Micro hydro

Hello. I'm going to build a micro hydro system for my offgrid property in northern Ontario. I need to run 4 inch pipe from the mountain stream 800 feet to where the turbine will be located. Has anyone used the green pvc in 10 foot lengths for there system. This seems to be one of the least expensive pipes I can find . As I say I need about 800 feet and I'm trying to keep costs to a minimum.  I'm concerned that it may not be quite strong enough to withstand the psi's as well as  the harsh  ontario winters. Does anyone know what the pressure rating is for the green pvc sewage pipe that is sold at homedepot Rona, etc. ? Has anyone ever used that type of pipe or does anyone have any low cost suggestions/ solutions ?
Thanks very much .

When you say "green PVC pipe" are you referring to it's color, or it's environmental friendliness?  The sewage pipe I've purchased there before is not rated for any pressure at all!  The best I can come up with is 2" schedule-40 pipe that sells for 14.10 per 10' lengths if you are buying more than 10 pieces.  That has a maximal working pressure of 280 psi.  That would be >1100USD to go 800'.

Before you go any further, I have to ask whether or not you have done the math yet to determine what you need to produce, and what that requires in terms of flowing water?  How many watts of electricity will you need to have each and every day?  Will this be running year round, even in January, when it's -40 outside?  What's the amount of vertical drop from your stream 800' away?  The vertical drop is what produces the pressure, with ~0.5 psi/foot of drop.  Let's say the vertical drop from 800' away is 200 vertical feet.  The pressure of the flowing water will be ~100psi.  With numbers like this, you'll be able to calculate how many watts of power you can produce.

Once you know the vertical drop (psi), and the volume of water, you can calculate the watts.  I'll guestimate and suggest for a regular 21'st century lifestyle, with lights, TV, internet, an a frig/freezer, you'll need ~4-5 kWh of power per day.  More if you want to run big power tools, or maybe air-conditioning in the summer.  What power levels are you shooting for?

Will you have a trencher to dig down the required depth to go below the frost line?  What is that depth in your area?  Is the water in the creek actually flowing year round, even in January?  How rocky is the ground there.  My personal experience with areas that far north is that they are covered with glacial till, and EXTREMELY rocky.  Will you be able to trench the full 800' length?  I think you will need to answer each and every one of these questions first before you can even start to design a system.

Hi Mark;
As Michael mentioned, we need more information about your water supply.
How much water is available to use?  
Can it fill a 4" pipe continuously?
Do you have a plan for the water after the hydro?

Using any hard pipe to move water requires a level base, bedding with sand is a common method in rocky ground.
An advantage to using hard piping is that no internal pipe connectors to allow debris buildup.
Some plastic piping is not suitable for drinking water.
Another pipe option is the flexible black poly pipe.
It commonly comes in 300' rolls and is easier to bury in uneven ground.
A disadvantage is it uses internal pipe connectors that can catch debris.

I have lived with a micro-hydro since 1996.
I have 2200' of 1.5" 200psi black poly pipe with 300' of vertical drop.
I have 125 psi at the freeze-less hydrant in the yard.
My system is a high head and low flow as I only have 3-4 gpm from my spring.
I have a one nozzle permanent magnet Pelton wheel from Harris Hydro with a stainless steel paddle wheel.
Depending on the size nozzle I use, I receive 8 - 14 amps @ 12 volts 24-7
My waste water from the hydro is plumbed underground to water livestock (pigs) and then into a draw to create a small wetland for the wild game.

Unlike solar, a micro hydro requires a constant diversion voltage control, heating or lighting are common "dumps" for the excess power you generate.

So there are plenty of things to consider when thinking about installing a hydro system.

Solar power is an easier and less expensive option in many cases.









