Hip dysplasia in LGDs

Let's discuss hip dysplasia in our giant breeds!

To kick it off, how about a brief article from Dr. Wendell O. Belfield:


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I am editing to remove the article because the original link is no longer visible on the internet to reference and give proper credit (at least that I can find right now). I have it saved in my personal materials from the author. Sorry about that! 😢

Sarah, thank you for the great information on ascorbate and the impact on hip dysplasia. My husband and I have always had Great Danes and both dysplasia and knee weakness (requiring TPLO) has been a common problem. The conventional wisdom is that dogs make their own Vitamin C so there is no need to supplement.

Since we don't live in a perfect world of perfect nutrition for our dogs, I can see how they may not be making enough of their own to support the rapid growth in large and giant breeds. So then the question is how much to give, what form, and for how long? Even though it's water soluble, vitamin C in excess can have side effects in humans, and I assume there could be similar issues in dogs.

Or maybe even better, what sort of nutrition is required to give the pup all it needs so that supplementation isn't necessary? Raw vs. cooked meat, carbohydrate types (if any), etc. I don't have those answers so this could be a great discussion.

My own conclusion is that, if something as simple as a vitamin C deficiency caused hip dysplasia and this was identified more than 50 years ago, dysplasia would have ceased to exist a very long time ago.  HD is a complex problem, and as such, doesn't have a simple "just do this" answer.  Here is a link to an article from the Canadian Veterinary Journal, that says high dose vitamin C does not prevent HD and it's use should be discontinued.  Hip Dysplasia article

Again, I applaud anyone that is working to get rid of this terrible disease.  At this point, my own opinion is that it is best handled by a) only breeding dogs with excellent hips, b) restricting excessive high stress movement like stairs (especially going down stairs), running to exhaustion, wrestling around with much bigger dogs, and the like in young dogs, while promoting low stress healthy exercise like walking, and swimming, c) maintaining a healthy weight, which means keeping the dog much more slender than most people do until and through adulthood, and d) feeding the highest quality food available with what we know about canine nutrition.

Getting it into the diet is a great question. Many food sources of C aren’t digestible to a carnivore. Dr. Wendell used ascorbates for better absorption.

This is from another article discussing that:

Vitamin C Dosage for Dogs

The average dog normally produces about 18 milligrams of vitamin C per pound of body weight per day. Therefore, for a dog that is free of clinically significant symptoms but is experiencing unusual stress, supplementation with about that much C per day appears be a conservative maintenance dosage. (About 500 milligrams for a 28-lb. dog daily.) To increase absorption, veterinarians recommend splitting the total daily dosage into several feedings during the day.

However, many holistic veterinarians routinely suggest maintenance doses that are three to four times that amount. They explain that modern, domestic dogs need more vitamin C than the theoretical “natural” dog, since their bodies must deal with so many challenges: stress, pollution, chemicals and pesticides, and poor diets, to name a few.

Too much vitamin C, especially if given in one dose, will cause diarrhea in dogs. What amount is too much varies from dog to dog, so, when administering the maximum amount of C for a therapeutic (not just maintenance) dose, many veterinarians will suggest that you increase the dose in 100-500 milligram-per-day increments until the dog develops diarrhea, then reduce his daily dose to the previous day’s dose. (This is often referred to as dosing to “bowel tolerance.”)

There’s also a lot more info in that article. Here’s the link: https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/food/benefits-of-vitamin-c-to-your-dog/

An interesting discussion that I will keep tracking on.  Now I'm wondering about osteosarcoma as well, as this took 3 of our Anatolians across a ~12 year span of time, each becoming afflicted and having to be put down around 3-4 years of age.  Although anecdotal, a colleague from Turkey was confused at our rate of loss as, in the Turkish rural areas this person did not feel such losses were common.  Are dietary differences between 'standard' North American feeding habits and that of working dogs in Europe and Middle East at work here??  Also interesting that a more typical 'carnivore' diet would provide much if not all of necessary Vitamin C.....don't know if higher-end processed dog food has supplemental Vitamin C?

"Getting enough vitamin C on a carnivore diet is one of the most persistent concerns of people interested in this all-meat way of life.

