How about creating sourdough starters together?

Autumn has arrived.. That means it’s a perfect time to create a sourdough starter!

Heating the oven for baking bread heats the house too and nothing beats the smell and taste of fresh bread when it’s cold and dark and wet and gloomy outside.

I was thinking that we could create sourdough starters together!

That way we could cheer eachother and celebrate when things go bubbly and troubleshoot together when there are weird liquids appearing on top of our starters!

I’m not an expert but I do know the basics and I believe we have so much knowledge in our community here in Permies that I’m sure we could get a starter going for everyone who wants to try and after that we could go through the basics of sourdough baking too.

I was thinking that we could start on Sunday and maybe talk about the things needed (water, flour, a kitchen scale, time) before that.

What do you think? Would you join a sourdough starter party?

Ooh! I *just* started my new starter last week!

I used rye flour, wheat flour, and a few raisins mixed with filtered water in a jar with cloth on top.

It’s not as active as I’d like yet, but I have used and refreshed a few times for foodstuffs that don’t need to be so airy—cornbread, pancakes, flatbread.  Hope it will kick into gear with more use as baking season progresses.

Yay for your new starter! I hope there will be plenty of bubbles soon. It took me over a month with my first starter to get to fully functioning! I wasn’t giving it enough warmth.

That’s why I thought it would be fun to do a sourdough starter party, so that we could help eachother troubleshoot problems and learn to ”read” the starter. It’s possible to create a mature sourdough starter in about a week (although the flavours will get even better after that!).

But raisins, interesting! That’s a trick I have never heard! There are indeed many ways for creating a new starter, I made my first one with just basic wheat flour and water. Wholegrain flour is commonly used as a ”boost” I think, as is rye.

I killed my starter last spring by neglecting it, but I do have a ”copy” dehydrated in the cupboard! I’m actually going to rehydrate and bring it to life again, but it’s basicly the same process as starting a new starter.

I thought the raisins might help b/c they are used for yeast in kvass and other things. It’s my first time using them. I had to abandon my previous sourdough starter during a long kitchen remodel, so I’m starting from scratch in a room that hasn’t had much baking yet.

I'm considering starting my first very soon.  I bought an old vintage crock from an antique store for it.  I haven't measured its volume capacity yet, but I estimate it'll hold a half gallon, maybe a bit more.  It has a crack along the bottom, but I think it'll work well enough for sourdough starter.  Now, I just need to figure out how to do an initial sterilization without worsening the crack.  I plan on eventually making a wooden lid for the crock that should let it off gas on its own, but for now, I'll use a cloth cover.

I do have whole wheat flour, and some bread makers yeast.  I know from my winemaking days that most fruit has yeast on the skin that can start the fermentation process.  I don't know much about the flavor profiles that everyone seems to like best, so that seems like a moving target for me.  I'm basically planning on operating with the theory that if it tastes good eat it.  If it smells offensive, something might not be balanced right.  I really need to learn more I think before jumping in though.

Cy, I hope this thread will help you so you gain the confidence to jump in! I did find sourdough baking intimidating at first and it took me a while to get to the point of actually starting!


For anyone who might be interested in this all, I thought I would write some sourdough starter basics:
As I previously said, I'm not an expert and there are many ways of starting a sourdough culture. Also, English is not my first language, so please do correct me if I'm using really wrong words.


What is a sourdough starter?

Sourdough starter is basicly a culture of yeasts and bacteria. We want to have a happy little community of yeasts and bacteria living in a jar in our fridge or our kitchen table. When we bake bread with a sourdough starter, we are using the culture to ferment the dough, making the nutrients more available to us. The fermentation process is also responsible for the delicious taste. And of course the yeasts are responsible for the rising of the bread!

Sourdough bread is not actually sour tasting.

Well, it can be. The longer you let the dough ferment, the more sour it will get. The sour taste is not the goal here though.

All we need for a sourdough starter is fresh flour and clean water.

The yeasts we need are already hanging out in the flour. That's why whole wheat flour is commonly used as a "boost" when starting a sourdough starter. The whole grain made into flour obviously has more yeasts in it, which can make starting the culture easier.
When creating a sourdough starter the flour needs to be somewhat fresh. I'm not saying it needs to be milled yesterday or last week, just that the "best before date" is not lurking around the corner. The fresher the better.
The flour also needs to be "just flour". It needs to be free from additives. It doesn't matter if it's wheat or rye or barley.