 
 

Hi sorry this forum stuff is very new to me. I will try to provide more information.  The green pvc pipe that I'm referring to is green in color . Sells at homedepot for about $27.00 dollars per 10 foot length. It is described as sewer pipe . It just seems like an affordable option. I just don't know if it will hold up. I have not done the math as of .yet . But I have a very robust stream about 800 feet away from the area I want the outlet of the micro hydro. It is appropriately 80 feet in elevation and I'm not exactly sure how I can calculate the flow rate. For example if I were to dam up the stream and have the water flowing through say a 4 foot pipe at 4 inch dia. It would probably  fill a 5 gallon bucket up in less then a sec . But I'm not ready to create a dam and I'm not really sure how to measure the flow without having all the water coming out of one source. If anyone has suggestions on how I can measure the flow  I would be grateful. I'm pretty sure I will have enough flow and head to create pretty decent power. My biggest concern is the cost of 4 inch pipe and what pipe I can use. I ran 1.5 inch poly pipe that comes in 100 foot roles for the first 300 feet then I reduced it to 3/4 inch pipe for the remaining 500 hundred feet to get some pressurized water to the garden and sink at the side of the cabin. . That cost me around $900 . So I can only assume that 4 inch pipe from the source to the turbine is going to cost around 4 times that. Plus I think unrolling and lugging that style up to the creek would be a bit tuff compared to 10 foot lengths . So if there is anyone out there that is using some sort of 4 inch pipe that doesn't cost an arm and a leg I'm very open to suggestions.  

I also forgot to say thank you for the great information you guys have provided  already. Thank you very much it is much appreciated.

If I understand you correctly...

You have 80 feet of elevation change over a horizontal distance of 800 feet.
You feel comfortable lugging in 10 lb lengths of 4" x 10' SDR35 green sewer pipe. (about $2.5/ft at Home Depot, so about $2,000)
Big rolls of poly tubing at a larger size than the existing 1.5"/0.75" line you already put in would be cumbersome, heavy and maybe expensive.

I have strong reservations and doubts about this plan.

SDR35 is rated to 46 psi

80 feet of head = 0.433 psi/foot = 35 psi

Not much safety margin for temperature shocks, and especially water hammer effects from opening and closing valves. It may hold pressure  briefly, if every joint is glued perfectly, there are no defects, no scratches from dragging over rocks, etc... until you close a valve too quickly, then boom.

Much better option is SCH40 pressure pipe. Rated to 220 psi, so plenty of safety margin. Its almost twice as expensive.

Head loss over 800 feet might be about 30 feet, best case, in a free flowing pipe (no constriction at the outlet). A joint every 10 feet is not best case. You can test this out by aiming your garden hose straight up. How high does it go? I bet its a lot less than 80 ft.

You can reduce the head loss by restricting the outlet to reduce velocity in the big pipe. Now your power output is significantly less.


Bottom line: 80 feet is not a lot of head, 800 feet is a long expensive pipe.

OK then. We'll thanks for your information.  Perhaps we just won't move forward at all. I was really just asking if anyone has used this type of pipe and if anyone new what the psi of this pipe . Clearly it's not the best solution.  We are working on a budget.  With that said I did ask for any suggestions that could be helpful.  It sounds like you are a bit of an expert in this area . What would you suggest for an ideal solution.  Let's say hypothetically, money was not an issue.  What would you do.
I was also under the impression that 80 feet of head would be more then enough to generate at least 250 to 500 watts an hour. By the sounds of it , I was wrong.

I'm also curious what it is that you have running at your offgrid property.  Head, flow rate ,type of turbine and voltage plus apps created. I'm curious to hear what someone like yourself with so much knowledge has working for him currently.  Perhaps I can learn more with a direct comparison of your system.
Thanks again I do really appreciate the information.  Clearly this is pretty new to us , that why I'm on this forum so I can learn as much as I can before moving forward .  It may turn out that micro hydro is not the best solution.  I also have a fast flowing river about 150 feet away from the cabin .  But there is no elevation. Look forward to hearing any suggestions.  
Thanks .

I have never run into the green pipe.  In general, sewer pipe is normally for very low psi.

