Is anyone really doing permaculture?

I think it's more about balancing the system than an equation. Meat and annuals both have places in a permaculture system for many people.

Great discussion, really enjoyed it. I think we all have these doubts every once in a while (but not everybody is brave enough to sound them off here ) I also wanted to add 2 more comments in reply to the original post -

1) Collin is absolutely right that very few permaculture farmers make enough money to quit the "real" job but this is also true for most of conventional farms. I know a few dozens of farmers at least, some with hundreds of acres and they all have daytime jobs or they're retired or their children have jobs and so on. The only exception is families that run huge farms with thousands of acres but even these guys made most of their fortunes from selling land during the boom years. Corn subsidies are screwing the food prices so much it's very difficult to make enough money by producing food, whether you do it organically, permaculturaly or while swimming in chemicals.

2) Having to reinvent the wheel is extremely frustrating but I think it's unavoidable. Why? Because even in conventional farming with its simplified controlled systems, dozens of universities and labs and 5 extension publications for every topic imaginable there are no simple answers and they've been studying it for over 150 years. Almost nothing the extension agents tell you works as advertised, or sometimes it works one year but not the next or it works on one pasture but not on the one next to it. To many variables and feedback loops, I guess. So, yes - no mass produced wheels here Each one has to be custom made from scratch.

For whatever it worth, our sheep operation is more profitable now than it was back in the "conventional" days.

I strongly believe 100% food self-sufficiency is possible.

Is it desirable? Well, that is up to each of you.
It's certainly a lot of work. But possible.

Much easier if you are a vegetarian and you live closer to the tropics.
The further near the poles you live, the more you must rely on animals and even that will be hard work (saving hay for winter).
In Iceland, where I am it's very hard but possible, because farmers and outlaws were doing it in past centuries. In rural places in the tropics, many families are also totally food self-sufficiency, they grow their own starch, oil and protein. Even in south Europe, many families were self-sufficient during complicated periods such as during WWII (mostly in poultry, eggs, bread, potatoes and pulses).

In a warm temperate climate, its much easier to be 100% food self-sufficient. The easiest is to be a vegetarian (saves space and work) and complement with eggs. You rely in combination of cereals and pulses, roots and perhaps nuts. Alternatively you can chose to be self-sufficient for all except eggs and milk, and that is also doable. If you want to reach this goal, you should focus in calories and staples, not growing all those kinds of tomatoes or apples, which provide little calories.

You must grow perhaps 200m2 (>40Kg) of cereal crops, 100m2 of pulses (>20 Kg), and 100m2 (>40 kg) of potatoes (and other roots such as swedes or sweet potatoes), plus vegetable plots, fruit trees, perennial staple vegetables (roots, pulses), oil crops (olives, sunflower, chia, pumpkin, sesame) and also nuts (a couple of trees should suffice). You grow both winter pulses and cereals (broad beans, peas, rye, barley, oats), and summer pulses and cereals (corn, millet, quinoa, amaranth, beans, lentils, chickpeas, cowpeas, soy beans). Obviously I am suggesting annuals because everyone is used to them. In all, 1 acre is the minimal size. And it will be hard work.

You must also do lots of canning, drying, freezing, and clever storing, but if you plan to grow in succesion, then you should have fresh food for most of the year, if your climate has a mild and small winter.

Of course, the good thing about permaculture is that is allows us to do things such as intercropping (saves space, increases yield), perennial sources of food (such as nuts, pigeon peas, yams, arrowhead, groundnut), growing n-fixers (to give you fertility and also plenty of mulching material and fodder for the chicken, if you keep these). I also believe that with time, one could establish a perennial food forest to provide 100% food self-sufficiency, but this is way more challenging!

I haven't addressed any other needs, such as some income, energy, heating, transport. I think 100% self-sufficiency in all fields is undesirable, but the concept of 100% food independence really appeals to me, especially if done by a small community or farm. It can also be fun.

not growing all those kinds of tomatoes or apples, which provide little calories.

Perhaps tomatoes have few calories, but they can certainly make that big plate of pasta go down the throat easier.

