That special something.....

I have a dish I call "Kedgeree". It's not really, it's a one pot spiced rice dish with vegetables and smoked mackerel, kedgeree usually has eggs in and mine never does. I'd really like to adapt it for my vegan friend, but am not sure what I can get that will give that chewy, salty, umami that the fish gives. Has anyone some suggestions for a plant based something (preferably not too unobtainable/processed) that I could use to make the dish totally vegan friendly?

image source - mine looks a bit like this....

Butler's Soy Curls. They're kinda expensive for what they are, but truly versatile. They'll take on whatever flavor you marinate them in (warm rehydration). I don't know where you'll get mackerel flavoring from, ha ha. But buy a bag and experiment with them. I've been substituting them for chicken.

j

That dish would be very good with any of the mass-market vegan sausage products instead of the fish. However, since you mentioned not wanting something too processed, that might not be a useful suggestion. Takuan from a Japanese market might be good, especially if you took the time to smoke it -- or you could pickle your own radish by dehydrating it a bit, then burying it in miso for a couple months, and optionally smoke it a bit before using (not sure how much time or effort you want to put in).

Jim Garlits wrote:I don't know where you'll get mackerel flavoring from...

I don't know about mackerel specifically, but people use various seaweeds to give a subtle taste of the sea.

I have always heard that a person can make tofu taste like anything they want.

So I ask Mr. Google:

How to make vegan food taste like fish?
An essential for your vegan seafood is lemon (freshly squeezed is best). Lemon pepper is helpful, too, as are dill and mustard seed. Capers and chopped celery are perfect for a zing and a crunch. Olives and sun-dried tomatoes also add a chewy texture and savory flavor. The dailymeal

How does one make tofu taste fishy?
Newbie Advice

As the title states. I have been moving towards veganism from years of being a pescetarian/vegetarian and working in meals solely vegan. I have found tofu to mimic chickeny and steaky foods very well. However I cannot for the life of me figure out how to use it as a fish replacement for taste. I've used a couple of recipes found on Google so far and none of them have worked to my liking. Either requiring a ton of salt or "seafood seasoning which is similar to steak rub". And if so is there a way to get the tofu to mimic different types of fish such as cat fish and salmon? In advance, any help would be appreciated.

Edit to say: see the replies

https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/5darzf/request_how_does_one_make_tofu_taste_fishy/?rdt=44562

That dish looks exactly like the meal I'm making for tonight's dinner: Vegetable Biryani from Sundays at Moosewood Restaurant cookbook. Fabulous flavors of India!
You may like to try hand-shredding oyster mushrooms then tossing them in soy sauce before frying in a little peanut (or high heat) oil. The mushrooms will weep with the salty soy sauce so keep that pan hot and let that mushroom juice & oil coat the mushrooms and evaporate into a salty umami delight. Some people use this method (and different seasonings) as a replacement for pulled pork, also called "pulled mushrooms." Season to taste to resemble "that special something..." in Kedgeree. Oh how I would love to try your recipe!

Ooh, yum! I like the sound of Amy's suggestion.

Seitan (gluten meat) would give the right chewiness. I always knead mine a little too much when I make it because I love extra chewy! Maybe a little shredded seaweed for the ocean taste?

Thanks everyone for the ideas! I haven't come across Butler's soy curls Jim, they maybe a US thing (I'm UK based) but I also never go food shopping except in my own shop. Chilled food is difficult for me to get due to my location. I can get Linda McCartney sausages - you're right Christopher, they would go in this fine.

Amy Gardener wrote:You may like to try hand-shredding oyster mushrooms then tossing them in soy sauce before frying in a little peanut (or high heat) oil.

That sounds like a tasty possibility, they would have a nice chewy consistency. I don't usually have oyster mushrooms (just boring button mushrooms) but I do have dried mushrooms which are rather good when reconstituted. I could put lots of soy in the soaking water, and try them like that.
I suspect that soy and sundried tomatoes may also be an interesting combination....

My recipe (if you fancy having a go):
heat a pan to a moderate heat
grind 1/2 teaspoon each coriander seed, cumin seed, fenugreek seed, and the inside of about 7 green cardamon and put in pan.
add about 1/2 teaspoon each of ground ginger, ground turmeric, and up to 1/2 teaspoon chilli powder (depending on heat preferred and strength). Shake pan and heat spices until they start to smoke a little.
Add a good squirt (2 table spoon?) vegetable oil and stir into spices.
Add 2 cups rice, stir to coat in spicy oil. If adding onion or leek (I don't always) chop and start to cook this now.
Add enough water to cook rice (I estimate about half the depth of rice on top is usually right)
cover and cook till rice is nearly cooked. Stir occasionally.
Add "that special something", a cup of green peas, a cup of sweet corn kernels, a chopped sweet pepper and any other veg you fancy (we had chopped wild cabbage in ours today, but I forgot the peppers, doh!). Cook for about 5 more minutes and it's ready to serve.