Water needs to be clean. Chlorinated water can be a problem. I would go for filtered water or spring water.

A container for the starter. My starter lives in a old honey jar. It can hold about 4dl of water. That would be roughly 1,7 cups of water. That jar is big enough to contain the doubled up starter that I need for baking one loaf of bread. You do need some kind of a (loose) lid to it. A cloth is fine.

How on earth is it possible to house it in such a small jar, you ask? We are feeding it and it expands, right?

That's where discard comes in to play. I only feed a spoonful of the culture, the rest is called discard. We won't actually discard it though, we can use it to bake stuff that does not need the rise from the yeast.
Discard pancakes? Yum. A great breakfast item. I feed my starter in the evening and make a pancake batter from the discard (just the discard, water and flour). I let the batter to sit on the table overnight and in the morning I have a nicely fermented pancake batter ready. (Okay, I do need to add the egg, some melted butter and the baking soda and baking powder to it before frying the pancakes.) You can also store the discard in a jar in the fridge to be used later. I have one discard jar I add into and use from sitting in the fridge.


As I mentioned, I had difficulties with the ambient temperature when I first tried to create a sourdough starter. The yeasts like a temperature around 21C-27C (70F-82F).
That's what we are aiming for when we are trying to establish a culture (and when feeding to use it for baking). I will usually put the jar in the oven with a stainless steel container that has hot water in it. Sometimes it hangs out on top of our masonry heater. (Cy, your crock pot could be a nice place for the starter jar to live in, maybe?)
The temperatures are not set in stone, but it will have an effect. The starter can be sluggish if it's colder and double up faster when it's warmer.

(That's why my goal is to "learn to read" the starter. To know what things affect it and how to respond when the starter behaves the way it behaves. That's what I'm hoping everyone would get from this "sourdough starter along" of mine.)

When the starter culture is mature and established it can live in the fridge and only needs to be fed once a week. I usually bake every other day so my starter lives in room temperature and I feed it every day.


The third thing I think I said was needed was time.

When creating a sourdough starter, it needs to be fed every 12 hours. For a week. Yup. (You are probably going to bond with it and it will tell you it's name and then you will be friends forever.)
Well, to be honest, you don't need to do it that way. But I have found it quite reliable to do it this way. There are many ways. I feel that the frequent tending also makes it easier to learn to read the starter.

I'm not going to go into the time needed for the baking bread part yet in this post.

I highly recommend a kitchen scale for sourdough baking.

If three people measure a cup of flour the differences can be huge. One presses the flour to the measuring cup, other one just scoops it all fluffy. My process for creating the starter also uses weight as a measure for the water and flour (it will make it easier because we are going to talk about feeding ratios) so.. A kitchen scale that can measure full grams. Recommended. (I can post measurements in volume if someone needs them.)


Even though no one has actually said they will join me, I'm going to start (maybe a new thread) on sunday. I will post every day and write about what I'm doing and what is happening with the starter.
I will write more stuff on this thread tomorrow.. Maybe about the actual sourdough bread baking process so that there's some kind of idea on the timelines and stuff.

Please do ask questions if there are any!

Great "starter" on sourdough starter, Saana!  If it is Ok with you, I will "join" with my week-old starter this Sunday?

Mk Neal wrote:Great "starter" on sourdough starter, Saana!  If it is Ok with you, I will "join" with my week-old starter this Sunday?

Thank you! And yes, it’s totally okay to join with your starter!

Yaay! You made my day! It would’ve been sad if no one had joined.

I thought that today I would write about the actual baking bread with a sourdough starter so that there's some kind of idea of what we are heading into.

Baking bread with a sourdough starter takes quite bit of time. The time that goes into actually doing things is not a lot (maybe half an hour in total), but there is a lot of waiting in between the doing.

Here are the steps in my process of baking (again, there are many right ways for doing things, this is just the way I do it)

1. (the evening before) feeding the starter, 1:5:5 ratio
2. mixing the dough
(rest for an hour, autolyse)
3. add salt, rest for an half an hour
4. bulk ferment for about 4 hours (so that the dough rises up 30-50%), streching and folding every half an hour or so at least 3-4 times (this builds the gluten net)
5. shape, let it rest for 20 minutes, shape again and put in to a proofing basket
6. Stick it in the fridge (colf proof)
7. (next morning) bake the bread

It takes time.
A lot of this process can be altered, but the dough really needs the bulk fermentation, and that takes at least 4 hours, but it could be longer. Ambient temperature affects.
Cold proof part could be only 1 hour or it could be over 24 hours. You can also bake two loaves from one bigger dough, baking the other after 1 hour of cold proof and the other next day.