Tomatoes, peppers, onions, garlic (sofrito) and many other low calorie annuals help create palatable meals out many cereals, grains and pulses. [Spaghetti, chili, black beans, stews...you name it] They also supplement the nutrients that many staples lack.

The apples, with perhaps some raisins and/or nuts thrown in sure make that (calorie rich) pie crust (made with lard of course) seem like a treat.

I suggest growing 70% of energy, oil and protein rich staples (cereals, roots, nuts and pulses), and 30% of those nutrient packed vegetables. Preferably perennials.

Of course, vitamins and minerals are important. I don´t say to stop growing tomatoes and salads, but if we want to find an answer to the question "Is Anyone Out There Actually, Really, Truly Doing This? I Mean, Really?" then we must focus more in staples rather than salads and fruits.

Right now I am growing a few beds with broad beans, rye and swedes, for the winter. In summer I grow other pulses, potatoes and other cereals. Then, some area for veggies and berries. My thought is that if I grow a area of 400m2 (50 square feet) of those staples, then I should at least have food for most of the year (except nuts and animal produce).

John Polk wrote:

not growing all those kinds of tomatoes or apples, which provide little calories.

Perhaps tomatoes have few calories, but they can certainly make that big plate of pasta go down the throat easier.

Tomatoes, peppers, onions, garlic (sofrito) and many other low calorie annuals help create palatable meals out many cereals, grains and pulses. [Spaghetti, chili, black beans, stews...you name it] They also supplement the nutrients that many staples lack.

The apples, with perhaps some raisins and/or nuts thrown in sure make that (calorie rich) pie crust (made with lard of course) seem like a treat.

if I grow a area of 400m2 (50 square feet)

I don't know how you are making your metric/imperial conversions, but they are grossly wrong.

400m² = 4305ft²

400 metres = 437.3 yards = 1311.4 feet

50ft² = 4.6451522m²

Hi John,

Thank you for your correction. I work only with metric system. I converted in a totally wrong way (assuming feet would be smaller than meter, than the other way around!)

I kind of evaluated more accurately the estimated needs for a person (roughly, because this varies widely according to taste), and therefore how much land is required to grow those staples: 15 kg dried beans (150m2), 80 kg potatoes (80m2), wheat or rye 45 kg (150m2), amaranth 2.5 kg (50m2), corn 15 kg (37m2), rice 18 kg (60m2). This gives 527m2 for staple starches and protein. To this, we must sum space for crops for oils (seeds), other starchy root crops, compost (green manures), fodder (for chicken), wood (fuel), nuts, berries and fruits, other perennial vegetables, and conventional vegetables. This is easier in warmer climates, due to the need to rely less on animals produce and therefore requiring less land. I estimate that, in those climates, at least 1 acre should be enough for entire food self-sufficiency, depending on how far we want to go. I will continue this study.

great thread - I'm still at the observing snail phase but can we learn a lot from this bit of Geoff's fascinating tour... in particular
http://youtu.be/ASNVqSEEk1U?t=21m3s
The 'main crop area' the broad area crop for the kitchens that produces the 'bulk' food somewhere where 'you can't take too many risks'.
Annual crops of sweet potato,potato broad bean, cabbage, wheat in a large open area, where's the forest, where are the perennial plants ? , where's the diversity?
If I want to concentrate on producing enough calories to feed myself is this what my small area of land should look like? I was hoping to find a dozen or so perennial equivalents to match the caloric punch of the likes of potato and corn. Looks like I still have a lot to learn...

Tyler Ludens wrote:

James Driscoll wrote:I was hoping to find a dozen or so perennial equivalents to match the caloric punch of the likes of potato and corn.

Have you studied this website at all: http://perennialvegetables.org/

Thanks for the link Tyler, yeh I have Eric's Toensmeier's book and, possibly more appropriate for my neck of the woods(North UK), I've just started going through Martin Crawford's how to grow Perennial Vegetables. Sadly neither book has calories per 100g (or a typical serving size for a particular plant) which I guess is what I'm looking for . I'm not about to move to Hawaii but I think the take home message from the .2 acre plot experiment by Norris Thomlinson and Tulsi Latosk and what I've been reading so far on the subject is that it's 'relatively' easy to provide enough 'greens/herbs' but I need my 2000 calories a day I found it fascinating that that the way Geoff Lawton seems to be getting his 'bulk' is by what I think of as annual 'staple' crops in a very open space. I thought permaculture was all about the edge so I'm wanting to find some calories there OK, I'm joking a little, I appreciate many hours of sunlight is what's required but as a lazy gardener planting once and harvesting lots of times appeals to me and I'm going to need something to eat until this country has enough mature walnut trees...

