Diet Contradictions and Controversies!!

I have seen soooo many contradictions over the past few years researching diets. How are you supposed to take anything seriously.
Everybody says so many different things.
Everyone knows you're supposed to eat plants, plants are great for you! But-
Carnivore diet (Dr. Ken Berry) says plants are actually horrible for you, building up salicylic acid, oxalates, histamines etc, and you can get all the vitamins and minerals you need from meat. But-
Jethro Kloss (Back to Eden) says never eat meat, meat is horrible for you, especially organ meats because they're filters filtering out the yuck from the animal's system. But-
He also says Soy is good for you and you should eat it whenever possible. But-
Dr. Ramiel (Healing Tooth Decay Naturally) says you should limit Soy, and only eat it fermented properly. He also says that you should drink 2-3 cups of milk and other dairy products a day. But-
Other people (Jordan RAW) say that milk is really bad for you, draws calcium from your bones and teeth. And cheese is even worse-apparently the casein is addictive.
Some say coffee is good for you, others say it's bad.
Some say all fruit is the way to eat. Others say it makes you non confrontational and tired.
Eat like your ancestors but how are you supposed to deal with that when you're Ellis Island Mystery Meat!
Eat what makes your body feel good, but the bad stuff tricks you into thinking that you really do feel good when you eat addictive things like sugar!
Potatoes are a wholesome vegetable-but wait they're carbs...
Carrots are a healthy veg...but wait it "converts to sugar"
Basically the only thing it seems anybody can agree on is don't eat white sugar or white flour.

Yeah, for real. And it seems like 99% of people are SURE that what they think is correct.

Hi Almond,
I am not a diet or food expert so take this with a grain of salt (wait is salt healthy? lol) I do not agree with Dr. Ken Berry on everything, but I like that he says people shouldn't "diet", but instead eat the proper human food. Diet implies a temporary thing then going back to what you were doing before. If the diet is healthy it ought to be sustainable for your life, not just for 6 months.

I have done a lot of research on various diets and nutrition. There is a lot of controversy, but when you dig in, I think there are some clear paths. One thing to keep in mind is that people have been eating meat and plants for thousands of years. I don't think it is necessary to completely rule out one or the other.

Lets start with some things that are not very controversial at all. Our bodies need water. They need enough water, and most people (at least in the US) are going around partially dehydrated. Dehydration can cause all sorts of problems with our health, so getting enough water is important.

Our bodies need vitamins and minerals to function. We need to get enough vitamins and minerals. There are vitamins and minerals in both meat and plants in various amounts. I would suggest going for the most nutrient dense foods, so you do not need to eat as much volume. I think meat tends to win out on nutrient density, but anything homegrown is going to be far superior to store-bought anything. A recent study (heard from Joel Salatin speech) that it took 10 of the worst carrots to equal the nutritional value of one of the best carrots. If we do not have enough vitamins and minerals, our bodies will tell us to keep eating so it can get what it needs. If we keep eating junk, it will be forever to get enough.

Our bodies need fat. We need to get enough fat. Fats break down to fatty acids that help our bodies absorb the vitamins and minerals we just talked about. People have this misconception that eating fat will make us fat... it doesn't. Fat helps protect our organs, supports cell growth, and help with cholesterol and blood pressure. I believe it also can help with blood sugar levels.

Our bodies need protein. We need to get enough protein. Proteins are the building blocks of everything. We need them to repair and build cells... which is us, so very important :)

Our bodies do not need added sugar. While sugar is needed for some things, our bodies can make sugar from the proteins. Unfortunately it does not go the other way :)

Most of that I don't believe is controversial. It is the interpretation that is controversial.  Having done research, my interpretation of all that, is that the healthiest diet will be heavy on good fats and meats, some fruits and veggies, low on high-carb fruits and veggies, and nothing super processed in the modern commercial "food" production.