However, this concern is based on a mainstream dietary fallacy that meat contains no vitamin C. In fact, when eating a carnivore diet of at least 1000 grams (2.2lbs) of fresh muscle meat alone, you will exceed the amount of vitamin C you need to prevent scurvy (vitamin c deficiency).

You can also increase your vitamin C intake on a carnivore diet with the addition of organ meats and seafood. -- https://www.doctorkiltz.com/vitamin-c-on-carnivore-diet/

Edited to add, a quick internet perusal indicates many clinical veterinary trials initiated after ~2019/2020 investigating high-dose Vitamin C in treatment regimes of canine osteosarcoma.  Will be curious to see those results when they emerge....

Thanks for starting this thread, AND for all the information.  I will need to read it a few times!  I think it says there ARE genetic factors which can predispose a dog to CHF.  But I need to go read it again before I begin on that.

Appropriate nutrition is a great place to start!

I feed best possible commercial dog food from the feed store, look at the ingredients, avoid the ones whose first, or 3 out of the first 5 ingredients are grain derived, but is there a better way?

My dog, 3 year old spayed Belgian Malinois, self supplements 😉 as all farm dogs do, steals cat food (and poop ack!) and gets the leavings of my food, coleslaw to rib bones.  She also eats things I give to the goats, carrots, pumpkin, bananas, roasted peanuts in the shell.

I could make her dog food, I have known people who do that, but I have heard veterinarians say we should stick to commercial feed because they are the “experts”, and I have dog owning neighbors express surprise that I give my dog people food, saying they thought people food makes dogs sick.

I believe dogs are omnivores, with digestive systems to process everything from insects to carrion, with fruits eggs included.  But we have a specific challenge here, healthy dogs😍!

So, what should a CHD prevention diet include?

I also read the article to mean that there are many factors that could play a role, but I also think for all our animals (and ourselves), if we're not starting with the basis of the nutrition our bodies need it's going to make the job much harder if not impossible for the body to stay well long term as the body will pull whatever reserves it has and then things begin to fail when the reserves run out.

My understanding is that canines are not omnivores, but opportunistic carnivores! Just because they will eat something doesn't mean it's good for them (just like our kids - some would rather eat only fruit all day long, but we know that's not good for them).

Cooked food is also not good for dogs long term. It lacks the enzymes needed to digest the food and again their bodies rob enzymes which leads to depletion over time. I believe this is one of the causes of pancreatitis.

I'm no expert but I'm trying to learn as much as I can. There are many great teachers on feeding a species appropriate raw diet for dogs. One of my favorites is Natural Rearing - Breeding and Raising Dogs The Way Nature Intended by Dr. Jeannie Thomason. Another book that was recently recommended to me that I'm going to read next is Raw and Thriving by Kristin Clark. I've also read Juliette de Levy's book but mostly use it for an herbal reference.

There are many fruits and veggies that provide great nutrition and 'food as medicine' opportunities, for dogs. (Not as much for cats, as they're considered 'true' carnivore, with any vegetal matter generally coming incidentally from the gut of whatever critter they're consuming.) Dogs are definitely considered opportunistic carnivores, but (from what I learned in my species-appropriate raw diet certification course, and practice with my own) as with humans, there are some fruits, berries, and veggies that serve them well, on a daily basis, and others that are best kept as occasional treats, simply because of their high sugars.

A daily, small handful of blueberries can all but eliminate the tear staining and its irritation in dogs prone to the problem; unsweetened cranberries, on a daily basis can keep uti problems at bay (they may need to be minced, in order to keep the dogs from turning them into toys, though. Ahem); a bite of banana helps balance potassium levels in dogs that get a lot of exercise or have heart troubles; daily pumpkin brings fiber to balance the liquid/ solid matter, in the digestive tract, helping ease both constipation and diarrhea... The list goes on. Things like the brassicas, celery, garlic(moderate amounts, as if for seasoning, only), carrots, and even some seeds daily, all bring loads of good, absorbable nutrition to the table - literally. Starchy root veggies, legumes, and grains are best avoided, altogether.

But, our dogs are given(& love) treats of small bits of oranges, tangerines, apples, strawberries, and much more. In fact, last night, they were both thrilled to get a piece of romaine lettuce, lol. Yes, our dogs love salad...