Just for info, there's a similar interesting comment from Martin Crawford around the 6 minute mark here,
http://permaculture.tv/martin-crawfords-food-forest-at-schumacher-college/

You don't use a forest garden (at least at my latitude) to obtain a staple carbohydrate crop. I'd still like some high carb perennial crops I can grow in an open space though. Sorry if this is starting to stray from the OP but I think obtaining high carb staple food in a 'permaculture environment' (whatever that means!) might be the same topic

James Driscoll wrote:

Tyler Ludens wrote:

James Driscoll wrote:I was hoping to find a dozen or so perennial equivalents to match the caloric punch of the likes of potato and corn.

Have you studied this website at all: http://perennialvegetables.org/

Thanks for the link Tyler, yeh I have Eric's Toensmeier's book and, possibly more appropriate for my neck of the woods(North UK), I've just started going through Martin Crawford's how to grow Perennial Vegetables. Sadly neither book has calories per 100g (or a typical serving size for a particular plant) which I guess is what I'm looking for . I'm not about to move to Hawaii but I think the take home message from the .2 acre plot experiment by Norris Thomlinson and Tulsi Latosk and what I've been reading so far on the subject is that it's 'relatively' easy to provide enough 'greens/herbs' but I need my 2000 calories a day I found it fascinating that that the way Geoff Lawton seems to be getting his 'bulk' is by what I think of as annual 'staple' crops in a very open space. I thought permaculture was all about the edge so I'm wanting to find some calories there OK, I'm joking a little, I appreciate many hours of sunlight is what's required but as a lazy gardener planting once and harvesting lots of times appeals to me and I'm going to need something to eat until this country has enough mature walnut trees...

I understand. Eric's site has a ton more info than his book, but it's isn't organized so that I can reference my area. (If Eric happens to read this, a more advanced search function or even a raw list of items with zone/general climate would help.)

Generally speaking, a starchy vegetable is going to provide about 4 kcal per gram of edible part. That doesn't count undigestable fiber, and some of the tuber crops are quite fibrous, which can be good for your health but doesn't provide raw caloric energy. Corn and potatoes have very little insoluble fiber, so they pack a lot of calories in a small package. Proteins are also 4 kcal per gram; fats have 9 kcal per gram. So if a description says it contains essential oils or fatty acids, you're going to get a bit of a caloric boost.

Wikipedia has the nutrition content of many unusual vegetables.

If you haven't discovered http://www.pfaf.org, that's a good resource, too.

What about chestnuts? That's a high carb staple crop.

Tyler Ludens wrote:

Nicole Castle wrote: a raw list of items with zone/general climate would help.

General climates are listed on the website. http://perennialvegetables.org/

Yes. None of the "browse by climate" apply to a zone 7 humid subtropical -- what they'd call the "mid-south." All you can do is browse through every list and look up every plant elsewhere. That has value, but it's a pain in the behind.

Well, the lady I have been working for this summer almost gave it up this summer after 12 years of organic gardening. Last year was really wet and so I think it caused there to be more insects this year and then in July it didn't rain at all. So it was a perfect storm for pests. But The harvest is going well. I mulched a lot in early summer and that really helped things through the drought, but insect damage took a big toll.

I think you have to put your heart and soul into it and also be really patient and humble and keep struggling to find solutions. That's my opinion. Failure is a constant companion. This lady has a wealth of knowledge too but different years different things don't work out. Farming is humbling.