Just don't ask me if I follow that diet completely :)

I only know what works, for me - and frankly, couldn't care less what the popular diet du jour happens to be. I'm an omnivore. I try hard not to eat overly processed foods &/or man-made chemicals - including trans-fats and other highly modified fats. I pay close attention to my body, which doesn't tolerate 'conventionally grown' wheat, but seems to be fine with organic, particularly if it's sprouted, and it functions substantially better with lower-carb intake (I'm usually ok between 20 & 80g/day), and primarily if those carbs are low-glycemic & complex, rather than simple. That means I do better, when I rather strictly limit grains, and eat lower-to-moderate amounts of tubers & fruits. I try hard to avoid things with highly processed sugars, preferring honey, maple syrup, molasses, stevia, monkfruit, and some erythritol (probably the most processed thing I eat, but it's still organically sourced).

I do better with some dairy - preferably raw, and a varied mix of fat types. Nuts play a big role, in my diet,  but I'm careful with legumes, including peanuts, soy, and cashews, because they can aggravate or cause inflammation, for me,  if I ingest too much. I eat a wide variety of meats, fish, shellfish, and poultry. There are few vegetables I won't eat, which makes it easy for me to not overdo it on any one type of vegetal compound that might create an imbalance in my body. My body and I enjoy a variety of fermented foods, primarily lacto-fermented, and kefir based, and my gut is much happier, when I eat them frequently.

When my body goes into a state of weirdness, my first response is always 'what have I been eating, lately?' Usually, it turns out that I've become lax about some aspect of the above. *My* easiest, fastest reset is to go hard-core keto for a couple weeks. So, how does all of that fit into the cultural/ diet narrative? I don't think it really does. I am not a nutritional expert - but, I've become THE TOP expert on MY physical and emotional/mental health, what it does, how it works or doesn't, and why (including its responses to stress, increased/decreased activity, & environmental fluctuations and stagnancies).

Our bodies are as unique as our personalities, so why would we all ascribe to any one person's or group's ideologies about how to best care for *our* body?

I look to evolution for the answer.  For several hundred thousand years, humans ate meat and vegetables, with very low sugar fruits available seasonally.  It makes sense to me to eat that way.  

I'm with Trace on this one. Whenever we have competing prescriptions for how to be healthy (especially when it comes to what we eat) I think the best thing to ingest is a grain of salt.

Look at history, and look at indigenous cultures with little or no outside influence on their traditional diets. Then look at your own situation: what foods grow in your locality, and what your ancestors typically hunted or harvested. Evolution plays the long game, and cultures that stick around tend to co-evolve alongside our metabolic precesses as people adapt to their foodscapes. That's why we have populations who are well adapted to eating lots of animal fat (Inuit, Saami), those who can digest milk as adults (herding and pastoral cultures from many regions), and those who get most of their energetic requirements from grains like rice, wheat, or millet.

We're a bunch of highly adaptable omnivores, but our genes often steer us into a "comfort zone" of certain food types. Knowing what these are is a good starting point. One thing that very few people (if any) have the genetic wiring for is highly processed manufactured food-like substances. Cutting these out or keeping them to a bare minimum is the most obvious thing to do if you want to make positive dietary changes. And avoid anything that just sounds radical or wacky, because it probably is.

Critical thinking is your friend in so many ways. Friends help one another out.

Similar to what Carla said, my suggestion would be to find what works for you and not worry about all the conflicting info out there.

I am a Dr. Atkins' fan though since he died those that bought the rights turned his info into only something to make money.

I also like what Dr. Mercola and Dr. Axe have to say about some things.

Talking about diet is almost as bad as talking about politics or maybe worse.

Stick with what works for you and don't worry about the diet contradictions and controversies.

I think that growing and then eating/selling rice in the desert of California is bad, because the area doesn't have enough water and so it will lead to crop failure, when there is a year of low rainfall and thus stealing/wars. or there will not be enough water for folks downstream and so there will be war/etc.

So we have to think of our diet as a part of our location/culture. Similarly I don't think it is good idea to grow tropical banana in the frigid cold of Canada/Russia because it uses so much energy and isn't as sustainable.

I can also see how growing 1000lbs of corn to grow/feed 100lbs of sheep to grow/feed 10lbs of wolf isn't as sustainable and why we might say that as a culture we don't eat wolf, because it is too resource intensify. Maybe it will be limited for just the nobles/king or during religious ceremonies/etc. Also wolves/alligator will attack and kill us back vs say a sheep, and thus as a tribe/culture we will have a higher death rate and not live as long so it makes sense to outlaw it.

