• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Devaka Cooray
  • Leigh Tate
master gardeners:
  • Timothy Norton
  • Christopher Weeks
gardeners:
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Matt McSpadden
  • thomas rubino

Help me identify and decide the fate of trees/plants on abandoned property

 
Posts: 11
Location: Slovakia (in zone 6b-7a)
8
cat forest garden foraging
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So I just learned that my family owns a 1/10 acre vineyard that has been abandoned for 10-20 years. Nobody cared about it and it is now overgrown by:
- young Maples - probably field maple (Acer campestre)? It has nice tasty, sweet blossoms.
- Probably some kind of rose (see attached pic)
- Corydalis / Hollowroot ? - (see attached pics) - There is quite a lot of these and I've read they their tubers are used in TCM and are hallucinogenic - if anybody could confirm and maybe share some experience on how they are used, that would be great.
- UnknownA - I am not sure the 2 pictures are from the same plant.
- UnknownB
- Dogwood or Cherry - there are multiple cherry trees nearby, so I guess these will all be cherries as well? Do they grow in similar environments?

I only used the PlantNet app to identify these plants, so it may not be accurate.

If the presence of these plants tell you anything about the soil quality, I would be very glad if you share it.

I have received a permission to do whatever I like with the place and I am thinking of transforming this into a more edible landscape (like a small food forest). But I am not yet sure on how to go about it. Should I just slowly replace the trees little by little with edible (fruit/nut) trees/shrubs/perennials/fungi? Or would you rather cut down most of them and "build from the ground up"? Do you have any recommendations on what edible plants could grow well in an environment like this? Do you think strawberries could be successful here?

Thanks in advance for any replies!
Maple.JPEG
Corydalis-id
A-rose-.JPEG
Corydalis-cava-leaf-id
Corydalis.JPEG
Corydalis-cava-leaf-id
Corydalis2.JPEG
400
UnknownA.JPEG
Dogwood-or-Cherry
UnknownA2.JPEG
Dogwood-or-Cherry-flower-buds
UnknownB.JPEG
Dogwood-or-Cherry-flower-buds
Dogwood-or-Cherry.JPEG
young-leaves-id-Dogwood-or-Cherry
Dogwood-or-Cherry2.JPEG
Dogwood-or-Cherry-leaf-id
Dogwood-or-Cherry3.JPEG
plant-Dogwood-or-Cherry
Dogwood-or-Cherry4.JPEG
Dogwood-or-Cherry-plant-id
 
pollinator
Posts: 370
56
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm not all too practiced at this. I don't think you're ever going to be able to accurately identify that rose, given how many kinds of roses there are. I'm going with Dogwood on the bottom ones, though. They have more of a tendency to have that blush in the leaves of young plants than being solid colors.

Definitely don't take my word for it, 100%, though. Things might be a little easier to ID once/ if they flower.
 
master pollinator
Posts: 4678
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
1278
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello Denis! What an interesting opportunity!

If my conversion is correct, 1/10 acre = 404 square metres. So, the equivalent of a 20m x 20m plot.

This is large enough to do interesting things and grow a lot of food, but IMO large trees and shrubs will quickly own the sunlight and water/nutrients if they can. I guess it comes down to your vision of what you want to accomplish.

What is the general climate, frost-free days, sun exposure, soil depth, water availablility, and drainage/slope? These are all important in planning.
 
master pollinator
Posts: 920
Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria
329
5
cat forest garden trees tiny house books writing
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The dogwood looks to me as if it may be a cornelian cherry, a variety of dogwood which has good edible fruit: https://pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Cornus+mas
You might want to observe for a while to see what fruits before deciding what to remove.
I have a similar adventure ahead with an abandoned 1900 sq m property in Bulgaria.
 
