Permaculture pick-it-yourself ideas

Hi All,

For the last few days, I've been thinking about ways to make permaculture mainstream. I think the easiest way would be for somebody to be producing food with permaculture that is capable of competing with something you would buy from a grocery store. I had considered the idea of having some type of permaculture certification but I'm not sure that would be such a great idea since most permaculture operations are small and the costs could be high to have somebody visit each farm regularly and make a certification, as is done with organic. Other issues would be that permaculture is by definition defying standards and it would be very difficult to class each operation on how 'perma' they are.

My next idea was that the idea of getting permaculture to fit in with mainstream is just wrong and it should be the other way around. Instead of certifying, we need to get people to visit permaculture farms in person and participate in some way or another. That way, we build community and friendships and people can ask the farmers and see exactly what goes into the produce. One problem I can forsee in a poly-culture type of setup is that harvesting becomes difficult. Although this problem may be a solution in a sense.

So, the next idea is to run a permaculture farm as a certain type of pick it yourself model which brings up a new model of food. One parallel I can think of is car junkyards. Junkyards allow people to come in for a small entry fee and then give a heavy discounted rate on parts. The caveat is that there is no guarantee the part you need will be at the junkyard. You have to perform labor to remove the part from a junk car. And, there is no guarantee the part will be in working condition.

With this model, there is small recycling type of ecosystem formed. There are individuals who scavenge good but used tires and sell them to used tire shops. Other people specialize in pulling special parts from a niche market (i.e. old European cars) and selling them on eBay or to mechanics. Other people look for the diamond in the rough -- i.e. a good condition engine on special cars that would normally be very expensive.

I think in a 'pick your own' permaculture farm, this type of ecosystem might be formed. I also think there is great benefit to bringing ordinary people out to the farm, especially children. So, the idea would be that the farmer would give some type of discount if people come in and pick it themselves and perhaps be able to expand operations to areas that are not so easy to harvest. Perhaps the farmer could charge a fixed cost for whatever you can shove in a certain sized bag/box or a price per pound or even a flat fee for whatever you can haul out with your hands.

Not everyone will go for this type of model, but everyone can participate. Some people might be too busy to come to pick their produce and others might be too sick/frail. Other people, such as the unemployed/underemployed/poor may be able to have their produce subsidized by going to the farm and picking up produce for their neighbors and delivering it to their neighbors' houses. Farmers could also offer further discounts/trade by having their customers contribute labor at certain planned events.

What do you guys think about this idea and do you have any other ideas to make permaculture more mainstream?


John

I believe that a key to making that model work is to have plenty of early season things to pick, and really promote it early - strive for good attendance early. As people are picking those snow peas and other early foods, they will be seeing those beautiful, healthy tomato, pepper, and other plants. They cannot help but notice the buds forming on the fruit trees.

If they like what they see, and what they have bought is truly better than 'store-bought', they will return as the season progresses.

I find your thoughts intriguing! We are a long ways off from our plan, which entails some of the same thoughts. We are planning a gardens and keep concept that would be open to the public (with small fee). We were thinking of a small stand / store for purchase of our farm goods with some sort of pick your own option. The one price fill it option is worth considering. We also think that offering guided lectures for clubs and schools would be a great way to encourage the growth of Permaculture.

I don't know; a very popular system in permaculture as a means of producing produce is food forests, and in many of those you can't exactly grow "normal" food.

@Benjamin

That's a very odd notion you have...

First, what exactly in your realm is normal? Our food forest will be full of what I consider normal food; but, then, I have lived half way around the world and back, so my normal is probably a much larger set than most people. Second, why do you believe polycultures would NOT contain normal food? Companion planting can be tailored to a wide variety of food producing plants; why do you believe only odd ones would be used? Our natural forest is full of diverse trees, shrubs, vines, herbs and bulbs that thrive together in their ecosystem. And, even amongst those, there are several food bearing.

You sound like a painter with a white canvas who only uses black paint bemoaning the world lacks color. What paint another artist has chosen to paint their gardens and keeps in by no means need be yours. Ecosystems are never a paint by numbers, each is an original.

I don't believe that your average non gardener, would be able to harvest amongst mixed plantings, without doing harm to the items not being harvested that day. I think you would find that other crops are trampled, uprooted or harvested and then left behind. A select few might be good at it. These people could be employed to harvest for a farm stand, deliveries or whatever means of distribution.

