Coppicing/pollard species for tree hay

Joe Coulson wrote:I'm interested in the best tree species for harvesting tree hay on a rotation for my livestock.

Jay Angler wrote:

Joe Coulson wrote:I'm interested in the best tree species for harvesting tree hay on a rotation for my livestock.

It might be helpful if you identified your livestock as they have different nutritional needs. Mulberry is mentioned in many sources as being good for chickens.

Morus alba is mentioned, but I'm on the limit of it's range, so I'm not convinced mine would cope with serious coppicing. A fellow visited from the States a couple of years back and considered the plant a weed in his ecosystem! Zones are helpful info, but there are more factors than just that. Our summer droughts and wet winters are counter to what many plants would prefer.

Joe Coulson wrote:I'm interested in the best tree species for harvesting tree hay on a rotation for my livestock. I'm in zone 6B and plan to plant poplar, willow, and locust. I've read that mulberry makes a great high protein tree hay as well with white mulberry being the highest in protein.

Can anyone recommend a specific white mulberry cultivar that is best? Additionally please recommend any other species that I might be overlooking and or share your own experience.

E.T. Mings wrote:I planted white mulberry, hybrid poplar, and hybrid willow in the 7/8 zone border. I purchased from Nick Ferguson at rareplantstore.com. I have them in the ground and lost a couple due to the hot weather, drought, and relentless deer foraging. They wrecked some cages. I need to have a go at making bone sauce to curb that.

What hieght are you planning to cut them at? I have been wondering about what would be best. Ours are by my folks pasture, not in it. So mowing is a height considersation. Maybe i should let the deer browse line set it. I don't want to cut at the ground, but i dont want to be reaching too high either. I was thinking about waste high, but that seems low for mowing. Any thoughts?

Mary Combs wrote:This is a bit long, but describes my ongoing tree fodder project and may give you some ideas.

Carla Burke wrote:I'm curious about the same, and I'm only raising goats - at least, for now. There's a specific willow by the common name of 'goat willow'(not sure of the Latin name), that is supposed to be great for goats, horses, cattle, and sheep, but my goats seem to like pretty much any willow they can get. I don't have access to mulberry, and all my black locust is too tall/ mature to even reach. But, I'm interested to find a good nutritional balance in tree hay, too. I know Mimosa and oak also make my goats very happy, and the tannins in both help with parasite control.

Lina Joana wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:This is a bit long, but describes my ongoing tree fodder project and may give you some ideas.

I love this description! Your post was super helpful, as I gave been thinking about tree hay and ways to manage it for our goats.

One question: how have you/are you planning to make and store it? Do you dry and bale like regular hay? Do you bind it fresh and have it last (an earlier question elsewhere on this forum found a source that described leaves on tree hay bundles lasting for months)? I am particularly wondering how you scale up for a herd - in my experience, dried leaves crumble in a way that grass hay does not, so I have been wondering how this works on a larger scale.

Lisa Sture wrote:

Carla Burke wrote:I'm curious about the same, and I'm only raising goats - at least, for now. There's a specific willow by the common name of 'goat willow'(not sure of the Latin name), that is supposed to be great for goats, horses, cattle, and sheep, but my goats seem to like pretty much any willow they can get. I don't have access to mulberry, and all my black locust is too tall/ mature to even reach. But, I'm interested to find a good nutritional balance in tree hay, too. I know Mimosa and oak also make my goats very happy, and the tannins in both help with parasite control.

You may have seen Goat Willow, it often gets called Pussy Willow here in the UK, as in the spring it has furry white buds that look, well actually like bunny tails, and are very pretty. It's a very rugged willow and very easy to propagate. I've never known why it is called 'Goat Willow', so don't know how good it actually is for forage.

Good luck! I would be interested to know if your stock like it.

Mary Combs wrote:

Lina Joana wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:This is a bit long, but describes my ongoing tree fodder project and may give you some ideas.

I love this description! Your post was super helpful, as I gave been thinking about tree hay and ways to manage it for our goats.