Note: grapes(& of course, raisins), pecans, chocolate, coffee, & onions are all bad news, for dogs. Some folks will say otherwise. But, there are some things I'd rather be safe with, than take chances on, when it comes to my critter's health.

Thank you so much for the additional info Carla! Where did you get certified if you’re willing to share?

We too find that certain plants are helpful for our dogs. Would you agree that in general it makes sense to use them as needed for specific effects?

We gave our dogs more fruit/veg early on in their daily meals but shifted away from it other than specific reasons like you mentioned - and we don’t feed fruit at the same time as meat.

It reminds me of how I noticed our dogs were interested in chewing on walnut hulls at a certain time of year that seemed to match up with when their bodies would need that medicine!

Re: Blueberries....

Reminds me of an interesting story and observations from the Voyager's Wolf Project in northern Minnesota where wolves grazing blueberry stands was caught on camera...

https://www.cnet.com/science/biology/see-rare-video-of-wolves-munching-blueberries-in-the-wild/#:~:text=%22This%20past%20summer%20was%20a,packs%20during%20the%20berry%20season.%22

My certification class was through https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/
I was surprised at how thorough it was. I also read a lot from Dr. Judy Morgan, and make a 'loaf' type mixture similar to her pup loaf, but have found that my little dog does better with it dehydrated at a raw-low-temp. So, hers is dehydrated at about 115°F, until it snaps. Then, I break it up, and can easily weigh & portion it, for storage, travel, etc. We play games & train with her daily food portions, instead of 'treats'. It keeps her portions under control and keeps us actively engaged, every day. I do sprinkle an extra vitamin/ mineral supplement over her daily egg, as well. I've had folks tell me my little Cavalier eats better than them. She often eats better than the choices I make for myself. Hubby feels differently, and feeds his Irish Wolfhound science diet. I don't nag him - he doesn't nag me. He says he wishes we could afford to feed her the way we feed mine - I think we'd break even, for lack of typical vet bills, as she ages - with overall health better, my way.

John Weiland wrote: Reminds me of an interesting story and observations from the Voyager's Wolf Project in northern Minnesota where wolves grazing blueberry stands was caught on camera...

Interesting! One of our dogs does this with wineberries in our hedgerow here.

Carla Burke wrote:He says he wishes we could afford to feed her the way we feed mine - I think we'd break even, for lack of typical vet bills, as she ages - with overall health better, my way.

I’m with you on this too!! We used to have huge vet bills when we cared for our cats the way the vets told us too and most of them died of cancer. Our current cat is 14 and still as spry as a kitten and no health concerns at all. We’ve had no health issues with any of our dogs either!

John Weiland wrote:An interesting discussion that I will keep tracking on.  Now I'm wondering about osteosarcoma as well, as this took 3 of our Anatolians across a ~12 year span of time, each becoming afflicted and having to be put down around 3-4 years of age.  Although anecdotal, a colleague from Turkey was confused at our rate of loss as, in the Turkish rural areas this person did not feel such losses were common.  Are dietary differences between 'standard' North American feeding habits and that of working dogs in Europe and Middle East at work here??  Also interesting that a more typical 'carnivore' diet would provide much if not all of necessary Vitamin C.....don't know if higher-end processed dog food has supplemental Vitamin C?

Not sure if your Anatolian were altered, and if so, at what age, but there have been several studies that show that early spay/neuter significantly increases the rates of osteosarcoma in various giant breeds. There may also be some association with hip dysplasia, cruciate tears, and some autoimmune diseases.

The thought is that altering before the skeletal structure is finished maturing deprives the dog of the hormones needed to signal while they are building bones, and may alter their final confirmation. Delaying altering may mean not altering before 2 or even 3 years for giant breed dogs.

We had a dog die of osteosarcoma. Painful, horrific disease. I can't imagine watching it in 3 dogs!

Catie George wrote:....... I can't imagine watching it in 3 dogs!

You've experienced that then, and yes....quite awful!  What you describe with the spay/neuter is now our 'experiment in progress'.  He's unfixed and 3-4 years old now with no problem signs so far.  Fingers crossed!

 Looks like more than one of us is making dog food!

