Elderberry (Sambucus ???) on the Pacific Wet Coast

My friend just gave me a pair of rooted Elderberry babies. The place that would be easiest to plant them, would be just south of a pair of Doug Firs, and north by about 40 ft from a cluster of cedar trees. These trees are all in the 100 ft tall range.

Sooo... Jacke's Edible Forest Garden covers the eastern US primarily.  It says that elderberry can handle open woods and forest. Most of what else is in my area is Bracken, Oregon Grape, creeping blackberry, and a couple of small Red Huckleberry.

Has anyone had experience with Elderberry in this ecosystem, and do you think they'll survive there with a little careful planting?

Are you mostly concerned about shade or something else?

We have elderberry growing wild here. The last few years it's been spreading more through a narrow east-west gully. There's bracken on the slopes of the gully, but closer to the creek it's mostly lady ferns. The bottom of the gully is blackberry and thimble berry, the slopes cottonwood, aspen, and birch, with increasing numbers of maple. Higher up near the top of the gully walls, especially on the north, there start to be more conifers, mostly white pine. The elderberry is growing in some pretty shady spots down there. It fruits later than the ones growing on rocky, sun baked ground. The fruit is bigger, juicier, and more bland.

Elderberry doesn't seem picky. We've got it growing on top of rock ridges, surrounded by stunted Oregon grape, no other trees nearby. We've also got it growing in areas that flood for two to four months every year.

We have elderberry wild here, too. I see it on the edges of town, growing in the ditches. At higher elevations, where there’s fewer people, it’s often on the north, downward side of rocky slopes where water catches a bit during snow melt; in those cases, it’s usually standing nearly alone with some grasses and low-growing herbaceous perennials.

I was also just up in the panhandle of Idaho and saw it nearly everywhere I turned on the edges of forested areas and near (but not in) stream banks.

Jan White wrote:Are you mostly concerned about shade or something else?

Elderberry doesn't seem picky. We've got it growing on top of rock ridges, surrounded by stunted Oregon grape, no other trees nearby. We've also got it growing in areas that flood for two to four months every year.

Shade is a primary concern, acid soil second, our extremes of wet vs drought is a third.  Thank you so much for your observations, as that gives me hope, but the only 3 elderberry shrubs I've met since I got here, all died. One got "helped" because guys don't listen... but I think the second got out-competed - hence the how much shade is too much concern. The third was in a garden that should have had sufficient management for it to survive, but there may have been ineffective management there that was a factor even though I'm not aware of other things dying.  

The friend that gave these to me seems to think I should get them in the ground right away, so I'm hoping to hear more from members like you that have observations I might be able to put to use. We've had no significant rain since July 7 and none in the forecast. Just digging holes could defeat us, so I *really* don't want to dig in a spot where they'll have no hope. They're a useful medicinal plant, and I'd like to have one to hand!

I think I will try the rock mulch approach as it does seem to help in this ecosystem.

Shawn Foster wrote:... it’s often on the north, downward side of rocky slopes where water catches a bit during snow melt; in those cases, it’s usually standing nearly alone with some grasses and low-growing herbaceous perennials.

On a north slope the snow would melt more slowly, so the summer drought would be "delayed" by that melt water.  I'm worried about how lack of moisture in the summer will stress it. It sounds like I will need to plant some punky wood nearby to help hold water. I suspect the area I'm looking at is too shaded for most grasses, but maybe I can figure out some ground cover that won't compete too much for the water the Elderberry will need. Spring bulbs are supposed to work in that capacity - dying back as the water is needed by the larger plants.

They definitely grow in places where there’s water deep down, though surface water seems to be much less necessary. I’ve also had a couple fail in my yard; however, I’d planted them in 2021 when we had a very early, very hot summer that crisped up most of my plants and they were among the casualties. I usually just forage for them now. However, I’m interested in what you find useful in establishing them, as we’re moving in the next two years and I’d like to try again.

I thought the Native species on the west coast was Blue Elderberry, or do both of them occur there?

D Tucholske wrote:I thought the Native species on the west coast was Blue Elderberry, or do both of them occur there?