Good health/long life isn't just from about food, it is also due to stealing/war/stress/activity level. So I can see why a certain culture/study might say "don't eat banana/rice/meat".

We also have to realize that we have changed how we make and prepare our food. Currently alot of honey is made from high fructose corn syrup that is feed to honey bees 20ft away from their hives and so while historically honey was healthy, I am not too sure that the new type of honey that is being mass produced now is as good. Ditto for tofu/soy sauce. Those use to be fermented food filled with probiotics, enzymes and vitamins, with most anti-nutrients and hormones processed. But what we are buying now isn't the same as traditional food.

Our meats are not the same, the ratio of omega3 to omega6 is different, they aren't as lean, they are given alot of medication and anti-biotic.

We also don't process our food internally the way that we did historically. Before we would sweat alot and need alot of electrolytes to replace what we sweat out so we could eat salty/fermented food without as much worry, but now people say that sweating is low-class and disgusting and stink, so now all the salts and waste products build up inside us and overwork our kidney/liver/etc.

Ditto for us eating 3,000 or 4,000 calories per day of starchy food/fruits/meat/pizza, in the "old day". We were very active and actually needed to eat that much to stay alive. But now we drive the kids to school that is 600ft away because of stranger danger, or because it is too hot/cold/windy/etc.

Before we use to slow cook our food breaking down anti-nutrients, now we just microwave and fast cook food. I think that is some of the reason why we will see that X study that proves that something is good if made the tradition way with a traditional lifestyle, but then another study will say that the same food/diet is bad, if it is made in the fast food-industrial way and we live in a AC- drive everywhere way.

they want you to be confused, because the ones pushing the fad diets are always, always selling something.

Eat real food, Mostly plants. Don't overdo any one thing

Ask yourself - could I make this at home? If not, its probably best to not eat it, or only have on special occasions. (White rice is a favourite example here)

Look how traditional cultures ate. Legumes and grains were eaten together, bones were stewed for a long time, many foods were fermented. Sugar was special. Oil was expensive and cold pressed.

Find what works best for you. Don't think some person on tiktok selling some supplement has your best interests in mind.

there are a lot of wise things here, but i'd add:

- getting older provides you good experience in what makes you feel best. observe! do what seems to make sense for you (and for your conscience, and for where you live, etc. I get inordinate pleasure from eating locally, because I can, so I do. being happy is also important.)

- getting older also gives you an interesting perspective on how the "old stuff" often turns out to be right. Something that seems too good to be true generally is disproven. Magical sweeteners/fats/etc often turn out to have drawbacks (olestra? now we're seeing splenda? watch this space...). Common sense often turns out to be right, and there seem to be very few shortcuts. not to say it's not worth keeping up on new developments, but rather to stay smart and stay shrewd.

Over the years, I have tried a lot of different diets. What I have found, is that it depends on who you are, what your genes are and where you grow up.
Lots of studies has shown, that there are no 1 diet that fits everyone. Take two different groups of people from across the globe as an example. The Eskimos in Greenland, Northern Lapland and Russia, and verses the aboriginals in Australia. All of these people has one thing in common, that ones they strayed from their original diet, they all started to get sick. Diseases like cancer and heart disease was unknown to these people until they were introduced to a different diet than what they had existed on for centuries. In Australia they have now taken the consequences of that and are now encouraging the aboriginals to return to their previous diet and lifestyle.
The eskimos used, too and still are to a wide extend, consume mostly raw fish and raw meat, with herbs and vegetables during the summer months. The aboriginals diet consisted mostly of foraged vegetables and greens, combined with meat from smaller animals and reptiles caught during migration.
I have done a lot of research into this, because we have a lot of food allergies and food intolerances in our family, and non of us got better until we started to individualize each persons diet. The children and I have celiac disease so our bodies can’t handle the gluten protein. My oldest and I can’t consume anything from the nightshade family, and my youngest daughter and I can’t consume any dairy.
My oldest daughter functions best if she get rice in her diet, and can’t eat a lot of food raw. My youngest daughter feel the best, if at least 50% of her food are raw. My husband get sick, if he eats carbohydrates, but does fantastically on a carnivore diet. My son was born with Asperger’s syndrome and can eat most foods, but need a lot of protein and a daily intake of fermented foods. He eats kimchi like it’s candy. He also has to stay away from gluten, dairy and processed foods. As a child he was unable to communicate, until we changed his diet. Once we removed processed foods, dairy and gluten, miracles started to happen. He are now high functioning and studying accounting in college, and has a lot of online friends he talks to and play games online with. He is a vividly creative cook, who loves to experiment with fresh ingredients and spices.