I feed my starter the evening before using 1:5:5 ratio. That means 1 part starter, 5 parts water and 5 parts flour. For one loaf that means 10 grams starter and 50 grams both water and flour.
That way my starter has doubled up in the morning.
If I didn't feed it the evening before but feel like baking today, I would feed the starter in the morning on 1:1:1 ratio and it will double up quite fast. Ambient temperature affects and you just have to learn how your starter works in your room temperature.

Again, this is my process and you can do it differently. However, what I do recommend is that stick with one recipe until it works out every time and you learn how the dough behaves.
My first few breads didn't work out perfectly. There's a lot of technicue in all of this. Strectch and folds in a way that the dough doesn't tear up, same with shaping. Pick a recipe and master it. Then try other things.

Baking the bread..

Many say that you must have a dutch oven or a cast iron pot with a lid to bake the bread but.. I don't. I bake my bread on a baking tray with a stainless steel dish with water in it in the bottom of the oven.

The steam is important. If you don't have moisture in the oven the surface of the bread will dry too fast. If using a dutch oven you don't have to worry about it.
Some people throw ice cubes or just water in to the bottom of the oven when they put the bread in the oven.

A 500 gram loaf takes about 40 minutes to cook through.
I crank my oven to 250C (482F) with the baking tray in it. Dish of water is bubbling on the bottom of the oven. Bread goes in and after 20 minutes I lower the temperature to 220C (428F).
When you knock on the bottom of the bread and it sounds hollow, it's done baking. It does need to cool down before cutting in to it, try to wait for at least an hour. The bread is still cooking when you take it out of the oven.
If using a dutch oven, the first part of baking you would have the lid on and then you would remove it for the rest of the baking.


About flour.

Buy organic!
Bread flour is recommended for first-time bakers. It has a higher protein percentage than all purpose flour.
Whole wheat bakes in to a bit more denser loaf with more sourness. I'd recommend starting with a blend with bread flour at first if you want to use whole wheat flour.
I usually bake with 75% bread flour and 25% einkorn or barley.



This all might sound a lot. But I promise you, the feeling of achievement and the incredible taste will be worth it. Any takers? We start our sourdough starters on Sunday!

I'll bite! But, too much going on, this next week, so it will be about Halloween, before I will feel like I can really pay attention to it. I used to keep a starter all the time, and had one I'd kept for about 6yrs. I made all kinds of things with it, from the usual pancakes & bread to cakes, muffins, pot pies, waffles, and more.

my wife says our refrigerator looks like a lab cooler Water kefir, milk kefir, yogurt, ginger bug time to start some sourdough starter.

Carla Burke wrote:I'll bite! But, too much going on, this next week, so it will be about Halloween, before I will feel like I can really pay attention to it. I used to keep a starter all the time, and had one I'd kept for about 6yrs. I made all kinds of things with it, from the usual pancakes & bread to cakes, muffins, pot pies, waffles, and more.

Yay, glad to have you in!

I really like how it is possible to make almost anything with sourdough starter and the taste is superior compared to doing it without. And talk about all those nutrients that are more available after fermentation!

Carrot cake made with the starter.. Oh my. And it was possible to eat more without feeling sick.

Robert Ray wrote:my wife says our refrigerator looks like a lab cooler Water kefir, milk kefir, yogurt, ginger bug time to start some sourdough starter.

Hehe. Indeed sounds like a perfect timing!   I have not tried making other ferments yet. Ginger bug and and kefir do interest me.. Some day!

Robert Ray wrote:my wife says our refrigerator looks like a lab cooler Water kefir, milk kefir, yogurt, ginger bug time to start some sourdough starter.

You forgot sauerkraut of several flavors, that wreaks havoc on our fridge :D

Saana: I won't join your sourdough party, but I'll watch it and see if I can throw in tips anywhere. I don't cook like you do though, measured amounts of feed for the starter, proper recipes etc isn't my style. I am a casual dumper "oh you look hungry, have some of this!" and a baker of the "let's see what do I want today? Some of this, some of that..." style.  
We aren't eating much bread type things these days, so I start itty batches of starter and use it all up for one batch of bread.