One question: how have you/are you planning to make and store it? Do you dry and bale like regular hay? Do you bind it fresh and have it last (an earlier question elsewhere on this forum found a source that described leaves on tree hay bundles lasting for months)? I am particularly wondering how you scale up for a herd - in my experience, dried leaves crumble in a way that grass hay does not, so I have been wondering how this works on a larger scale.

The first paddock tree planting happened in 2022, so not yet part of the diet - but my thoughts on the subject are these possibilities:

1)    In the first instance, simply chop and drop in field for the cattle to eat in place. If that would extend the 'grazing season' by even a month, it would improve the economics of over wintering the herd. E.g. to feed one adult cow for 30 days on hay alone, this year (with high prices) will cost this amount - $300 per ton x (25 lbs per day x 30 days / 2000 lbs) = $112. There are currently 14 animals in the herd - some are pregnant and some are growing, and if we have a very cold winter, the intake could rise to 40 lbs per day. So my herd costs between $1568 and $2509 per month in the winter (ouch). If my tree hay can defray 50% of the hay usage for 2 months, that's the figure I can save. Well worth the effort to plant and nurture the trees. Once in production, chop and drop in place costs only my time and fertilizes around the trees.

2)    If the project expands to encompass all the paddocks (including 3 more yet to be fenced), it's possible that the trees plus the comfrey would far exceed the fresh intake from chop and drop. In that case, I'm keen to try to ensile the excess - either in bags or into a concrete bunker. I already have a chipper, but that one might not be manly enough to handle the volume. Some experimentation and lab testing would be needed to make sure the product is completely non-toxic and any necessary supplements are added or given free-range. Again, this would require some upfront investment, but being able to produce adequate sileage to replace a percentage of the alfalfa hay I'm currently using, would be really useful. A lot more research is needed, but Bonner Concrete Products in Idaho sells 2500 gallon water tanks, root cellars and surface well casings that look promising as pre-cast bunkers for under $10,000. Either a water tank or a root cellar could be repurposed if the project didn't work out in the end. This is definitely the most expensive option.

3)     The rotational grazing we started last year should increase the carrying capacity of the pastures over the next 5 years. Adding the dappled shade to keep the grass growing through the hottest months (currently the grass pretty much stops growing during the hot dry months), has the potential to double the carrying capacity of the paddocks. In that case, several paddocks could be set aside in the autumn as 'standing hay', to be grazed in the winter months. The tree hay could again be 'chopped and dropped' in the summer months to increase the carrying capacity further. There is a limit, not sure what it is, but the hoof traffic across the fields to access the water, or congregation under the trees, has the potential to compact the soil or churn up the grass to mud when it rains.

4)     There might also be a method that could be invented to chop the branches and leaves, but drying the product instead of ensiling it. That could be a very cheap option for creating winter feed, but probably a lot more manpower intensive. I guess it depends on number of animals and the reason they are being kept. Probably need to invent a new term 'forage fed' instead of grass fed when selling meat. There is also a question in my mind as to how any of these techniques will impact on the flavor of meat or milk, and whether the customers would find the flavours acceptable. Converting milk to cheese or kefir might solve that issue.

Plenty of research and experimentation to occupy my retirement years - if I can at least break even in the process.  

Mark Krawczyk wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:

Lina Joana wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:This is a bit long, but describes my ongoing tree fodder project and may give you some ideas.

You're probably already aware of Shana Hansen of Three Streams Farm in Belfast Maine, but she's been doing some great work researching a number of aspects of tree hay feasibility and has completed at least one if not a few USDA SARE grants on this. Here's a link to a recent report - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xH08aJD0RY1fXgPu1Csh4U5_h0g1QTDC/view

And on this page http://3streamsfarmbelfastme.blogspot.com/p/tree-fodder-info.html
scroll down to "tree fodder related documents" for more.

All the best!
Mark

Thank you for the response!  Looks like I'm woefully behind the leaders in the field of tree hay, I was not aware of the author you have cited and look forward to a detailed study of her work and related threads. This will probably save me a lot of unnecessary trial and error. It's always useful to stand on the shoulders of the ones who went before.