Sorry if this wasn't clear I'm directing my last two post to B Beeson.  I honestly do appreciate  everyone s comments.  MR. Beeson seems to think that I don't have enough elevation at 80 feet and if this truly case then I certainly don't want to spend 4 or 5 thousand in pipe to find out that we can't generate 250 watts to 500 watts . Half a kw an hour is more then enough to satisfy our electrical needs .  250 watts would suffice but I think anything less and it just wouldn't be worth it.  So, just to reiterate I have approx. 80 feet in elevation over approximately 800 foot run. I have not calculated the flow rate but it's very strong, easily 5gps or 300 gpm . With those numbers can anyone give me an estimated watts per hour. I also realize that when battery's get charge I will have to dump the excess load .  Using a programmable out on my charge controller to a solid state relay. I'm an electrician with knowledge of PLC's and diversion loads etc. I just don't really know anything about micro hydro .  We are considering doing solar . I would like to have both solar and hydro. The problem is where I'm located in Canada , we don't get a lot f sun during the winter months . This stream flows quite well all year long . Unless we get weeks of minus 30 it may slow down . We haven't been getting that cold the past few years . I suspect from global warming but who knows.

Hey Mark;
A fast-flowing river 150' away ...hmmmm
I'm not sure about the rules up there but...
That could have the potential for a floating turbine.
You might look into an A/C turbine rather than a D/C microhydro.
Once your power is A/C you can easily transmit 150' it to your cabin with no batteries needed..

A floating turbine . I don't think I have seen something like that.  I will look around . Do you know the name of any manufacturers or is this something I would need to build myself ? I will definitely look into it .
Thank you.

Mark Macleod wrote:Sorry if this wasn't clear I'm directing my last two post to B Beeson.  I honestly do appreciate  everyone s comments.  MR. Beeson seems to think that I don't have enough elevation at 80 feet and if this truly case then I certainly don't want to spend 4 or 5 thousand in pipe to find out that we can't generate 250 watts to 500 watts .

I'm not an expert at microhydro. Thomas Rubino is, and has posted above with very good info.
I have some experience with solar, but in a much more forgiving latitude - Virginia, 37degN - so my initial reaction to your plan is to compare the expense and difficulty of 800' of water pipe to the same investment in an off-grid solar capable of 500 Watts 24/7. I think the solar comes out ahead in most cases, but the particular details of your situation matter, of course. You have the experience as an electrician to do solar, and save the cost of expert labor in a remote location. I like the idea of multiple sources - hydro, solar, wind - look at Missouri Wind and Solar ( https://windandsolar.com/ ) for all 3, and I've heard from others here that they are happy to offer expert advice.

Back to the initial question - do you have enough flow and head for 300-500 Watts? Yes, without a doubt. The basic equation is Power(Watts) = Head(ft) x Flow(gpm) / 10

Thomas's system above is a good comparison. 2200' of 1.5" poly pipe with 220' of head. His flow rate is source limited, but 1.5" pipe should be able to handle 50gpm. His point about internal connector constriction is crucial. A novice like me might not even think about that at first.

You should be able to get 70 ft (after some friction losses) x 50 gpm / 10 = 350 Watts. This includes a fudge factor for efficiency loses in the turbine, nozzles, etc. Can you get more than 50gpm in that pipe? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe a lot more. Ask the experts at Missouri Wind and Solar.

Next would be the cost of installing 800' of poly pipe. Thomas has the answer to that. How deep for frost protection? Protection from rocks (pipes wiggle and flex when water flows through them. Any rock touching pipe = hole), and several other important know-hows. Ask Thomas.

I wish you all the best as you become an expert at microhydro as well as electrical.

Cool thanks for the response.  It's all in the beginning stages. I'm really just trying to gather as much info as I can before we begin. I really just don't want to spend a bundle of money on something that ends up not working or being more of a headache.  I think you are right and not have any joints or as few as possible would definitely be beneficial.  We will probably  have to suck it up and purchase the large roles of 4inch poly in 100 foot lengths unless it comes in longer lengths. With that being said it's a bit tough to find any supplier that has enough of it at a reasonable price that isn't far away from us. I will keep looking and hopefully come across a good deal. In the mean time I will definitely talk to the wind and solar company that you suggested.  Thanks again for the helpful suggestions.  

