how did you find out about permies.com?

I'm trying to be a good site steward and get the word out about this site.  Naturally, some things I try turn out to be really lame.  And other things turn out to be really smart.

How did you find us? 

Word of mouth. My friend told me about the site.

YouTube video      I like pictures! 

Sepp is hard to follow even with the youtube videos, but I try.

~Jami

P.S. How about replacing cascadia with Pacific Northwest?  That would help grow your base.

CurrentWave wrote:
How about replacing cascadia with Pacific Northwest?  That would help grow your base.

What region is it that interests you that is in the PNW but not in cascadia?

  Roseburg down to Ashland, you know south of Eugene - all points Oregon.

Changing the subject:
Do you have pictures of the Sapp inspired changes you made to your land?  You know Show-n-Tell.  And have you made a rocket stove yet?

CurrentWave wrote:
  Roseburg down to Ashland, you know south of Eugene - all points Oregon.

Changing the subject:
Do you have pictures of the Sapp inspired changes you made to your land?  You know Show-n-Tell.  And have you made a rocket stove yet?

Isn't all of that in cascadia?

Sepp changes to land:  I've taken pictures.  I should dig them out and put them up.

Rocket stoves:  a week ago I was at a workshop where we did a greenhouse heater.  Gonna make a video and put that up.  A day ago I saw a very cool looking rocket stove (for cooking) and took pics - gotta put that up.

Um, yes and no -  Cascadia refers to the area surrounding the Cascade mountain range extending from northern California to southern British Columbia.   So it makes me think 'mountain-range' area and not valley, high desert, coastal range blah blah balh..... but it is a big part of the PNW.  So I'm spliting hairs, forgive.

Great - updates!  Gotta love pictures and video. 

Questions to go with your update - You never mentioned Sepp's one book in English by name, I have looked and didn't find any - can I buy a vowel?  And was it good, or do you find the video's a better resource for his philosophies?  And how are his methods working in your neck of the woods?  Are you raising pigs yet (another update I know)....

~Jami

Jami,

I am sorely tempted to answer your question here .... but ....  if you could ask again in the permaculture forum, I would be glad to tell you my recommendations about sepp's books and videos.

Done.  Look for the Dear Paul Thread under Permaculture!

BTW - I know I hijacked this thread, my bad.  It is done a lot around here, and I shouldn't contribute to the problem.  I do know better ♥

~Jami

I'm almost positive Google led me to you, searching for lawn care schtuff.  And the title of your article (Cheap and Lazy) certainly drew me in.  Though then you were richsoil.com...I remember you talking about using permies.com for your forums and viola!  Then I read more, talked to others, became enlightened, and stayed. 

CurrentWave wrote:

Done.   Look for the Dear Paul Thread under Permaculture!

BTW - I know I hijacked this thread, my bad.  It is done a lot around here, and I shouldn't contribute to the problem.  I do know better ♥

~Jami

If I had done better moderating at the beginning, it would probably be better now.  So we all just make the best of it!

a post of yours on homesteadingtoday.com paul! (gotta plug HT !) have pointed people towards both sites, friend who used too live in seattle had seen your site as well before!

HT is really great.  I learn gobs there.  Although I find that one time out of seven I need to make sure I wear my asbestos underwear.  Hooooweee!  And now, apparently, I am on the edge of being banned from there.

... digging .... okay ... found it.  I have received two "infractions" - I'm not sure what that means.  And I guess you need more than two to be banned, but I have no idea how many. 

Nevertheless:  HT is an an excellent forum for farmers, covering the spectrum of organic and not - a bit heavier on the not, I think. 

Speaking of HT:  is it just me, or does that site seem to be down an awful lot?

HT has been having some moments lately, hopefully the bugs will be ironed out again soon!

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one with trouble accessing the HT website. I was beginning to wonder!

I wear my asbestos underwear.  Hooooweee!

Tisk tisk Paul - before you speak up you have to be swimming in the in-crowd, don't you know?

Ha!  Your sooo right!  I stood up to a head butter over there back in Apr 2005, there are a few bullies who feel they own the forum.  The rant got Admin to fix a long standing problem with the forum almost overnight!  And... I put my bully in his place - so all was well that ends well.  I backed off from much involvement from then on seeing how the bullies were allowed to stay around and take pokes at people.  Their agenda was not to help people, but verbally dominate them instead.... and I saw the price others paid if they dared to stand up to them, so I was ready when one tried to take a bite out of me......

HT is a big forum, but it has never had strong technical support in it's backend.

THIS FORUM has a better frame (permaculture) to build on when giving info/advise.
But as with everything, it's the people who make or break it.



Blessings all,

~Jami

We've had sharks.  I ban them.

HT threads - I would make a link, but the threads where I was being bad were deleted.  From my perspective, there were about five people that became hysterical about my new article on chickens.  Rather than discuss the issue, they would attack me.  No big deal, really, I'm used to being attacked. 

Here is the post I wrote that got me an "infraction worth 2 points":

Oh my!  As if the things I say are not crazy enough, they need to be exaggerated to make it sound worse than it really is.