I do have some initial thoughts from a first reading -
a)   I would still be hesitant about including Black Locust in any feeding program, not only because of the thorns but because of a deep seated prejudice about toxicity. I had plenty of thorn pricks as a child and every one festered like mad. One poster here has said black locust fodder is edible in moderation, but if the animal doesn't have free choice (as in shredded or ensiled), I'd want some detailed lab tests on toxicity before using on my herd. Its easier to just not include locusts in my project.
b)   While not as strongly concerned about red maples (and big leaf maple), Plants for a Future lists them as only moderately edible and livestock sites say their wilted leaves are poisonous. There are other acers that are more edible.
c)    Livestock sites also warn against cherry leaves and bark being toxic - definitely off my list for use in a pasture.
d)    If I tried to ensile chipped/shredded material in bags stacked in a barn, I'd be over run with rodents in short order!  Using a concrete bunker would be ideal in our situation if one were already available that could be repurposed - but the cost of a new installation would be pretty prohibitive. However, these articles triggered another thought. The website repurposedmaterialsinc.com is a site I've bought from and can recommend (we use their repurposed billboard vinyls in place of tarps). They sell 55 gallon metal drums with locking lids for $40 each. These are not food grade, but I'd use bags inside anyway. I'd probably go looking for similar containers in food grade. Certainly for trial runs of ensiling chipped tree fodder, barrels would be affordable and reusable or resaleable. They would also be rodent proof.
e)     Their protocol for pollarding is to cut close to the tree - no further out than arm's length. That is not what I have in mind. I'm looking for an outcome that basically looks like an umbrella when fully reclothed in leaves. Branches would not come below 7 to 8 feet, and tops of the highest collars be limited to 15 feet. Permanent side branches would extend out as far as they would prove strong and stable - but probably 10 to 15 feet in all directions, but not overlapping between trees in the same row. I would have to see how the harvesting works out, but I'm probably more interested in a thinning operation every other year, than in denuding any trees. This is because these trees will provide services beyond just tree fodder (shade, fruit, etc).

Do you think the pollarding pattern I have in mind is feasible, even though it doesn't match with other published techniques?  

Mary Combs wrote:

Mark Krawczyk wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:

Lina Joana wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:This is a bit long, but describes my ongoing tree fodder project and may give you some ideas.

You're probably already aware of Shana Hansen of Three Streams Farm in Belfast Maine, but she's been doing some great work researching a number of aspects of tree hay feasibility and has completed at least one if not a few USDA SARE grants on this. Here's a link to a recent report - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xH08aJD0RY1fXgPu1Csh4U5_h0g1QTDC/view

And on this page http://3streamsfarmbelfastme.blogspot.com/p/tree-fodder-info.html
scroll down to "tree fodder related documents" for more.

All the best!
Mark

Thank you for the response!  Looks like I'm woefully behind the leaders in the field of tree hay, I was not aware of the author you have cited and look forward to a detailed study of her work and related threads. This will probably save me a lot of unnecessary trial and error. It's always useful to stand on the shoulders of the ones who went before.