I have visited many monoculture pick your own farms. Pick your own operations experience large losses in produce. Some from trampling or dropping, some that is eaten in the field, and some because pickers leave many perfectly good berries, peas etc behind. It is often uneconomic to send paid workers to glean and the remainder goes to waste. They accept these losses because they are able to save on labor and because it's part of their marketing scheme. They're selling a recreational farm experience. The big grower is thus able to cut out the middle man and retail much of the crop.

They often employ paid harvesters, who fill containers for roadside sales. Pick your own customers often opt to buy harvested items, after they get tired or they realize just how slow they are in comparison to the professional pickers. My friend, Larry was a migrant worker from Trinidad. Part of his job was to demonstrate his lightning speed to the customers and to talk them into the idea of buying flats of harvested fruit. The cost to the farm, of having Larry's crew harvest was nothing compared to the cost of all that wasted fruit. It was a bait and switch operation, where the customers were free to choose the switch part. Larry was a sharp guy. He now owns a motel on a nice beach in Tobago.

Certain crops, such as monoculture strawberries, require a huge labor input over a short harvest window. Pick your own makes sense for this low grade food. I won't grow any berry that sells for less than triple the price of this trash. This means that a pound of my berries that is eaten, squashed or otherwise wasted, represents three times as much financial loss. The higher the value of something, the more important it is for that product to be handled by someone qualified. A dollar worth of paid labor would be able to harvest three times as much value, provided that both crops are equally difficult to harvest.

The idea of having a blanket price per pound for mixed bags of produce, seems like something that would cause people to load up on baby salad greens, truffles and other expensive stuff. You're not going to see many turnips and potatoes in bags that are charged out by the pound. Bag sales are a great way for thrift stores to clear shelf space. When the sale ends, the whole place is a damn mess. I don't anticipate ever having a "fire sale" attitude toward my produce. I want to get top dollar for it.
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For any sort of customer harvesting to be effective, they would need to be put through a training process. Even then, there would be many who are too clumsy, careless or clueless to be trusted around high value crops. I've found this to be true for hired help in several different businesses. I can't see why it should be any different with customers who arrive with varying degrees of competence and different attitudes toward work.

Take a look at http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com he gives 2 to 4 hr group tours for a cost of $20 to $25. Maybe this could be part of a model that would work?

John, I gather that you idea is based on the premise that farmers welcome strangers on their farms. Around my area I know of only one vegetable farm owner that does. There are a number of coffee farms that offer tours but they don't allow picking. I agree that there are farmers who earn income by having the public there, but the farmers I know don't want the headaches. I use to let the public come to my farm but I've stopped that. No more. Lots of problems and hassles. In my opinion, it's not worth the damage and the risks.

In my experience, unskilled people ruin more of the crop than they successfully pick. They step on plants, pick stuff too young then discard it, pull up plants. I lost a whole crop of jicama and a whole patch of sweet potato when a person pulled every plant too soon.

I don't expect to see permaculture become mainstream among big commercial producers. Just my opinion. But will the buying public embrace it? Will they want to come to the oermaculture farm? I guess if you can link it to "organic", then they will come. They will come in hopes of getting cheap food. They will come to use the event as a family outing, a mini-vacation, something to entertain the kids. I don't think they will care all that much about the actual farming process except to give it a brief thought....then get back to their suburban/urban lifestyle.

So how does one go about changing the opinion of farmers, like me, and the non-farm public? I don't know. I think it will be a tough job.

...Su Ba
www.kaufarmer.blogspot.com

Thinking of a Segway tour that earned me the right to "free range" tour. Maybe as people make multiple visits they earn a free range license on the farm. Also you could give incentives for experienced docents to lead tours.

Bill, good idea. Another idea sent to me was to host an open house day and restrict where people can go using barriers and pathways. Your suggestion of using docents is great. Perhaps I will upgrade my farm liability insurance and start offering open-farm days. Since they aren't technically tours, it might be legal here. I truly enjoy educating people, but I find that most non-farmy people haven't a clue about the dangers on a farm nor how not to damage everything they approach. My farm is small and homey, but there is still dangers,

...Su Ba
www.kaufarmer.blogspot.com

Wait for oil prices to go up, be ready with the solutions.