It makes one wonder what the real motivation here is.  Apparently, I am not allowed to have an opinion that is different from others.   For if I do, the witch hunt begins.

Pop on over to see the actual words at http://www.richsoil.com/chickens.jsp

The important thing is that I do say that if one uses a chicken tractor to eliminate ALL of the vegetation from a spot, which is the original design of a chicken tractor, then that forces the chicken to eat plants that may be rather toxic.   And I'm against that.

I go on to say that if a person moves their chicken tractor every few hours, then the chickens eat only the good greens and leave the toxic stuff.  I then give it a rating of 2 on a scale of 0 to 10 to represent that you might be able to cut your feed costs by 20%.  2 = 20%, 3 = 30%, etc.

I do give the other practice a score of -2 on this scale - because it is my opinion that while this is an excellent way to prepare a garden bed, it is not a good way to provide feed for a chicken.  And this particular scale is supposed to be about chicken feed.

And then I go on to rate other factors:

poop cleaning factor: 8 to 10  (so - an excellent rating)

poop hygiene factor: 0 to 7 - 7 for moving the pen every couple of hours. Zero for those that leave the pen until the chickens are standing on an inch thick mat of chicken poop.

I think these opinions are fair and reasonable.   There are many practices I have participated in in the past for which I have changed my mind about.  And I show these practices and discuss them.

Honesty and truth lead to knowledge and growth.

Covering stuff up and attaching shame to the pursuit of knowledge is a recipe for ickiness.

My article advocates a paddock system and attempts to have a thorough comparison to all other systems I am aware of.

It is true that people advocate and practice the use of a chicken tractor to eliminate all vegetation.   They do it proudly and there are, indeed, benefits.  I wish to show pictures of that as part of my article.

Of course, it would seem that some people on this forum are certain that NOBODY uses a chicken tractor this way.  And that EVERYBODY using a chicken tractor, uses it as a mini-salatin-style-pen.  For which I have a whole different section in my article.  Which I review very favorably.  And as for the vegetation factor I state:

vegetation factor: 1 to 3 - lots of pasture stuff but no trees, shrubs or stuff that doesn't do well in pasture. Because it is such a great system, I want to give a higher number. But I think the very best pastured poultry system might cut the feed bill by 30% - so the highest number I can give is a 3.

Perhaps Wisconsin Ann is upset because she is ashamed of what she does and she does not like for me to make others aware of things that she practices.  ??

And here is my post that led to the other infraction, which also has a value of 2 points (whatever that means):

---Quote (Originally by cowcreekgeeks)---
Mr. Wheaton, it seems as if you already have your article written.  Why then, are you asking for input?
---End Quote---
In the past folks in these forums have received my articles very well.  And several folks have encouraged me to post here when I have a new one.

So, that would be the "applause" that you mention.

But in this case, I could use more pictures.  And I feel like I have slapped down a lot of data and I am too close to it.  i see feedback.  And the feedback I have received here is clear that the flow could be optimized.  Further, there appears to be some sort of sensitivity over existing approaches.


---Quote (Originally by cowcreekgeeks)---
I'll give you credit...you know how to stand in the face of adversity.
---End Quote---
It's pretty easy.  I think I've written a great article.  I've received a lot of compliments in email.  And on other forums.  Only on this forum does anyone appear upset.  And I think I am finally figuring out that that seems to be because I am advocating something contrary to what a forum celebrity advocates.  And that celebrity appears to have very loyal fans - therefore I must be riddled with arrows as a demonstration of loyalty.



---Quote (Originally by cowcreekgeeks)---
Christopher Columbus remained adamant that he had found a direct sea route from Spain to Asia...and he, like you, was WRONG. But still, he had a profound impact on the world. His explorations led directly to the opening of the western hemisphere to European colonization; to large-scale exchanges of plants, animals, cultures, and ideas between the two worlds. Oh, yeah! It also led to the deaths of millions of indigenous American peoples from war, forced labor, and disease.
---End Quote---
Classic straw man fallacy.

Your argument is so weak, you have to drag out columbus, attach me to columbus and then push over columbus (the straw man).

Classic.

Your poop stinks.  Hitler's poop stinks.  Hitler killed millions.  Therefore you suck.



---Quote (Originally by cowcreekgeeks)---
I think your paddock will see many, many chickens needlessly die from predation.  I think you are too quick to discount other methods.
---End Quote---
Now this is fair and valid feedback.  You state your opinions as opinions.  As concerns about my opinions.  Healthy stuff.

Predation is a section I have not yet filled out in the article.  And it is important.  And it is something that is managed quite differently between the city and on the farm.  There are far too many facets to this to even write a summary here - especially when people are hanging on my every thought to fill it full of bullet holes.

I think I don't discount other methods so much as I point out that I think small farm methods are superior to factory methods and that I think a paddock system is the best of the lot.  And I go into a lot of detail about how I come to these (personal) conclusions.

Someone here mentioned that I should have a predation factor.  I think that is a good point.  In fact, it may be good to have several predation factors, representing the different kinds of predators.