I do have some initial thoughts from a first reading -
a)   I would still be hesitant about including Black Locust in any feeding program, not only because of the thorns but because of a deep seated prejudice about toxicity. I had plenty of thorn pricks as a child and every one festered like mad. One poster here has said black locust fodder is edible in moderation, but if the animal doesn't have free choice (as in shredded or ensiled), I'd want some detailed lab tests on toxicity before using on my herd. Its easier to just not include locusts in my project.
b)   While not as strongly concerned about red maples (and big leaf maple), Plants for a Future lists them as only moderately edible and livestock sites say their wilted leaves are poisonous. There are other acers that are more edible.
c)    Livestock sites also warn against cherry leaves and bark being toxic - definitely off my list for use in a pasture.
d)    If I tried to ensile chipped/shredded material in bags stacked in a barn, I'd be over run with rodents in short order!  Using a concrete bunker would be ideal in our situation if one were already available that could be repurposed - but the cost of a new installation would be pretty prohibitive. However, these articles triggered another thought. The website repurposedmaterialsinc.com is a site I've bought from and can recommend (we use their repurposed billboard vinyls in place of tarps). They sell 55 gallon metal drums with locking lids for $40 each. These are not food grade, but I'd use bags inside anyway. I'd probably go looking for similar containers in food grade. Certainly for trial runs of ensiling chipped tree fodder, barrels would be affordable and reusable or resaleable. They would also be rodent proof.
e)     Their protocol for pollarding is to cut close to the tree - no further out than arm's length. That is not what I have in mind. I'm looking for an outcome that basically looks like an umbrella when fully reclothed in leaves. Branches would not come below 7 to 8 feet, and tops of the highest collars be limited to 15 feet. Permanent side branches would extend out as far as they would prove strong and stable - but probably 10 to 15 feet in all directions, but not overlapping between trees in the same row. I would have to see how the harvesting works out, but I'm probably more interested in a thinning operation every other year, than in denuding any trees. This is because these trees will provide services beyond just tree fodder (shade, fruit, etc).

Do you think the pollarding pattern I have in mind is feasible, even though it doesn't match with other published techniques?  

Hello Mary

Here are a few responses to your points/questions -

a- My sheep have had no problems browsing black locust but I understand why you'd choose to be cautious. They absolutely love it and devour it with great relish whenever I give them access to a paddock with any growing.

b- I don't believe I've ever heard about red maples being poisonous when wilted but that could be true. I have heard that about cherry though.
c- See above... and it's my understanding that fresh cherry leaves aren't toxic. It's only after they've wilted.

e- This is something that Shana and I have discussed in some detail and I think the jury is still out as to the overall 'best' pollarding practice. She points out that different species have different tolerances when it comes to how many pollard 'knobs' they can sustain and how far they can extend from the main stem. In over 10 years of research on the book, I've only ever encountered a very small handful of sources that clearly describe any specific strategy to create and maintain pollards in any detail.

Because of this, I can't tell you with certainty what is best for your specific situation. Keep in mind that Shana is largely working in existing forest and doing her thinning, lopping and pollarding on trees with quite tall canopies. This is a very different context than many folks who are interested in adding more open grown trees to pastures. I would imagine that these two distinctly different contexts would tend to require different approaches since a forest grown tree will not have nearly the same robust and branching canopy as an open grown tree would.

I do think that a 15' extension from the main stem could be asking a lot of the plant. It'll also take you quite some time to establish that type of architecture if you're planing seedlings. It's possible you could make it work, but I can't think of any pollards I've ever seen with branches extending that far out from the main stem. 10' seems more feasible, but in my experience, it all changes when it comes time to actually make the cuts. The longer the branches extend the stronger they'll need to be to support the weight of the sprouts - especially depending on your rotation length.

And last - when it comes to a more 'selective thinning' type management, I'm not sure how well that would work. Again, it's quite possible it would work fine, but most pollards I've seen around the world usually involve an almost complete removal of all sprouts from each knob. In some areas they leave a single sprout per knob to serve as a sap riser but other pracitioners don't... I do wonder how you generate robust new sprouts if you always leave some sprouts of various levels of maturity in place.

Again, there's a lot I still don't konw - especially when it comes to pollarding best practice. I encourage you to experiment and share your experiences.
It sounds like you've got a lot of good, engaging, fun work ahead!
Mark

Mark Krawczyk wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:

Mark Krawczyk wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:

Lina Joana wrote:

Mary Combs wrote:

Mark

Thanks Mark!!! Those are some very helpful comments - I hadn't considered until now the structural differences between forest trees and open landscape trees.