Net Power =  1/5 * Efficiency * Head * FlowRate
Net Power = 1/5 * 50% * Head * FlowRate
Net Power =  1/10 * 80ft * FlowRate (in gpm)
(can you share the flow rate of your stream/system, we will need this to determine your energy production, e.g. to make 1000W you would need a flowrate of 125gpm)

Daily Production = 24hr/day * Net Power (Lets suppose that you Net Power is 1000W)
Daily Production = 24hr/day * 1000W
Daily Production = 24kWH/day (this is just about the average energy usuage)

Hydro System
Weir
Filter
Piping
Water while
Turbine
Wires+ Rectifier
Charge Controller
Battery + DumpLoad
Inverter
Will this system be setup for off-grip/backup power?

This sytem would be completely offgrid no grid tie in.
My head is appropriately 80 feet . I have not measured the actual flow rate but it is appropriately
5 gps or 300 gpm . The stream is fairly wide and roughly a foot to a foot and a half deep. I can't really figure out how to determine the actual flow rate without creating a dam and directing all the water through a short piece of 4 inch pipe that flows in to a bucket.  So my flow rate is really just an estimate.  I really don't know the best way of determining an accurate flow rate. If anyone can offer ways of determining the flow rate, it would be great. I would love to combine solar and hydro together,  but I'm not familiar how this would work  . Does any company make a charge controller that can handle two  different voltages from two sources. Other issues I'm not very clear on , are what type of turbine to buy example:  12v 3 phase ac , 24 volt 3 phase ac or 48 volt 3 phase ac. I know with higher voltage thus lower amps would mean I can get away with a smaller gauge wire from turbine to battery shed. Which is apprx 200 feet from propused turbine location. Plus I'm a bit unclear as to the size of inverter to buy. Is bigger better ? Or is a bigger inverter going to consume more power. Does an inverter place a strain on the batteries if there is no load on the inverter. I'm really just at the beginning of this offgrid journey and I'm just trying to gather as much information as I can ,in hopes of preventing major mistakes. So I welcome any and all info. I really appreciate all the helpful suggestions that I have received from this community thus far. Thanks again and I look forward to all new incoming info.
Thanks everyone..

There are some important questions you have not answered yet?  Does the creek have flowing water year-round, even in January?  What is your frost line?  Will you be able to dig a trench deep enough to keep to from freezing in January?  Where exactly in Northern Ontario?  Are you on the shore of Hudson's Bay, or does that mean just North of Toronto?

One other important question right away is why have you not investigated solar yet?  How many sunny days do you get over the winter, and how many sunhours would your location get.  When you say you can get by with 500W of power, do you mean 500W continously over 24hr ( that's 12 kWh) , or just that you will be running 500W loads?  You really need to create an itemized list of what you want to power before you go off and start designing something.

Large high-voltage residential panels are getting dirt-cheap right now.  I've been buying 30V-250W panels for ~50$ recently.  I've listed the parts in other posts about building a 24V or 48V system that will power a whole-house.  Depending on scaling, something very functional can be put together for 1500$, scaling up to 5000$ for a BIG system.  

I'd say a system that could generate ~5kWh in December would cost you ~1600$.  That would be costs in my area.  In your area, the costs might be higher.

I'm fully off-grid, and my 48V solar system can run my 1hp 240VAC well pump 8 hours a day.  With lead-acid batteries, and some sun, you should be able to get through the most frigid weather as long as you maintain a charge on the batteries.

Measuring Flow Rate
* If you measure/share the height and width of a section of the stream, we will now have a given area
* then drop a bottle and see how many seconds it takes to float/travel down that section/lenght, aka it's speed (ft/second)
* we can now get its flow rate = Width (ft) * Height (ft) * Velocity (ft/sec) * 0.85 = cubic feet per second
* GPM = cubic feet per second * 7.481(gallon/ft3) * 60 (second/minute)