About the grapes, my Komondor used to stand with her head in the grape vines.  When she was busy elsewhere, I went to look what might be of interest to her.  Bunches of grapes.

I helped a friend disassemble coyote scat from the wild, (part of his PhD).  From what they ate, I concluded they and dogs must be omnivorous.  But opportunistic carnivores is a great label, and I am glad to have been educated.  Thanks to all who put that forward.

My thought on observing what my dog was snacking on was that it was probably OK… based on the omnivore thing… and opportunistic….

With my goats, I believe  that if they are not starving, and have access to diverse foods, they won’t poison themselves.  And, doing good so far.  Averaging 5 goats in almost a decade, I have had no food related losses.  I made this same conclusion on the dog eating a few grapes.

Internet says any amount of grapes for any size dog puts the dog at risk for (immediate) kidney failure.  Can anyone put this in to perspective for me?

As with most things, the poison is in the dose, as far as I've been able to discern. The difficulty, I'm sure, lies in a combination of things, including the size of the dog, is constitution and sensitivities, and possibly much more. If my critters get hold of something known to be toxic, I write down the time, what it was, how much I believe they may have ingested, and watch them very closely for any signs of distress - writing down what happened, when, etc, for a couple days. If all seems OK, I assume they didn't get enough to cause issue. If anything does go sideways, I get to the vet with every scrap of info I managed to gather.

Carla Burke wrote: If all seems OK, I assume they didn't get enough to cause issue.

I think with the power of the internet, I'd do a bit of reading first with known toxins (vine fruit, chocolate, xylitol). There are calculators available to give an indication as to whether they are likely to be in trouble, sometimes an early intervention is successful where a late one would not. Here's some info on chocolate for example: https://www.msdvetmanual.com/toxicology/food-hazards/chocolate-toxicosis-in-animals

As regards hip dysplasia I did a bit of reading when we got our mastiff pup Della, and there were a couple of conclusions I reached that seemed important:
First large dogs, counterintuitively, need to grow their skeletons slowly, so not over feeding is important. Della is still a picky eater, so this hasn't been too much of a problem for us.
Second the ratio of Phosphorus to Calcium is important, I forget the details, but too much Calcium in particular leads to skeletal problems, here's one reference: https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/nutritional-requirements-of-large-and-giant-breed-puppies. That ratio is one of the things that puppy food for larger breeds is different to standard puppy food.

We did a mixture of bought food and made up food for Della - (ox lights, mixed veg and rice) about 50:50. She now gets mostly adult food (she's nearly 2 years old now) with bone jelly from beef bones. She's still a picky eater, when we went away for a weekend, our puppy-sitter spent a lot of time hand feeding her - I think she liked the attention!

(edited to correct ratio and add web reference)

Yes! Those are the signs I'm watching for, taking note of, etc. Thank you for tracking it down, to share!

(Edited to add the quoted list)"Clinical signs of chocolate toxicosis usually occur within 6–12 hours of ingestion. Initial signs may include polydipsia, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal distention, and restlessness. Signs may progress to hyperactivity, polyuria, ataxia, rigidity, tremors, and seizures. Tachycardia, premature ventricular contractions, tachypnea, cyanosis, hypertension, hyperthermia, bradycardia, hypotension, or coma may occur. Hypokalemia may occur late in the course of the toxicosis, contributing to cardiac dysfunction. Death is generally due to cardiac arrhythmias, hyperthermia, or respiratory failure. The high fat content of chocolate products may trigger pancreatitis in susceptible animals."

Nancy Reading wrote:

We did a mixture of bought food and made up food for Della - (ox lights, mixed veg and rice) about 50:50. She now gets mostly adult food (she's nearly 2 years old now) with bone jelly from beef bones. She's still a picky eater, when we went away for a weekend, our puppy-sitter spent a lot of time hand feeding her - I think she liked the attention!

I’m not sure what “ox lights “ is.  Maybe Otto got his hand in there?

I second the question - what are ox lights, please?

I've been going through some emails from a few years ago and found one that Dr. Jeannie Thomason had emailed to me on CHD. She said that she believed it to be environmental for the most part. It reminded me that I read somewhere else that the material used in the whelping area can effect a pup's hip development, much like a too slick surface in an incubator can be a cause of splayed leg in chicks.