Yes it is, but I have looked all over my property and I haven't seen any. The two that were here and died, I never saw any fruit and didn't know enough about the subtle differences to have determined if they were the native species, or imported from elsewhere. There in no "undisturbed native forest" on my land.

The rooted cuttings I was given were give to my friend from a third party, from the large city near me. Odds are the donor plant was originally acquired from a nursery.  So I could be wrong about it being S. canadensis, but I really won't know until it fruits, assuming I can keep it alive that long!

I grew up next to a smallish lake in ohio and my grandmother was insistent that I row her across the lake to harvest the elderberries that grew there.  She claimed that they were better than the ones that grew on the farm we lived on.  Who can say?  I do know they were essentially growing in muck and water overall and would stain you purple for days after.

I cannot address the northwest on this topic, but I have to wonder if they are even the same variety of berry?  Likely not.

Elderberry is one thing I've experimented with a lot out here, including canadensis, our native cerulea, and nigra (european black elderberry)

My experience is that the native one is hands down a drought tolerant winner. There may be some cultivars of black, such as Ranch, that might do better than others, but overall my impression is that black elderberry isn't evolved for the extended dry season we have. Blue elderberry, on the other hand, does very well, is often a pioneer species, and grows on hills and in generally difficult conditions.

Black elderberry does well for me in areas to wet to grow much else

If you can water it, even at maturity, then I say go for it. I had some growing at my old place (both kinds). Even after years of establishing the black elderberries they struggled and died back during our heat waves even with mulch and watering. The blue doubled in size. This has been my observation at multiple farms and properties

Thank you James Landreth for that great information. I have emailed me the friend who brought me the rooted cuttings to see if she can find out from her source which Elderberry it is.

Do you have any ideas how I could identify the species based on just a first year cutting with leaves? I read that the berries are different, but it could be several years before I get fruit.

The joys of gifts from strange places! I think I will change the subject on this thread, as I'm "definitely not sure" exactly what I'm dealing with - and have no idea whether information from my friend will be accurate.

James Landreth's comments are spot on for black and blue elderberry preferences. We are planting our black elderberries in the wettest part of our land in coastal BC, on the assumption the summer drought and heat will only get worse in coming years. (When I grew them on the east coast, they were also in a damp semi-shaded spot.) We have no blue elderberries yet but are hoping to get some started from seed to plant up the hill in the drier loamy-sand area, as we often see them growing wild on exposed, seasonally droughty mountain slopes.

I'm not sure about preferred shade conditions for either of these in the PNW. I feel that moisture is more important, so if putting black elderberries in semi-shade will help keep them from drying out, I'd be inclined to do that. I think I'd avoid anything approaching full shade although that might be an interesting experiment if there's more soil moisture there.

In any case, it would be a good idea to watch the soil moisture carefully during the first couple of years while they are establishing, and water as frequently as needed. After that they should be a bit better at handling summer drought but depending where you plant them are likely to still need watering. If you see them dying back to the soil level and trying to resprout, that's a sure sign that they need more water.

We have native red elderberry at our place too, although it is unlikely that's what your friend gave you, Jay, I'll mention them for completeness as they are also pretty common in the PNW. We found large and thriving red elderberry bushes growing on top of huge logging slash piles left by the previous owner of the property, with very little soil, suggesting they are not too fussy about conditions. We've since planted out cuttings on a long hugelkultur bed on the edge of the woods. Literature suggests the berries are not safe for human consumption but possibly the flowers can be used like other elderflowers. Still figuring that out.

This in from my friend: "It is Black elderberry.
The tree in the yard here doesn't get watered specifically but benefits from the lawn being watered."

That's not such good news from my perspective, as I've got loads of dry areas, but very few wet areas. One wet area is very shaded - I'd say deep shade. The two things I intentionally planted there both died, however some of that was due to Himalayan Blackberry invading... sigh... that stuff seems to grow vigorously anywhere!

Considering that our summer drought seems to be extending into October, so far, I'd be inclined to pot them up and water them until November (surely it will rain by then!) or whenever the soil gets wetter and easier to dig.  A big part of that suggestion is waiting until we get rain so it will be easier to dig, because I'm going to recommend some extra digging :).  I would try to dig a fairly big hole for them, fill the bottom with rotted wood (preferably with mycelia) to make a mini-underground-hugel, and don't fill the hole all the way - leave a wide depression that will catch water around the plant so you end up with a sort of individual-plant-circular-swale. This might give them a better chance.

