush
mulberry
hazelnut
grapes
rose
hawthorn
blackhaw
honey locust

The list goes on, I don't want to quote too much from it. I'd recommend that you read the link above as there is so much more good info on making walnut guilds.

And my addition to that list is the lovely dog-tooth lily/trout lily/dog-tooth "violet": Dog tooth lilies in the Ozarks


Different dog tooth lily species are edible in different ways:  Green Dean talks about this here:Eat the Weeds article referring to edible Erythroniums and other flowers

the awesome Green Dean from Eat the Weeds wrote:Our next two blossoms are in the same genus, Erythronium. The White Trout Lily is E. albidum and the Yellow Adder’s Tongue is E. americanum. First the White Trout Lily: Flower stalks, flowers, buds and the white bell-shaped flowers can be eaten raw or cooked. The young leaves are edible raw as well. They are crisp, tender, and tasty. However, the plant only has two leaves so if you are going to harvest them harvest only one leaf per plant. The bulbs are also edible after boiling. They are considered delicious. However, in large amount they can be emetic so consume within reason.

The Yellow Adder’s Tongue is slightly different. Like its relative its flower stalk, flower buds, and flowers are edible raw or cooked. The leaves can be eaten raw, such as in salads. Again, the plant only has two leaves so harvest responsibly. E. americanum bulbs can be eaten raw or cooked. They are crisp and chewy. However again, consume sparingly as they can be emetic. A third Erythronium, the European E. dens-canis, the Dog’s Tooth Violet, also has edible cooked roots. It is also the source of starch use to make pasta-like noodles or cakes. Leaves are eaten boiled. Don’t let the common name of the E. dens-canis — Dog’s Tooth Violet — confuse you regarding violets. Violets are in the genus Violas.  Violas do not have edible roots.


 
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Skyler said, "Don't worry about using cedar or pine needles or wood chips. There's no good evidence for it severely decreasing PH or having chemical allelopathy.



I will have to agree with this.

I feel the juniper cedars that I have on my patio have been given a bad rap.  I feel it is more about the fact that plants don't do well in shade.

I am growing a birdseed food plot under my juniper now that the sun can get to underneath the tree.
 
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James Hird wrote:
Good info, thanks.
I'll have to wait for my wife to join me in a couple of weeks to decide the layout of the raised beds. I'll do as you suggested though, start the hugalkulture beds as soon as possible and build the walls around them in the fall when I've got time. I can always top the beds up then.
In regards to the cropping, I do like this idea but it will have to wait for now.
Our land is fully forested and I've only cleared an acre at the moment. All of the space in this acre is or will be used. In the next couple of years I will be clearing an acre or two more and this will be used for pasture and crops (what ever I can get to grow in rockie soil)
What ever gets cleared will be mulched or burnt and added to the compost piles.

Building soil is my main priority. There is no garden without it. I think I need to add more deciduous mulch to my piles. I only recently discovered eastern red cedar isn't great for mulch and it's about half of the wood I've added. Fortunately I've got a medium sized oak and a couple winged elms I need to process so that will be getting added



When you get some free time, Yup I know that doesn't come often in the beginning stage, use an aerial photo and plan where you would want the raised beds and other things on your property.  Between the photo and standing in various areas of the property you can get an idea of where things will be out of the way, wont block a view, and can possibly add beauty and character to your property.  
In the beginning I planted stuff in places I thought would be good but then realized they would be in the way.  The few things that didn't die in the lousy soil here had to be moved.  After that I thought things out better before I planted or built anything on the property.  If we ever build on our second lot next door I may have to move part of the raised bed I just started, and cut out part of the chicken run but we were OK with that because building that second house is basically a pipe dream at this point.
 
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