I think trying to do this without fruit in a temperate climate is a mistake. James-I talked to Norris and Tulsi and Norris agreed that he should have grown some fruit trees. Partly it's because you are just giving up the 3D vertical space. Quince or Asian pear is astonishingly productive in my area, and you get a lot more calories off of fruit than vegies. Many varieties also store for months and months in winter as well. One other problem with just vegies is that you don't get enough digging deep into the soil to get the minerals, and the tree and the leaves keep adding to the soil year after year. Also fruit tastes great, fights cancer, and can be made into crisp, pies, etc. Most temperate areas are natural forests so fighting against that is fighting against nature-usually a bad idea.
John S
PDX OR

I totally get Collins question! From my experience, there are a ton of people who are "into" permaculture that do little to nothing with it. I can't count the number of people I'm known or come across throughout the years who took workshops and design courses and didn't produce as much as a few salads a week. I've never taken a class and probably won't and have out produced them on the tiny plots I had. Even when I lived in an apartment, I had food growing in cardboard boxes and plastic planters outside. It has been rough the past year and a half not having a garden, but I've just bought six acres of land and I'm eager to get my homestead going.

It can be easy to lose confidence in permaculture if you listen to people who flap their gums all the time but produce nothing. They often have loads of criticisms about what you're doing and love to tell you how you should do it. I've learned to ignore them and press on. While they're exercising their vocal cords, I'll be enjoying fresh veggies with little work to maintain them.

I guess it all depends on how you define 'This'. We have a 1/4 acre lot with 50 fruit trees with plans to go to 70, and run our system on the Will Allen model minus the greenhouses. It isn't a food forest, its more like a food jungle. It's ridiculous! We have mature 70' trees, medium trees, and babies. They all thrive and put out lots of new growth. Under all that canope we grow tomatoes, kale, aloe, cactus, strawberries, broccoli, peppers, herbs and lots of others. We just installed an aquaponics system and plan to start doing talapia next year. Already, even without the pond being stocked, the plants in the aquaponics system are amazing.

We also keep our goats and chickens at a local equestrian center. We feed our goats green waste from local farmer's markets and tree cuttings from any arborist we can chase down, and weeds from local fields. Animal feed winds up being 90% recycled green waste and 10% organic grain for training purposes, and no we don't grow the grain, we buy it from Azure. All the muckings go right back into our garden either as top dressing or into the compost bins. Our soil is amazing and gets better every year.

And our pest management is spot on! We haven't had any real pest problems for several years now. We have a thick cloud of spiders, hornets, wasps, bees, mantis, katydids, ladybugs, hummingbirds, flycatchers, bushtits, starlings, frogs, lizards and opossums who eat anything remotely resembling an aphid, worm or beetle. Ponds and native trees are the key here as they provide habitat for our frogs, birds, and beneficial insects, and most of the birds live on our property. They also shade and cool our home so we don't need to run the AC, ever. Our utility bills are about a fifth of the average.

Every year our trees and animals produce more food, we lose less to pests and waste, our food bill goes down, and the nutrient content goes up. We aren't fully sustainable quite yet, but we're getting really close. Once our avocado, cherimoya, apple, citrus, banana and peach groves get a little more mature we'll have enough to sell/trade. At our current rate that looks like about three to five more years, the good Lord willing.



So no, we aren't quite there, but we're moving there.

greg patrick wrote:So no, we aren't quite there, but we're moving there.

It stories like this greg that make me think this is the road I want to go down. I know it's a serious task to undertake but detailing a years harvest from this type of plot is the sort of thing that would expand on the fantastic work already undertaken by the .2acre project. Knowing what the inputs were and and what you got out would add so much to our knowledge. (and also add to your work load quite a bit too!). I'm not sure there is enough Sun where I am to have such a density of trees but if I spread that out over an acre.....

We use a bunch of different high density orchard management tools. We have a few espalier/fans, most of our trees are grafted on dwarfing root stocks, many are in containers to control growth, some are essentially multiple trees/pollinators in single holes. We're trying all the tricks. Right now were in the process of converting our front yard and driveway into an orchard. So far we have six cherimoya, three avos, four bananas, five citrus, a pomegranate and berries in two half barrels. Next up are to add raised beds, a picket fence, swales and ponds in the front, plus another dozen trees and a talapia tank in the driveway. Last on the list of projects is to replace the pine trees on both sides of the house with edibles.

And there is NO way I'm going to be keeping track of my harvest. I keep track by how much I need to buy at the market vs weighing things. Maybe once we're in full production it will be worth while to do, but right now I'm just happy to see flushes of new growth on all the trees and to to see everything setting fruit.