If compatible with your site layout, I'd also recommend planting them somewhere where you will often see them and remember to water if necessary. Zone 1, eh? But even within zone 1, specifically in a spot that is a destination or on the way to somewhere you go frequently, not out of sight, because (for me at least) that often is the kiss of death for plants that need extra TLC. If I see them often, I'm far more likely to remember to check and water them. I was on a tour of a permaculture market farm last weekend where the farmer uses that principle in an interesting way - he plants rows of strawberries under newly planted fruit trees and maintains them there for the first three years so that the trees will for sure get checked on frequently during their establishment years while he is there picking strawberries.

I hear you Andrea, unfortunately, our property is very long with narrow "managed" areas, and great big fir and cedar trees breaking up the managed areas. The wonderful Permaculture Zones theory is pretty useless!

So first, here is a before picture of where I plan to plant the two babies:


I've now taken the hedge trimmer through to try to knock back some of the prickliest stuff, and the next picture was taken just before digging:


Yes - digging at this time of year isn't the greatest either, but this area isn't as bad as some areas where I feel like the only way is dynamite (or at least our rock drill!)
This next picture shows the depth of the hole and all the rocks I relocated during the digging process. The bucket gives some idea of the size. It seems that the rocks can create a bit of an "air well" effect and trap some of the dew we get. At least that's the theory.


I didn't have to look far, to the south and east of the hole to collect enough rocks to complete the ring.


I've also collected up some punky wood I'd left near a garden area, and I have it soaking in buckets of water. My hope is that if I put "pre-soaked" wood in the hole around the shrub, that will help reduce the need for constant attention until the rain arrives. I may also try digging a trench 4-5 feet up slope and dumping wood in that to try and hold this winter's  rain longer in the spring. With the weird shape of our property, watering anything usually involves carrying watering cans, or dragging long hoses, so ideally it will manage with once a week care at the most. This spot is an area I go past once or twice/day, so if I leave a watering can handy, it won't be a huge detour to visit it. I may also plant a holey pipe with it so I can water below the surface area, which is very helpful.

Unfortunately due to space limitations, my friend rooted 3 branches in a single pot, then disturbed the roots by removing one branch for herself. I'm concerned that if I don't just get them in the ground, it will be impossible to separate the roots without damaging them a lot. Equally unfortunately, my hole doesn't look nearly as deep 2 days after digging it, than it seemed at the time!  Too bad - I'm off to dig the next hole. I'm willing to give these rooted cuttings a chance, but it's an imperfect world and I've already got too many plants in pots that really need their "forever" homes, and they will need much more significant invasive plant clearance before that happens... If only this land wasn't as good at growing rocks and Himalayan blackberry as it is!

Jay, that looks exactly like my old property. Three acres of narrow and steep land. In the areas that aren’t bedrock at the surface, large conifers, maples and Garry oaks wedged into little pockets of dry shallow soil. Anyone who has ever seen it doesn’t ask why we decided to move to get more serious about farming. So I hear ya!

I like what you’ve done. We seem to have been on the same page for how to do this.

Good luck! Let us know how it turns out.

Jay Angler wrote:Thank you James Landreth for that great information. I have emailed me the friend who brought me the rooted cuttings to see if she can find out from her source which Elderberry it is.

Do you have any ideas how I could identify the species based on just a first year cutting with leaves? I read that the berries are different, but it could be several years before I get fruit.

The joys of gifts from strange places! I think I will change the subject on this thread, as I'm "definitely not sure" exactly what I'm dealing with - and have no idea whether information from my friend will be accurate.

I'm glad it was helpful! You should be able to tell by the leaves, for future reference. I don't know how to describe it but I bet the internet or a plant ID app can.


One other thing to know that I forgot to mention is size. Black elderberry stays smaller and is generally classified as a shrub. Blue can get to thirty feet. Both are short lived by tree standards, going to sixty to seventy years on average. But bigger means a deeper, more drought tolerant root system

Jay Angler wrote:This in from my friend: "It is Black elderberry.
The tree in the yard here doesn't get watered specifically but benefits from the lawn being watered."