Estimated Net Power = 1/5 * Efficiency * Head * Flow
Estimated Net Power = 1/5 * 50% * Head * Flow
Estimated Net Power = 1/10 * 80ft * 300gpm
Estimated Net Power = 1/10 * 24000
Estimated Net Power = 2400W aka 2.4KW
(the net 50% efficiency factors in inverter loss, wire loss, turbine loss, piping loss, etc)

Estimated Daily Production = Net Power * 24Hrs/day
Estimated Daily Production = 2.4KW *24H/day
Estimated Daily Production = 57.6KWH/day
(this should be able to cool&heat your house, make hot water, cook and also provide general electricity, with infloor heating, the house could be 100% electric)

Electrical System
Inverter+Solar Charger Combo = 2 * 12KW = 24KW (240V * 100A) (adds solar + backup generator to the hydro)
Lithium Battery =  Inverter Size = 28KWH = 48V * 600AH (if it's a lead-acid battery it would need to be 10x bigger)
Dump Load = 1.25x Power Production = 1.25x 2400W = 3000W (if the batteries are full the excess power will go here to protect the system)
Dump Load Relay Switch = 48V * 60A+
Hydro Charge Controller = 48V * 60A+
Rectifier = (Changes wild AC to DC)
Wires = 200ft, 10gauge wire, the goal would be to keep voltage drop to 5% or so
Turgo Turbine + Alternator = $3,000 for a 3000W system
Piping = 800ft long, 35psi (80ft head), 300gpm (estimated), 6inch diameter (recommended)
Filter = 200gpm, 6inch outlet, this will help prevent freezing and clogging
Dam/Weir =  How wide and high is the stream that you are trying to dam. I would fill some sand bag with cement and stake them down with rebar, etc

Electrical Loads = Inverter Size
Heat Pump = 4KW and 30KWH/day  (could also heat the house in the winter, in-floor radiant pex-pipe, water temp=95F, floor temp=85F, air temp=75F)
ERV/Humidifier/Kitchen Vent = 1KW and 3KWH/day
Well Pump = 2KW and 2KWH/day
Hot Water Tank = 4KW and 6KWH/day (this is actually part of the heat pump)
Stovetop = 4KW and 4KWH/day
Oven = 4KW and 4KWH/day
Fridge = 1KW and 4KWH/day
Kitchen Appliances = 2KW and 2KWH/day
Dryer = 4KW and 4KWH/day
Washer = 1KW and 1KWH/day
Lights = 1KW and 1KWH/day
PC/TV/etc = 1KW and 1KWH/day
Laptop/Tablets/Phone/Wifi/etc = 1KW and 1KWH/day
(can you share your estimated load, I am sure that a much smaller and cheaper system could be built if thats listed, also the system could be built small and upgraded later)

Heat Pump
Outdoor Stream Piping Loop = 10gpm, 2x 500ft (estimated stream to house distance)
Heat Pump (water to water) = 35F to 95F (in winter heating mode), 70F to 50F (in summer cooling mode)
Radiant Floor Loop = 95F (in the winter, coupled to the heat pump), 75F (in the summer, coupled to the stream piping loop)
Air Handler Loop = 50F (in the summer, coupled to the heat pump, used to control humidity levels)
DHW Loop = 4gpm, 120F (all year, 120F output directly from heat-pump)

Dehydrator Loop = 110F (tied to the DHW loop)
Cool Fermentor = 60F (tied to the Stream Loop or Air Handler Loop)

Mark Macleod wrote: Does any company make a charge controller that can handle two  different voltages from two sources.

Midnight Solar has options for their Classic series of controllers.  I don't know if they have a hydro version, but they do have a wind version, called the "Clipper".  That is one place to research further

Mark Macleod wrote: I'm a bit unclear as to the size of inverter to buy. Is bigger better ? Or is a bigger inverter going to consume more power. Does an inverter place a strain on the batteries if there is no load on the inverter.

As a general rule of thumb, I'd recommend purchasing an inverter that is 2-3 times the size of your single largest load.  For example, my 240V well-pump requires about 2100W to run, so I am powering it with a Schneider XW+ 6848 inverter.  It works flawlessly.