On a side note, once we started top dressing regularly with goat pen muckings, our garden has gone NUTS. Our almond is only four months old and is already 10+ feet high. In one year several of our avos are already 8+ feet tall. We also have apples that set fruit twice a year now, and our pineapple guavas are the size of hand grenades!

It's entirely understandable you don't want to weigh and log your harvest Greg I appreciate it's a serious chore Still, logging how many calories you are buying in would give an insight.(or keeping a food diary for a week or two and knowing what came from your land). Norris Thomlinson has kindly offered to send me the software he used to log on the.2 acre plot. If I can stick a Web interface on the front of it I'll share with the community but it will still be time consuming to weigh and log harvests. I appreciate permaculture is more than the calories but I think high calorie yields are pretty important.

Many of my trees are still immature so we aren't getting anything near what we will be getting in say five years. The thirteen avocados alone will produce well over our needs. While most of our fifty fruit trees give us some fruit, only five are mature right now. I cut down our old spent peaches and a 40 year old lemon and replaced them with wips that will take awhile to replace the lost production. Here are some pics of our jungle on another thread: https://permies.com/forums/posts/list/40/15282

Current daily production: 1L milk, four eggs, five hand grenade sized pineapple guavas, a dozen or so limes, four Fuji apples, lots of kale and tomatoes (more than we can eat), a few bell peppers, cucumbers and squash a week, and some greens.

Coming soon: Persimmons, Naval Oranges and a HUGE batch of limes!

So far most of what we've had to eat today we've produced: Breakfast: Garden grazing. Lunch: Ice Cream made with goat milk, fresh eggs, some honey from the farmer's market, spices, coconut oil and chocolate powder from Azure.

What I see as a potential problem here is that the real experimenters and leaders in this field (that we know about) are the people who have taken the time out to write a book or start teaching as a way to make all or part of their income.

What I see in this forum are ALOT of people who also have valuable experience from their successes (and failures) at attempting this way of life that will never stop long enough to write a book, but who will absolutely contribute in small bits to the community via this forum and other places.

It seems to me that it would be really helpful to start a open source group wiki where we can organize alot of the meaningful information contained in these peoples heads plus the experiences of this forum into a way for someone to easily disseminate into a permies wiki/book of some kind. This could greatly improve the learning curve of someone interested in learning permaculture that doesn't know where to start or who to follow, and in a way that is completely free to the public without buying alot of these books to glean little differences of information (not to cheapen the great experiences of alot of these writers, I just have personally bought dozens of books that are 70% of the same information so that I can learn a bit more about the 30% thats different)

If we believe in this lifestyle as a way to heal the earth, lets work together to create a learning material that we can distribute to everyone that will provide a legitimate case for permaculture plus the steps to achieve the lifestyle in their own lives! We would obviously want them to come to this resource for questions and community participation, but it would be great to see more organization of the valuable information retained in the archives and minds of the people on this forum! I look at places like http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/LifeTrac and think, there needs to be a place to do this for permaculture!

My two cents

I think Ivan is right. I also wonder about how many people who are really truly doing this and gave up the internet, so we don't get their opinions. Or maybe they still use the internet but only for certain things. Either way, I know I would love learning to be easier. I too get tired of sifting through things I have read to death just to find that other 30% that I hadn't yet found.
There's my two cents, between the two of us we can almost buy an old nickel candy!

Edit: My apologies, I forgot to /cheer for Greg, I love your grenade sized guavas! guava is something we aren't too familiar with but my boyfriend was in the military so he caught a glimpse of your picture and gasped "what is that!" ...Food can be such great entertainment sometimes.

Ivan Mayes wrote: I look at places like http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/LifeTrac and think, there needs to be a place to do this for permaculture!