---Quote (Originally by cowcreekgeeks)---
You have not written an article.  You've written an editorial...send it to the PETA newsletter and be done with it.
---End Quote---
It is, indeed, a pure editorial .... article.   Of course, considering my experience in this space, I suspect that once it is complete it may be publishable as an article not labeled as an editorial.  Of course, most of the articles published in homesteading mags are really editorial articles.

As for PETA:  helloooooo mcfly:  raising chickens for meat?  eggs?  PETA is against all of that.  Besides, I think I have stated in this forum in the past that I think PETA sucks.

I have these because they were sent to me by the HT mod as proof of my poor behavior.  While these two posts represent less than 5% of what I said during this little adventure, I'm actually pretty proud of these two posts.  So I am glad to relay them here. 

Sorry for the thread hijack.  I'll try to step away from HT and let folks get back to talking about how they found permies.com!

well it was not me shut ya down on that thread paul! it takes different methods to do things all over, if we free range birds here we are just feeding the wildlife!
there was also an HT mod that encouraged your posts.
i have given out the same punishment to persons that have been disrespectful of  others and have gotten the same (many years ago!) when i lost my quick temper!

Yup, most of the time, my experiences at HT are silky smooth, and my comments are appreciated. 

This latest exchange illuminated things that I wasn't aware of at HT.  Not only a sort of mob mentality, but that there are staff that support the mob.  I kept thinking that the attacks against me would start to disappear due to moderation, but instead ...  well ... lesson learned.

I was shopping for redworms, googled my way in.

kpeavey wrote:
I was shopping for redworms, googled my way in.

We have something about redworms that is more googly than other sites?

Spiffy!

Must be.

I saw one of your videos on youtube with the promo at the end.

Something in the last two weeks must have done something right cuz usership is way up.  I did post two new videos .... maybe that was part of it.

I have noticed that too....  Don't you have a stat tracker, it will give you the url people are coming from.  With some quick investigation you can find out how many are jumping in from google, or what...

Yes, I have two different stat trackers.  Both show that 1/3 are coming from search engines, 1/3 are coming from links on sites and 1/3 are coming direct. 

I learned about this forum by posting a topic in the gardenweb permaculture forum, asking if there was a more active permaculture forum.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/permacult/msg0713503417918.html?15

LoonyK wrote:
I learned about this forum by posting a topic in the gardenweb permaculture forum, asking if there was a more active permaculture forum.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/permacult/msg0713503417918.html?15

I tried to use their forums a long time ago ... I may have posted a dozen posts - but I guess it just wasn't a good fit for me.

Ran Prieur linked to your article about hugelkultur, from his land blog.

I liked that article, and kept reading, then eventually was moved to reply.

i was looking for answers and you have alot

Google! 

Stumbled, Blind Luck and my old mate Google

Two factors brought me here.  The first is that my neighbor (Marina) told me about it, said everyone was very nice and polite.  I went to check it out when I was online but she had told me the name by voice, and somehow, I had registered "permease"... then the very day I had attempted to find that (half-heartedly), I was researching Sepp Holzer (I am inspired by him, have all his videos, etc) and found Paul's page about Sepp which is awesome, I love the root cellar pics, I'm SO building one of those this season.

It's funny, because I've been to Paul's other site, javaranch before, as I have long done programming, and java is my preferred language.

So then here I was. 
Joshua

Not many people make the connection between permies and javaranch. 

For the googlers:  you must have been googling for something really ....  unique .... to end up at these pages!

Am… how… I have absolutely no idea… It was messy.
When I have enough mental energy and I’m researching something I am following really long trails on the web. I came here like the 5th link, it means I’m googling something and this is 1st link then I’m going to some of the sites and that is second link they have favorites or links or stuff like that and that is the third link and from there two more times and I’m here, so… you know… I’m totally lost, and still right where I belong.

I’m trying to grasp the whole site at once and wow… I’m having a hard time… and it is like that for 3 full days constant reading now. Today I gave up and I have decided to register before I can have somewhat comprehensive picture of the extent of this site. It is huge… and all of it is interesting… I don’t know how I have missed it so far.

I want to express my deep, DEEP! Gratitude for the creator… omg! I still don’t know who made the site!
I was completely sold out for the forum already and I was just going to register and the only rule was “be nice” and this just melted my heart. Thank you so much.

Extremely useful, lots of info, great people, simple, wonderful place!

Ah about the people here… love you guys it is a pleasure existing with you.

Well… I don’t know what more to say … I guess it is obvious that I’m a bit excited right now. I just wanted to say that what is created here is a wonderful thing.

Be nice.

I went to Kelda's permaculture presentation in Tacoma a week ago, and googling from her site got me here - and Iliya has described my reaction exactly!  I'm rich!!!   Now, back to delving

I was looking for clear info on rocket mass heaters and this was the site that had drawings I could grasp easily.  Nice work, Paul!  Odd that it beat out, for my attention, the site that I bought the book from.

chris

Robert,

So you saw my ad in permaculture magazine?