If you select too small an inverter, it will simply squak, and shut down.  Too big an inverter, and your background consumption goes up.  As a general rule of thumb, designing for too big works better than designing for too small.

Background consumption is the power the inverter consumes just being left on.  The size of the consumption is proportional to two things, the size of the inverter, and the quality of the design.  The best inverters have the lowest consumption.  My 6848 consumes ~30W/hr, or about 720Wh per day.  Cheaper Chinese-designed inverters have much higher consumptions, in the range of 50-200W/h.  The "All in One" (AiO) designs are the worst.  They are built cheaply, sometimes out of used, recycled electronics, and have the highest backgrounds.

34.4 ft pipe head loss based on this calculator:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/friction-loss

80 - 34.4 ft = 45.6 ft head remaining

2567 W hydraulic power
* 60% efficient turbine & generator
  = 1540 Watts out

For a “pump as turbine” type system,
the approx. pump specs to look for (near its efficient operating range) would be:
25 ft head
200 gpm

Mike Philips wrote:
34.4 ft pipe head loss based on this calculator:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/friction-loss

80 - 34.4 ft = 45.6 ft head remaining

Bad pipeline = 57% efficiency vs 95%
Bad turbine+gen = 55% efficiency vs 72%

Mike your numbers are showing me one big thing, don't skimp on the pipeline, it's the heart of the system. It has a 50yr+ lifetime, very hard to change once burried and just super labor intensive esp as we get older.  Where as switching out a free and horrible "pump in reverse that makes electricity" for a high efficency "turbine+generator" is so much easier.

Typical hydro-electric system efficiency numbers:
• Penstock (pipeline) efficiency = 95%
• Nozzle and runner efficiency = 80%
• Permanent-magnet alternator efficiency = 90%
• Wiring and control efficiency = 95%
• Charge controller efficiency = 95%
• Inverter efficiency = 95%
• Round-Trip Lithium Battery efficiency = 85%
Total Efficiency =  0.95 × 0.80 × 0.90 × 0.95 × 0.95 × 0.95 × 0.85   = 0.50 aka 50%
(Only some of the electricty goes thru the battery the rest is used directly by the load as the turbine generates it)

Why is the calculated loss in your pipeline/penstock so high aka 34.4ft vs just 4ft?
What diameter pipe did you use, a tiny 1inch or a 6inch?
What type of pipe did you use, flexible poly pipe or PVC?
What ideas do you have to reduce the loss?

Your turbine+generator efficiency is listed as 60% vs the usual of 72%.
What combination of turbine and generator did you use?
Do you have any ideas on how those numbers can be improved?

So the formula for net power is
Net Power = 1/10 * Head * Flow
Net Power = Efficiency (50%) * 1/5 * Head * Flow
Net Power = Efficiency (50%) * 1/5 * 80ft * 300gpm
Net Power = Efficiency (50%) * 4800W of Hydraulic Power
Net Power = 2400W

Daily Power = 2400W * 24Hrs
At roughly 60KWH  of electricity per day in addition to an exisiting 12gpm pipe to the house that can power a geo-thermal heatpump to make make a 100% hydro-electric house, and then lots of grants/tax credit/zero-interest loan for a heat pump-heating and or 3 solar panel - microhydro renewable energy, I would hit the go button on this project.

S Bengi,
I used the numbers above 5 gal/s through 4”D x 800’ L , HDPE (aka black irrigation line) is 34.4 ft head loss.

PVC is 35.25 ft head loss.

If you want 95% efficiency that’s 4 ft head loss (out of 80 ft). A lower flow of 1.55 gal/s through the same pipe would do it.

5 gal/s through 6” ID pipe would be 4.89 ft head loss or 93.9% efficient.

4.5 gal/s through 6” ID pipe would be 4.0 ft head loss or 95% efficient.

My 60% efficiency # was about half way between your 72% and 50%, and arrived at in a similar way.

I think a 4” pipe is okay if that’s all the budget allows.  Either way, I was only crunching the numbers to see how it might work.