If using white basmati rice, the total cooking time is less than 1/2 an hour, for brown rice about 45 minutes.

What about some nice mushrooms? Oysters, or Lion's Mane?

Fry them up separately to get them nice and brown, and they will gain some extra umami, and a bit of chewy texture.

Michael Cox wrote:What about some nice mushrooms? Oysters, or Lion's Mane?

Fry them up separately to get them nice and brown, and they will gain some extra umami, and a bit of chewy texture.

Ha ha! Snap! I think mushrooms are definitely #1 for me at the moment. I'll let you know how they work when I include them.

ha, i was thinking about this thread last night and came here to suggest dried mushrooms! I always have shiitake on hand but could be whatever.

My mom usually makes typical southern unites States pinto beans by adding ham or ham hock.

I wanted to make a vegan version so as an experiment instead of ham, I added some vegan kimchi and smoked paprika.

It was so surprising that the mouthfeel of the cabbage pieces in the beans was similar to ham. Crazy!  And delicious! The kimchee took on the taste of the bean broth.

Maybe try fermented cabbage and a little smoked paprika?

I'm a strict vegetarian and find that kelp powder imparts a flavour of the sea. Also arame, hijiki and nori  never had smoked mackerel, but we use Wright's Liquid Smoke as part of a marinade for tempeh  and coconut flakes when we make "bacon"flavoured foods.  Perhaps marinating tofu or tempeh in stock with one of the sea vegetables and smoke flavour would be a adequate substitute.

I always pictured kedgeree having a consistency more like porridge than the dish in the photo which, as someone else mentioned, looks more like a biryani.

Good luck.

Nancy, do you have access to dulse on Skye? I find it has a.sort of bacony seafood taste that adds a great “umami” note to vegetarian food. Since it dissolves fast, best to add just before serving.

I'm thinking jackfruit is your answer consistency-wise. Then use one or more of the ideas here for giving it the taste of the sea, if you want that.

I haven't used jackfruit in my vegan cooking yet, so you'll want to do a bit of research about whether you want dried or canned.

Try jackfruit for the consistency. Then perhaps use one of the techniques mentioned in this thread if you want a taste of the sea.

I just read this: Jackfruit "can be eaten raw when it's ripe or cooked when it's unripe. (If intending to use as a meat substitute, it's best to use the fleshy fruit arils of an unripe jackfruit!)"

https://www.delish.com/cooking/recipe-ideas/a33604598/how-to-cook-jackfruit/

Nancy,  If your spice rack or supplier has himalayan black salt (kala namak), you can get a bit of that egg flavor back into the dish if it would made a difference.  It's amazing how it substitutes for the lack of egg flavor, even if not providing egg texture.  The recipe looks tasty!

Im not vegan but once in a while my wife and I prepare a vegan meal.  We usually substitute smoked mushrooms for meat.  We think portabellas slow smoked on the grill are as good as steak.  Try marinating with kelp or other seaweed for marine flavor before smoking.

If you get the canned jackfruit, be aware you want the unripe one, packed in brine, rather than the ripe one, packed in sugar syrup.  VERY different!  The green can be used as a vegan substitute for pulled pork-like consistency.  Even in Honolulu, with a huge Asian population, it is hard to find, but the sweet version is sold in most Asian stores and many grocery stores too.

Re: your recipe, I cannot imagine eating a curried rice and vegetable dish with smoked mackerel in it.  Seems the flavors would clash...

But the recommendations for veganizing are good ones.  Another addition for when I want kind of a smoky flavor would be to use toasted sesame oil, the dark brown kind used in Asian cooking, commonly in Korean dishes.  It's quite strong; use it sparingly.  Ditto for liquid smoke and smoked paprika.

I make a fake tuna salad with blended nuts and seeds, dulse and/or kelp powder, plus what would be in mayonnaise--vinegar, a bit of sweetening, a small amount of onion and garlic.  So if you need something pasty like that, you could use a similar technique.

Another option for the "meaty" texture is to use frozen (for at least 24 hours) tofu, which is thawed and squeezed out and broken up, then flavored and cooked.  Think of a wrung-out sponge, which you shred into small pieces.  Exactly like that, with no flavor.  So it works well for chili or the like, where you have a flavorful base that will provide taste to the tofu's texture.

Some of my vegan recipes have won recipe contests, so my food has been judged to taste good...I mean, by other people (I like my own food!  haha)  I'm no longer vegan nor vegetarian but was for decades, so I have a lot of experience cooking that kind of food and trying to mimic ethnic dishes.

Alina Green wrote:Re: your recipe, I cannot imagine eating a curried rice and vegetable dish with smoked mackerel in it.  Seems the flavors would clash...

Ha ha! Ever had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? I suspect this would be great with a little dried vine fruit stirred in too.

Some great ideas here thanks everyone!


source
Dulse does grow locally and I know where to get it - the tide needs to be really low to find it, so spring is a good time.

I've tried Jackfruit, and texture wise I thought it was good. It wasn't very popular (that's how I got to try it!); we don't have many vegans locally that shop with me. I've only got access to tinned but didn't know you could get a sweet version too! I wonder whether it would be better slightly drier? So soaked with either powdered dulse and/or himalayan rock salt. and then toasted slightly before stirring in. We stock the pink sort of himalayan salt - is that the same flavour as the black? Would dulse plus the salt be a good option?

Since we add the 'special something' at the end I might even try jackfruit a few different ways and see which works the best

Unfortunately I can only easily get film silken tofu, since it comes in an ambient package, and that would just be too soft in texture to work well. Seitan again I can't  get, but I gather it is possible to make your own. I'm not sure I want to go to that lengths, although it would be an interesting exercise in it's own right.

Himalayan pink salt is not the same as kala namak which is the black salt. Kala namak has a very sulphurous taste, which is why it makes things taste eggy.

You could try freezing the firm silken tofu just to see how the texture changes. It might be OK.

Kala namak turns your silken tofu into a reasonable vegan substitute for scrambled eggs.

Seitan is easy and kind of fun to make. Here’s how I teach it to keep it simple:
1) Hydrate gluten with a savory liquid enough to make it a thick dough.
2) Optionally season with any spices, herbs, or mix-ins.
3) Mix, fold, or knead however you want to.
4) Steam. (or simmer, or braise, or bake, or grill, tbh.)
 (Next time do things a little different...)

Check your this recipe:
https://theeburgerdude.com/vegan-salmon/#mv-creation-235-jtr

I haven't tried it, but I like his recipes.

Seconding that seitan is super easy to make, if you can get vital wheat gluten. It's easy to find online, basically just wheat flour with the starch washed out leaving only the protein. It takes me less than ten minutes to make a batch. Mix with water and your desired flavoring (VERY necessary to add plenty of flavouring, as plain seitan does not taste good), knead it a bit (the more you knead the chewier the final product is), then it can then be oven baked or steamed or simmered very slowly in stock or sauce. Not boiled, it gets a horrible mushy consistency when boiled - brains! I usually tear mine into small pieces and bake, coating it with a marinade if I want extra flavour. There's also the old-style way to make it from flour and wash the starch out at home, which is hard work and wastes a lot of water!    

If you get kala namak, use it sparingly! It works great to give an eggy flavor to things like tofu scramble or vegan custards, but it's very strongly sulphurous and you need very little.

And yes to vine fruits in curried rice! The Aussie way to make a curry when I was growing up always included a chopped up apple plus raisins or sultanas.

Two ideas; shredded jackfruit gives a nice, mild sweet texture. I use it canned.
Second, I love lions mane mushrooms in that "shredded" meat type of dish.

Jane Mulberry wrote:....It works great to give an eggy flavor to things like tofu scramble or vegan custards, ...

Hopefully not hijacking and so glad you brought up custards, Jane!  I just tried to make a mango-oatmilk custard yesterday using arrow root powder as the starch.  I've also tried cassava flour for this, but in both cases what starts out (after cooking) as a thickened custard seems to become more watery after cooling.  Can't understand why they wouldn't thicken even further upon cooling, but that's the observation.  By morning in the refrigerator, it's become nearly a thick liquid!  Contents of the latest one was 3/4 c. of extra thick and creamy oatmilk (Chobani brand), 3/4 c. mango juice (Jumex brand), 2 tablespoons sugar, 1 tablespoon arrowroot powder, touch of kala namak, and dash of lime juice.  All of this blended together, then heated to a boil until thickened, and finally set aside to cool.  Flavor was quite good; texture needs serious work.  It's interesting that traditional custard is milk base, eggs, and sugar....so the starch powders are substituting for the eggs, even as they are mostly protein and fat.  Maybe I should add a source of protein like pea, chickpea, or use a higher protein nutmilk?....  Thoughts?

