Here is what's so bad about adding Nitrogen

I'm simple so this is the simple answer. If the soil is rich in organic matter adding nitrogen will allow the microbes to consume all the organic matter and leave you with a more mineral soil. If you're starting out with pure mineral soil with very little organic matter it might be okay to add a little bit of nitrogen to get things going. But if you have lots of humus you will just ruin your soil's capacity to hold nutrients. I think it's okay to add a little bit on one plant here or a plant there but don't go spreading it on your whole farm unless it's a sandbox or a clay brick. Losing the organic matter can also change the pH of the soil.

Agree adding N will burn up organic matter in the soil. The flip side is it will increase above-ground organic matter in the growing plants, so on really poor soil it can help long term to use some added N to get things started. If you don't like inorganic fertilizers, a high-N organic like manure will work just as well, and add organic matter too.

What I think is worse than adding N, is tillage. Plowing destroys soil organic matter.

Here's something I just found which shows that at work.
(below is a copy/paste)

These samples belong to the same soil type and have been in corn-bean rotation for over 20 years, but their treatment was very different!!!.
The land on the left has not been plowed or fertilized with anhydrous ammonia for more than 20 years and has benefited from a rye cover crop.
The land on the right was plowed annually and fertilized with anhydrous ammonia in the fall.
This photo was taken about 2 minutes after the samples were immersed in water.
The plowed land practically “exploded” as soon as it hit the water. Repeated plowing of the soil has destroyed its structure, removing interstitial space and the biological “glue” that helps hold the soil together, leading to its disintegration.
In contrast, with minimal soil disturbance, the no-tilled soil had excellent porosity and high biological activity, giving it a healthy structure that could withstand water shock.
In less than five minutes, the plowed land disappeared completely, while the unplowed land remained almost intact.
We wanted to see how long it would last and continued adding water (to compensate for evaporation) for several weeks.
We stopped after 6 weeks, during which time the no-till soil sample was still 95% intact.

I broadfork, then hoe an area to be planted. I also hoe the weedy/grassy aisles and disperse into the bed as extra mulch. It kind of feels like plowing and tilling to me when I hear "no-till". If I did nothing tho, the seeds would either be eaten by birds/animals, or lost in the grass and weeds. That is my experience.

Maybe certain crops can grow like that, but seeds and transplants I have tried from peppers, tomatoes, radishes, carrots etc have been mostly lost or stunted that way. Pumpkins, peas, beans, and corn seem to "kind of" handle that but if I prep an area like I said above, everything generally does better earlier?

So, maybe the broadfork and hoe arent as destructive as a rototiller or moldboard plow? The word tillage gets confusing. I watch crops grow very very well at the farm I work at which we use a broadfork then power harrow on a walk-behind tractor regularly. The aisles are also rotary plowed into the beds every couple years. My personal crops are lucky to do 1/2 as well as there as I do a more primative natural/local technique - but sure there are other things going on there too like an organic fertilizer regimen including pelletized alfalfa and Re-Vita Pro...which does have nitrogen in it. At my place its leaves, woodchips, and weeds only.

Soil tests over the last 8 years there have shown organic matter to increase at the farm I work at (cant remember the exact % but I can get that info.) While essentially adding some N, and doing some tillage?? It's a very successful market garden so what gives? I have never done a soil test at my place.

There are probably a million factors - including past use...my place was a tractor compacted hayfield and thiers was cow pasture, for one.

Jeff, I'm guessing you talking about artificial nitrogen fertilizer?

I deliberately add nitrogen in all sorts of ways, but it's in an adjustable organic matrix rather than "crack cocaine for plants."

But with giant investment companies buying up farmland (the last and only stable, reliable investment left), the fallout is that nobody gives a flying f*** about maintaining the deep quality, the tilth of the soil itself. Family farms are still an exception, sometimes.

I get why farming leases are increasingly a mining operation that trend toward hydroponics -- a farm is a business of pretty large scale now and it's  difficult to make a living while building soil depth. I guess that's what you're getting at. It worries me, but I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.

Wow, this topic has a lot of "it depends" in it. Things to take into consideration up front ….
… the weather
… the soil type
… the crops being grown
…cover crops or mulch

I personally have farmed/gardened in 4 locations in my area, all within a 10 mile radius. And I have had 4 completely different experiences. Each location had different weather and soil type. All had soil extremely low in fertility and organic matter to start out. All 4 had very poor moisture retention.

Growing grass oriented crops (I’ll include grassy weeds in this discussion), was no problem in 3 locations. The fourth, which had been grubbed a few years earlier, even had difficulty supporting weeds.

Land #1 & #2– I aggressively tilled in truckloads of compost with minerals, and kept soil covered in mulch.  In 3 years managed to have soil capable of producing abundant vegetable crops. Land #1 I continue to till in compost between crops and it had been in food production for almost 20 years.  3 years ago I stopped the tilling of compost into land #1, and while it still produces food, the production has gone way down. And the soil has become hardened, with grassy weeds invading.  Land #2 I converted to fruit production where the soil was mulched to control weeds and retain moisture, and nutrients were added via compost/manure teas. Land#2 gives the visual appearance on the surface of doing better, but the soil is now too dense to drive a fork into it more than 2-3 inches.    Personal observation—-these soils are too young to be considered fertile enough to thrive on their own without some sort of outside additions. And the tropical environment breaks down the organic matter too quickly to maintain long term no-till for vegetable crops. Oh, it will work for tropical grasses and brush, but not veggies. And it will work for food forest type production if the soil is kept constantly mulched with organic material,  but not annual veggies.