Me? I can only consume food that’s freshly made, no leftovers for me and I need my diet to be at least 50% protein.
Many years ago I tried a vegetarian and later vegan diet, and I got very very sick. As it turns out, my body can’t process any legumes. They make me very very sick. As a vegetarian/vegan I was left with nuts as a protein source, so I got sick. Even with 50% of my food being protein, my blood work still tells my naturopath, that I don’t get enough protein. A carnivore diet doesn’t work for me either, since red meat are hung, and there for not as fresh as my body needs. My main protein sources are still nuts, but also poultry, rabbit and eggs. I also need a lot of herbs in my diet, and like my son fermented foods, or I get malnourished.

My point is, that you have to listen to what your body tells you. What food gives you energy? What foods make you feel good in your body? What foods make you stronger? The time are gone, when one diet fit all. We are all different people with different backgrounds, locations and genetics, so it’s up to you to figure out, what’s best for you. No diet fits all, and it’s time the world realizes that.

6 years ago I was 6' and 243lbs. and bloodwork was getting bad, doc was talking about getting me on some meds.

Started to eat more healthy and exercise. Today I'm 176 lbs.off anti-depressant and anxiety meds. I used CBD for awhile which worked fantastically but no longer, I speed-walk my two fur kids 2-4 miles every day, just got the best bloodwork results I've had in a long time, cholesterol, trig and glycemics are now all are very within normal range, had one cancer colon polyp a year ago, just had another exam and everything is all clear!

I eat a high fiber, low carb-saturated fat and low sugar diet  (lots of EVOO, oatmeal, beans, veggies, homemade bread and tons of hot peppers!!!) and walk and lift, did yoga but waiting for wrist injury to improve.

That's it, just eat healthy and exercise.

Almond, you forgot the Guy (Dr Max Gerson) who says not to drink the coffee, but to instead give yourself an enema with it. (None for me thanks!)

I think the thing that anyone that isn't a corporate shill or paid by Big Pharma agrees on is that all foods that are grown in the ground, hunted, or raised for eating as close to how nature does it as possible are right for someone to eat some or all of the time. The trick is that not all diets are right for every person or at all times. Some systems are more sensitive than others- you can't put diesel in a jet engine and your lawn mower won't run on vegetable oil.

Just to keep in line with the other people refuting things...Here are some scientists who published a scholarly study saying that a coffee enema is bad for people (I believe them) : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7478478/

Christopher Weeks wrote:Yeah, for real. And it seems like 99% of people are SURE that what they think is correct.

Exactly, Chris!

Matt-
Makes sense about the diet thing. I feel like there's two definitions to diet: one is temporary and one describes your way of eating.
Water: Uncontroversial, no arguments there
Vitamins and Minerals: Bring on the controversy! I have naturopaths who say it is literally impossible to get all the vitamins and minerals you need from the food you eat, even if you grow 100%, because everything is just so nasty and depleted, so you need x y and z supplements. And the supplements do work! But conversely, his coworkers say they don't take any supplements, only "eating healthy", and you don't need them. I think the supplements do work but still, there's so much goodness in a berry or a carrot that helps absorb it, even if it's not the same level as the capsule supplement.
Fat: No argument!
Sugar: By added sugar do you mean natural sugars as well like fruit/honey/maple syrup?

Just being difficult here: I totally agree about the fast food/processed food, it's a no-brainer. But I might add that some of the Carnivore people feel it's better to eat a McDonalds meat patty instead of an organic salad. (I have to say though that a lot of these people on the carnivore have severe allergies to everything except meat)

Hi Almond,

Vitamins and Minerals - I'll give you this one :), while the fact that we need enough of them is not controversial, where and how to get them certainly is.