Posts: 44
Location: Western Colorado, Zone 5b-ish
11
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
All I can add here is that the first three dogwood or cherry photos are indeed a dogwood. The fourth one is probably some kind of cherry. It reminds me of nanking cherry, but being a in western N. America, I might not know enough to be helpful for you.
 
pollinator
Posts: 773
Location: Western MA, zone 6b
475
cat dog forest garden foraging urban food preservation
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

The seventh or so picture looks like it might be black locust
 
gardener
Posts: 1609
Location: the mountains of western nc
475
forest garden trees foraging chicken food preservation wood heat
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
a bit like black locust, agreed. without seeing any woody parts, i’d guess something more akin to crown vetch.

the pic after it (and a couple after that) are definitely dogwood. that first one with the little buds on it looks like very young fruits of flowering dogwood, C. florida
 
Jane Mulberry
master pollinator
Posts: 920
Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria
329
5
cat forest garden trees tiny house books writing
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I believe the original poster's piece of land is in Slovakia, so we when trying to identify them, we need to consider that the plants are more likely to be European natives than US natives.
 
steward
Posts: 15419
Location: USDA Zone 8a
4194
dog hunting food preservation cooking bee greening the desert
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Those all look like plants I would love to have.  Most of them look familiar though I don't know what they are.

I am wondering, what is the goal for this land?

Food to eat now or planting trees for the future?

I would want to plant for food now, then later consider food for the future.

My suggestion would be to leave those unless you know they are bad and start planting food to eat now.
 
master steward
Posts: 7290
Location: Isle of Skye, Scotland. Nearly 70 inches rain a year
3518
4
transportation dog forest garden foraging trees books food preservation woodworking wood heat rocket stoves ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It looks like a lovely bit of land - more like established woodland that a vineyard!  Are there actually vines left at all?

In a temperate climate, to create a productive forest garden with full layers usually involves creating some edge to let in enough light to enable productivity throughout the forest layers. Otherwise you end up with just canopy and spring emphemerals. I'd be inclined to think about it for a while, and observe through a full year so you can get a better idea of what plants and animals you have there already. There are lots of other potential uses for woodland, including timber and mushrooms....

I agree with your ID of field maple. I'm not sure of the edible uses apart from the possibility of tapping the sap, but I guess like sycamore the seeds are edible too?
You probably have dog rose. It won't flower much without light, but petals and hips are edible.
I'm not familiar with Corydalis, but it does look like the pictures you have taken. Ken Fern says

The tuber is antispasmodic, hallucinogenic and also slows the pulse. It is harvested in the spring before the plant comes into flower and dried for later use. The plant should only be used under the guidance of a trained herbalist, it is used in the treatment of Parkinson's disease and other neurological disorders.One report says that the plant is cultivated for its medicinal uses in Sweden, but gives no more details.
The following reports are for C. yanhusuo which, according to one authority, is the correct name for this species. It is treated as a separate species here.The tuber is analgesic, antiseptic, antispasmodic and sedative.The root has traditionally been used to lower pain and strengthen the circulation. It also has sedative properties and is used in the treatment of a wide range of ailments Various extracts from the plant have shown antitussive, cardiotonic, hypotensive and anticancer activity

from The Ferns Website. It sounds like you may need some expert advice on use and harvesting, since he also indicates it is toxic, so the doses and preparation are probably important.
I don't know what unknown A is. I'd take a wild guess at something related to Pulmonaria (lungwort) but I think you'll probably have to wait for some more maturity in the plant, or flowers.
Unknown B I think may be a vetch. It looks a bit like my milk vetch (Astragalus glycyphyllos). Should be nitrogen fixing if so. Possibly edible, but some toxicity so be careful or get advice.
I think Jane's right about the Cornus mas, although dogwood-cherry4 maybe an actual cherry, the leaves look slightly different to me.

Reading about the different plants, they mostly seem to prefer slightly heavier (clay) alkaline soil.





 
greg mosser
gardener
Posts: 1609
Location: the mountains of western nc
475
forest garden trees foraging chicken food preservation wood heat
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Jane Mulberry wrote:I believe the original poster's piece of land is in Slovakia, so we when trying to identify them, we need to consider that the plants are more likely to be European natives than US natives.



i appreciate that and did remember that the poster is in slovakia, and am admittedly not familiar with all of the european dogwood species, but i am familiar with cornelian cherry. regarding the structures i mention, i suppose i should have said ‘they look more to me like C. florida fruitlets than C. mas, though i am unfamiliar with the dogwoods of your area.’ i tried to suffice with the less articulate ‘looks like’.

also i am led to believe that various cultivars of C. florida are grown as ornamentals in europe. i don’t know of their naturalization status, but i wouldn’t be too surprised if they do ‘volunteer’ from time to time. i also wouldn’t be surprised if it is in fact a native that i’m not familiar with!
 