Strawberries are probably the worst crop for U-pick operations.
People will trample 6 plants to get to 1 big juicy fruit.

As a teenager, I used to go to the strawberry fields to pick my own: $1 per bucket.
The owner said that it only paid to hire labor for 1-2 days of picking, then let the public have at it for whatever was left over after the big harvest. When I mentioned that everybody was trampling the plants, he said "Don't matter. We're replanting everything new next month."

I asked "So it wouldn't matter if I just put the whole plants in my bucket?"
He replied "Go ahead - same price - $1 per bucket."

Most commercial growers replace one half of their field every year (to maximize yields). With a permies setup we want a continuous patch, so people trampling our plants would matter to us.

Pumpkins are one of the best U-pick crops. Momma takes 3 kids to the supermarket just before Halloween, and buys 1 pumpkin. If she takes the same 3 kids to a U-pick, she usually ends up buying 3 pumpkins. LOL

This is a good article on farm income and other topics. She mentions a Harvest a Meal program. Maybe this combined with a chef preparing a local meal could be a good draw (advertise on Groupon)?

http://www.theday.com/article/20130902/NWS01/309029967/1017

I sense the conversation has shifted from making permaculture mainstream to making a living off of permaculture. without undermining your process of envisioning the model you're working on, I think one of the surest ways to introduce the permaculture paradigm to others is to make it more visible in front yards, schools, churches, private enterprises, and so on. and having a little sign saying something to the effect of "this is a permaculture garden. we are growing long-term food security by establishing a dynamic perennial system." passers-by intrigued by the abundance of food, pollinators, levels, layers, and beauty can then google permaculture to find out what the hell is going on.

for all its promises of restoration, beauty, and abundance, I suspect most permaculture operations are taking place in areas quite off the beaten path, where the primary viewers are those who are already familiar. permaculture needs to go public

Developing a thriving community of people growing most of their own food all the time as the norm is a cherished dream of mine personally. I wish it was as popular as facebook, as natural as washing cars in the driveway, to have the place you pay so much for keep money in the door. Anyway, enough preaching to the choir.

I was brainstorming a garden networking app that would be sort of like facebook meets craiglist meets meetup meets google maps for people with sustainability-oriented projects in a community to get together online. I know that sounds like permies.com, do they have an app? Maybe I'm talking to the wrong crowd about app development but that's part of my point, the line between the organic and the techno needs to come down big time in order for "normal people" to access the funky freshness of permaculture.

@ Brenda

I too, utilize the same list of resources for Permaculture and related topics. I am not aware of anything like you mentioned...much to my frustration! If you create it or find it, please send me a PM as I would be interested in participating. Likewise to anyone else with this information.

Sorry I missed this thread earlier.
Pick Your Own Vegetables is entirely practical and possible. I have done it. I've talked about this in other threads, preach about it here and there, and hope to repeat the plan here if I can somehow find the time.

Everyone told me 'you can't sell produce out in the country, everyone has a garden in the country.' This is false. The people out in the country lead their lives much the same as city folks, albeit with a longer commute time. They take the kids to soccer practice, run errands, go shopping then get home to cook dinner and watch TV. Weekends are spent mowing the lawn and catching up on the laundry. Gardens are much less common than I anticipated, and what gardens are out there are small and don't have all that much growing. There is ample opportunity to market produce. Most of my customers came from a couple of miles away, some from around the corner. If they are strangers the first time they come, they will be my best friend the next time. They will come for the convenience when it's 20 miles to the supermarket. Give the people what they want: fresh, ripe, tasty, clean produce in good quantity and quality.

The plan is simple enough: plant the crops, let the people pick what they want, charge them for it. There are some issues to deal with, as with any enterprise, but nothing insurmountable.

Permaculture
Call it that if you like. For a wider appeal to the public's understanding, you might call it All-Natural or Chem-Free. You can use the term Permaculture when you talk to them. Regardless of how you identify your growing methods, you can use many cultural practices involved in permaculture design. You also may want to do some tweaking for the sake of making the picking area customer friendly.