Sugar - I put "no added sugar" to try to make it less controversial :), and I was referring to a human adding sugar to a product. In reality, if we ate no sugar whatsoever, our bodies could still create the limited sugar we need from proteins. I personally think a healthy diet would be low in all kinds of sugar, man-made/processed as well as natural. However, natural sugars generally come in a food that includes vitamins and minerals and fiber and other good stuff with the sugar, while most man-made or man-processed sugars are basically just sugar with nothing else. So, if I was going to have sugar, I would try to make it natural sugar.

Well, part of the problem with that is relying on an advice or opinion of someone else for your information.  It's a starting point only.  

Go back to the science.  Look at metabolism.  Look at comparative biology.  Look at evolution.  Then consider the source;  usually you can find MONEY at the root of the propoganda/advice.   Are they selling a book?  Promoting a product?  Getting paid by an organization trying to find an outlet for surplus subsidized foods?  Trying to market a byproduct by finding a nutritional niche?

I think that there are diets that can help with specific illness (e.g. diabetes)  and diets that people in specific jobs (construction vs accountant) and then there are diets for specific reason (e.g. not being the only one not drinking/eating at a party/vacation/etc)

I think it is fine to have a scholarly debate about the best/cheapest/most readily available/most easily digested source of vitamin C. But for someone who is already sick due to not having a source for any type of vitamin C, any and all is good enough.

Given the fact that most people on this site don't really have a problem with getting enough calories and the problem is more about getting enough medicinal compound from their food and enough (vitamin/mineral/enzymes/anti-oxidant/etc), the initial focus could be to keep on doing what you are doing but add more "goodness" (herbs/vegetable/ferments). Then the next step could be balancing the amount of calories that we use vs eat. That could be either eating less or exercising more.

Personally I think it is hard to have a conversation about diets/health without tackling getting enough sleep, drinking enough water,  having a less stressful mindset. It's not events that are stressful it's our reactions that are. Someone accidentally step on your shoes, you don't have to beat them up and it doesn't have to be a sign that they hate you and you have to hide.  Cortisol from stress is know to to trigger alot of mental and physical sickness, it will also make us turn to "comfort food" and it will actually make us convert more of our food into long term reserves for future hard "famine"  times, when we will be running, hiding or fighting and not able to farm food.

The bean vs chicken vs lettuce that we eat doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is one of a thousand moving parts. We tend to focus too much on the external food and "magically"  herb/pill/Himalayan salt that will fix everything when really it is less about the food intake and more about our stress level/mindset/etc. I like the fact that on permies.com we don't focus on the stressful/evil corporation and more on the tiny things that we can do everyday to help, which over 5years ends up being life-changing and positive.

Almond Thompson wrote:Matt-
Makes sense about the diet thing. I feel like there's two definitions to diet: one is temporary and one describes your way of eating.
Water: Uncontroversial, no arguments there
Vitamins and Minerals: Bring on the controversy! I have naturopaths who say it is literally impossible to get all the vitamins and minerals you need from the food you eat, even if you grow 100%, because everything is just so nasty and depleted, so you need x y and z supplements. )

Maybe, but isn’t that why we use permaculture methods to grow? Allan Booker said during his class about soil regeneration, that we need to focus on healthy soil and inoculation, so we can grow healthier plants. Hellen A says similar things, that we need to look at brix in plants, and turn our focus from the plant to the soil. If you have a healthy soil full of nutrients, then your plants will also be full of nutrients. It’s why we as gardeners and farmers has to focus on the soil food web. With a good healthy soil food web, the plants get better access to the nutrients they need, and we there by get plants that’s better for us to eat. AB said that plants this healthy won’t get insect attacks, since the insects can digest plants that are this healthy and have a high level of nutrients. He theorizes that these kinds of plants eventually will be able to cure diseases like cancer. What we need to do, is turn our focus on the soil first before we start growing food. Once the soil has a good food web, are healthy and full of nutrients, that’s when we start adding plants for human consumption. In the beginning we grow plants to feed the soil food web, instead of us. Later we will have to maintain it, using covercrops and crop rotation, so we don’t deplete the soil again.

Ulla Bisgaard wrote:...If you have a healthy soil full of nutrients, then your plants will also be full of nutrients...