Has Paul already started one??
https://permies.com/wiki/index.php?n=Permaculture.Permaculture

Although I think it's a great idea I've never found wiki's to be the most tech friendly things for people to contribute to, it might be time consuming to get the entries organised - maybe Paul can comment on how long the wiki link has been on this site and how much enthusiasm it's received...
(again I'm conscious of the drift from the original post maybe this should be moved to a wiki thread...Sorry Collin but I blame you for writing such an interesting question )

I think the wikki software is broken at the moment. We've had a few people offer to get the wikki up and running, but so far it's always fizzled out, and now it doesn't even work at all. I don't have time/energy to take anything else on at the moment, and wouldn't have a clue how fix broken software. If anyone out there is serious about it and knows how to program I'm sure we could try again.

Practical plants is starting:

http://practicalplants.org

So we can help it become what Ivan says and that I warmly agree with!

And right also about th big problem of conveying the same info by 70% (in books but also in the web)
So I do not believe in making something universal at only one place. What will happen when there will be more than 500 different wiki?
If only we could first apply permaculture, and its energy saving, to the knowledge spreading?

The thing about permaculture and all the related info is that it seems to have so many facets that you really couldn't cram it all into any one book. I'm finding that each book on the topic hits it from a slightly different angle. This makes one book or another a better resource for any one given person or project. Personally I think that having as many real books on hand as possible is a huge benefit. There are times when the net is not available or when it's not convenient. If there were ever a time when that net was down for an indeterminate amount of time then at least you could carry on with the books you have. Even if that means a large overlap in the info they contain, it's worth it to have them on hand. No net = no info.

A wiki would be great but having it open source would lend it to sabotage much like any other wiki. I'm not saying it's not worth doing, but perhaps there should be a vetting process for the info added. Something like a council of elders, to keep an eye out for bogus additions would be a nice way to go.

I didn't realize Paul had a wiki already set up. After I finish a freelance project I will try to dedicate some time to help organize and get some things started on it.

I agree about having books on hand, and each perspective is different, especially for the days that you need to come back and reference something quickly. I think the wiki's purpose would be to ease people into the idea of permaculture and how to get started in a way that is close to alot of these books, but free. Also I see it as a valuable tool for people to quickly have a platform to show what they are doing in their garden and write a quick article that shows design and examples of how they are using permaculture in their lives, which is what Collin was referencing in his second or third post.

I love how they do it on this site http://our.windowfarms.org/. They've open sourced a window garden and let the community submit all their creations and come together to find the sort of best configuration all together. The site functions as a way for anyone to go write a post about their implementation and talk about what they did and why, its awesome to see everyone's creativity with the project and to see the different results!

I don't think we are ever going to have a true "model" that works in every environment and climate, but I think we can all benefit from seeing everyone else's work in a more organized way than the forums. For instance, one of the things I have never seen in any book is workable examples for the southeast around Zone 7, most examples from US authors are west coast climates, or colder northern areas without really hot summers. I'd love to be able to open a page and see peoples workable examples from climates closer to mine as a source of inspiration!

It does seem as though access to land would be the most important first step. Banks aren't really lending to young people, especially to ones who are heavily in debt. I highly doubt the permacultural business model impresses the banks also, be it IS the competition. I also imagine the more dollars some one has the less likely they would be to invest holy in the overall scheme of things.

Sure, some one could be doing this all off the grid and under the radar, but how we would we know? Do we want to see some huge bag of vegetables with a dollar receipt as proof, would that be the evidence? Would some one talking about permaculture without property be a problem or the solution?

Haven't read all of the replies, just the question on this post... seems like too much to filter through still.

I think everyone should be talking about permaculture. Permaculture can be practiced in a backyard, one doesn't need "land" in the sense of agricultural land. It can be practiced in community gardens or on shared land. Not owning land needn't be a barrier to people practicing permaculture, in my opinion.

Tyler - I like your comment "I think everyone should be talking about permaculture".

In the Mollison lecture that I just watched he talks about which side of the building that windows should be placed. He was discussing an urban educational building. And he was talking about permaculture. It doesn't always have to be about growing food.