Safety
The paths and walkways need to be easy to walk on and clear of hazards. Chop and Drop may want to be replaced with woodchips and mulch. People falling down is a liability concern. Irrigation lines crossing a pathway need to be underground.

Curb Appeal
People like neat and tidy. Farms can be cluttered with so much going on. If you want to bring people in, you've got to keep the place in order.
Gotta have parking for a few cars in a convenient place. Walking a quarter mile won't work. Something growing 10 feet from their bumper will draw them in. They'll walk a mile once they are in the field. To keep the walking distance down, intensive planting with wide rows and narrow paths is the way to go. It won't be a traffic jam in there.
Weeds need to be kept in check. Ample mulch handles the weeds, offers a neat appearance, and serves your needs as well.

Picker Friendly
Making it easy for people to pick will help. Reaching through brambles to get to a coplanted carrot is not the way to go. Pole beans do better. You have to bend over for pole beans. Root crops are less favored-it's dirty and much more work. I've sold beets, turnip and radishes just fine. Raised beds work very well, but should be reachable from the pathways. 3-4 feet is plenty wide. 50 feet long is a fair distance, lets them readily move to the next row, solves traffic problems should you have a few pickers at the same time. 50 feet is also the standard length of drip irrigation tubing. Pathways should be smooth, mostly solid, and a couple feet wide. Having an entire bed in just one species may not be the best plan. Split up the beds into 2-4 or more crops. Folks can grab some broccoli, then turn around to grab a couple of cukes. Polyculture if your friend.
Offer clean buckets for carrying their booty. Smaller buckets or flats may be in order for berries. Gotta have a handle.

Selection
Again, polyculture is the keyword. A few kinds of lettuce, cukes, zukes, squashes, melons, spinach, rutabaga, eggplant, tomato, pepper, radish, kale, arugula, chard, beets, peas, beans, okra...20 or more species ready to go at any given time would go a long way to supplying the needs of the customer. Also, raise cultivars people will identify. Purple pole beans don't work. People know exactly what a green bean is. A little bit of variety here is ok, but don't get carried away or you'll be the only one having it for dinner. every. single. night.

Trampling
Most people will respect the beds and use the pathway to walk around to the other side of the bed. A length of bright sash cord delineating the bed will help, but it must be low enough to reach over. A foot high is about right, but it has to be visible. If people are trampling, its not as bad as you think. That mulch spread out the weight, kids don't weigh much, and Alan Savory has shown it to be effective at remediation of abused soils. IF people do jump the rope to march through a bed, they tend to watch their step, choosing spots with nothing growing. You can always add some flat stepping stones. If you have plants that are not yet ready beside harvestable plants, those not yet ready plants are still growing and can take a degree of abuse.

Eating
The kids will get into the berries. Permaculture teaches us to use nature to our advantage. Berries are a trap crop for children, who bring their parents, who bring their wallets.
How much is the kid going to eat?
There are some fruits, garden huckleberries for example, that should not be eaten unless ripe. Plant a big red post or other CLEAR warning in the ground or simply select a different crop.
Put up a sign near the cashout station "Wash your produce before eating." Have a single entry point near the parking area. Having the Wash Sign visible when folks come into the field will help deter consumption.
People like clean food.

Training
Don't underestimate people. There are a great many with a good head on their shoulders. Put a tomato plant in front of them, even if they don't know how to pick one, they will be able to figure it out real quick. It's not rocket science. They want the beans whole, the stem on the apples and peppers. They'll take the entire head of lettuce and cabbage. They'll need clippers for the cauliflower. If something gets ruined by bad harvest practices, it will be tossed or dropped and decay back into the soil. Often people will ask how to pick something with which they have less experience. As they learn to harvest something right, they will employ that knowledge when they encounter a similar plant.
If its not ready to pick, hang a red flag. If it's ready, hang a green flag.

Price
In '09 I charged $1.50 per pound for everything. They took onions at that price. Onions!
When the picker is done, they will bring their bucket to the weigh station. Separating tomatoes at $3/# from zukes at $1.50/# is not a problem. They will be in the same area in the bucket.
I had an older couple come by several times. They offered more if I did the picking. I didn't have the heart to charge them extra.
There will be folks who don't want to go into the field because of mud, bugs, new shoes, and sore feet. A farm stand is an option, as is I-Pick for a higher price.
Will they harvest garlic at that price? You betcha! But since it takes a week to fall over, be picked and cured, put the garlic way out back away from the U-Pick, harvest it yourself, hang it at the stand in braids for a premium price. You don't need to give the stuff away.