I give my Newfoundland x Bernese mix a teaspoonful of cod liver oil on her food every day as a preventative measure against early onset arthritis and hip dysplasia.

We used to give her the omega 3 capsules made for dogs, but they are very expensive and the vet said it's just cod liver oil, same as you can buy for humans for about £4 in the supermarket.

She really likes the taste.

We also take her swimming a lot. Low impact exercise like swimming and slowly pulling carts is excellent for large breeds, helping them to build and maintain muscle to support joints without putting a lot of stress on said joints. Not sure if those things are very practical for a LGD though!... our dog is really more for pulling carts, carrying panniers and companionship.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:

Nancy Reading wrote:

We did a mixture of bought food and made up food for Della - (ox lights, mixed veg and rice) about 50:50. She now gets mostly adult food (she's nearly 2 years old now) with bone jelly from beef bones. She's still a picky eater, when we went away for a weekend, our puppy-sitter spent a lot of time hand feeding her - I think she liked the attention!

I’m not sure what “ox lights “ is.  Maybe Otto got his hand in there?

Sorry - lights are a butchers term for lungs I believe (ever heard of the expression "liver and lights"? Maybe it's a UK term, but its a cheap, non fatty offal that isn't too rich. The lamb and pork lungs they use for haggis (amongst other things) so I guess they have more beef lungs left over. The butcher used to mince it (US=grind) so I could put bags in the freezer to take out as we needed them. Unfortunately my butcher can't get it for me any more, which is why we've gone over to using bone jelly.

Rudyard Blake wrote:
We also take her swimming a lot. Low impact exercise like swimming and slowly pulling carts is excellent for large breeds, helping them to build and maintain muscle to support joints without putting a lot of stress on said joints. Not sure if those things are very practical for a LGD though!... our dog is really more for pulling carts, carrying panniers and companionship.

That's interesting, thanks. As a safety precaution to stop Della jumping the fences we harness her to a car tyre, and she happily drags it around after her, removing decades of turf from our original gravel path as she goes. Nice to think that it is doing her good as well. You have to watch out as she goes past at speed or she'll knock the ankles out from under you....

Nancy Reading wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:

Nancy Reading wrote:

We did a mixture of bought food and made up food for Della - (ox lights, mixed veg and rice) about 50:50. She now gets mostly adult food (she's nearly 2 years old now)

I’m not sure what “ox lights “ is

Sorry - lights are a butchers term for lungs I believe (ever heard of the expression "liver and lights"? Maybe it's a UK term, but its a cheap, non fatty offal that isn't too rich. The lamb and pork lungs they use for haggis (amongst other things) so I guess they have more beef lungs left over. The butcher used to mince it (US=grind) so I could put bags in the freezer to take out as we needed them. Unfortunately my butcher can't get it for me any more, which is why we've gone over to using bone jelly.

I see, thanks for clarifying

I'm not terribly worried about hip dysplasia in my LGD puppies -- neither parent has any sign of lameness, and none of their parents did, either.  But I would like to know what would be best to start feeding these babies when they are old enough to start on solid food.  I've been planning to get a little canned dog food and start that in a week or so (they are just over three weeks old now), but I'm not totally happy with that idea, because I know it's not the best nutrition.  I can feed some hamburger that I have in the freezer (I'm already giving some of that to their mother, and she's holding weight really well, considering she's feeding eleven little chunks).  It's a bit freezer-burned, so I don't want to eat it, but it makes good dog food.  It's good grass-fed beef from a neighbor.

That poor mama!
How many pounds of puppy gain from birth to any form of solid food?  And all of it cycled through her body, she must be hungry all the time!


Goats milk would be a good addition to what ever else you get.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:That poor mama!
How many pounds of puppy gain from birth to any form of solid food?  And all of it cycled through her body, she must be hungry all the time!


Goats milk would be a good addition to what ever else you get.

She is definitely eating voraciously!  The puppies are supposed to be at least twenty pounds at eight weeks old (from less than one pound at birth, maybe half a pound?).  Of course, she won't be nursing them the whole time, but I don't know exactly when she'll decide she's had enough and wean them, as it's her first (and only) litter.  