2400W aka 60KWH/day Bankers Package

$700 ERV
$500 Misc
$2,000 Humidity Fan-Coil Loop = 2ton * $1000/ton
$1,000 Floor Loop = 1000ft * $1/sqft
$1,000 Hot Water Tank Loop = 50gal * $20/gal
$4,000 Heat Pump = 4000W * $1/W
$800 Cooktop+Oven
$6,000 Inverter+Solar Charger Combo = 12KW * $500/KW
$4,000 Lithium Battery = 14KWH * $285/KWH
subtotal = $20,000
(this could be done years later after the main micro hydro system is installed, but with this added, the system could be 100% renewable powered)

$1,000 Solar Panel + Rack = 4 * 250W * $1/W
$6,000 Inverter+Solar Charger Combo = 12KW * $500/KW
$4,000 Lithium Battery = 14KWH * $285/KWH
$300 Misc
subtotal = $11,300
(I added the solar just in case you wanted to apply for some grants/etc, in theory the system could be smaller at 1st saving some more money)

$800 Hydro Charge Controller = 60A * $10/A
$60 Dump Load = 2* 3kW * $10/kw
$40 Dump Load Relay Switch = 2* 60A * $/A
$100 Rectifier = 100A * $1/A
$1,200 Wires @ 6gauge 120V-dc, direct burial = 200ft * $6/ft
$3,500 Turgo Turbine + Alternator = 3500W * $1/W
subtotal = $5,700
(the noozle+turbine+alternator+controller section of the system, you could technically get a smaller turbine and upgrade later)

$8,000 Piping 6inch = 800ft * $10/ft
$3,000 Filter 6inch = 300gpm * $10/gpm
$2,000 Dam ??? 1.5high, how wide???
subtotal = $13,000
(I really recommend doing the piping correct the 1st time, and not skimp, for grant purposes you could claim that this is part of the heat-pump outdoor loop)

Total = $50,000

• Gross Power (1/5 * 80ft * 300gpm) @ 100% = 4800W
• Penstock (pipeline) efficiency @ 95% = 4560W
• Nozzle and runner efficiency @ 80% = 3648W
• Permanent-magnet alternator efficiency @ 90% = 3283W
• Wiring and control efficiency @ 95% = 3119W
• Charge controller efficiency @ 95% = 2963W
• Inverter efficiency @ 95% = 2815W
• Round-Trip Lithium Battery efficiency @ 85% = 2400W

The $50,000 system listed above is highly dependent on your flow rate, if your flow rate was only 150gpm, we couldn't run your HVAC + hot water tank off the system saving $20,000, the turbine would be be cheaper saving $2000, piping+filter would be 1/2 the price saving $6000. Total price would be $22,000 vs $50,000

500W aka 12KWH/day Off-Grid Package

Stated Daily Energy Usage = 24hrs * 500W = 12KWH/day
Stated Net Power Needed = 500W = 1/10 * 80ft * 63gpm

$1,600 Inverter = 4KW * $400/KW
$1,450 Lithium Battery = 5KWH * $283/KWH
$150 Misc
subtotal = $3,200

$600 Hydro Charge Controller
$40 Dump Load 2x 600W
$20 Dump Load Backup Switch
$223 Dump Load Controller/Switch
$117 Misc
$600 Wire @ 8gauge 48v-dc, direct burial = 200ft * $3/ft
$1,600 Turgo Turbine + Alternator = 500W * $3.30/W
subtotal = $3,200

$1,600 Piping 3inch Flexible = 800ft * $2/ft
$400 Filter 3inch = 63gpm * $6.35/gpm
$2,000 Dam ??? 1.5high, how wide???
subtotal = $4,000

Total = $10,400


Estimated Electrical Loads
Fridge = 1KW and 4KWH/day
Kitchen Appliances = 2KW and 2KWH/day
Dryer = 1KW and 1KWH/day
Washer = 1KW and 1KWH/day
Lights = 1KW and 1KWH/day
PC/TV/etc = 1KW and 1KWH/day
Laptop/Tablets/Phone/Wifi/etc = 1KW and 1KWH/day
(can you share your estimated load)

S Bengi,

I agree that the 60-70% efficiency of small centrifugal pumps isn’t great. Positive displacement pumps seem much better. Piston and plunger pumps are 90% efficient. To work as a generator, the valve arrangement could resemble that of a steam engine. (Also interesting are diaphragm, Archimedes screw, and rope pumps.)