They come, grab a bucket, ask where something is and head for it. Some will pick up that nights dinner, some for a few nights. In a half hour, they are gone. If you treat them right, help them find what they need, weigh and charge accurately and fairly, they'll come back. At $1.50/pound, most customer spent $20-25, taking around 15 pounds-the best part of a 5 gallon bucket.

Pick Your Own can work in a food forest. It mighe be worth the time to set up for Pick Your Own vegetables first in order to observe so you can adjust the forest to make it work better with humans.

Brendan McNamara wrote: I was brainstorming a garden networking app that would be sort of like facebook meets craiglist meets meetup meets google maps for people with sustainability-oriented projects in a community to get together online. I know that sounds like permies.com, do they have an app? Maybe I'm talking to the wrong crowd about app development but that's part of my point, the line between the organic and the techno needs to come down big time in order for "normal people" to access the funky freshness of permaculture.

Sounds a lot like like http://permacultureglobal.com/

I like the ideas talked about here, so I also want to add some more big picture thoughts to the discussion. One of the main tenets of permaculture is redesigning our environment and behavior toward a system of less energy and seperation. My goals in my permaculture design are to create a more integrated and holistic system of existence.

That being said, I feel that the agri-design side of permaculture is best suited for close knit communities and family units, allowing these units to be more self sustaining, creating less of a need for commuting and grocery shopping. It is about creating localized subsets of individuals who are living in community together and providing for each others' needs, many people sharing excess yields from their personal permaculture gardens, sharing resources, skills, time, etc. Creating a system where people shop through a permaculture garden is an interesting idea, and may be a satisfying experience and learning tool for customers, but I don't see it as the best utilization of permaculture design.

Su Ba wrote:John, I gather that you idea is based on the premise that farmers welcome strangers on their farms. Around my area I know of only one vegetable farm owner that does. There are a number of coffee farms that offer tours but they don't allow picking. I agree that there are farmers who earn income by having the public there, but the farmers I know don't want the headaches. I use to let the public come to my farm but I've stopped that. No more. Lots of problems and hassles. In my opinion, it's not worth the damage and the risks.

In my experience, unskilled people ruin more of the crop than they successfully pick. They step on plants, pick stuff too young then discard it, pull up plants. I lost a whole crop of jicama and a whole patch of sweet potato when a person pulled every plant too soon.

I don't expect to see permaculture become mainstream among big commercial producers. Just my opinion. But will the buying public embrace it? Will they want to come to the oermaculture farm? I guess if you can link it to "organic", then they will come. They will come in hopes of getting cheap food. They will come to use the event as a family outing, a mini-vacation, something to entertain the kids. I don't think they will care all that much about the actual farming process except to give it a brief thought....then get back to their suburban/urban lifestyle.

So how does one go about changing the opinion of farmers, like me, and the non-farm public? I don't know. I think it will be a tough job.

...Su Ba
www.kaufarmer.blogspot.com

I realize I'm resurrecting this. My concept has always been a U-pick and, like Miracle Farm, I plan to make it simple. Everything in a particular area will ripen at the exact same time. That would help eliminate people picking things before they are ready.

There is a U-pick we are going to check out in CO that does it by appointment only. There website isn't specific but I have gleaned that you get a guide. This is a bit more costly for the farm but still a viable plan as far as I can see.

Also, I guess I'm ok with losing a bit if it means I change 1 mind about agriculture. Since I also plan on running pigs and other livestock through to clean up not much should actually be wasted, even if they do pick things they shouldn't.

So I see these concerns, they are valid. However, I think they can be mitigated, can't they?

Su Ba wrote:John, I gather that you idea is based on the premise that farmers welcome strangers on their farms. Around my area I know of only one vegetable farm owner that does. There are a number of coffee farms that offer tours but they don't allow picking.

Sonoma County nor cal has an awesome farm trails map produced annually that tours people through all the local farms from dairy to veggies & everything else a farm offers there - many are organic farms if not all by now.

>> farm trails map - it has evolved since I last saw it