Oh really - maybe not...  I asked more questions and got back this:

"This plant will have dark purple leaves, grow to 9ft and have red or pink berries. Check out Red Elder. Lots of medicinal and nutritive benefits."

That sounds to me like it's Sambucus racemosa: https://nativeplantspnw.com/red-elderberry-sambucus-racemosa/

Since that's native to this region, it's more likely to cope with our weather, so I consider that good news, however it reinforces my concern that I've been given something that's clearly an elderberry, but I may have to simply carry on, hope for the best, and let it grow a little before being sure of what it is. I don't have a plant ID app - maybe I should, but technology isn't my strong suit. I will post a picture of the babies here in the next day or two and you wonderful people can all vote on it!

This research paper has info on how the indigenous peoples used red elder and also references to the toxicity.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030544030200242X?via%3Dihub

The above link only gives you the abstract and a paywall to the full paper - I can’t attach the link to the free full paper but if you go into Google Scholar and search for the paper it should show that pdf link for free access.

The short answer is they cooked it in various ways and spit out the seeds which removed some but not all of the toxicity.

Personally I do not eat the berries of red elderberries as all the reading I’ve done suggests the toxicity is higher than black or blue elderberry, so why take the chance. The evidence is less clear for the flower of red elderberry and I’ve been trying to find published analytical results but so far without luck. If anyone has that information I’d love to see it. Otherwise one of these days I might get in touch with an analytical lab and try to get comparative analyses on the various Sambucus species berries and flowers to find out for sure. That might have to wait until we have blue elderberry growing on our land as I would like to include it in that comparison. Until I see some data I’m not consuming any red elderberry products, we are solely planting for wildlife habitat and native plant biodiversity.

So coming back to Jay’s cuttings, the bad news is you might not be able to use it yourself, the good news is it might be less work to keep alive.

I will try to get decent photos of our black and red elderberry plants this week for identification purposes and post those in case it helps your identification, Jay.  

Yeah, growing up I learned that S. nigra was edible, and S. racemosa toxic. But from some things I've heard and read since then, it would appear that most (all?) species of elderberries are toxic raw, and even cooked unless you remove the seeds. A friend of mine made something, a pie I believe, from S. nigra berries and neglected to remove the seeds, and got violently sick...

Here are pictures I took of the babies:




Ideas and opinions are welcome, but I may well have to wait until they're old enough to make fruit. As mentioned above, they will feed the birds and create biomass regardless.

Yes - Eino Kenttä - from what I've read, they're more a medicinal than a "food", and I would be very cautious about the seeds. I have used a commercial Elderberry syrup before, and did not react negatively, but I would be very cautious about dose level if I use the plant I'm growing. How a plant grows and where can affect its medicinal strength from my understanding.

A couple of thoughts: There are cultivars of Sambucus nigra with more or less coloured leaves and flowers. It is possible if your cuttings were taken from a landscaping plant it is one of these cultivars.
One thing I found that may possibly help is that Sambucus nigra does have slightly unpleasant smelling leaves. this site mentions that for Sambucus nigra, but not for Sambucus cerulea or Sambucus racemosa. I'm only familiar with Sambucus nigra, but this could possibly be a way of confirming which species it is. Ken Fern also mentions the smell for S nigra and not the other two.

Any update on the success of raising the Elderberries?  

I am a native to the PNW, growing up in the Cascade foothills.  Native Elderberries are everywhere between elevations of 500 to 1000 ft, deep in the 2nd and 3rd generation conifer forests.  My ex and I used to wild forage them for homemade cough syrup, jams and syrups and meads.  I also remember reading that Elderberries were used often by Native Americans medically.  

Curious to see how growing them will work.

Kyle L Johnson wrote:Any update on the success of raising the Elderberries?  

It's really too soon to tell. They are both still alive, but I'm barely 50 ft above sea level - not 500 ft. We've had weird weather this fall, and a very dry November. The real test will be next summer!

Sure, it will. In coastal lowlands of the Northwest, the Sambucus grows in the shady understory of Douglas Fir forests. Now, I think the other species of Sambucus, the blue one that grows more east towards the Cascades grows more out in the open. Nonetheless it should do fine.