My goats aren't milking yet -- hopefully both does are bred, but I don't expect kids until around the end of April.  Our next-door neighbor will have surplus milk from her goats about the end of February, a little late to help much with the puppies, unfortunately.  But we'll be getting milk from her for the bottle calves.  (She makes soaps and lotions for sale, and dumps the surplus milk out on the ground!)  

Thekla McDaniels wrote:

Nancy Reading wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:

Nancy Reading wrote:
We did a mixture of bought food and made up food for Della - (ox lights, mixed veg and rice) about 50:50. She now gets mostly adult food (she's nearly 2 years old now)

I’m not sure what “ox lights “ is

Sorry - lights are a butchers term for lungs I believe (ever heard of the expression "liver and lights"? Maybe it's a UK term, but its a cheap, non fatty offal that isn't too rich. The lamb and pork lungs they use for haggis (amongst other things) so I guess they have more beef lungs left over. The butcher used to mince it (US=grind) so I could put bags in the freezer to take out as we needed them. Unfortunately my butcher can't get it for me any more, which is why we've gone over to using bone jelly.

I see, thanks for clarifying

Ahh, ok. Lungs are prohibited, for sale, in the USA, because of how commonly poor farming practices contaminate the respiratory systems.

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:That poor mama!
How many pounds of puppy gain from birth to any form of solid food?  And all of it cycled through her body, she must be hungry all the time!


Goats milk would be a good addition to what ever else you get.

She is definitely eating voraciously!  The puppies are supposed to be at least twenty pounds at eight weeks old (from less than one pound at birth, maybe half a pound?).  Of course, she won't be nursing them the whole time, but I don't know exactly when she'll decide she's had enough and wean them, as it's her first (and only) litter.  

My goats aren't milking yet -- hopefully both does are bred, but I don't expect kids until around the end of April.  Our next-door neighbor will have surplus milk from her goats about the end of February, a little late to help much with the puppies, unfortunately.  But we'll be getting milk from her for the bottle calves.  (She makes soaps and lotions for sale, and dumps the surplus milk out on the ground!)  

Typically, weaning begins at around 6wks, and *usually* is complete by around 8wks.

Carla Burke wrote:

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:

Thekla McDaniels wrote:That poor mama!
How many pounds of puppy gain from birth to any form of solid food?  And all of it cycled through her body, she must be hungry all the time!


Goats milk would be a good addition to what ever else you get.

She is definitely eating voraciously!  The puppies are supposed to be at least twenty pounds at eight weeks old (from less than one pound at birth, maybe half a pound?).  Of course, she won't be nursing them the whole time, but I don't know exactly when she'll decide she's had enough and wean them, as it's her first (and only) litter.  

My goats aren't milking yet -- hopefully both does are bred, but I don't expect kids until around the end of April.  Our next-door neighbor will have surplus milk from her goats about the end of February, a little late to help much with the puppies, unfortunately.  But we'll be getting milk from her for the bottle calves.  (She makes soaps and lotions for sale, and dumps the surplus milk out on the ground!)  

Typically, weaning begins at around 6wks, and *usually* is complete by around 8wks.

Yes, but it depends on the mother.  I've seen mothers that were DONE with their puppies at six weeks old, and one that happily kept nursing them well past 8 weeks, the ones she still had with her.  Maggie is a good mom, I just don't know if she's going to do what's typical or not, LOL!

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:

Carla Burke wrote:Typically, weaning begins at around 6wks, and *usually* is complete by around 8wks.

Yes, but it depends on the mother.  I've seen mothers that were DONE with their puppies at six weeks old, and one that happily kept nursing them well past 8 weeks, the ones she still had with her.  Maggie is a good mom, I just don't know if she's going to do what's typical or not, LOL!

Very true, and understandable to be unsure, especially with a first time mama.

Kathleen Sanderson wrote:Yes, but it depends on the mother.  I've seen mothers that were DONE with their puppies at six weeks old, and one that happily kept nursing them well past 8 weeks, the ones she still had with her.  Maggie is a good mom, I just don't know if she's going to do what's typical or not, LOL!

The earliest ours have weaned pups without us helping move things along was 14 weeks. I thought 8 was a good minimum. 🤷‍♀️