MK Neal: I have used raisins before, and other other fruit. And squash. Basically anything yeast wants to eat. It's really not fussy. And you get different flavors. I'm not a fan of plain white tasting bread, I like mine to be different and flavorful every time.

:D

Ah yes Kimchi and chinese pickles on the counter.

Pearl Sutton wrote:I don't cook like you do though, measured amounts of feed for the starter, proper recipes etc isn't my style. I am a casual dumper "oh you look hungry, have some of this!" and a baker of the "let's see what do I want today? Some of this, some of that..." style.

I like your style!

When I started baking bread with sourdough starter for the first time, I tried different recipes with not so great results as changing up the flour type and hydration changes how the dough behaves.. Then someone gave the tip of sticking to one recipe until I master it, just to learn the basic technique. After that is was waaaaay easier to mix things up and try new things. "Learn the rules and then forget them!"

I did start with plain white wheat but after it worked out I didn't go back. I don't mean that it was not tasty, it was, but adding barley or oatmeal or einkorn (my favourite) makes things so much tastier!

My idea in this was to make it as foolproof as I can, that's why I'm going with the measuring stuff rigidly -path. Once the culture is established and you know how the starter behaves it doesn't matter that much anymore.

Oh and good to have you watching the thread Pearl, offering tips is very much welcomed! And that goes for anyone, the more the merrier!

Yay, we officially have a party, not just me stirring my starter alone!

I'm looking forward to reading everyone's stories. I will just be an observer though. My oven currently resides in Valhalla. It died valliently.

Joylynn Hardesty wrote:I'm looking forward to reading everyone's stories. I will just be an observer though. My oven currently resides in Valhalla. It died valiantly.

Lots of things you can use starter for that don't require an oven
At one point in my life I went over 4 years with no oven, and bought no bread, but ate bread things daily (they were cheap food.) It's not hard to do.

Joylynn Hardesty wrote:I'm looking forward to reading everyone's stories. I will just be an observer though. My oven currently resides in Valhalla. It died valliently.

I'm currently down to an air fryer & a 2 burner camp stove, so I feel your pain!

I got tired of feeding the starter...

I discovered this ->



Then you can keep your starter without feeding.

Pearl Sutton wrote:
Lots of things you can use starter for that don't require an oven
At one point in my life I went over 4 years with no oven, and bought no bread, but ate bread things daily (they were cheap food.) It's not hard to do.

Oooh, maybe you could chime in with some ovenless bread thingys once we get the starters bubbling away?

Mart Hale wrote:
I got tired of feeding the starter...

I discovered this ->

Oh yes! I have a dehydrated starter I'm going to rehydrate! Although I didn't dry it for storage because I got tired of feeding it, I dried it because I knew I was going to kill the starter at some point.. Which happened.

The actual sourdough starter starting party thread is up and running!

https://permies.com/t/231560/Sourdough-starter-starting-party

Joylynn Hardesty wrote:I'm looking forward to reading everyone's stories. I will just be an observer though. My oven currently resides in Valhalla. It died valliently.

Joylynn, you can 'bake' everything in a lidded iron skillet that an oven can do.
Shapes are round and you have to flip but we've been doing this for years.
Makes lovely crusts and nice moist breads...cornbread too

Judith Browning wrote:

Joylynn Hardesty wrote:I'm looking forward to reading everyone's stories. I will just be an observer though. My oven currently resides in Valhalla. It died valliently.

Joylynn, you can 'bake' everything in a lidded iron skillet that an oven can do.
Shapes are round and you have to flip but we've been doing this for years.
Makes lovely crusts and nice moist breads...cornbread too

And, anything that you really don't want to have a crusty bottom (like cake) can be baked in a Dutch oven, with a heat diffuser. So the Dutch oven goes on the burner, the diffuser goes inside, then the cake pan goes on the diffuser. Obviously, you're limited to smaller (8") round cakes, but it works beautifully. I've done cakes, coffee cakes, and biscuits, this way, though it's been a long time. I've also done skillet biscuits, exactly as Judith describes, and they're crispier on top & bottom, and a good bit sturdier than typical biscuits - fun and perfect for camping.

Saana started a new thread about sourdough!
Different ways of baking bread with sourdough starter

Looking forward to starting my own starter.  Thank you!

Welcome to Permies, Kirk!

Click this link to get to the Sourdough starter starting party with day by day instructions! I'm currently on day 4 of the process, but you can join anytime.