Jane Mulberry
master pollinator
Posts: 920
Location: East of England/ Northeast Bulgaria
329
5
cat forest garden trees tiny house books writing
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think you're right, Greg, and there's more than one dogwood species on the land! I can be a bit slow on the uptake sometimes, and now you explained it, I get what you're saying, and agree it does look like C. florida. My guess is that chances are high it isn't but is some similar European species.

I'm no expert on the Eastern European village environment, but I do know a little bit about Bulgarian villages. If Slovakian villages are anything like Bulgaria, very few things are planted for ornamental value alone. Yes, there's a lot of beauty. When people can afford it, houses can be beautifully ornmented, there will be potted flowering plants on windowsills and doorsteps, and gates can be works of art!  Even my very basic cottage has carved barge boards and intricate joinery in the windows (all unfortunately in a bad state due to neglect). But when feeding a family on a 600 sq m plot, subsistence farming, which was the traditional norm in many villages, every plant has to earn its place.  Even the street trees are pollarded hard for fuel and stock feed. Cornelian cherry varieties are frequently found in village locations and many gardens have one. Other dogwoods, less so. But I also could be wrong assuming the land is in or near a village!

Denis, where is your family vineyard located? In a village, a villa zone of a town, or as part of a larger vineyard? Is it in the mountains, the forest, or surrounded by farmland? Are there still productive vines on it? Are there any local people with plant knowledge?

Nancy, what you said! It's hard to wait rather than get straight into doing things on our land, but observing through a few seasons to see what is there will help us get the most from the land we steward.
 
Posts: 32
Location: Belgium, alkaline clay along the Escaut river
17
forest garden foraging cooking
  • Likes 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello,
I would go slowly, by selecting the plants that are already present and for which you find a use, and replacing the others over a few years. If the land was let to evolve on its own for a long time, chances are the natural niches of a food forest are already populated, and a lot of them might already suit your needs. Stripping the land and beginning from scratch will reset all that was patiently done these years, and you risk losing a lot of time in doing so in my opinion.
I would suggest to draw a plan with sun, shadow and rain patterns throughout the year, the microclimates that are already present (stones, ponds, slopes), the existing main trees before guilding them, the paths you will use and study everything that is already there before making decisions.
Have a nice day,
Oliver
 
pollinator
Posts: 135
Location: Cave Junction, Oregon
7
hugelkultur forest garden foraging urban cooking food preservation
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Cherry trees do drop a lot of fruit, and those fallen fruits will very often sprout up. My very old bings which are now dying (my neighbors trees have grown up and cut off my sun entirely)  have left a legacy of at least a dozen young trees that are now producing fruit for my
other neighbors.
You may get lucky to find a sturdy juvenile worth nurturing to maturity.
Have fun with your new "digs"  tee hee
 
Denis Schwarcz
Posts: 11
Location: Slovakia (in zone 6b-7a)
8
cat forest garden foraging
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Wow, thank you very much for all the replies!

I am sorry I haven't been answering sooner, but unfortunately I had very little free time in the past week.

First a bit about the general climate and location:
- There are around 5 months of frost free days (~ May 15th - ~October 15th).
- I think there is good sun exposure - it is on an elevated (200m above sea level) place with no huge trees/buildings that would cast shade on the property.
- There is bad water availability - no well, but I don't know how much it rains. So I guess keeping most of the trees to retain moisture is a pretty good idea.
- The vineyard is located as a part of a bigger vineyard (multiple vineyards around) near a village. I am lucky (or at least I think so ), that this exact vineyard is the "last" and after it begins a forest.
- There are definitely no productive vines on it, the place looks like a small jungle .

Looks like black locust has some uses, would be nice if it turned out to be it .

Based on your recommendations and my own thoughts/feelings, I will go slowly about it. I like the idea of keeping the "evolved nature" alive and slowly "tweaking it". I will observe the land and try to identify more plants as the seasons go by. If I'll have enough time, I will cut off a couple trees to let light in and plant some edible perennials (I would like to give wild strawberries a shot). But I have abandoned the idea of cutting the whole place down (which wasn't very appealing to me since the beginning). I will also give the mushrooms a shot, but first I have to do my research about how to go about it.

It seems like this idea looks interesting to multiple members here. I will take more general photos of the place and try to keep you updated about my progress .
 
This tiny ad has a self esteem problem. Too much self esteem.
Learn Permaculture through a little hard work
https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic