Is anyone really doing permaculture?

Threads like these are the reason I visit Permies. Fantastic.

I wish I would have learned how to plant a tree, 6 yrs. ago. That was the very 1st thing I did on my project. My permaculture project like many others involves so many different areas of expertise. Mixing all the different plants, animals, fish and structures can be more than challenging. One advantage the monoculture farmer has, perfecting one thing. I could appreciate some outlined info. on the varied topics. Mainly think it would be Very helpful to new projects. The crops are starting to get heavier and its more than we can eat. Now the need for marketing comes in. Trying several value added products. My 1st farmers market was fairly discouraging, (just because you have some great food doesn't mean people will buy it). Luckily I have pigs which are very good customers, the less I sell the happier they are. Yes this permaculture does work. Remember we are just starting these systems. If we work smart enough and share information there will be some faster rewards. The real reward could be for future generations as in this 300 yr. food forest in Vietnam. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZgzwoQ-ao&feature=share& list=PLE52F3095CA80E5D1 or the 2000 year food forest in Morocco.

What I see are lots of dreamers subsidizing a fantasy with income made some other way. We are trying to change the world for the better, and I can't think of anything more important than that, but we still have to eke out a living in the meantime.

Perhaps my problem is letting the naysayers get to me.

I, too, am sorting out the mind set of the different systems. What you are use to is the Master/slave system wherein you carry out one function and that supplies you with the necessary credit to purchase the product of other people's functions. Permaculture requires that one take on 'individual responsibility' and perform many functions. That is a wide psychological swing that one has to work hard to wrap your mind around. It is a fearful thing. Those working in the information end of permaculture are having to work blind while trying to discover what works. In any new or reclaimed system it takes a massive amount of trial and error. Thankfully there are people who are trying and failing and tellingthe world how they failed. The mega farm didn't spring up over night. The giant corporate farms took a century to evolve to the point where they became the norm. In the thirty years since, they have successfully murdered millions of acres of land that will grow nothing.Permaculture Is a means to repair that land and also to set people free from the Master/slave system but it will be hard. You are standing in the midst of pioneers and it seems they are going nowhere, but each failure leads to success. It is harder to grow your own food that it is to go to the supermarket, until the supermarket closes or the supply system breaks down. It's like a lake in a drought. As the water level drops, the fish die off. Our land space is diminishing we can either rejuvenate the murdered land or be prepared for Soylent Green because we can't keep doing the same thing and expect it to fix itself. The point is that each person is going to have to take responsibility for themselves and their own and stop accepting the concept of their own expandability. That is what all of these DVD's and books are about. It isn't up to "them" to save the world. It is up to "you".

Tyler Ludens wrote:I think being more familiar with the existing examples and information might help. Like I said earlier, there's 30+ years of published material on permaculture to study if one wants to, that's a lot when you consider all the disciplines which fall under the heading "permaculture"; agroforestry, organic gardening, integrated pest management, managed rotational grazing, timber management, wildlife management, appropriate technology, passive solar design, rainwater management, Keyline design etc etc. This thread seems to view permaculture as merely an alternative agricultural model. Permaculture is a design system for integrating humans harmoniously in the landscape with productive ecosystems which have the diversity, stability and resilience of natural ecosystems, at least according to the guy who invented it. So there's a lot more going on than just growing food, far more going on than just growing calories. If one is trying to learn more about productive food-growing systems, there's a lot of detailed information available from the various sub-disciplines which fall under the heading "permaculture." For instance one can get 30+ years of research on organic farming from the Rodale Institute, 30+ years of research on Biointensive gardening from Ecology Action, 30+ years of research on perennial grain systems from the Land Institute, etc etc. It would be great if there were a single clearing-house for information just labeled "permaculture" but there isn't yet that I know of. There are many many libraries of information, some of which have been compiled on the internet such as the Soil and Health Library and various other archives. For scientific study papers one might have to subscribe to journals of the various sub-disciplines (example Australian Agroforestry magazine) though there are several journal archives online. A few different sets of people are working on various permaculture information databases but I don't think anything is online yet.

With all due respect, I don't think that it's fair or even reasonable to say that Jeavons, Rodale, the Land Institute are sub-sets of permaculture. I know that you used "permaculture" but even a loose umbrella view doesn't work for me. Nor do I think that Natural Farming (Fukuoka, Hazelip, Jamie Nicol) is a sub-set. I don't think that Steve Solomon, Carol Deppe, Dave Duhon & Cindy Gebhard are subsets either. They are separate streams that often overlap and there are common themes - work with nature, don't use chemicals, save your seed, feed the soil, etc. And now I'm really going to put my foot in it: I don't think that permaculture as it currently exists is sufficient by itself. I think that its examples are limited by the geographic and climactic experience of the three wise men. If I tried to incorporate a temperate Crawford forest garden never mind a sub-tropical Lawton forest garden as a key part of my plan where I live - 125 km northeast of Toronto, Canada which is USDA Zone 4a, I'd starve to death really quickly. The truth of the matter is that I'd better be growing root vegetables, winter squashes which are root cellared and canned to take me through the season where the land is covered in snow. And I'd better be growing peas & beans including soybeans which I can dry. And I'd better be growing perennial rye, wheat and buckwheat because grain stores well. Cold frames are a nice idea for extending the end of the season until you have to go out in -20C weather with a wind that makes it feel like -30C. I quickly figured out that sprouting peas was a much better idea since they taste like fresh peas and will put out more growth when you pinch out the tops to eat. And I'd better be coppicing firewood or I'm going to freeze to death faster than I starve to death. I think that permaculture needs to grow beyond what it is. If you look at the more visible permaculture pockets around the world - they are temperate or tropical. Chickens may scratch for a living elsewhere but I'd better be growing chicken feed to take them through the winter. So chickens are not part of my plan although they or rabbits or something with a tiny tummy may have to be because of the vegan B-12 problem. Where you live changes the picture completely - The temperature in The Channon has never dropped below +2.8C - http://weather.mla.com.au/climate-history/nsw/the-channon - and influences the systems that you design. There are folks here giving permaculture courses and folks who are taking the courses but those who have taken the courses seem to be struggling with execution. I think that permaculture needs to evolve into an all climate design system. As it exists right now, it contains what is needed for that to happen - observe your surroundings and design accordingly. Perhaps Geoff should come to Quebec City for Carnival at the beginning of February. That might lead him to a new level of creative thinking. <grin>

Regards,
Mike

I think one of the great things about the word permaculture is that it is a broad, inclusive umbrella. Mollison says that there is nothing new in permaculture.

At the same time, there are many schools of thought in permaculture. Different "artisans" if you will. I can see many people expressing their vision of permaculture and including Fukuoka's techniques as part of their design. There is still a difference between Fukuoka's "Natural Farming" or "Mu", and permaculture. Fukuoka himself said that permaculture seemed to have more earthworks than he was comfortable with (and Larry Korn points out that that could be because the earthworks at Fukuoka's farm were completed hundreds of years ago).

As for cold climate permaculture: look to Sepp Holzer.

Am delighted to have stumbled into this discussion and really enjoyed the comments/observations Ken Peavey shared in this forum. One of the enormous hurdles that saddles permaculture is the loss of tried and true land knowledge. When I was a boy, we had a number of neighbors who came out to Montana in covered wagons. These knowledgeable elders could also grow the best fruit, vegetables, poultry and beef and they did so totally self contained by implementing information that had passed down, word of mouth, trial and error, through countless organic generations. They practiced permaculture without knowing they practiced permaculture and kept the seeds and offspring that worked on "their place." But as Ken pointed out, 50 years ago the chemical farmer came into being while at the same time hundreds of years of knowledge was lost as pioneers passed away. Now, modern hands-on agriculturists are beginning to reach the land first person again and because of knowledge extinction must "reinvent the wheel." What this new surge will need is hands on experience and a pioneer mentality. The internet can be a guide but not a work buddy. Nothing is guaranteed. And perhaps most important, what works in one place may not work in another even if there is only a short distance separating the efforts so what a permie hopeful must do is go out and get dirty.

I think permaculture is a design system which draws upon many disciplines and techniques, including appropriate techniques for growing annual crops. It isn't just food forests. Sepp Holzer grows lots of potatoes and other root crops, Bill Mollison grew potatoes, Geoff Lawton has small fields of annual crops at his permaculture farm Zaytuna. etc etc

To me it seems often when there's a criticism of permaculture lacking something, there's a permaculture example which exhibits the supposed missing element.

There are several northern projects listed on the permaculture global network: http://permacultureglobal.com/projects

Well, when I first came across the term, permaculture, my first thought persists: "permanent soil that can grow healthy food for all manner of life".

Of course, high on the list would be perennial plants that require little care!

Yes, permaculture draws on many disciplines and techniques---all of them new. What could be learned by taking some time and traveling to the local assisted living center and asking if there were any residents who had lived their lives in that locale, had gardened and grown and were willing to share what they knew?

New? Only if you consider techniques which are thousands of years old to be "new." Bill Mollison himself is old enough to be in an assisted living center, but he is still teaching.

Here's an example of a "new" old technique in my locale:

"In soil conservation, too, the Germans appear to have been leaders, for quite early some of them in Gillespie County had built stone retaining walls to retard erosion, and still today small mounds of earth placed across sloping dirt roads to prevent erosion in the ruts are so closely identified with the German population of the Hill Country as to be called 'dutchmen's dumps.'" German Seed in Texas Soil by Terry G. Jordan, 1966

As far as I can tell, the tradition of the Dutchmen's Dump has mostly died out, as erosion has only increased since that book was written. If I reinstate the use of stone retaining walls and mounds of earth to prevent erosion, but I call them "berms" and refer to Brad Lancaster's books for ideas on how to build them, am I using a new technique, or an old one? I feel a great spiritual kinship with the early German settlers in this region (they were a wacky bunch of folks), but their farming practices have not survived in my county, as far as I can tell. The oldest of the old guys who still have German accents are dying out. One of our old neighbors of German settler heritage who farmed professionally until his death in his mid-80s appeared to use typical modern tractor farming methods indistinguishable from those of any other farmer.

most everything new has threads into the past...check out Sir Albert Howard quotes...if not whole books. Known as the father of organic farming, writting in the early nineteen hundreds, you might think it was any of the current permaculture folks talking....and then there's Wendell Berry, Wes Jackson, Gary Snyder and so many more...so many voices..we are all in good company.

Tyler Ludens wrote:Here's an example of a "new" old technique in my locale:

"In soil conservation, too, the Germans appear to have been leaders, for quite early some of them in Gillespie County had built stone retaining walls to retard erosion, and still today small mounds of earth placed across sloping dirt roads to prevent erosion in the ruts are so closely identified with the German population of the Hill Country as to be called 'dutchmen's dumps.'" German Seed in Texas Soil by Terry G. Jordan, 1966

As far as I can tell, the tradition of the Dutchmen's Dump has mostly died out, as erosion has only increased since that book was written. If I reinstate the use of stone retaining walls and mounds of earth to prevent erosion, but I call them "berms" and refer to Brad Lancaster's books for ideas on how to build them, am I using a new technique, or an old one? I feel a great spiritual kinship with the early German settlers in this region (they were a wacky bunch of folks), but their farming practices have not survived in my county, as far as I can tell. The oldest of the old guys who still have German accents are dying out. One of our old neighbors of German settler heritage who farmed professionally until his death in his mid-80s appeared to use typical modern tractor farming methods indistinguishable from those of any other farmer.

This reminds me of what Mexican farmers do on the Rio San Miguel on the mainland side of the Sea of Cortez - they build fences of wattle on the river bank to catch silt as the waters inundate each year, and after several seasons of accumulating soil in this way, they build a new fence a bit closer to the bank and repeat the process. On one hand it's fertile, but on the other hand, they also accumulate any pollutants that may be present in the flow.

Other folks using techniques similar to that to repair eroded waterways, the structures being placed in the waterway instead of beside it: http://permaculturenews.org/2011/07/14/let-the-water-do-the-work-induced-meandering-an-evolving-method-for-restoring-incised-channels/

Some years ago, I listened to Joel Salatin speak for several days. On the bus tour, the economist sitting beside me observed that Salatin's approach was a human resource economic model. His son loved rabbits, so he developed new rabbit systems and a more efficient rabbit breed. His daughter loved flowers and art, so she made and marketed flower art.

There is no formula. Everyone has different abilities and interests. Each area has it's own environment and markets.

Begin with what you love....

Maura

I'm doing it. I have a day job, of course. My observation in context with my micro food forest I've been gradually working on for a handful of years(a generous description) is that every year things get better.

I'll do a lot of work when I'm trying to reclaim a small patch of ground from the Bermuda grass, but in general I try to focus on a fire and forget type of system that regenerates and spreads. When I first started, I got a meager nibble here and there for my efforts. I didn't have enough critical mass to pay the nature tax. You need to have enough food for the birds and squirrels to gorge themselves before you are left with a bounty.

It's starting to work and it certainly is getting better from year to year.

I set aside a bit of time each day and a bit of money each paycheck to add to the system in a way that adds to my output. I'm finding myself becoming self sufficient with certain things. Because I actively let my carrots go to seed, I now have an unlimited supply of carrots. I use them as a cover crop. When my volunteer mulberries are kicking, I have enough to eat breakfast for a few weeks. I've been eating one or two persimmons every day for what seems to be about a month. My fig trees paid for themselves if you consider the price of a pint of figs in the store. I'll probably never buy another fig... I have enough perennial and weedy greens out there that I can forage a salad. I have enough edible flowers that I give them to chefs. I'm constantly finding strawberries, not tons, but more than ever. I throw handfuls of seeds around because I can. If you used seed packets as the measure, I clearly have over $1000 of good seed that I created myself. Muscadines have started producing. Kiwis are about to pop. I'm self sufficient with onions... etc.

What I try to do is focus on something that I want to produce and then keep adding to that loop until I'm done. For instance, I add another oyster log every week. I've had good experiences growing mushrooms. I don't like annuals unless they are weedy. When I buy food I like to buy stuff I can also plant. Cut the bottoms off the scallions and plant then, use the top. Dig that Cthulu potato in the ground. Save seeds from all store bought squash, tomatoes, etc. I even save my pits and throw them around in the wilder areas that aren't on my property. If I plant flowers for my girl, I have a strong preference for flowers that could also be considered vegetables (day lilies...). Point is, if you add a self-seeding annual or perennial plant to your system, you have just increased your potential yield. Just keep doing it.

Reminds me of a time when I took the seeds from a squash we cooked up at a friend's BBQ. As a practical joke I planted one seed every square foot in his backyard. He had enough squash to fill up a truck and he certainly didn't take care of them...

I'm expanding my little fertility zones. I don't till, and I don't fertilize. Fertilizing is silly, get a worm box. I have a hard time keeping up with them. Ever price commercially available worm poop? It's silly expensive. If you don't want to water, create more shade in your system. Trees. My rule is that any tree gets to grow until the time that it gets in my way. Then it's firewood or a building material. I used to buy dirt, I don't think it's necessary anymore. I seed kill my marginal soil by soaking it in water for an extended period of time then I add a little worm poop and sticks. It's all good.

Back to your point. Use the typical orchard as the yardstick. Are orchards profitable? They wouldn't exist if they weren't. A food forest is an orchard with a greater diversity of DNA.

If you get one fruit tree twig that's 5 to 10 dollars (or free if you have buddies), put it in the ground, let it go for 5 years, you'll get a significant yield on that one tree that starts small but ends up being 100 pounds plus per tree. Every tree you put in the ground makes your whole system better. It all adds up. Take the same space, run vines up the tree that bear food, plant stuff under the tree that bears food. Pack it in good. Rinse and repeat. I don't take care of my trees, they do fine. I don't water them (except in the beginning), I don't spray them, or fertilize them. I do however make sure there are nitrogen fixers nearby and that I inoculate the soil with various type of beneficial fungus to make sure that nutrients shuttle. I do mulch with coarse wood and my grasses that I don't cut very often.

Could I quit my job right now and pay my mortgage with my backyard permaculture plot? Probably not. If I tried growing annual crops in my areas that have marginal soil without watering would they do well? Probably not. Think three dimensionally and start with tough plants that yield well and do well in your climate.

I'm on a journey to completely convert my small property into 90% food production while I'm saving up for my five acre plot. At the rate I'm going that will take about four years.

I'm not in a hurry. I'm not obsessed with the idea of profit, but I am fascinated by it.

Don't get discouraged by the inertia. It takes a lot of energy to get a system moving. Work on chunks in bite sized pieces. Keep chipping away at it. There's plenty of stuff out there that's easy to grow. Start learning about foraging. You'll find that a lot of the stuff out there that naturally occurs you might otherwise spend work on removing is actually quite useful, pretty, and often tasty. Have you ever cooked up a mess of lamb's quarters? For goodness sake, don't get upset when plants die or don't do well. We're not trying to rule nature. We're trying to mimic it and nudge it in certain directions.

I respect your question and feel like a lot of folks don't really understand what you are asking for. You might try lurking in the farm income section.

I appreciate your response, Calvin. Thank you.

Can I ask, how big is your current plot?

I have what I believe to be close to a quarter of an acre in the middle of a city in zone 7. It's a rough spot, I have challenges with sun and fluctuating temperatures that are typical of the South. So, I certainly know what it's like to get off to a slow start.

Here's one of my videos of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn-B-nmNWzM&feature=plcp

Mostly me walking around talking about stuff and harassing bugs. It's mostly close ups, but there are a few pictures that pan back. One note, I may have said something inaccurate about the mimosa tree, but that's a small detail.

My goal for this land is to learn my climate before I jump into a larger venture. It's what I do to de-stress from my corporate-ish existence. It's fun. I haven't decided to start watering yet because I'm trying to learn what I can grow easily without creating work for myself or relying on the grid for water. I'm starting to identify some plants that have interest either as something that would support selling cut flowers (girls are weird), or some other type of product that I could get away with without being part of the USDA over-regulation of our freedoms. Sharpened rosemary sticks for shish kebab? I'm also supplementing my food needs and building strong bonds with my neighbors when I share with them. Every cab driver in town knows me because I supplement their tips with squash when I'm drunk out of my mind.

Permaculture can take on almost religious importance in the minds of it's followers. I think a bit of skepticism is healthy. We're certainly can't say "permaculture" out loud, wave a magic wand and then reap the benefits, unless we're already expert foragers spending all of our time observing and harvesting, just skipping the planting part.... The following behavior of people makes me a little nervous sometimes, but it is a positive energy in this case. I do completely agree with the ideal of maximizing connections. The interconnections work with people as well and are as important as the interconnections in nature. When I share things with random people passing by, such as a grape or a weird, white strawberry I break the ice with them and then typically get access to all of their unwanted organic material or something else they have to share. On the point of making a profit, I've had chefs, grocery stores, and individuals approaching me to buy stuff, especially mushrooms, after I teach them about some weird edible they'd never heard about. I really don't think it's a stretch to find a market for things. Folks really are shifting away from large chemical Ag, and they're willing to pay a little extra. I wouldn't recommend quitting your day job yet. Ease into it.

I think I get your thoughts though. You're probably looking for plans that are based on space needs and succession plans that could support income. Sort of a step by step guide on how to build a permaculture system that supports income?

IE: Grow mullein and sweet sorghum to reclaim land, sell mullein flowers for ear infections and cut up the sorghum into one foot long chunks for kids to nibble on in farmers market at 1 dollar a pop...., pot up extra blackberry plants for $7 bucks each, etc... I think about it too. My guess is folks that stumble on easy to grow products that fetch a good price consider that sort of thing a trade secret. I'd be interested in a step by step guide with a focus on profit as well.

Have you ever looked up videos of Skeeter Pilarsky talking about his early succession permaculture farms? He might be an interesting resource, because he doesn't hold back. He seems to start small systems with the intent of selling the end product of the developed land later on down the road. I don't know this for a fact, but there are a lot of video records of different agro forestry systems that he got off the ground some young, some old that are now owned by other folks. He's either selling his plots for profit or he's managing land on behalf of owners.. Doesn't matter. In a lot of ways he does talk about what you need to do in order to get started. He does mention things that are profitable, however, he does not go into great detail. This isn't surprising. He has more of a dive right into it vibe. Probably he grows everything, finds a market for things, and then builds on whatever works. Point is, this neat dude knows a lot of stuff and is willing to share knowledge on how to get systems started. He's well represented on youtube.

My advice is to hang out in farmer's markets and watch the people. One thing I learned that doesn't make any sense to me is that the ladies will willingly spend close to 10 bucks for a bunch of cut flowers, but aren't willing or interested in buying the same plant in a pot for less money. It's completely insane, and something I'm willing to take advantage of. That's why I planted the contorted jujube. I'll eat the fruit, but I'll betcha I could sell a bunch of the wiggly sticks to someone that puts arrangements together. My thoughts are that if we plan on making a living out of this lifestyle, that it's more important to find a bunch of profitable things than it is to find one profitable thing. If I were to dive right into selling food, I would start with blackberries, raspberries and their ilk. They're easy to manage and spread ike gangbusters. If you want to take that traditional system and permaculturize it, release a few cats into the system to scare off the birds and grow something else in the understory in and amongst the canes that are shading the mushroom logs. Hoorah!

I'm also quite surprised at how much information you can get from farmers at markets by chatting them up. They'll tell you anything. I wouldn't market yourself as a potential competitor, however....

Anyway, I rant, so I'll stop. Heh.
Good luck!

Thanks again Calvin,

I thought I'd share a few ideas and experiences of my own.

First, on the topic of getting around food regulations, it is my understanding that, as a general term of reference, foods that are unaltered are permissible to be sold without inspection. For example, most any fruit can be sold in whole form without bureaucratic oversight, but if you slice the fruit, dry it, and market it as value-added trail mix, now you've opened a can of worms. You can sell the tomatoes, but not the salsa. You can sell a live animal, but not their meat. At least, not without a lot of pricey rigamerole.

On the topic of cash crops, I have to give credit to a permie called Green Dean in Florida, who teaches classes on wild foraging and has a large selection of videos on youtube. According to him, stachys affinis/floridana, better known as Chinese artichoke, can sell for upwards of $100 a pound in nothern population centers. I have a degree in restaurant management and have worked as a chef for close to ten years, and I've never heard of anyone paying that much for them, but I've never lived in Chicago or Manhattan either. Mushrooms of all kinds seem to do well, along with speciality items that have a niche market, such as sunroot for diabetics, (inulin is not to be confused with insulin, but apparently the inulin form of carbs is easier for diabetics to handle - at least that's the claim of one business selling sunroot online,) as well as a wide range of medicinal plants. The dietary supplement market is still mostly unregulated, so I suppose you could devise an herbal blend for teas and various tinctures with targeted health benefits. Honey and other bee products seem to escape most government oversight - in some areas hives have to be registered and inspected periodically, and there are certain laws with regard to shipping bees through the mail, such as a stipulation that a queen bee must be accompanied by at least seven workers of the same bee strain. The best youtube video series on beekeeping, in my opinion, is offered by a guy named Don Kuchenmeister in Lula, GA, not far from Atlanta.

A lot of people toy with the idea of having pick-you-own operations, but I'd be hesitant to let large numbers of people on my property - I may be overly critical of human nature, but I have visions of bored, undisciplined children wacking at tender young fruit trees with broken limbs, running around and breaking their own limbs, (law suit $$$,) and their parents stuffing their pockets full of nuts and berries and trying to scamper off without paying for them fairly. Anyhow, even if people are basically good and honest, you still have public restrooms, likely some staff wages, liability insurance, soil compaction, uneven land use, and various other problems to worry about.

The final issue I have in my own ponderings is this: there aren't enough hours in a day. I think all of us need to more or less specialize in one primary industry we are passionate and knowledgeable about, and entertain a few seasonal industries to offset the primary one. In the world of permaculture there are lots of opportunities that nicely dovetail together, but we can't all produce our own food, make our own clothes/tools/furniture/biodiesel, build our own house/fences/water tanks and maintain them, market every single idea we can conceive of to a profitable level, homeschool our kids, maintain family relationships and write ten bestselling books within the year. I'd much rather munch on a few perennials and buy things like tomatoes and squash from my neighbors, for example, than spend ten hours a week managing a kitchen garden - I can't possibly grow the number of varieties with the same quality as John Doe next door, has mater fever like no one else, so why try, when I can support his endeavors and have more time to pursue my own. We don't necessarily have to form an egalitarian commune to have a viable community.

Anyway, thanks again for your input, Calvin.

I'm a fan of Green Dean. I take a lot of folks on plant walks because my market is next to a forest. I always point those that are interested in learning about foraging to his site. He certainly has a wealth of knowledge to tap into.

Interesting that you mentioned mint root. That's on my list of things to try. I have run across root starts on the net. They're out there. Goji berries fascinate me too. They seem to be as easy as willows to propagate and they're super trendy, but who has had a fresh berry from one? Jam a stick in the ground and presto, new plant. Did you know the seeds contained in the dried berries you might buy in the health food store are almost always viable? The gent that sold it to me told me he thought it might be the next illegal invasive. Sold... Seems pretty perfect to me. Protein, 18 amino acids, other good stuff. The leaves are edible as well. I'll bet they'd look nice in an edible bouquet. I've started with one plant that I'll be propagating in the spring. I may get a couple more to kickstart that. I've heard claims from folks that say the yield from one acre is quite a bit of money.

So, if one were to grow food in a backyard can they sell in a farmer's market without being zoned for agriculture and inspected? This probably varies from state to state?

I've thought a lot about a pick your own model. It has a lot of potential pit falls, but not having to pay out a bunch of pickers is a pretty huge benefit. Some of the videos I ran into on honor system kiosks are interesting as well.

I thought a camp ground model might be fun to try. Charge a fee that gives folks run of the property and a box they can fill up with food, or waive the fee in exchange for 3 or 4 hours of work per day... Part of the fee would include listening to me talk their ears off. It wouldn't be a value add it would be mandatory. Heh.

I'm with you. I don't necessarily trust human nature, but I'm willing to take a risk on it. A marauding human is probably less destructive than a marauding deer. A deer, however, will not try to sue you.

Not enough hours in they day? With you on that. That's why I keep looking for easy stuff that I don't have to manage. I'm so bad that I get other folks to sprout things for me so I don't have to and encourage them to come out to my plot and take cuttings of things to sell back to me when they're actually plants. I could see myself enjoying that eventually, but I'm too busy staring at bugs to sprout alpine strawberries.

Calvin Mars wrote:

I thought a camp ground model might be fun to try. Charge a fee that gives folks run of the property and a box they can fill up with food

I think this is similar to what Sepp Holzer does. People pay some huge fee to tour his farm, and they can take what food they pick. He isn't selling food, he's selling tours. And very successfully, apparently.

http://backtoedenfilm.com/
watch this show. this inspired me, and he is a living example of working Permaculture.

I have no examples to show you, but I can tell you one thing. Permaculture has re-instilled in me the belief that a better world is achievable. That I am not the only one out here trying to find a better way. That we can be free from the chains of industrialized agriculture. We can be free from GMO foods. We can reduce greenhouse gas emissions by reducing the amount of organic materials in the landfills. We can make something that our children can see, taste and smell. They will remember that we didn't stand idly by after the mistakes of our predecessors did immeasurable damage to our world. That's what Permaculture, and the people that are out there trying, have already given me without putting a single seed in the ground.

Permaculture has to go further, to be collectively -and not only personally- viable.
What we can individually do is not possible at large scale.

Can you even imagine hundreds of people foraging at the same place?
We are far from 1 to 3 persons / square mile!

We behave like predators on earth, as we have none.
Predators' number is regulated by food availability.
In the past, and up to know, we artificially increased food, especially carbs.

As long as we do not take population number into account in permaculture,
this will not be real permaculture.

Or else we will go on being regulated by wars and other ways to make us live less, and leave room for the next generation.
Do you wan to go on with the "man is a wolf for man" fate?
It has been so for centuries.

BUT there is a big difference now:
we have increased the population a lot thanks to technologies,
increased peace in a lot of places (great of course, but it does not mean no more problem),
have less possibilities of emigrating,
are able to have "dead" lands without famine thanks to chemistry...
And we shut our eyes on the fact that we can live as we do thanks to all what is produced at low prices for us in poorer countries. We even believe we help them develop by giving them jobs... Just look honestly at all your goods and you will see that even the best willing persons are part of this!

So, the next drastic population decrease is likely to be worse if we do not take sustainable decisions about the social structure around family.
So, we can always look better at what we can do, especially about the difficulty in talking about such a taboo subject as conscious and on purpose birth control. Let's make it a natural topic to speak about and a major concern in our society!

We also have to help the countries that have increasing population. And I do not mean by advises, but by our behaviors at home.
We are also responsible for the fact that faraway farmers must rely on children to help them retiring and other facts I am certainly not aware about...
Women's respect must also increase.
And, here we have a collective responsibility, we must accept that food prices increase, and that farmers are paid a much more fair price for their goods, and that commercial activities become less lucrative. And don't tell me that commercial studies and jobs are not considered as the best way to make a living. A good seller always makes money, and the mythic self-made man is a business man. That would be a real cultural change to do, wouldn't it?

I know that this is more collective than individual, just think collectivity is made of individuals. It is much more useful to feel responsible than powerless! In one case we can think about solutions and start things without waiting for the other to "start first -and then I will follow-", and avoid some sadness or depression!

I love what James Barr said about starting to "really truly doing this", first connect to the inner forces of hope.
No, of faith.
Faith is the ability to believe even in what is unbelievable, just for the first benefit:
Feel your strength and power even before seeding.
Feel the reserve of power in the seed, for germinating.
And feel the power that we all have dormant in our heart, and that even the worse GMO and chemical maker has! (some might be more dormant than others, but this as as seeds, find the way each one must be stratified!!!)

Permaculture is about plants and other stuffs, ok, but also about transferring this knowledge, in order to know ourselves better, and be part of it all, and find interrelations (I join Collin and Calvin about neighborhood relationship more than self-sufficiency). What we find true about plants or animals can be applied to ourself, and very often we do not see it so well.

Can I add this to permaculture definitions? Permaculture is the art to stratify hearts...

It probably helps that they are in LA and can sell to high-end restaurants, but the Dervaes family of four produces an astonishing amount on a small between freeways. To add to the controversy, they went to the trouble of trademarking or patenting the words "urban homestead," which made some people just furious at them. They now host musical events as well, which is controversial, as some believe that if it is a farm, it should not create gaggles of humans at once.


Connie Van Dyke's Tabor Tilth farm has a wonderful video, narrated by Starhawk, that presents the incredible diversity, production, and wildlife habitat she has nurtured on a city lot. I will never forget watching a baby pop one of Connie's seedless Venus grapes in her mouth, the big eyes, and the subsequent reaching for more.

Different strokes and different oaks for different folks, but UN experts agreed, in an exhaustive study, that agroecology is what works over time. A grumpy reader on truthout muttered that the UN threw it in one of their gold-plated trash cans, but those who heard about it continue to bring it up.

It makes sense that backing up functions, if one actually does it, will make one's production more long-lived, though I hear U.S. cloud back-up could be in some trouble on account of little bugs everybody knows about now. If you are not Amish, they won't come for us first, though. They prefer picking on pacifists.

*just realized this discussion is 7 pages long... I wrote this after getting through the first, now off to read the other 6... Sorry if it's a bit out of context, didn't mean to derail anything*

This is the closest I've come across to what you're looking for Collin, I heard him speak at a lecture about how he's generating 100K+ on a couple acres at the local organics conference. He's got a book out, but it's in french so I don't know how many people will find it useful. I've yet to read the book myself but it covers everything from how to choose a site, how to invest wisely, low impact cultivation vs mechanized (ie broadfork vs roto-tiller), growing indoors/outdoors, extending the growing season (he's a Quebec farmer, so a very short season), planning productions, etc. Basically the entire process of him setting up his farm, which sounds like what you're looking for.

http://lejardiniermaraicher.com/manuel-agriculture-biologique-sur-petite-surface/

Collin Vickers wrote:To reference the original topic of this thread, it seems to me that many of us are trying to go it alone. Although we embrace permaculture, many of us are still thinking along the lines of suburbanites - whereas housing units each require their own facilities for cooking, hygiene, and so on, permies often seem to be hounding down their own postage stamp of paradise, starting from scratch, and doggedly striving to reinvent the wheel for themselves. Clearly we don't all agree on the preponderance of permaculture successes, but for those who share my view, I think misplaced individualism is the key. Permies tend to be self-starting, can-do types, but is this individualistic philosophy hindering us in attaining our common goals?

So what if that is the case? I mean, really, so what? I regard my minuscule attempts at permaculture as a tiny little step in a huge process, that will last for the tiny little sliver of time that I am on this planet, for the tiny little amount of space that I occupy on it. If I can make that space, and my time on it, better, more productive, and more regenerative than it has been before, then my efforts will have been successful. You might demand more, and it's fine with me if you do. But I don't.

Ivan Weiss wrote:

Collin Vickers wrote:To reference the original topic of this thread, it seems to me that many of us are trying to go it alone. Although we embrace permaculture, many of us are still thinking along the lines of suburbanites - whereas housing units each require their own facilities for cooking, hygiene, and so on, permies often seem to be hounding down their own postage stamp of paradise, starting from scratch, and doggedly striving to reinvent the wheel for themselves. Clearly we don't all agree on the preponderance of permaculture successes, but for those who share my view, I think misplaced individualism is the key. Permies tend to be self-starting, can-do types, but is this individualistic philosophy hindering us in attaining our common goals?

So what if that is the case? I mean, really, so what? I regard my minuscule attempts at permaculture as a tiny little step in a huge process, that will last for the tiny little sliver of time that I am on this planet, for the tiny little amount of space that I occupy on it. If I can make that space, and my time on it, better, more productive, and more regenerative than it has been before, then my efforts will have been successful. You might demand more, and it's fine with me if you do. But I don't.

There are some really interesting things that this thread brings out. For one, there are the many different perspectives on what constitutes "success". Some think that a permaculturist needs to make their living growing stuff on their land - and they don't mean a subsistence level sort of living. Some seem to think that if a great many of us all get our own little piece of land working along permaculture principals the impact of all those postage stamps, and all those people, will be a "success" even if none of them are making a living or even feeding themselves primarily from their plot.

I think expecting a permaculturist to make a good living by farming their land - and only that - is losing track of what "permaculture" is - it's not just about agriculture or horticulture. So an expectation that permaculture can only be called successful if people are making good livings off of their farms is, I think, misguided. I think that it's probably more appropriate to look to some of the developing ecovillage models and see how they are doing things, and how their efforts are working out. These groups represent more than the agricultural aspect of permaculture - indeed, I think their most important element is the human culture that each of them develops and promotes and which then goes about supporting all the rest of the systems - agriculture and so forth.

I really don't envision permaculture as a way for some number of farmers to make their generous living feeding the rest of us. After all, that sounds awfully close to the current situation in the developed world. I see permaculture as much more of a distributed system, wherein we all do more to produce for ourselves and become less dependent upon a small number of food producers.

That vision has some inevitable cultural changes, and economic impacts. Perspective on whether they are good or bad changes and impacts depends very much on an individual's place in, and view of, the world.

Opinions are interesting, and also the fact that the challenging title induced justification.
I mean in résumé "we all try to do our best with our personal situation".

So, this "best" results in different opinions about what is successful permaculture.

Permaculture is an APPLIED concept, not only about food even if feeding is crucial.
And I very much agree that it has primarily to do with RELATIONS.

I think their most important element is the human culture that each of them develops and promotes and which then goes about supporting all the rest of the systems - agriculture and so forth.

To Xisca Nicolas:

What if all the Permaculture founders had been birth controlled out of existence? I certainly wouldn't have wanted somebody to make that choice for me.

And what about Sepp Holzer's claim that his methods could feed 21 Billion people without irrigation? If we used all of our useless lawns, golf courses, horse lots, building roofs, and urban parks for food growing, it would make a big difference.

Sorry if I have misunderstood you, but I am wondering why you are worried about this, given the above.

I heven't read through everything here, as I came in quite late in the conversation. As an answer to the basic question, Permaculture is a design system for sustainable human settlements (from teh Designers Manual) so, if a person is doing sustainable stuff, but NOT designing a system, it isn't really Permaculture. By the same token, people who design a system, decide it doesn't work and give up, are ignoring the Permaculture principle of "Apply self regulation and ACCEPT FEEDBACK" (Holmgren, Principles and Pathways).
As to what is actually being asked in the original post (as oppose to just the topic) it seems Collin is seeing Permaculture as an all or nothing sort of situation. Bill Mollison sort of addressed this sort of thinking (possibly in the Designers Manual, my copy of which seems to have disappeared from its spot next to my computer for just such discussions) when he talked about a "type one error". Mollison suggests that people should start where they are, with what they have and do what they can. So Collin's "silly little polyculture (I think is how he phrased it) if designed and managed according to the Principles, is the right thing to do. Protracted and thoughtful observation (Introduction to Permaculture, Molison et al.) may potentially help get it from being a "silly little" polyculture, to a point where it is a "productive little polyculture." In the mean time, anything we can all do to conserve natural resources is s step in the right direction. It is not an all or nothing. Doing what the Original Poster is doing, or doing what Sepp Holzer is doing (and his system does provide commercial quantities of some products I believe) it can potentially be Permaculture, and it is most certainly a step in the right direction.

And as to the self starting individualistic, go it alone types, there is a place for them, but Permaculture isn't just about Permanent Agriculture, it is also Permanent CULTURE, and people doing stuff on their own doesn;t work toward this end. This is why (among other things) chaoter fourteen of teh designers manual encourages bioregional organisations and local cooperatives, as well as trying to describe a basis for founding a Permaculture based alternative society. This is (supposed to be) discussed here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/112916818793466/?fref=ts (although I did hijack the group, which after all, I founded, for the recent Australian election.)
I would consider this to be an example of success, although I do not know what input/output ratio she has, what economic return she obtains, or any other "numbers" relating to this (I don't even know if she is still alive." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugFd1JdFaE0

Permaculture has changed the way I do everyday things, the way i think, the way I react to problems. Once you figure out how to make your life more permaculture friendly it just gets easier.
Do I dig big swales? No I live in the city and plant my apple seeds in every planter box, city park and nature path I can find. I scatter annual flower and food seeds in vacant lots (seed bomb).
It's taught me to reuse more, recycle more, and about buying locally.
So am I actulaly doing permaculture? Yes I think I am.
Rhoda

Hey Collin:

Caveat: I've only read the first page of replies to this thread (pretty great responses!) but not the whole thing - so sorry if this is redundant.

I can appreciate what you're trying to get at - a template or guide for a particular climate, over the years that at least has some "best practices" that can be applied to what you're doing.

Living in Phoenix, AZ - a hot desert climate, many permaculture memes do not work here or work differently. There are tricks and mindsets that a hot desert permie has to learn. And that learning experience, without guides, can take awhile because you have to try, observe nature (which works on it's own schedule), analyze, try again, probably fail again in some new and exciting way and then repeat - oftentimes this takes years.

Here's what I did:
--looked for LOCAL folks doing permaculture and really asked them about their processes - what they think is working and what is not. One of our big "gurus" here lives on a flood irrigated piece of land - he can accomplish on his land things that the rest of us have no access to. Keep in mind that most people will want to either defend what they've done (even if its not working all that well) or only show you the successful things. It's just human nature - plus, lets face it - we all want to revel in what we finally feel we got right!
--Anyone west of the Mississippi should own copies of Brad Lancaster's books "Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands and Beyond, Vol 1 and 2). Water is critical to the West. Water is necessary to build soil to support plants and people. Start by designing around water harvesting - first design for water harvesting in the soil, then, after your land becomes rehydrated - usually about 7 years, add cisterns if you want. (obviously this depends on what kind of property you have).
--KNOW YOUR CLIMATE - so many people, myself included, start off by thinking that all methods work in all climates. They don't. You'll be way ahead of the game if you can define your climate (semiarid steppe in your case) and know its limitations (water, soils, etc). Design within those limitations. I will NEVER build a raised bed in the hot desert (hugel or otherwise) because it's just not appropriate hot desert technology with ONE exception I've found so far - an insulated wicking bed.
--Know your goals. Your goals are different than mine. My goal was to significantly lower my expenses and provide a healthy refuge for myself after an insidious autoimmune disease attacked and I lost the ability to do my job, much of my vision, a great share of my health and 73% of my income. I managed to scale back and keep my house on that single, decimated income and keep experimenting with the help of my parents - and defy the odds on this disease (you can see a brief blog on this here: http://permaculturenews.org/2013/03/20/working-with-what-youve-got-how-losing-my-vision-gave-me-perspective/)
--Keep excellent records yourself of what works and what doesn't. Lets face it - most of us fail to do this adequately and this is part of where your own frustration is coming from. Most people, when they first start out, probably don't think to themselves: "hey, one day I'll be a famous dryland permaculturist so I'd better keep track of all these things that failed or didn't work out, etc so people can learn from me". Most of us don't go into this expecting to fail (repeatedly). The vast majority of us are experimenters.

Another thought is to hang out with likeminded individuals and keep up on each others projects. I'm just starting to go through my projects and document them - what worked, what didn't, what I changed over time, etc. I'll put all of this up on my blog for anyone to see. I'm still contemplating putting the costs there due to privacy issues. My goal for my blog will be to share what I've learned and the few "best practices" that have come out of the experience thus far. And, when this is set up, I would love to encourage other drylanders the world over, to share what works for them. That way we build up communal knowledge upon which to draw.

So basically - I appreciate what you're looking for. I feel your frustration. I believe we are at a point where enough people are experimenting in enough different situations that we can start building "best practice" models/templates. I'm interested in dryland templates as that's where I live and that's what excites me. I love a good challenge. We need to crowd source what we need and bring it together (kind of like what the Transition Towns movement does).

If anyone is interested in working together on dryland models - let me know (PM or email).

Many thanks,
Jen in Phoenix.

We are doing permaculture. There is no simple formula. You've got to dig in. We've started a CSA, but you've got to be very very careful, as most of the CSAs in our region are saturated.

Read our article today, it's about digging in, and what farming takes. Comments on the blog are appreciated!

http://bit.ly/1aWmHHA

Cheers,
Noah

James Colbert wrote:Here is my plan to make a living with permaculture (keep in mind that this is just a plan and nothing is set in stone).

Step 1. Grow enough food for myself and build and off grid domicile. (this step lowers my cost of living significantly).
Step 2. Form a CSA with a couple of members (they eat what I eat, ie high quality diverse foods).
Step 3. Plant blackberries, strawberries, blueberries and raspberries in poly-culture for you pick it. (this keeps cost of production low, no packaging, shipping, or harvesting labor on my part)
Step 4. Expand CSA. more members, same high quality and diversity of food.
Step 5. Farmers Market

This plan is based of the advice of a local organic farmer who has farmed in the area for nearly 15 years. Farmers markets are the last step because they are the most expensive and risky when compared to forming a CSA or having a "you pick it." Berries have a good return on investment and produce in their second year so the "you pick it" will initially center around berry production but will later expand to include fruit trees, vegetables and perhaps ponds for fish.

I would eventually like the CSA to be caloric based for example you can order packages which are 25%, 50% and 100% of ones daily calories. I am thinking of $100 a month for 25% and perhaps $200 for 100% I want the price on high quality food to be very reasonable. 10 CSA members would equal $1000/month. I would probably want no more than 30 -- 50 CSA members per farm depending on size. That is $3000 - $5000 a month, not too hard to imagine if your product is cheaper than supermarkets but of higher quality. On top of that you have income from the you pick it and select farmers markets.

Of course it probably won't work out exactly like the above but you get the idea. Provide for yourself, build a loyal customer base and market in ways that keep costs low.

On a side note I think Collin is dead on. I would love to start a farm with a number of other people and as we become profitable splinter off into individuals or small groups which can start their own farms and help others do the same. I think we can spread permaculture best by showing how the lifestyle is superior to the consumption based rat race. Imagine it, you start a farm with 5 other people after 3 - 5 years you are profitable enough to invest in another piece of land. Half of you stay on the original piece of land while the other half nurture the new piece of land. All the while working together. Get some more people with passion to come work with you for a few years and do it all over again. Build community, spread the culture, rinse and repeat. In the future I see the permaculture lifestyle being a valid alternative for the masses to our current consumer lifestyle. The economic viability of permaculture is important insofar as we want the movement to spread.

It struck me rather suddenly this afternoon that our discussion here is looking at the subject almost entirely from one specific perspective, and not a very permaculture one at that.

All of us engaging in this thread are relative "haves" in the world. Proven by the fact that we're engaging in a discussion and exchange of ideas through the internet. "Have-nots" are not logging onto the internet to chat about permaculture, they both have no (or effectively no) access to the internet and much more pressing demands on their time, like gathering food and fuel for tonight's dinner.

From our "have" perspective, we're asking "how do I use permaculture to keep up my current lifestyle?" - and before anyone goes off on me about how they're cutting back and reducing, etc., it's a general description and I recognize it won't fit absolutely everyone - but I think the tenor of this thread shows that it fits many pretty well.

Meanwhile, the "have-nots" need to be introduced to permaculture not so they may maintain their current lifestyle, but so that they may improve it by leaps and bounds and on an ongoing, increasing basis. To some extent there are probably people out there in that part of the world's population that are utilizing permaculture (Mollison and Lawton could probably give us examples)but we won't hear them in these discussions because they're still without internet access and they're still working on things much more immediate to their needs than internet talks.

So, how to define "really doing permaculture" really needs to be given some thought with a broad - really broad - perspective. For the family someplace in sub-Saharan Africa that has found out about permaculture and been able to utilize swales to hold water, mob-grazing to restore grasslands and perennial crops to reduce the amount of work needed to grow food, that has reduced their fuel needs by adopting any of a number of efficient wood burning stoves - they're really doing permaculture. They are not "making a living" from it - it is the way they are living.

About 5 years ago I donated a small amount to kiva.org, the small loan organization and keep re-loaning the same money. You pick someone trying to upgrade/ start their business. SO many farmers wanted money for seed and pesticide and/or herbicides. I contacted Kiva and asked them why can't they form coops or teaching groups and teach people permaculture or at least organic farming. They said I'm welcome to do that. We've given up everything we have to build a self-sufficient homestead and teach along the way, but I"m teaching locals. We might be in the "have" group, but just barely When we get our house finished and more experience under our belts, we'll teach more and more.

Jamie Jackson wrote:About 5 years ago I donated a small amount to kiva.org, the small loan organization and keep re-loaning the same money. You pick someone trying to upgrade/ start their business. SO many farmers wanted money for seed and pesticide and/or herbicides. I contacted Kiva and asked them why can't they form coops or teaching groups and teach people permaculture or at least organic farming. They said I'm welcome to do that. We've given up everything we have to build a self-sufficient homestead and teach along the way, but I"m teaching locals. We might be in the "have" group, but just barely When we get our house finished and more experience under our belts, we'll teach more and more.

Hi Jamie - I do permaculture trainings - and storytelling - as part of my livelihood. We have projects in Asia and Africa. We raise funds by contracting through NGOs and by writing grants. Contact me if you have international experience when the dust settles. Send me a private message.

Cheers,
Noah

I'm gonna venture to say that this probably qualifies as "Really doing permaculture" :



Twenty years ago, Stefan Sobkowiak bought a commercial apple orchard with the intention of converting it to an organic orchard. He did just that, but eventually understood the limitations of the organic model originating from monoculture. He then decided to tear out most of the trees and replant in a way that would maximize biodiversity and yield while minimizing the amount of maintenance required. Inspired by permaculture principles, the orchard now counts over 100 cultivars of apples, plus several types of plums, pears, cherries, and countless other fruits and vegetables.