When I was a youngster growing up in St Louis county, the next door neighbor family owned by far the biggest house and plot in the neighborhood. Their property had obviously been extensively landscaped at one point as it had a large, very dilapidated, concrete and stone ornamental fishpond and other garden features. The thing I remember most, however, was the huge mulberry tree - at least huge in my memory. From memory, it had 3 'whorls' or platforms of branches we could climb up to and 6 or 7 of us could 'hang out' on the lowest whorl and fewer as you went up. I'm sure the tree had originally been trained as the main branches went out almost horizontally from the stem. On the first whorl, the horizontal limbs went far enough out for a pre-teen to lay flat and read a book, before branching out with foliage. I can only imagine both sets of parents hated washing our play clothes as red mulberry stains would have been usual. The tree was probably a lot smaller than I envisage it now, but I can recall the father next door getting up on ladders to prune the tree. Those memories are not clear enough to remember how often, though. When I think ‘pollard’, that’s the image that comes to mind. Thinking more clearly about what I hope to achieve, I’m quite sure the trees in my paddocks will not be that mature in my lifetime! However, I will have fun with the project for so far as I get. For sure I will be documenting and sharing images from our project.

I went looking on the internet for images of trees that might look somewhat like that old mulberry tree – and didn’t find anything exactly like the tree I remember – but several images have similarities in part. Some of this look to be natural features but sort of convey the idea.

Rebecca Norman wrote:Here in the Himalayas, especially the drier parts, pollarded willows and poplars are the main trees, and are used exactly as you describe, in springtime, at least somewhat. Either you cut them before they leaf out for useful sticks or for planting, or you wait till after they leaf out and cut them and let cows come and eat the leaves.

One of the most common species of willow here is considered to cause unpleasant off-flavor in the milk, and even to increase the risk of miscarriage, if cows eat too much of it at one time. I don't know the botanical name of any of the willows here. There are no weeping willows traditionally, but about 6 to 8 species of upright willows are commonly planted here. The one with the bad reputation for fodder seems to me like it might be a crack willow. The other willows and both species of poplars are considered harmless to cows here.

Pollarding here is not done to make knobs. You just hack all the straight willow branches off in early spring when they've been growing about 3 years. It works much better to hack off all of the branches and not leave one or a few. If you cut them all at the same time, the tree sends out an incredible bunch of very vigorous shoots that same year, and over 3 years they harden into fairly straight strong round sticks. If you leave one or a few branches, the growth is much less vigorous and straight.

William Bronson wrote: If I was trying to store tree hay, I would probably bundle it and hang it.

I think bundles, hanging in a barn, tobacco style, might be a cheap easy way to preserve tree hay.
Even a ratchet strap between two trees, with a tarp over it, could be a good place to hang the bundles


This is a very good point. A tobacco drying style shed would not be that difficult to knock together. I'm sure a system of hanging the bundles could be organised that would keep the bundles identified as to what species of tree they came from - that might important if the use of tree fodder impacts the flavor of meat or milk. I have several locations such a shed could be constructed. Storing the bundles would have to be in a shed or else the elk and deer could decimate it, as they do our hay if not protected. Hanging the bundles between trees for the initial drying might work - then move them to the shed.

Thanks for the thought!  

William Bronson wrote: If I was trying to store tree hay, I would probably bundle it and hang it.
I have had some success with bundles of sunchoke stalks.
Bundling took very little time and few materials.
I dried them on an open sided porch, and feed them to our rabbits.

I think bundles, hanging in a barn, tobacco style, might be a cheap easy way to preserve tree hay.
Even a ratchet strap between two trees, with a tarp over it, could be a good place to hang the bundles

Would this attract rats and mice ?
I'm not sure.
The rodents at my place tend to leave hanging items alone.
This might  only be because they have better places to live and things to eat.
Stacked treehay bundles would tempt rodents as a place to nest, but hanging up, I think they would lose their appeal.

Joe Coulson wrote:I'm interested in the best tree species for harvesting tree hay on a rotation for my livestock. I'm in zone 6B and plan to plant poplar, willow, and locust. I've read that mulberry makes a great high protein tree hay as well with white mulberry being the highest in protein.

Can anyone recommend a specific white mulberry cultivar that is best? Additionally please recommend any other species that I might be overlooking and or share your own experience.