Land #3 - I worked this area for 5-6 years, using it for seed production. It was never rototilled due to the high amount of rocks. In order to get anything other than grasses and brush to grow, large amounts of compost/manure teas were needed to be used in conjunction with deep mulch. Producing veggies was challenging on this land. The soil did not retain moisture. And the soil remained deficient  in certain minerals. Nitrogen retention was poor. In 5 years it improved little. Without  incorporating compost, it simply did not improve.

Land #4 - this land literally has no rocks and is deficient in all sorts of plant nutrients. Partly due to no rocks of any sort, drainage is a problem. And with virtually no organic matter, moisture retention is abysmally poor. I am presently experimenting with no-till on this land. One large section (3 acres) has been covered in weedblock material. Soil nutrients are applied via teas. Another section, about 1/2 acre, is being kept mulched with grass clippings and additional nutrients supplied via teas. I am just now preparing to take half of this area and convert it to my "till in abundant compost between each crop" method.           The acres under weedblock are producing well, but require monthly liquid feeding. No organic material is otherwise being added to the soil. So frankly, I cannot say that this form of no-till is improving the soil. Plant nutrients are there, but without the fibrous organic material or mulch,  soil health is lacking.     On the 1/2 acre garden, it is very early into the no-till experiment. I got so-so results on the first crop grown. What will be interesting will be what happens over the next 3 months where I will be rototillering in compost in part of the garden in order to compare the crops and soil with the no-till section.

In my own personal experience and observation, on my own lands of varying soil types and weather, and my own varying crops, I conclude that in some situations the soil benefits from the addition of nutrients, be it minerals, organic materials, N-P-K. It’s not the addition of these items, but the imbalance of them causes issues. Too little results in poor production, while too much results in problems too.

It would be wise to avoid blanket statements when it comes to permaculture, because situations vary so wildly. What works for one crop, one location may not work for the other.

Personally, since I want to both produce plenty of food while stewarding the land, I will continue to incorporate compost and nutrients as needed.

By the way, in my own observation of corn/bean rotation, there is not enough crop residue for it to be wildly successful for no-till for many soil and weather types (not unless the field is excessively weedy, which of course would then impact crop yield). It would be a special, already good soil that could support that rotation for decades while actually improving the soil at the same time.

This thread reminds me of the reasons to go with something simple for adding nitrogen.

Many folks keep running out to buy chemically made fertilizer that'll end up ruin the environment in the long run. Urine provide more nitrogen that help plants such as tomatoes and have did well since I've used some, as have corn which is a nitrogen lover and other crops.

https://permies.com/t/187485/permaculture/pee-fertilizer-safely-benefit-permaculture#1500747

https://permies.com/t/12683/talk-urine

The longer I think about that photo of the two soil samples, the more it pisses me off. It is really deceiving the new gardeners. They do not have enough experience to ask questions, and thus conclude that it’s bad to add nitrogen. its the deception that pisses me off.  Excuse me, but a whole lot of background information is missing from those pictures. So how about we try to. Fill in the blanks. I’ll point out some, but please chime in if you see others,

As I’ve said, it’s not the adding of any particular nutrient that is bad. It’s the upsetting the balance, the ratios. So simply stating that "…bad about adding nitrogen" is deceptive and misinforms newbies. One of the goals of permie.com is to educate newcomers, not to deceive them.

How about we look at possible mitigating factors. Things like the use of cover crops/mulch,organic additives (highly important), Differences in the type of farm equipment being used and techniques, plus the timing of sowing/weed control/harvesting. Plant population per acre. Yield per acre. Soil type at the start. How and where was soil sample taken. How was sample treated.

I agree that adding organic material to the soil much improves soil quality, and that annual plowing without the addition of organic material will eventually degrade it. Adding nitrogen under to right circumstances can improve soil, while lack of nitrogen will degrade it. And have we looked at the type of nitrogen? Not all nitrogen is the same, of course. Nitrogen source is very important.

Yes, the photo and accompanying report disturbs me. It smells of a typical Facebook scam job. I initially saw it on Facebook but skipped past it, chalking it up to the usual biased, slanted misinformation so often found on social media. There is a lot of such photos on Facebook—-tauting supposed huge harvests off of small immature plants, and that sort of thing. But to see it posted on permie.com as a truism has shaken my gardening soul. What has shaken me the most is that permie.com is now offering the same slanted misinformation as seen on Facebook. So I do feel that I need to say something about it. Permie.com is far more classier, far more informative than Facebook.

Personally I am not afraid to add nutrients, be it nitrogen or not, to soil. But I also consider the other factors that will affect the outcome.

Ok, I’ve gotten that off my chest for now. I’ve had my gardening students look at the photo and post. I’ve asked them to think it out so that they don’t get lead astray.