DIY links:

TKOR, o-ring seal PVC piston pump
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vaho7JSVS1I


Make a plastic piston
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SC2AcVhhegU?&t=5m45s


4” Wood piston
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PGeGcraJFIk


Rope pump
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j2ZKNynTICU?&t=3m0s

Piping and Power
If all you need is 240W - 500W and not the full 2400W that 80ft of head and 300gpm of flow could potentially provide.
You can now reduce the head and thus the lenght of pipe and also reduce the flow rate and thus the diameter of the pipe.
You could do 300gpm in 6inch pipe over a 100ft distance with a projected 10ft of head giving you 300W of power.
Then every year as money comes in you could add an extra 100ft of pipe (aka 10ft of head and 300W of power), and slowly expand your system over ~ 8yrs.
(because 800ft of piping give you 80ft of head, I am going with the estimate of 100ft of pipe = 10ft of head but I know that in the real world there isn't a nice, smooth, linear gradient over the entire area)

Creek vs River
Lets say the river has a nominal head of 2ft and a FlowRate of say 3,000gpm vs the creek 300gpm. You could still produce alot of power.
Net Power = 1/10 * Head * FlowRate
Net Power = 1/10 * 2ft * 3,000gpm
Net Power = 1/10 * 6,000
Net Power = 600W (14KWH/day)
(it would be relatively safe to build a 2ft sandbag dam across the river. the sand bags would be filled with concrete mix with rebar staking it into the riverbed. Also no piping would really be needed)

Do you plan to run your system in the winter?

If so:
Do you plan to bury the pipe deep enough to not freeze?
Does the bottom of the creek stay open all winter?  It is common here for small streams to freeze solid to the bottom, then water to flow over the ice.  sometimes that will happen several times causing the creek to be flowing on top of ice several feet above the creek bed and sometimes even elevated above the surrounding ground level.

Will you have a way to prevent debris washing into the pipe or blocking it?  If so the method has to work winter and summer.  It is much harder to keep it serviceable in winter.

Even if your pipe is buried below the frost line it eventually  has to come out of the ground at the end.  How will you keep that from freezing up?

Small hydro is great in the summer, but it can be very difficult to keep it working in deep winter.

I’m a little late to the party here but I just wanted to chime in. I have roughly the same measurements you have. 300-500+ gpm and 60 ft of head. I have two custom turbines made by Spencer Langston and I can produce right at 1.5 kw continuous. So, from reading your posts, that would certainly cover your needs.  You can check out my system build under “ new guy with hydro project” I would just leave a k7n but not sure how.
As far as the pipe I highly suggest looking on Facebook marketplace. I found 1,000ft of 8” schedule 80 pvc for 5k . It was a bear to work with and bury but it was what I needed and it worked great. Please update us on your progress

Shawn Ces wrote:I’m a little late to the party here but I just wanted to chime in. I have roughly the same measurements you have. 300-500+ gpm and 60 ft of head. I have two custom turbines made by Spencer Langston and I can produce right at 1.5 kw continuous. So, from reading your posts, that would certainly cover your needs.  You can check out my system build under “ new guy with hydro project” I would just leave a k7n but not sure how.
As far as the pipe I highly suggest looking on Facebook marketplace. I found 1,000ft of 8” schedule 80 pvc for 5k . It was a bear to work with and bury but it was what I needed and it worked great. Please update us on your progress

I live in Maine, but for a hydro project myself I just had brand new HDPE 4 inch pipe quoted at 600 linear feet with rental of the HDPE bonding unit at $4800, so you got a really good deal for twice the diameter, and 400 feet longer.

You are also getting a pretty good power factor on your set-up. I always figured 100 cubic feet per second of flow nets about 2000 watts of power. A lot of other factors go into that, but that is easy math and typically is pretty accurate.