[Edited to add,....  Bird's Custard Powder is mostly corn flour or cornstarch...?   Is this a UK product and are we talking about the same 'corn' as in the U.S.?]

You can also make seitan with bread flour and water.  Knead to make dough...same as in making bread.  But then you soak and rinse it in water, to remove the starchy portion, leaving the seitan.

It is a bit of work, though...that's why nowadays everyone buys the powdered gluten flour and just adds water.

Nancy Reading wrote:

Alina Green wrote:Re: your recipe, I cannot imagine eating a curried rice and vegetable dish with smoked mackerel in it.  Seems the flavors would clash...

Ha ha! Ever had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

I don't get it...peanuts and sweet fruit...versus...smoky fish and curry spices.

Do you mean it's because it's salty plus sweet(ish) that these two are analogous?

(My favorite sandwich in high school was tuna salad and bananas...so I know fish can go well with sweet...)

John, I haven't tried using arrowroot to make custard. It should work, but clearly it didn't.

I usually cheat and use psyllium husks to thicken runny sauces! Psyllium powder tends to go gritty but the husk disappears completely into the liquid and leaves no grittiness at all. I used it with my too-runny pasta sauce tonight and it worked great.

Most often when I want custard I also cheat by using a sweetened thick homemade cashew cream with a bit of turmeric for the yellow!  

I just read this about arrowroot: "Should be added at the end of cooking time since extended heat can cause the arrowroot to break down, resulting in a thin sauce."  

Alina Green wrote:I don't get it...peanuts and sweet fruit...versus...smoky fish and curry spices.

Do you mean it's because it's salty plus sweet(ish) that these two are analogous?

I was horrified about the idea of a peanut butter and jam sandwich, until I tried it (yumm). We had a French exchange student that refused to try lemon and sugar on pancakes (crepes). Sometimes things taste better than you think. It might sound weird, but it works. Although smoked fish are probably not to everyone's taste anyway! Kedgeree has been a British thing for about 200 years, although perhaps less common these days, it used to be a breakfast dish.

Nancy Reading wrote: Although smoked fish are probably not to everyone's taste anyway!

Do they taste like kippers, smoked little fish in a can...herring, I believe...yes, I just checked the label.  I like those.  I just wonder about that combined with curried rice and vegetables.

Then again, I like tuna salad and banana as a combo...so you never know, until you try!  

Do let us know how your dish turns out, what you ended up using, and how your friend liked it.  Now you have us hooked...(no pun intended).

Alina Green wrote:Do they taste like kippers, smoked little fish in a can...herring, I believe...

Yes a bit, (although I've not tried kippers tinned) the smoked mackerel we have are firmer and less strong and salty tasting....and since fish aren't a suitable subject for a vegan thread (but see this thread for some fun cultural exchanges!)

Do let us know how your dish turns out, what you ended up using, and how your friend liked it.  Now you have us hooked...(no pun intended).

Will do - thanks!

Seitan. Good texture absorbs flavor and good for digestion because it is fermented

Mar Viega wrote:Seitan. Good texture absorbs flavor and good for digestion because it is fermented

How is seitan fermented?

Christopher Weeks wrote:

Mar Viega wrote:Seitan. Good texture absorbs flavor and good for digestion because it is fermented

How is seitan fermented?

Oh no! I mixed it in my mind - the fermentation - with tempeh! So sorry. I use both. I have terrible intestinal issues with regular tofu but not with saitan nor tempeh.

...Compared to tempeh, a plant-based meat alternative made from fermented whole soybeans, seitan is slightly higher in protein but lower in fat, calories, and carbs. They can be used in similar dishes, though tempeh is easier to crumble.

Nancy Reading wrote:

Alina Green wrote:I don't get it...peanuts and sweet fruit...versus...smoky fish and curry spices.

Do you mean it's because it's salty plus sweet(ish) that these two are analogous?

I was horrified about the idea of a peanut butter and jam sandwich, until I tried it (yumm). We had a French exchange student that refused to try lemon and sugar on pancakes (crepes). Sometimes things taste better than you think. It might sound weird, but it works. Although smoked fish are probably not to everyone's taste anyway! Kedgeree has been a British thing for about 200 years, although perhaps less common these days, it used to be a breakfast dish.

Any nut butter - especially pumpkins seeds/pepitas or also water melon seeds and even peanuts (all ground to a powder or a butter, raw is best,) are surprizingly delicious with a savory sauce, even in a taco - as far as my taste buds say anyway. Add to sauce, rice, etc. I don't prefer peanuts though ...