I think in most climates (and I mean most not all) and under most conditions you can use swales as a simple model of permaculture. Build swales to hold water and and plant the corresponding berm with mulch trees, shrubs, and herbaceous plants. Over plant nitrogen fixing plants and biomass producing plants and simply chop and drop as you need more space to grow food crops. You can even fill the berm with wood (hugelculture) to increase its ability to hold water and fertilize plants. Permaculture never seemed that difficult to understand of implement to me. Simply use plants and earthworks (swales, terraces, raised beds) to replace fertilizer and irrigation. Plant lots of trees. Start with nitrogen fixers (acacias, black locusts, etc) and then progress to fruit and nut trees. Plant many different species together in a polyculture. Hint- pests typically don't like alliums (onions, garlic, etc) so I plant them freely throughout my system.

Permaculture is so forgiving as well. If something is growing in the wrong place chop and drop -- now you've got mulch/compost. Chop and drop is your friend. Don't be afraid to experiment. I feel like people want a step by step of how to permaculture a piece of land. If you start with swales, terraces, raised beds or some combination of the three -- plant with fast growing nitrogen fixers and biomass plants you will most likely have success.

This year I am building raised beds filled with rotting wood. I place the wood directly on the ground in the length and shape I want for the bed. Soil is then dug from behind the bed and placed over the wood. The bed are above grade the trench below. It is very simple and the only tools I used where a shovel, pickaxe (grubber), and a metal rake.

Permaculture can be as simple or complex as you want to make it. When it comes to growing food it all comes down to minimizing irrigation and fertilizer. There are many more advanced techniques but the above is enough to get your feet wet.

I think what most (practical) people want from permaculture is:

- to grow to their own food, at least most of it
- this includes both calorie rih staples, starches, proteins, oils (think nuts, pulses, cereals, roots, seeds), but also greens to provide other nutrition (leaves, berries, fruits)
- plans to reach as close to 100% of their food in the smallest spot available (let's say 0.1 to 1 acre)
- with as litle work as possible, and self-sustaining systems (think all hundreds of perennials, mulching, swales, intercrops...)
- and methods to make the soil as fertile as possible, without importing organic matter (green mulching, huegelkultur...)

Is anyone out there really doing this?

As far as I know, no. Some are doing important bits to the whole picture. but I haven't met anyone doing close to 100% self-sufficiency, by mixing both conventional annuals, perennials and without importing their organic matter.

Solutions?

I think we can both grow a annual rotation system plus a perennial food forest garden.
(perennials are far more sustainable, but we eat far more annuals)

- A rotation system, with four plots of 100m2 (1000m2) to grow your annuals, with big focus in pulses (which are nitrogen fixing) and by doing intercropping. Obviously including here many choices of cereals, potatoes and other kinds of high starch roots
- At the perennial forest, next to the annuals, you can grow your fruit trees, nut guilds, and other species....
- A significant part of those plants must be used as compost crops (and perhaps as fodder to some animals)

Though I am highly limited by both land space and climate, I am doing all efforts possible to reach these goals. I am starting to grow a big range of perennials, besides a rotation of annuals highly focused in feeding myself (cereals, roots, pulses, oil crops, and some greens). I experiment with all possible systems to increase the fertility and sustainability of the soil, without resorting to external organic matter. So far, it has worked mostly for the fun of it, because I can't feed myself from it. Far from perfection!

Have I reached the goals?
No! I have only harvested some months of potatoes, a few meals of pulses, almost no cereals (no bread, pasta, rice), but plenty of greens (what I call "the easy stuff"). I am going to invest next year in a lot of cereals, both outdoors and indoors (due to my climate restrictions) and also in root alternatives to potatoes.

I haven't resorted to external organic matter. I have plenty lupins, birch, poplar around my plot, and I grow abundant green manures. This is gradually improving the soil, I still must resort to digging (but I want to avoid it). Its also not yet a full fertile soil, but I accept the waiting since I had started from native tundra soil (without adding anything else other my homemade compost and green manures). Mulching? I do it a lot, but I plan to reduce it, because at my wet climate it attracts slugs. Perennials? They are all still too small to provide food (those tree seedlings are my 10 year investment). At best I have grow about 5% of my yearly calories.


But like the OP, I am fully motivated into these sort of questions and goals.

Like many of you, I feel a bit lost, without those key examples to learn from. We are kind of reinventing the wheel. No else seems to have reached that in our temperate locations, but I am almost sure that this sort of self-sufficient and self-sustaining staple permaculture is widely done in the tropics, at many families that no nothing of permaculture.