Maybe. I've been wondering though, the more I look at alternatives. Here's an interesting ten minutes presenting evidence that plant genetics plays a greater role than does e.g. soil mineral balance:

Sounds great, Carla! It's hard to get to that point, but I'm working on it!

Trace, I would agree with this. But some people say that we used to only eat meat with vegetables being a famine food, others say vice versa.

Very true, Phil

Anne: Oh I definitely will be trying different things. I'm not really losing sleep over this haha, I just noticed all this conflicting information and thought it was interesting and ironic. Great conversations going on!

S Bengi: Yes, I think the very best thing for anybody is to get back to the general way of old living

Daniel: These are definitely not tiktok diet fads, lol. I've researched this stuff from people I know in real life, actual Dr.s on youtube with results, modern diet books, diets from the 70's, 40's, 20's, 1900's, etc. I truly think these people (at least most of them) aren't trying to sell stuff and really do believe their way is best and are trying to help.

So true Tereza! I have noticed as my diet is including more whole foods that I am way more sensitive to processed yucky stuff. Absolutely agree that happiness has a huge part

That is great, Ulla! So glad you guys stuck with it and were able to figure it out!!
On the subject of native people deviating from their traditional diet, check out this great but really sad video:

Kyle: exercise DEFINITELY has a huge part in it. Glad you are doing better!!

lol Cat! This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about!

Good points, Matt

That is true, Heather, except it seems like there is money behind everything.

Great points, S Bengi. Tailor the diet to the job.

Ooh I saved that video Christopher. Look good.

Christopher Weeks wrote:

Ulla Bisgaard wrote:...If you have a healthy soil full of nutrients, then your plants will also be full of nutrients...

Maybe. I've been wondering though, the more I look at alternatives. Here's an interesting ten minutes:

]

It’s an interesting video. What I think, is that we can’t just do soil amendments. In one of his classes here, Allan Brooker talked about not just do soil amendments and create a healthy soil, but to also work at getting healthy plants. He said that we need to both do inoculations of seedlings before we plant them out, and only select the healthiest seedlings. After that we need to use seeds, from the plant that does the best, so we continue to improve the plants genetics as well. I don’t know enough about plant genetics and biochemistry to discuss it, but it makes sense when you look at plants in the wild.
In the wilds you see that only the strongest survive, and we want those strong healthy plants in our food, and into our animals as food for them. I found those classes very interesting. As far as I understand, it’s part of the research he are doing now.
In my own garden, I have found that I see fewer pests in areas where I have only planted the healthiest seedlings, which I do find interesting. I actually inoculated all of my seedlings this year, and my yield has grown with over 30%. For example, my cucumbers has had no pests at all, except for rats.

I think it's so dependent on one's unique constitution and family genetics.  Some things are probably "bad" though, trans fats, too much sugar, too much sodium and although somewhat controversial, I think too much saturated fat. I follow heart health guidelines via Cleveland Clinic, etc. and most of their thinking is that sat. fats should be limited. I do dairy, but low fat. Don't miss beef, pork or turkey. I eat a little fish and chicken, but could easily ditch it someday.  I think certain vitamins, supplements and herbs help our health, too.   Other lifestyle factors are equally important in keeping healthy, exercise, stress reduction and paying attention to our emotional /psychological health which impacts our overall health.

Actually water and the whole “if you’re thirsty you’re already dehydrated “ thing IS controversial (or should be.)

So many humans force fluids and just as people above have said about plants and how their needs are affected by their specific environment, our need for fluid is very variable. We get thirsty when we need to drink. There’s no right amount of water, and no two people are the same.

If we do not get thirsty, or are frequently thirsty, those are signs of imbalance. But how can we possibly know if we are thirsty if we are constantly forcing fluids? (As most people are.)

This is something I run into all the time in my practice as an acupuncturist and herbalist. I’m not going to weigh in about food (even though in my training food is seen as medicine) because again, no one size fits all. The zillion food fads out there can be a real hazard!

That water thing is funny. I drink about a gallon of water per day, just as my natural routine. And I occasionally run into people who act like I'm more virtuous than they are and how they should be more like me. But I just drink the amount I want to and if I only wanted two glasses per day, that's what I'd drink.

Hi Naomi,

Welcome to Permies.

Hi Nancy,

Welcome to Permies.