creating a Food forest from an orchard

We have recently moved to an acreage and I have been reading about permaculture and food forests. We have a small (maybe 1\4 acre) orchard with 4 old apple trees, a pear tree, a cherry tree, and some mulberry trees.
My question is would it be a good idea to use the trees already here and add plants to make it a food forest? Maybe since I am inexperienced this would be too big a project to start with?
The area is covered with grass between the trees and I'm not sure where to start.

I would prune, fertilize and other wise give what you have a bit of care and see what they do.

if they fruit you're way ahead because newly planted fruit trees are usually 3 - 5 years until fruit...or more.

I wouldn't worry about the grass on mature trees, and yes, add to those to make up a food forest if they're good.  You can always gradually do in the grass as you plant other things with mulch covered cardboard, being careful not to cover up too much of the mature trees root area at once.

Karen, Welcome to Permies!
I hope you don't mind, but I think you deserve a thread of your own!
How lovely to have an established orchard to start with! As Dave says this means you are ahead of things in creating a food forest. The only downside I can think of is that the tree spacing may not be optimum for underplanting. This will depend on your climate and lattitude, but the farther North you are the wider the trees will want to be to ensure productive understories.

Thanks-I had wondered about the spacing of things. Maybe just do some plantings around the base of the trees to deter insects and add nutrients? I haven’t investigated it too much, but that may be the way to go…

Hi there Karen,

Check out info from local master gardener programs and maybe send some photos to folks who are familiar with your region...wondering if the trees have been cared for/ pruned recently...is the land you are on a former "farm", "homestead", "ranch"

Chickens are an awesome addition to a, orchard...they keep insects down, love pecking at fallen fruit, and are adorable, as well as having the eggs, which will have a deep additional nutritional level from being allowed to forage on the orchard floor...there are a bunch of great ideas to create lightweight, movable small chicken houses for a dozen hens, and a way to create moveable "runs"...so their droppings get spread throughout the orchard and possibly whatever gardens you plant...and protect them from the potential predators

blessings!!!
Stacy Rose
Hudson Valley NY

We have a friend who came out last fall and pruned the app!e trees and the cherry. The apples really produced this year. The cherry tree needs help, plus it was a drought year.
We think the land was a hobby place to raise different birds.

Congrats on the move. I think it’s a perfect idea to start it around this area of trees. They seem spaced out further than necessary so there should be room to add any other trees you want in the future. A good start if you’re worried is starting guilds around the existing trees. This can be done for less than $20 per tree including putting a cage around it if you have wildlife pressure.  If you have a tractor supply near you or Lowe’s you can get everything you need there and get a year guarantee.

One I just used was onion, garlic, strawberry, blueberry, and cannas. i Have more comfrey on order so the ones i planted yesterday and the few I have left will get that instead of canna.

Do your research on what you want and make sure climate zones etc will match up (watch this big time at the big box stores) and once you’ve got your plan go for it!

Good luck!

While we're at it, speaking of orchards, let's not forget tree guilds. I'm also doing this in the spring with my own little linear orchard. Why I went linear four years ago I don't remember... I'll make it work. But a tree guild is simply a bunch of plants under and around your tree. Each plant does something different. Here are three important things they might do:

1. Provide nutrients to the tree.  Think comfrey
2. Attract pollinators so you get tons of fruit. Think bee balm.
3. Repel harmful insects. Think garlic chives or dill (or both).

j

Karen Kidney wrote:We have recently moved to an acreage and I have been reading about permaculture and food forests. We have a small (maybe 1\4 acre) orchard with 4 old apple trees, a pear tree, a cherry tree, and some mulberry trees.
My question is would it be a good idea to use the trees already here and add plants to make it a food forest? Maybe since I am inexperienced this would be too big a project to start with?
The area is covered with grass between the trees and I'm not sure where to start.

How to Make an Existing Orchard a Food Forest?

This is a fascinating question that I've been asked several times these past weeks.

1.  Start by walking in the orchard for the next week or so every day with a notepad and your camera.  Just observe Take notes of the Scales of Permanence stuff that PA Yeomans talks about when designing.  I wrote a blog,  https://www.permaculturegardens.org/design-your-permaculture-garden  about this recently.  But I boil these scales down to 10 ish steps.

Observe

Think Holistically

Identify Your Zones of Use

Know Your Climate

Find Your Microclimates

Note Your Topography

Channel Water

Ensure Proper Access

Investigate the Weeds

Placing Structures

2. Using Your Notes, list the major problems you see that need to be answered for instance:

- So messy here.  Need to clean up the brush!  The messy forest floor can harbor pests and diseases. If you're an orchardist then you likely have a nicely mowed pathway.
- Too many weeds!  What are those weeds?  Beneficial or not?  If totally not, like ivy! This is a major problem
- No weeds - not good.

3. Prioritize Your Orchard Problems.
4.  Make a schedule and budget to address the problems you find.

Does this make sense?

Then you can think about the guilds, esp if they are solutions to several of your problems!  

Karen said, My question is would it be a good idea to use the trees already here and add plants to make it a food forest?

Those established trees would be the Overstory Layer of the Food Forest.

There are seven layers for making a Food forest.

My suggestion would be to start considering what your Shrub Layer would be.  Consider what type of berries you would like.

Also, look into perennial vegetables for the Herbaceous layer.

Here are a couple of threads about perennial vegetables that might interest you or others:

https://permies.com/t/187693/perennial-vegetables/Perennial-plants-produce-year

https://permies.com/t/perennial-greens

Thank you all! There are many nuggets of knowledge here and this will help pull my thoughts and actions together. 😊

Karen, welcome to Permies! You mention acreage in your post, do you have more area to expand? If so, or if you have neighbors with interest, following Sepp Holzer's method of seedling propagation could take advantage of having locally proven trees already. Basically, save the mash from cider pressing, or cores and pits from eaten and fallen fruit. Allow this to ferment with some of the fruit still on the seed if plausible, as this aids germination. This can happen on the ground over winter or in a bucket. Spread the mash or cores/pits on unimproved soil (the only requirement is decent drainage) where a new tree would be suitable, and cover with wood chips. Thin out to select for the strongest several seedlings the first year, and then the strongest tree altogether after a few years. If the fruit is unpalatable (as apples and cherries do not breed true to type), graft onto this proven hardy rootstock tree with scion-wood of a varietal you want.

‘This will depend on your climate and lattitude, but the farther North you are the wider the trees will want to be to ensure productive understories’.

Our latitude is 43 degrees. Where can I find info on how far apart to plant things?

Another possibility is to use any beat up older trees as a base to graft onto, if the main trunk seems OK.

As far as the trees go, it would help if you knew if they were grown on dwarf, semi-dwarf or standard sized rootstock.  If you know the variety, it is easy enough to google the mature size of ________. With that info, you'll know the crown size.  If you divide that number in half, that will be the measurement from the edge to the trunk.  That's at least as far away as you should plan to plant from the nearest tree.  I hope that makes sense; if not, just ask and I'll try to say it clearer! There can be huge differences even with the shrub layer, depending on the variety you choose.  I have serviceberry--The Autumn Brilliance variety is a 25'+ tree, while the 'Regent' is a shrub that will top out at 4-6'.  Most sites will tell you how hardy (what zone) a plant is.  Some people choose to push the boundries and work with microclimates; others abide by the zones.  I would love to have Asian persimmons, but stick to the American persimmons because of this.  Do you plan to prune the trees well each year? I am trying out the "Grow a Little Fruit Tree" method, where a tree can be kept very small.  I have shrunk over the years, and now stand at under 5'.  I am also in my 60's and am not keen on climbing tall ladders.
Stefan Sobkowiac has great videos for northern climes.  He's out of Canada and his land was a monoculture of apple trees.  He is converting it all to a permaculture style planting.  He talks about planting in trios.  He also has great tips for effective, natural insect controls, pruning, etc.  If you're ordering trees, the description should tell you mature size. It is lovely that you have some fruiting trees going forward!  I live in Vermont and am able to grow more than 50 types of fruit including kiwi and paw paw.  I imagine you can too--it is thrilling to think about all of the free food one can grow.  I do nothing small, and that goes for gardening, too.  I have much more than I need, with the intention that wildlife will need some, and so that I can donate a lot to the local food shelf and my neighborhood.  

Karen Kidney wrote:‘This will depend on your climate and lattitude, but the farther North you are the wider the trees will want to be to ensure productive understories’.

Our latitude is 43 degrees. Where can I find info on how far apart to plant things?

Welcome Karen.  I used to know a car guy in Tea (perhaps I still do, but it's been a while and for the life of me can't think of his name right now).  Anyway, congratulations on the purchase.

One principle of implementing permaculture is observe and interact.  The implication of that is to get a better understanding of your property with things like sun/shade, water flow, desire lines (where people / animals want to walk), etc.  Another thing to consider is the order of operations - in my permaculture design course, it was hammered home as water, access, structures.  Since you have an existing property, there may be limits to what you can do or change, but if you need to do some earthworks to capture / retain / redirect water, it is much better to do that before you jump into any sort of planting and potentially have to dig up and move plants later.

Along those veins, I took my PDC primarily to be able to better understand how to work with our 7 acre property in southern Manitoba and I view it as an investment to avoid costly mistakes.

I concur with Barbara that Stefan Sobkowiak and his YouTube channel is a fantastic resource.  He is located near Montreal, so I'd imagine his winter low temperatures may be close to yours.  Like you, he bought a property with an existing orchard (granted his is on a larger scale).  He's been at it for decades experimenting, learning, and making changes.  

Another thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of stuff out there, different words used, and not all of it will be applicable to you.  One of the most important things to keep in mind with respect to taking advice is that it should be context-specific.  That is, someone telling you to plant bananas in SoDak isn't really worth listening to (short of having a great greenhouse like the fellow with YT channel Arkopia, who harvested bananas in Saskatchewan).  So, in that respect, you may be better listening to suggestions from similar climates like Stefan or Paul Wheaton.

Next, I'd consider what you want and what you're trying to achieve.  If you want to grow additional food, then a permaculture orchard is a wonderful idea.  If you would like to add variety to the orchard (being surrounded by grass isn't necessarily ideal for trees), then you may be on the right track.  The concept of tree guilds, as already mentioned, or Stefan's Trio concept, is to support the health of your tree by adding diversity (which helps attract beneficial wildlife and can deter ones that act as pests or disease vectors), shading roots to keep them cooler, helping with nutrient cycling (plants that act as dynamic accumulators), all while adding to a more natural environment (diversity) and potentially providing yields to you as well as the ecosystem.  That is, you may obtain food, medicinal ingredients, or even appreciation of the beauty of it reducing stress and improving your health.

Depending on how you operate and how your mind works, it may be worthwhile to simply sit down and start making a list of what you'd like to do and why.  For some people, that helps with clarification and helps them focus on where they want it to go.

If you aren't interested in taking a PDC yourself, it may be worthwhile to find out if there is a local permaculture consultant who would be able to look at your property and help guide you.  Failing that, you could do a virtual consultation with someone farther afield, but recognize that going from maps / photos / descriptions isn't always the same as looking at the land.

It sounds like you have a great starting point whichever way you choose to go.  I think you can certainly use it as a starting point to create a food forest / permaculture orchard / garden of your dreams.  

I hope this has been of some use to you.  Good luck.

How exciting for you to not only have acreage now, but that it comes with already established fruit trees! What a gift!
Regarding permaculture and food forests, I find Geoff Lawton to be a wealth of information. He has a youtube channel covering many topics, all to do with permaculture, and most to do with food forests.

Degrees of latitude is just one statistic. I am a ways north of you, but a much milder climate. We get drizzle in the winter instead of ice and snow.

I would think strategically about how to use full sun and shade. I imagine that there are a lot of plants like raspberries and currants that are going to want some shade in your hot summer climate.   Try to get a diversity of fruit trees.  American persimmons and pawpaws are very genetically distinct from our apples, pears, plums and cherries, so the diversification will be helpful.  Same with autumn olive, goumi, or cornus mas/edible dogwood.  Think about native flowers and specific plants that will attract helpful bugs like lacewings, minute pirate bugs, parasitic wasps, ladybugs, and syrphid flies.  Most importantly, take care of your soil, by adding wood chips on the surface and feeding things that help your soil, like fungi. Don't plow and in the long run, cover the grass and add more diverse plants between the fruit trees.

John S
PDX OR

Barbara gave some good advice on calculating tree spacing. I would add a couple of things to that.
First in your case knowing what rootstock the trees are on is going to be tricky. Your best hope is that the trees are already mature and so are unlikely to grow much more. Look at the existing spacing and how the light moves on the ground through the day and through the year (observation) are there areas that get more light and less light? You can then choose underplanting that will suit those conditions.
The further North you go the more widely spaced the trees need to be for underplanting to make use of the reduced light and heat. In a tropical area you can plant closer than in a warm temperate area which can be planted closer than a cool temperate or further towards the poles.
The plants will tell you if they are happy by thriving, but although you can get guidelines from a book like Martin Crawford's 'How to build a forest garden' it will always need filtering for your specific location.
In my case I probably wouldn't have bothered (edit: if I believed everything the books told me), but the trees seem to grow all the same! Albeit more slowly and less productive than they would be 500 miles further South. Choosing varieties that are happier in poor conditions ought to help (but not relevant in your case - sorry I'm wandering on topic).
My main problem is getting the understory established, since grass seems to be very persistent and successful at reestablishing and surviving under any mulch I put down.

Second that on Martin Crawfords stuff.

I've gone deep down the rabbit hole reading on forest gardens and nobody has as much practical, hands on info as he does. You can also see his results, which counts for a lot with me.His youtube channel is great but the books have much more of the how-to info. Had I known about him early on I would have avoided a few big overall planning mistakes.



here's an interesting article on how he got started:

https://www.gardensillustrated.com/gardens/gardeners/forest-garden-martin-crawford

As always, when considering trees, J Russel Smith's  tree crops is an incredible resource for low maintenance tree uses:

https://archive.org/details/TreeCrops-J.RussellSmith

I also like Martin Crawford's stuff. He shows mostly big acreage places.

Eric Toensmeier is more helpful, IMHO, with smaller places.  I have a food forest on an average suburban lot, and his book was very helpful to me. I also liked his book on perennial vegetables.

This is the web page for he and his co-author, Dave Jacke:

https://www.edibleforestgardens.com/about-the-authors

John S
PDX OR

Awesome advice and resources! Thank you everyone!